Cant make up my mind.. Summoner, Cavalier, Or Alchemist..


Advice


Sorry for making all these posts..

So, It is looking increasingly more unlikely we will make it out of this dungeon with the entire party. The dungeon was made by a random dungeon creator tool the GM used and was designed for 5 players with 2 animal companions. Exept the Druid left the group so we had to try and deal with the dungeon with 4 party members and 1 companion. Then the gates locked and we are trapped inside untill we find a way to unlock them.. It went well enough at first, Then a Xill got our rogue.. We got her back and my cleric managed to remove the eggs. Then we faced a four armed gorilla that mauled my cleric from 53 HP to 6.. He healed up and we continued, And found another Xill (I think thats what they are called atleast) And it brought my cleric down to 9 HP before we killed it. And then we fought a large swarm of earth elementals, I think 6 or 7 of them and when the last one died the Rangers animal companion was dead, The Rogue was at negative health, So was the cleric, And the Investigator had just barley survived. And we still arent out..

Anyways since things are looking dark for us, I keep pondering what class to make next and I just cant make up my mind.. I am currently pondering a Summoner (Combines two things I love. Being a magic user, And having a minion.. xD) A Cavalier (Knight in shining armour! Probably going Halfling for a wolf mount) Or a Alchemist (This class just seems like so much fun, And I could share formulae with the Investigator!)


Given that your party has issues staying alive, it sounds like you may need some full caster support.

Of the options listed I have only played Alchemist which I very much enjoy. There are a lot of good options for going into melee or staying at range depending on preference.

Maybe go for Preservationist if you want to add summoning, or Beastmorph/Vivisectionist if you want to jump into melee.

Either way get a tumor familiar (mauler or protector archetypes work very well)


From the sounds of it their party died because they were a man and a half down on what they should have had.

I sec d the alchemist vote such a fun flexible class.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

From the sounds of it their party died because they were a man and a half down on what they should have had.

I sec d the alchemist vote such a fun flexible class.

Fair point, we don't know what the other 2 members of the party are playing and who will be replacing the druid (if anyone), but losing a druid and a cleric is going to be a huge blow to most party's ability to stay alive.


Ranger and a rogue were mentioned I believe

The thing with the alchemist is it's almost impossible to make a party in which they aren't useful in some permiatation, skill monkey, buff caster, rogue type, range damage dealer, brute str fighter.

EDIT: summoners are very strong for what's it's worth but I kinda feel dirty suggesting them.


All three are good options.

You might get some eye-rolls playing a Small Cavalier (they are seriously overplayed); and you need the GM's permission to use an unusual (aka Cool) mount. I've recently become quite fond of Cavaliers, I plan to make one the next time I have the opportunity to build a Martial.

Alchemists can also be a Companion class if you trade almost everything cool about them for it (Promethean Alchemist), Their Homunculus can use your extracts and has a better stat block than you do, so you might as well be playing a Construct with a personal potion-making cohort. :P

I am quite fond of the Unchained Summoner, who else gets a disposable companion and 7+ 9th level spell-like abilities per day as their capstone? I actually like the flavor of the various Eidolon Subtypes. Currently I'm playing a Fey-Caller; who is admittedly probably the weakest kind of Summoner available because their Eidolon doesn't make a good beat-stick.
In a similar vain, the Spiritualist seems pretty cool, as Companion classes goes; getting a more general purpose list of healing spells than the Summoner does, but less appealing class features to me.


We currently have a Cleric (Me), A Lizardfolk Ranger who is melee and has the same AC as me and who's companion just died, A Catfolk Rogue who can melee and shoot, And a Ratfolk Investigator who is not too good in combat but is the brains of our operation. The Druid is probably nto getting replaced as his player left the group.

And nobody died yet, We just got very very very close to it and I'm not sure we will last much longer in the dungeon.

If I go cavalier, I want to be small cus small can ride a wolf. If I go summoner, It wont be unchained because our GM has banned the unchained stuff (But he likes regular summoner and is all for it) Alchemist just seems like much fun! I did look at Spiritualist but dang they seem complicated..


Merellin wrote:


If I go cavalier, I want to be small cus small can ride a wolf. If I go summoner, It wont be unchained because our GM has banned the unchained stuff (But he likes regular summoner and is all for it) Alchemist just seems like much fun! I did look at Spiritualist but dang they seem complicated..

Banning Unchained in favor of the original Summoner is weird, but hey, it's his game. Alchemists are indeed fun.

One possibility for your Cavalier - a Giant gecko. With an appropriate saddle you can ride across walls and ceilings, laughing at pits and Black Tentacles all the while.


NEW CLASS: CAVONERMIST!


While I love the Alchemist might I suggest a Spiritualist. Their Phantoms are on par with an Eidolon but the spells are what make the class better then a Summoner. The spells are more Divine like then a Summoner'. The Phantom are pretty cool in theme and abilities as well. I think the class is what you might like. The spells are psychic which may make them seem weird by how they are described and cast. The rules for them seem complicated and weird at first glance but they really are not at all.


Merellin wrote:
If I go summoner, It wont be unchained because our GM has banned the unchained stuff...

Yeah that is just plain funky... but to be fair I can't stand the original Summoner. So I was glad to ban all of the original classes replaced by Unchained (except for the Barbarian, hated the unchained barbarian). Although I do allow Unchained Summoner's to use the Original Eidolon Rules if they take one of the old archetypes that changes the eidolon in a manner incompatible with the Unchained Summoner.


I'd say no to the cavalier. Not because the cavalier is bad as such, but rather the other two options are so good. The alchemist can fill just about any role with the right archetype and if you really want to have a mount then you can use the eidolon which can take any form you want. If the 'knight in shining armour' imagery is particularly appealing to you then go synthesist summoner archetype and wear your eidolon as your suite of shining armour. Except it's armour that's 16ft tall, can teleport, cast spells and be immune to fire. And also has tentacles.

Dark Archive

Merellin wrote:
If I go summoner, It wont be unchained because our GM has banned the unchained stuff (But he likes regular summoner and is all for it)

Do me a favor. Place your open palm on the screen. Now pretend I'm high fiving you through the internet. Give your GM a brofist when you find the time.

While acknowledging my monumental bias, I still strongly recommend the summoner. As your GM is capable of throwing difficult battles at you, a functionally immortal companion may mean the difference between success and... well... situations like this. Your Summon Monster spell-like can provide more emergency aid, and since your party is lacking a dedicated arcane caster, the OG summoner's admitedly unbalanced spell list can fill in.

The alchemist is a strong second favorite, though. Traditionally, their playstyles have a somewhat binary split between Hulk and Mad Bomber, but there's a wide range of fun little tricks, mutations, and bottled sorta-spells to build for both function and flavor.

Can't recommend cavalier, though. The chasis is solid and Orders are great built-in roleplay, but its usual playstyle involves being saddled (hur hur) with a clunky companion that has no dynamic movement and doesn't always fit in crampt dungeons. Plus, GMs have the strangest natural aversion to allowing them into places.

Seriously; I have a character that summons a literal devil to walk around with him, and as long as we're not going to Smitecon 2017 down in Paladinville, there's no problem. But as soon as Mr Ed wants to trot into any place with a roof and at least a couple of standing walls? Nope. If you want to play one but you're still on the fence, try some kind of mounted Summoner instead.


Been discussing with my group and GM. The Rangers player says if his ranger dies, He will make a Gnoll Ninja, And the Rogues player says if his Rogue dies he will probably make some kind of caster, Psychic or Sorcerer. And the Investigator said she will look when it get to it. Going by that I might end up picking a Cavalier, For the full BAB and ability to take damage.. (Or maybe a Synthesist Summoner as the GM sugested. But leaning towards the Cavalier right now)

I hope to one day try all three classes as all three seem fun. But if my cleric dies, I might go for a Halfling Cavalier of the Order of the Paw, Riding a Wolf. ^_^


Why ban unchained? Does he hate rogues and monks xD

Anyway with that party composition a cavalier might be a good shout although if your GM is all about dungeons mounted combat might become a pain.


I dont know why he banned unchained, I think he said it made rogues too close to D&D 5th edition and he dident like that, Not sure if there is any other reason.

And I dont think it will be too hard to be cavalier since I'l be playing a small halfling with a medium sized wolf, Picking the +2 CON and +2 DEX over the large size at level 7 keeping me small and mobile and fitting aswell as everyone else! But I do want to try and build him so he can handle combat even if he cant charge, Like if he gets locked into melee..


What a weird objection.

Anyway pack flanking + outflank should cover you for when you can't charge, pretty much always having a +4 to hit when mounted and critting provoking for your mount should be pretty strunk. Might even be worth carry a keen cutlass/rapier/scimitar/falchion/Estoc for when you can't charge.


I was thinking of having a lance for charging, A sword of some sort for when I cant charge, And maybe a sling for when I need to hit something from a distance (Never know when you need to throw a stone at someone)I even managed to think up a short backstory for him!


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

What a weird objection.

Anyway pack flanking + outflank should cover you for when you can't charge, pretty much always having a +4 to hit when mounted and critting provoking for your mount should be pretty strunk. Might even be worth carry a keen cutlass/rapier/scimitar/falchion/Estoc for when you can't charge.

Hunter is a better choice if you want to go for teamwork feats as it's always on.


True but the OP wants to be a cavalier I'm just suggesting something that might help for when he can't charge


Fair point. Getting a flying mount in place of the wolf could help with that as well.


The problem with flying mounts are, They arent wolves.. xD I just realy love wolves, Thats why I want a halfling riding a wolf as my cavalier ^_^ I tend to not go for the best options.. I just pick what seems fun, While trying to not be useless.. xD


Spiritualist?


Merellin wrote:
The problem with flying mounts are, They arent wolves.. xD I just realy love wolves, Thats why I want a halfling riding a wolf as my cavalier ^_^ I tend to not go for the best options.. I just pick what seems fun, While trying to not be useless.. xD

Have you considered a Construct Rider Alchemist? You lose mutagen (so you'll probably focus on a Mad Bomber build) and have a reduced number of extracts, but in exchange you get a Construct Mount (which can have the form of a wolf for small characters). Being able to craft other constructs is also pretty nice. So you get a bit of all three classes: a tough, non-standard Companion like a Summoner, a wolf-like mount like a small Cavalier, and alchemy.

It's almost JosMartigan's Cavonermist. ;)


I'l look into the Construct Rider. I struggle so hard to make up my mind on things.. And when I think I have made up my mind, My mind shifts shortly after making me decide on something else.. Right now, I'm considering some durable full BAB class that can deal and take damage, But also help outside combat like being the partys face..

I like the Paladin mechanicaly, But I have read so many horror stories that I worry if i'l manage it..

I would like to thank everyone who has been kind and helpful and have responded here, And appologize for being so indesisive (How ever it is spelled..)..


Have never played a Alchemist but the ones I've seen played have all been crazy good at what they do.

I personally like the Hunter (Advance class guide) over the Cavalier.

While the Hunter isn't as 'martial' over the Cavalier, the Hunter is more 'flexible' in the stuff he can do compared to the Cavalier. Plus the Hunter gives you access to most of the cure line of spells that druids have.

I have very mixed feeling on the Summoned. Have seen way too many of the original class Summoner dominate a Pathfinder table. There's just too many ways they can destroy a DMs encounter with their summoned creatures.


Of those three options, the Alchemist is the best designed, most versatile, and best balanced option.

The summoner is too easy to make awful and too easy to make way too good (Unchained is a lot better here) and the Cavalier is just another limited martial when you can't get a charge lined up.

I agree that Hunter could be a viable alternative to the Cavalier.


How about a halfling summoner who rides their wolflooking eidolon? Halflings have good stats for a summoner, and being small is good for caster types.


*facepalms self for not being able to make up mind* So, I discoverd the Brawler, And it seems realy fun, But I also realy like the Alchemist..

Can a Alchemist be durable, And capable of fighting in melee? If so, I might go for the alchemist because they can do so many things, Including making healing potions for the party wich would be super good! Alchemist just seems like pure fun, But I kind of wanna be not too squishy, And capable of hitting things in melee without being too bad at it too..


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Alchemists can be almost impossible to kill if you build them right:
Spontaneous Healing, Healing Touch and Lingering Spirit discoveries can help you survive.

A Protector tumor familiar will have fast healing 5 when attached and provide you an HP battery. If you have them take the extra item slot (hands) familiar feat they can use poisoners gloves to deliver infusions. You could have each glove filled with combined healing extracts for a nice HP boost when needed and have extra pairs of gloves to swap out between combats.

Grand Lodge

^^^ this. Yes they can be good in melee. What you want is good strength + mutagen + heroism. For a two handed power attack build. Or feral mutgen natural weapon build.

Extracts are to buff and utility.


Alchemists are one of the best self-buffers around, and they have mutagens to help out with stats and AC. It's definitely doable.

Master Chymist is also an option for the full natural attack mutagen build, though not required.

Dark Archive

Merellin wrote:
Can a Alchemist be durable, And capable of fighting in melee? If so, I might go for the alchemist because they can do so many things, Including making healing potions for the party wich would be super good! Alchemist just seems like pure fun, But I kind of wanna be not too squishy, And capable of hitting things in melee without being too bad at it too..

I've got an freak show Beastmorph Alchemist and she does a pretty good job of staying alive. As mentioned before, a tumor familiar with the Protector archetype adds a ton of longevity to your character. Couple this with the fact that you have Barkskin and Greater Magic Fang on your formulae list means that you're not having to pay money for a third of your key magic items. Orchid's Drop even means your saves will be really good. Plus, once you get Greater Mutagen, you can set the bonus into Con and have a hit point total that rests somewhere between the Fighter and the Barbarian.

And this is before all of your useful in-combat infusions.

Yeah, you'll do juuuuuust fine.


The only problem with a melee type alchemists is their mutagens usual effect their dump stat. Then if you face off against a creature that can target that, now very low, after mutagen, dump stat, you'll be in a serious world of hurt.


What point buy/attribute rolling are you using? By mid level a vest of stable mutagen can negate it. At lower levels it should still be manageable.


When we make characters we roll for our stats. For our first characters we rolled 4d6 drop the lowest, If the total is under 10 we re-rolled.


That seems reasonable. Your lowest stats shouldn't be so bad that you have to worry about ability score damage/drain bringing you down easily.


Gallant Armor wrote:
That seems reasonable. Your lowest stats shouldn't be so bad that you have to worry about ability score damage/drain bringing you down easily.

Yah...I'm used to point buy, actually favor it because I usually roll crazy (either really low or really high. Dice are 'swingy'), while others always seem to have good dice rolls.

So doing it with 4D6 drop low, and re-roll if under 10 can make for some crazy strong characters.

Verdant Wheel

The Alchemist is one of my absolute favourite classes, and the Construct Rider can make for a grand Cavalier-type anyway.

It can be amazing at range or in melee, and can be good at both. It can heal or buff your party, even with personal-range buffs, and if you specialise in Mutagen discoveries you can basically tailor your stats to the day. You can be a Rogue with sneak-attack or a Cavalier with a mount, or even a substitute Cleric if your party doesn't mind getting healed by way of explosions and stabbing.

Also you get to craft the best assortment of mundane items in the game, so that's pretty fun.


It's hard not to love a Beastmorph/Vivisectionist.


The only major downside is losing out on persistent mutagen. Taking a 2 level dip in Master Chymist to get extra mutagens a day and Extended Mutagen makes up for that (ask GM if sneak attack can progress in place of bombs).

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