Silksworn Occultist Legality Reconsideration Thread Petition Thing


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Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond aka Slothsy

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Dear Pathfinder Society Overpeople,

I am writing this to request that you re-consider the decision not to allow Silksworn Occultists be legal for play. However, I am bad at designing characters and am not able to breakd own power level concerns about this archetype. I'm asking a friend to do this, but I'm sure there's going to be plenty of other Pathfinder Society players who are willing to do this for me. Rather, I'm going to ask for this be allowed on the basis of flavor.

The moment that I saw this archetype, I fell in love. I had in mind a little halfing who dressed in super fancy clothes. He was excited to be small because, you know, "if you're half the size, your clothes can be twice as fancy". I've talked to at least three other people who wanted a silksworn occultist, and they were all drawn to the fancy clothes aspect. We all just want to be fancy people :(

When the AR dropped, I was a bit disappointed. It's not the end of the world. But my experiences are that there's a lot of excitement about this option from people who are interested in it from a character flavor background instead of a mechanics background. It ties in very, very well with Taldan / Sovereign Court shenanigans but it's not limited to that!

Please just reconsider this decision; Sir Barington Flufhat IV would love to exist in PFS form. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't happen, but I think that it would make a number of people very happy.

(SPECULATION AS TO WHY IT WAS BANNED)

The reasons I understand that things don't get allowed into the campaigns all stem from it being potentially harmful. These are:

It's obviously evil/tech-related/other roleplaying elements
It gives out multiple "pets"
It's overpowered (including, but not limited to, overshadowing a base class's niche, pushing the power ceiling too much)
It may interact with rules that I'm not aware of (because there's a lot of books published and unpublished that I haven't gotten to read yet).

I can really respond to the first two; I don't believe this flavor is inappropriate. It doesn't give out multiple pets. I'm bad at character creation/min maxing, so I'll leave it to other people to hash that out. Obviously, I'm not aware of rules that I'm not aware of.

Thanks for your consideration!

Link to the d20PFSRD page for the Silksworn

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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I also was excited for this archetype. Playing a caster fashionista? Sign me up!

This archetype is one that had stories spinning in my head when I read about it. I loved the idea of having a characters magical abilities arise from their fashion-sense. I was imagining the character as an Edna-mode gnome figure with the Combat Advice Feat and all the combat advice being fashion tips.

Edna Mode wrote:

"No capes!"

"I never look back, darling. It distracts from the now."

"Pull-yourself-together! 'What will you do?' Is this a question? You will show him you remember that he is a Pathfinder, and you will remind him who *you* are. Well, you know where he is. Go, confront the problem. Fight! Win!"

I do think that the trade offs it makes are appropriate and balanced. This is not going to be an occultist who can front line very well, but oh! It looks like so much fun!

Rigby, please sign me up for the Silksworn Fashion Gala. I want time on the runway!

Silksworn on Archives of Nethys

Hmm


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I have to imagine that the biggest issue with the archetype is its ability to hide its casting.
The thing is that it does not gain this ability until 12th level. Unless there was someway for an occultist to treat their class level as "higher" (similar to robes of arcane heritage) then this would not see normal society play.

I too really like this archetype and would like to see it added to the AR.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I was also very confused to see this archetype not make the cut! I looked at it closely when I first got my hands on the book and I was very much hoping I'd get the chance to make one. It's a specialist - it trades away much of the Occultist's defenses and melee combat capability in exchange for increased spellcasting ability, which seems to me the perfect role for an archetype (trading away one feature to specialize in another).

The Silksworn plays like an unconventional wizard - but certainly won't overshadow one. With only six spell levels and a reduced collection of spell schools, this archetype certainly won't be breaking the power curve, but it does add a unique and fun twist on how to play what is one of the most unique and stimulating classes from Occult Adventures.

I feel strongly that it does not present any power concerns and would not impact the balance of gameplay or be disruptive at a PFS table. I fully recognize that sometimes the Additional Resources process goes in waves, erring on the side of "ban now, legalize when we're sure" so I'm hopeful this archetype will be able to find its place in Pathfinder Society in the future. To anyone on the PFS team on the fence about this one, I wholeheartedly support its inclusion as both a player and a GM.

The Exchange

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Silksworn wrote:

The silksworn’s available mental focus is equal to his occultist level + his Intelligence modifier + his Charisma modifier.

Normal: An occultist has a number of points of mental focus equal to his occultist level + his Intelligence modifier

Straight upgrade.

Silksworn wrote:
At 1st level, the silksworn gains access to four implement schools instead of two.

Straight upgrade.

Occultist wrote:
For each implement school he learns to use, he can add one spell of each level he can cast to his list of spells known, chosen from that school’s spell list.

Silksworn has 2 additional spells known of every level he can cast.

Occultist wrote:
Each implement schools also grants a base focus power.

Silksworn has 2 additional focus powers.

Occultist wrote:
In addition, at 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, he learns a new focus power selected from the options granted by all of the implement schools he knows.
She learns 2 additional focus powers each time than normal.
Silksworn wrote:

At 8th level, a silksworn gains a +1 bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks for each magical article of clothing occupying one of his implement schools’ magic item slots.

This ability replaces magic circles.

Trades a near useless ability for a +6 or higher bonus to 2 skills.

Silksworn wrote:

Whenever the silksworn casts a spell, he can attempt a Bluff check opposed by Sense Motive checks from those observing him. Those who fail are unaware of his spellcasting, unless an effect obviously originates from the silksworn.

This ability replaces binding circles.

A mechanic that has been highly avoided because it lets the caster just run rampant replacing an ability which again won't be used.

Silksworn wrote:
A silksworn’s spells are considered arcane spells, not psychic spells, and his spells use verbal and somatic components instead of thought and emotion components.

He can take prestige class options which advance arcane spellcasting for some reason. Certainly creates more options.

In my opinion the archetype is just too good.


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It still does not outshine a 9/9 caster.
The only really nice thing it gets is the ability to hide its casting. But it does not get this until 12 level. By that point you are outside of normal society play. I don't think it is too crazy to ban.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Ragoz. It's really helpful to see the factors that you are looking at and considering. My question: is the silksworn better than a wizard, sorcerer or arcanist?

Most occultists fight. They're very versatile in and out of combat. This one gives up most of its melee abilities for spell casting. It's going to play very differently than a normal occultist. My question is... How does it compare to the full casters?

Hmm

The Exchange

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These arguments never come down to being better than a full caster (because nothing ever will). It overshadows the base Occultist too much.

Trading some armor and weapon proficiency is nothing. Many races can even get stuff like that back at no cost, many items will grant it, you can just take a feat etc. This is not a sacrifice to the class' martial ability.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's certainly better at spellcasting than a normal occultist - but spellcasting (and its focus powers, which are very much like spellcasting) is all it does. And it's worse at spellcasting than a wizard, a sorcerer, or an arcanist.

Ragoz wrote:
These arguments never come down to being better than a full caster (because nothing ever will). It overshadows the base Occultist too much.

An occultist gets a lot of mileage out of being able to go toe-to-toe in melee. Lacking that means you're basically a caster - without the raw power of a full 9/9 caster. Just because it's better at magic than the base class (while paying a large price - all armor is gone), doesn't make it better than the base class overall.

Ragoz wrote:
Trading some armor and weapon proficiency is nothing. Many races can even get stuff like that back at no cost, many items will grant it, you can just take a feat etc. This is not a sacrifice to the class' martial ability.

Get it back? On an arcane spellcaster who now suffers arcane spell failure chance? I don't think you'd want to, even if you could.


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Ragoz, first thanks for that breakdown. It was well done :)

As a philosophical arguement, is it more important to have power in line with the base class or in line with its nearest core class?

To me it is more important to for an archetype to be inline with its nearest core class. In this case I think the silkworm is trying to be a pure caster, so it should be compared to either a sorcerer or a wizard. I think it is weaker than both.

As a philosophical point if there was a class that was terrible, just aweful, but there was an archetype for it that made it mediocre. Should that archetype be banned for being far better than the base class? Or aught it be allowed for being in line with most other classes?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond aka Slothsy

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Likewise, when you look at focus powers, you need to have mental focus to make use of them. Even with getting INT and CHA to mental focus, you're going to be starved for enough to go around. It's going to be hard to upgrade both INT and CHA due to headband competition. You can't use an ability if you don't have resource pool points to power it. An extra 2-4 points from getting CHA and INT is still going to end up starving for them. Likewise, you may know 4 more spells, but you still need more spells per day in order to cast them.

It's definitely an upgrade in the casting, but giving up the majority of the melee abilities means that I won't make every occultist I play a silksworn. It specializes in one part of the class to the exclusion of others.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Ragoz wrote:

These arguments never come down to being better than a full caster (because nothing ever will). It overshadows the base Occultist too much.

Trading some armor and weapon proficiency is nothing. Many races can even get stuff like that back at no cost, many items will grant it, you can just take a feat etc. This is not a sacrifice to the class' martial ability.

I don't think any race grants armor proficiency. Even more importantly, arcane spellcasters have arcane spell failure.

Several races (notably elves, half-elves, tengus, dwarves and half-orcs) have some excellent racial weapons. I imagine that elves in particular would be popular with this archetype. Grab a long bow, and stay in the back.

Still, the loss of good armor and really good weapon proficiencies is costly. Having to take them as feats means that you have less martial feats open to you. As for items that grant weapon proficiency feat, there is an ioun stone but it is VERY costly unless you already have martial weapon proficiency.

Hmm

PS @MichaelCullen: "Silkworm". That autocorrect made me giggle.


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Ragoz wrote:
Straight upgrade.

The "downgrade" parts of the archetype should be addressed as well. An archetype is not any one or two of its parts, but the sum of the whole combined with the practical result of its play experience.

Ragoz wrote:
Occultist wrote:
In addition, at 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, he learns a new focus power selected from the options granted by all of the implement schools he knows.
She learns 2 additional focus powers each time than normal.

This is incorrect. She learns the same number of non-base focus powers as a normal occultist.

Ragoz wrote:
Silksworn wrote:

At 8th level, a silksworn gains a +1 bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks for each magical article of clothing occupying one of his implement schools’ magic item slots.

This ability replaces magic circles.

Trades a near useless ability for a +6 or higher bonus to 2 skills.

By requiring monetary investment in magic items to fill those slots, thus increasing the diversity of magic items used in PFS. I seem to recall, back during the jingasa incident, a lot of folks complaining that there was no reason to use magic items...

Ragoz wrote:
Silksworn wrote:

Whenever the silksworn casts a spell, he can attempt a Bluff check opposed by Sense Motive checks from those observing him. Those who fail are unaware of his spellcasting, unless an effect obviously originates from the silksworn.

This ability replaces binding circles.

A mechanic that has been highly avoided because it lets the caster just run rampant replacing an ability which again won't be used.

This may be true. Note, however, that this is not just a feat or a magic item, but a class feature requiring twelve levels of investment. You can't just splash for it.

I posit that the positive impact of the previous eleven levels should not be thrown away over something that will only impact Seeker arcs.

Ragoz wrote:
Silksworn wrote:
A silksworn’s spells are considered arcane spells, not psychic spells, and his spells use verbal and somatic components instead of thought and emotion components.
He can take prestige class options which advance arcane spellcasting for some reason. Certainly creates more options.

I don't know what prestige classes would excite a silksworn, since it cuts off their access to new schools and thus new spells.

More importantly, you've omitted the primary drawback of arcane magic - spell failure. The silksworn can't just toss on a breastplate, buff it up with aegis, and go to town, even if she takes a dip in fighter or something similar.

Ragoz wrote:
In my opinion the archetype is just too good.

You've certainly presented in-depth analysis of the sort appropriate to these threads, and while I disagree with your conclusions, I thank you for your effort and your contributions. ^_^


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Rigby Bendele wrote:
Likewise, when you look at focus powers, you need to have mental focus to make use of them. Even with getting INT and CHA to mental focus, you're going to be starved for enough to go around. It's going to be hard to upgrade both INT and CHA due to headband competition. You can't use an ability if you don't have resource pool points to power it. An extra 2-4 points from getting CHA and INT is still going to end up starving for them. Likewise, you may know 4 more spells, but you still need more spells per day in order to cast them.

Having already run several builds, both for home games and in anticipation of the potential legalization, I can confirm all of this. Unless you go all in on Int and Cha, starving your other scores, you're not going to be using all of those focus powers as effectively as a regular occultist.


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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I don't think any race grants armor proficiency. Even more importantly, arcane spellcasters have arcane spell failure.

...

Still, the loss of good armor and really good weapon proficiencies is costly. Having to take them as feats means that you have less martial feats open to you. As for items that grant weapon proficiency feat, there is an ioun stone but it is VERY costly unless you already have martial weapon proficiency.

These are important points as well. Everything is about investment. Sure, you can dip or burn a few feats on getting other parts back, but those are still resources you're spending.

If you're burning all your other resources on getting back what you lost - except for arcane spell failure, which is very challenging to fully mitigate - wouldn't you have been better off playing a regular occultist in the first place (or some other class, such as magus) and spending those resources on other things?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond aka Slothsy

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I do too deeply appreciate the alternative view. Just because I go "I don't see a problem!" doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. We all value different parts of this game, after all. Thanks for your input, Ragoz.


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MichaelCullen wrote:

Ragoz, first thanks for that breakdown. It was well done :)

As a philosophical arguement, is it more important to have power in line with the base class or in line with its nearest core class?

To me it is more important to for an archetype to be inline with its nearest core class. In this case I think the silkworm is trying to be a pure caster, so it should be compared to either a sorcerer or a wizard. I think it is weaker than both.

This archetype is a pretty major game-changer. In this case, comparison to classes that more closely match its primary function may be most apt, even if it isn't standard practice.

MichaelCullen wrote:
As a philosophical point if there was a class that was terrible, just aweful, but there was an archetype for it that made it mediocre. Should that archetype be banned for being far better than the base class? Or aught it be allowed for being in line with most other classes?

See Unchained Rogue.


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Isabelle Lee wrote:
I don't know what prestige classes would excite a silksworn, since it cuts off their access to new schools and thus new spells.

Okay, I did think of one. They'd probably be happy with the evangelist prestige class. ^_^

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Terminalmancer

I don't know occultist well enough to do a full breakdown of the class. That said, I would not interpret explanations of why this class may have been banned as arguments that it should have been. The "it's not anywhere near as good as a 9th-level caster!" wars have been hashed out repeatedly over other fun, flavorful options already and Paizo minds have not so far been changed.

I can't speak for him, but I get the sense that Ragoz was not advocating that the archetype should be banned. I thought he was just trying to explain why other things have been banned in general, and trying to relate that to the Silksworn archetype.

The Exchange

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Yeah I'm not saying it should be banned. I have a very long history of advocating for giving players as many options as possible. I'm just quickly identifying what could be the reasons the decision was made.

Yeah I definitely read the 3rd level ability incorrectly. You will have more options to choose from but not more to use.

Arcane spell failure isn't normally a big issue. I'm currently brewing a new character in my head... silksworn.. deaf cursed oracle.. hellknight signifier yes..

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond aka Slothsy

Terminalmancer wrote:

I don't know occultist well enough to do a full breakdown of the class. That said, I would not interpret explanations of why this class may have been banned as arguments that it should have been. The "it's not anywhere near as good as a 9th-level caster!" wars have been hashed out repeatedly over other fun, flavorful options already and Paizo minds have not so far been changed.

I can't speak for him, but I get the sense that Ragoz was not advocating that the archetype should be banned. I thought he was just trying to explain why other things have been banned in general, and trying to relate that to the Silksworn archetype.

What I'm trying to communicate is that this archetype changes the play of the class completely. It gives up much of what other 6-level casters get (mostly melee abilities) and trades it for more spellcasting abilities. However, it still remains a 6-level caster. That's why it's the comparison to the wizard/sorc/arcanist is coming up.

Compare this to the discussion around Eldritch Archer; that kept heavy melee capabilities that combined with keeping its casting power. Likewise, with the eldritch scoundrel - that's still available for the core rogue but not the unchained rogue - again, another set of trading out melee for spellcasting.

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Korolan

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First things first! Let's look at this as a breakdown:

Breakdown:
1) Skills: Bluff(a Very Social skill) and Knowledge(Nobility)(one of the MOST rarely used knowledges) instead of Knowledge(Engineering and Planes) So far, Pretty Innocuous.

2) Spells: Occultist is an Arcane Caster instead of a Psychic caster. So, Arcane Spell failure for Shields and Armor, and spells are no longer purely mental actions. Common solutions to shut down Arcane Casters (Silence, Hold Person etc are back on the table.) So far, pretty reasonable.

3) Implements: Instead of Items with History, you have to wear Fancy Clothing. Not ridiculously fancy (but you better believe that they will be) but fancy. This cuts into about 1/3 of a character's starting wealth, but after that isn't much of a challenge.

4) Cantrips: You get to pick your 'Knacks' but you are limited to Arcane spells. You lose out on some things like Guidance and Know Direction, but gain access to things like Acid Splash and Prestidigitation. It expands your cantrip options, but at the end of the day, they are Cantrips.

5) Mental Focus: Getting a little extra Mental Focus is important, especially for a class that is going to be spread so thin on it already. More on that in the next topic.

6) Devoted Mystic: Here is the rough swing. Instead of 2 implements, you have 4. This gives you much MUCH more versatility at the low levels. You also get all of the Focus Power goodies, with a (slightly) larger pool. There is a lot there that has the potential to be powerful, and I'll get into that at the end. You have a -lot- of options, or at least the possibility for them. In exchange, you lose a good chunk of the staying power that an Occultist has normally. You get access to the staples (Mage Armor, Shield and Mirror Image) slightly slower than the wizard (4th instead of 3rd) but to get those spells on your spell list, you have to choose that implement. Every option that you take to make you more survivable, makes it that much more difficult for you to do something, well, useful. You want Mage Armor, Shield and Mirror Image? Cool! You have them. You get 2 utility spells at second level. 2. And unlike a wizard, where you can pick and choose from a delightfully diverse spell pool, you are limited to what is in the occultist's bag of tricks.
Now, don't get me wrong, it's a very good bag of tricks. It just comes slowly, and often at the cost of specialization instead of utility. Which is one of the cool things that you trade out for the ability to be a full on caster.

7) Silksworn Eloquence: You get a (potential) +9 to Diplomacy any Bluff. Well, if you spread your schools out super thin, you can get to +9 at 18th level. so... 2 free Skill Focus feats, if you spend the money on Magic Items? This seems... Underwhelming at best.

8) Silksworn Deception: When you get out of range of Most scenarios, and into the range of modules you can... pretend that you are not casting a spell. Ok, that bluff bonus is looking better! But while you are trying to (sneakily) cast a wall of Fire, the wizard is tossing Chain Lightning to nuke down the entire field. Or Flesh to Stone the BBEG. or Wall of Iron. or Geas. Mass Suggestion. Even if we are looking at Sorcerers, you are just keeping pace with their spells per day, except they are ahead of you by 2 spell levels. The primary issue, is that you can't keep up with other full casters, while your objective is to be focused on casting.

9) Silksworn Arcana: Ok, this is really -Really- good. You get free Spell Focus into Greater spell focus, in any slot that you 1) have chosen as an implement and 2) are wearing a Magic Item in. That is a whole lot of free feats. It also comes online at level 16, when other full casters are just controlling the rest of the game. Also, at this point, we are Way WAY into module territory.

10) Implement Mastery: In the realm of PFS, doesn't matter. There are no 20th level modules.

Ok, that is a lot longer than I had initially anticipated. Overall, you trade out a lot of options, and a lot of utility for cool focus powers, and a 6/9 spell progression. A lot of the focus powers are really interesting and awesome, but also very situational. The Occultist spell list looks really good, but you only get 1 of each spell per school. You can't use scrolls or Wands with abandon like sorcerer/wizard/arcanist, as the spells aren't on your spell list unless you choose them, and then those resources are already expended. Overall, I think it comes in less powerful than the Arcanist, but a solid and interesting choice.

Rigby: Sign me up for Druma Lodge.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

The eldritch scoundrel also benefited from the sense vitals spell, allowing it to temporarily get its sneak attack back. Good times. ^_^


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@Quinn Shannon: A quick note on #4 - they don't gain or lose access to any spells, since they still use the occultist spell list.

It's purely an artifact of 3.X/Pathfinder calling 0-level spells of different casting types different names. The reliquarian occultist had to do the same thing, but changing knacks to orisons. Kind of a lot of words for a non-ability, but what can you do.

That said, thank you for your analysis! ^_^

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Ragoz. It's really helpful to see the factors that you are looking at and considering. My question: is the silksworn better than a wizard, sorcerer or arcanist?

Most occultists fight. They're very versatile in and out of combat. This one gives up most of its melee abilities for spell casting. It's going to play very differently than a normal occultist. My question is... How does it compare to the full casters?

Hmm

I don't see how Silksworn can't though. One level of monk fixes a lot of their issues and your really not missing much in terms of progression especially if you want to hit stuff.


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MadScientistWorking wrote:
I don't see how Silksworn can't though. One level of monk fixes a lot of their issues and your really not missing much in terms of progression especially if you want to hit stuff.

If I recall, monk is a notoriously MAD class. Its only two options for low stats are Int and Cha... which are obviously the silksworn's main stats. So now you need all six of your stats to be high.

Even with scaled fist (the obvious go-to here) removing Wis from the equation, it seems like you'll be spreading your point-buy awfully thin. Your BAB, spellcasting, and other abilities suffer from splashing monk as well. And will the final result really be that much better than your other options?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MadScientistWorking wrote:
I don't see how Silksworn can't though. One level of monk fixes a lot of their issues and your really not missing much in terms of progression especially if you want to hit stuff.

What would a monk dip give you?

You basically get Wisdom to your AC, on a class that needs to be heavily invested in intelligence AND charisma. If you're expecting to be in melee too, you also need strength (to hit, and add to damage) and dex (to have a useful armor class) - not to mention con, which you need anyway, for hit points as a front-liner. That's all six ability scores you now need to be high.

And as Isabelle said, even if you go Scaled Fist, you need to focus on five of your six ability scores and you're gaining at most a few points of AC, while delaying your casting, your implements, your mental focus, and reducing the power of all your other class features.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Isabelle Lee wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
I don't see how Silksworn can't though. One level of monk fixes a lot of their issues and your really not missing much in terms of progression especially if you want to hit stuff.

If I recall, monk is a notoriously MAD class. Its only two options for low stats are Int and Cha... which are obviously the silksworn's main stats. So now you need all six of your stats to be high.

Even with scaled fist (the obvious go-to here) removing Wis from the equation, it seems like you'll be spreading your point-buy awfully thin. Your BAB, spellcasting, and other abilities suffer from splashing monk as well. And will the final result really be that much better than your other options?

Actually your BAB stays the same and honestly the Occultist isn't that horrible of a dip. Namely because it is a pretty frontloaded class and the silksworn makes it even more so if resonance works the way I've been told.

EDIT:
How are you supposed to stack implements? The archetype doesn't actively state and I just would find it amusing that you have to wear two pairs of shoes.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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The monk dip is almost like saying that all sorcerers should be dipping scaled fist. Can it make a good build? Sure. Is it an easy fit? No.

I too want to voice that I'm not sure of the reasoning behind the ban. Having a few more spells known is nice, but it still limited to 1 per selected school, which is different from other spell classes that can load up on one school if they wanted. And occultists already know more spells than others, so this is shifting the focus, but is just adding versatility over straight power.

So the next thing is getting extra spell slots. For PFS that could easily be removed in clarification, but even as is, it helps with the 1 thing that is a big issue for spellcasting focused 6th casters. You really fall behind on how many spells you have each day. So yes, I'd say this is the best casting 6th caster.

Compared to full casters you still have less spells per day, slower progression, though you do have better bab, HP, and skill points while also having focus powers that are kinda like bonus spells.

you have a free headband in trasmutation, but it ranks up slower than a real headband can, so it's really moving into a backup stat for you.

The hardest part of these requests to legalize is that we don't know why it was banned. So we have to spend time wandering everywhere to hope we hit the reason it was banned.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Thomas Hutchins wrote:


you have a free headband in trasmutation, but it ranks up slower than a real headband can, so it's really moving into a backup stat for you.

Actually, its a belt and you can get more than one. If I had to guess the reasoning is that yes you can activate two transmutation implements at once and have two different stat bonuses going on at the same time at level 1. Normally this is a ridiculously goofy investment on the part of the Occultist but the Silksworn completely negates that tradeoff.


I do want to note (since I'm not sure if this is being misunderstood, or if I just can't read others' posts properly) that an occultist can learn multiple spells of the same school by selecting that implement school multiple times.

Occultist wrote:

If he selects the same implement school multiple times, he adds one spell of each level from that school's list for each time he has selected that school.

...

An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

You don't get additional focus powers, so it's less beneficial than selecting a new school. But if you really want multiple spells of one school, you can do it.

...if everyone already knows this and I'm just restating the obvious, don't mind me. ^_^


MadScientistWorking wrote:
How are you supposed to stack implements? The archetype doesn't actively state and I just would find it amusing that you have to wear two pairs of shoes.

You don't. As long as you have an appropriate item in the slot, all your spells and abilities of that school are "on". This also means that the silksworn effectively only has one "transmutation implement", even if he selected the school multiple times. (This is relevant to the quote below.)

MadScientistWorking wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:


you have a free headband in trasmutation, but it ranks up slower than a real headband can, so it's really moving into a backup stat for you.
Actually, its a belt and you can get more than one. If I had to guess the reasoning is that yes you can activate two transmutation implements at once and have two different stat bonuses going on at the same time at level 1. Normally this is a ridiculously goofy investment on the part of the Occultist but the Silksworn completely negates that tradeoff.

This is inaccurate. Even if you've selected the transmutation implement school multiple times, the silksworn doesn't use individual implements - you're either wearing fancy shoes, or you're not. (Even if it did work that way, that's an awful lot of resources to spend on just a couple of +2s.)

This is also why the silksworn occultist's access to additional schools doesn't make them the ultimate panoply users. Since they don't select implements the way other occultists do, they can't meet the requirements of panoplies.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:


PS @MichaelCullen: "Silkworm". That autocorrect made me giggle.

I've been reading it like that the whole time...

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

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Maybe it's something that they have in mind for a chronicle sheet.


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Todd Morgan wrote:
Maybe it's something that they have in mind for a chronicle sheet.

I would be ok with this. Especially if they are worried about someone dipping the class.

As an aside, This is one of the most friendly threads I have ever seen on the boards. Posters thanking others for opposing views/arguments. If only the rest of the world was like this.

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Todd Morgan wrote:
Maybe it's something that they have in mind for a chronicle sheet.

The prestige classes, I understand, but an archetype would be an odd reward.

I too was interested in playing this build. It seemed distinctly different than all the other Transmutation/Abjuration battle hosts already out there.


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They have done archetypes on chronicle sheets in the past. They open up the archetype for future characters you make.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

If its a flat out upgrade to the occulist that would also do it in. Making an archetype mandatory for a class is a big no, even if the result doesn't hit wizard or sorcerer levels.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
you have a free headband in trasmutation, but it ranks up slower than a real headband can, so it's really moving into a backup stat for you.

I'll point out that the transmutation resonance is only for physical stats, which means it's not nearly as useful for a Silksworn as it is for other occultists.

(I have some comments about this, but I'll have to post them later. I have a bunch of things to do first.)

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond aka Slothsy

Regarding unlock via chronicle sheet: I know this sometimes happens. However, it tends to be rare and has been associated previously with options that were heavily restricted due to in-game world building reasons. Nothing in the silksworn write up sounds "limited in nature" to me.

Examples:
The Thassalonian Specialist unlock makes sense because there are not that many Thassalonian Specialists in the world. The archetype from Iron Gods makes sense because tech is very limited in the world as well. I think there's one more I'm missing but, in any case, the "big" ones that come up have clear in-game reasons why they aren't allowed.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
If its a flat out upgrade to the occulist that would also do it in. Making an archetype mandatory for a class is a big no, even if the result doesn't hit wizard or sorcerer levels.

A "straight upgrade" would mean that it's strictly better at everything. It isn't. It gives up important melee capabilities that you'd then have to invest in (feats/level dips/whatever) in order to make that up.

The base occultist is a melee-oriented casting class. That's resonant throughout the design of it; many of the resonant and base focus powers provide more melee capability. While a lot of these include the option of "or other weapon/person touched", that will be require some coordinated teamwork (knowing there's a fight coming and buffing, having Mx. Fighter wait to be buffed before charging in, or the occultist wading into melee xemself - which would be Very Dumb with this archetype).

5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
If its a flat out upgrade to the occulist that would also do it in. Making an archetype mandatory for a class is a big no, even if the result doesn't hit wizard or sorcerer levels.

It is very far from being a flat out upgrade as you end up having to make some major concessions to make use of it. It pushes you towards heavy investment in Int to take advantage of the spells and moderate investment in Charisma to get the extra focus. This leaves not much space for con and str/dex depending on what you want to do. The lack of any armour and the shift to arcane casting means that you aren't doing any sort of melee.

You might be able to make ranged work but you miss a lot of the common martial buffs available to other level 6 classes. You get no divine favour, divine power, heroism, good hope, righteous might or any of the various polymorph effects other level 6 and 9 martially inclined casters use. You do get enlarge, lead blades and gravity bow but have very few ways to make up for the BaB difference.

If you take silksworn as a casting orientated level 6 caster class and compare it to the others it is hardly knocking them out of the park. It lacks the group buffing of bards, it lacks the fast casting and self buffing of warpriests, it lacks much of the summoning power of summoners (its servitor power lags behind fast) or the sheer damage output of inquisitors.

It is a decent archetype for a decent class which can be built as a very versatile character but is far from overpowered and far from being the default pick for anyone choosing occultist as it forces you to make difficult choices. Which is what a decent archetype should actually do.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

I also think this archetype is NOT a straight upgrade and think it would be a good idea to make it either legal with the next update for AR or make it available per boon (in a timely fashion).

3/5

It could also be something that they want to address in CC, but has enough moving parts that they didn't have time to get it done the way they wanted to before the release of the AR update. IE better to ban for now and unban later than allow now and NERF later.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

MadScientistWorking wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:


you have a free headband in trasmutation, but it ranks up slower than a real headband can, so it's really moving into a backup stat for you.
Actually, its a belt and you can get more than one. If I had to guess the reasoning is that yes you can activate two transmutation implements at once and have two different stat bonuses going on at the same time at level 1. Normally this is a ridiculously goofy investment on the part of the Occultist but the Silksworn completely negates that tradeoff.

I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet. But Mark said that he thinks it falls under the rule that one can only benefit from 1 transmutation resonance power, and that it MIGHT be that you can only have 1 resonance ever for an occultist so that you can't even give away the extra ones you don't benefit from.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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It's as much an "upgrade" as battle host. Battle host trades away utility and spells for extra combat focus. This archetype is the same yet opposite, giving away martial power for spells. I definitely wouldn't count that as an upgrade or mandatory. It's similar to making a melee sorcerer via DD. Sure you can do it and it works, but it's a major change from the normal view of the class.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Actually, Scaled Fist Unchained Monk 1, Occultist 11 might work pretty well, especially if you use your transmutation power to focus to improve your unarmed strike.

Buy an amulet of mighty fists +1, and every fight can start with "I give my fists bane".

EDIT: I don't really have strong feelings about this (ok I really dislike the level 12 power, especially since even the base enchantment implement give a bonus on charisma based skill checks).

Sovereign Court 4/5

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I don't get the hate over the 12th level power

Given as an Encanter (Thessalonians's Spec) 8/Enchanting courtesan 2.. I can pretty much do that within Divination/Enchantment spells and thanks to Conceal/Improved Conceal spell all other spells.

Given I get something like 14 skill points/level as an EC it is quite easy to pull in the skills to make GMs grind their teeth. But I got lots of buffs to make my 'lust lord' a very effective face.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Actually, Scaled Fist Unchained Monk 1, Occultist 11 might work pretty well, especially if you use your transmutation power to focus to improve your unarmed strike.

Buy an amulet of mighty fists +1, and every fight can start with "I give my fists bane".

EDIT: I don't really have strong feelings about this (ok I really dislike the level 12 power, especially since even the base enchantment implement give a bonus on charisma based skill checks).

yeah, it's definitely possible as a build. But it's asking why? If you're focusing on casting your physical stats aren't so good for melee stuff, and if you're doing melee stuff with a little casting, is it really worth taking this archetype over the normal more combat oriented versions?

Going Dex based monk dip you have Dex for AC and attacks, con for HP off of a d8, int for spells, wis for will saves, and Cha for AC and pool.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Actually, Scaled Fist Unchained Monk 1, Occultist 11 might work pretty well, especially if you use your transmutation power to focus to improve your unarmed strike.

Buy an amulet of mighty fists +1, and every fight can start with "I give my fists bane".

EDIT: I don't really have strong feelings about this (ok I really dislike the level 12 power, especially since even the base enchantment implement give a bonus on charisma based skill checks).

yeah, it's definitely possible as a build. But it's asking why? If you're focusing on casting your physical stats aren't so good for melee stuff, and if you're doing melee stuff with a little casting, is it really worth taking this archetype over the normal more combat oriented versions?

Going Dex based monk dip you have Dex for AC and attacks, con for HP off of a d8, int for spells, wis for will saves, and Cha for AC and pool.

Yeah contrary to what everyone is saying the Silksworn doesn't give up the abilities that most people think makes the Occultist overpowered. I really should try building one out because I half contemplated making one for a campaign and this is just making me want to see how well it would work.

EDIT:
Yeah... Im not seeing that huge of a tradeoff between a Silksworn and a normal occultist with the same build.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Cloren Chenross wrote:

I don't get the hate over the 12th level power

Given as an Encanter (Thessalonians's Spec) 8/Enchanting courtesan 2.. I can pretty much do that within Divination/Enchantment spells and thanks to Conceal/Improved Conceal spell all other spells.

conceal spell works off of a static, not quite scaling DC with three skills 2 of which are very common, one of which is the most used skill in the game, and requires that you max out bluff and sleight of hand.

Flat out bluff vs. sense motive is a no brainer for the caster to keep the bluff score high to unbeatable.

as for 12th level, PFS is slowly making its way into that area more and more.

If thats the problem, "the occultist instead gains conceal spell as a feat without meeting the pre reqs" would be an easy fix.

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