Thats crazy Mr Am, what do you do when you see one now?
I think belkar is just ranger. he doesn't rage and he has animal companion.He does have at least one level in Barbarian.
What makes you say that?
He went to like a council of barbarians or something at some point wanting to multiclass if I remember correctly.
I don't remember Ill have to find that one.
good luck xD
Here I thought kender was just a slur, had no idea it was a race in an old game.
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Calling Dragonlance an old game makes me realize I'm getting old xD
It's not that Kender are bad. The creation of the race came about for imo so very poor reasons imo. The authors of the Dragonlance books disliked having a class that stole items. So they made a race thst stole stuff only to return items when asked. Except in the novels they came across as a race of childish kleptomaniacs.
While also being poorly written both by Weish and Hickman as well as secondary author writing on the Dragonlance universe.
(Kender removes belt pouch from unsuspecting victim and get caught)
Victim " stop thief"
Kender " I'm not a thief it fell into my pouches"
And so on. With players playing them as poorly as Paladin. At least a thief is honest so go speak in intentions so to speak.
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It's not that Kender are bad. The creation of the race came about for imo so very poor reasons imo. The authors of the Dragonlance books disliked having a class that stole items. So they made a race thst stole stuff only to return items when asked. Except in the novels they came across as a race of childish kleptomaniacs.
While also being poorly written both by Weish and Hickman as wrll as secondary authors writing on the Dragonlance universe.
(Kener rem
Thats a little off. They didn't like the idea of showing theives and thugs as heroic, but also didnt want to retread the same ground that Halflings/Hobbits had done in the Lord of the Rings and the basic setting, so they made the Kender race which was driven by curiosity and exploration rather than greed and selfishness (thief). They also made Gnomes into tinkerers (the original Alchemist/Gunslinger), and plenty of other concepts that turned some common concepts on their head. The main issue is that just about every other view of the race we got was a clone of the main character from the novels, which basically painted the entire race as having that character's personality traits and excusses, rather than showing others for the entire species.
Another large issue was from the player base, who generally misplayed them badly, overdoing some of the race's quirks or being jerks and trying to use the race as a shield for poor behavior, (but, Im a Kender).
Personally, I hold their novels as some of the best of any game-related novels out there, even after like 30 years.
Had they not heard of Robin hood or Han Solo?
Heroism isn't reserved for Lawful Good.
The problem with Tasslehoff's clones is that even some writers from Dragonlance fell into it. All kenders ended being Tasslehoff. With that stereotype being encouraged even from official sources there wasn't a lot that could be done.
Robin hood is a pretty positively presented thief? To my knowledge this doesn't tend to offend many people
Agreed and seconded with Kileanna. It felt like almost every other Kender was a Tasselhoff clone. With race imo being collectively portrayed like Tasslehoff.
I'm assuming Tasslehoff was a particularly ... something ... Kender who occurred early in DragonLance's lifespan?
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Here I thought kender was just a slur, had no idea it was a race in an old game.
Not so much an "old game" (there was a 3rd edition D&D version) as "another one of the canonical Dungeons and Dragons settings" being the best supported behind Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. One of the things about Dragonlance (the world was called "Krynn") was that the creators (Laura and Tracy Hickmann, and later Margaret Weiss) was that they did a different spin on a lot of the classic D&D races: Gnomes were mad technologists, Minotaurs were noble imperialists with a strong sense of honor, Elves are extra extra aloof and live apart from everybody, and Halflings become "Kender" who differ from the standard Halflings by being happy-go-lucky kleptomaniacs afflicted with wanderlust.
The other thing Dragonlance is notable for was as being the first variant of D&D to take a decidedly narrativist bend (it had a metaplot, which was previously unprecedented), which some people disliked (and others loved) as it was decidedly less "war-gamey" than its predecessors.
The thing about Kender specifically is that while they can be charming in the novels, they're decidedly less charming in the hands of almost everyone who played one "like they are in the books" as their role in the books was primarily: agent of chaos, provocateur, and general annoyance.
The other problem was that there was/is a certain kind of player who absolutely wants to play a meddlesome kleptomaniac who is too fast and oblivious to ever be caught. Kender enabled that big time.
And, well, with tinker gnomes and gully dwarves there were just too many "silly" races in early Krynn.
Funny I'd always assumed the objection was the same as the objections to Svirfneblin only they were played En masse. Some obnoxiously powerful races that everyone picked because it was standard.
How wrong I was.
I mostly GM Dragonlance and I have made those races a bit less quirky but still I don't have a lot of them in my campaigns because they are still a bit... complicated.
Dragonlance is a nice setting because some cool storylines and... well, I really love Dragonlance elves and Knightly Orders. But it also has a lot of issues and is very outdated. Me and Dalindra are mixing it with Pathfinder and a lot of own stories and we're getting very good results.
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Robin hood is a pretty positively presented thief? To my knowledge this doesn't tend to offend many people
Robin Hood also wasn't the sort of thief they where against. Now really was the Han Solo type character, but rather the mugger, street thug/bully, and the pick-pocket.
The other thing Dragonlance is notable for was as being the first variant of D&D to take a decidedly narrativist bend (it had a metaplot, which was previously unprecedented), which some people disliked (and others loved) as it was decidedly less "war-gamey" than its predecessors.
The thing about Kender specifically is that while they can be charming in the novels, they're decidedly less charming in the hands of almost everyone who played one "like they are in the books" as their role in the books was primarily: agent of chaos, provocateur, and general annoyance.
It was also, comparatively speaking, a Low-Magic, traditional lore style setting. Very similar to how Golarion has a lot of real world analogues, so does Dragonlance, but it wasn't so overt or overbearing, and tended to fit a lot more easily into the setting as a whole, logistically speaking.
It can also be credited for inventing the concept of Prestige Classes in some senses, as two of the larger changes they made was to remove the Paladin Class in favor of the Knights of Solomnia's three branches, one being a Fighter type, one being a Paladin type, and one being a Cleric type, and secondarily, the Orders of High Sorcery, which made Mages (Wizards) evolve into a different class (Mage of the White Robe, Red Robe, or Black Robe) at around 5th level, or become a renegade Wizard.
The other problem was that there was/is a certain kind of player. . .
That's pretty much 90% of the actual problem, I think. :)
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Robin hood is a pretty positively presented thief? To my knowledge this doesn't tend to offend many people
Robin hood was a subversive foreign agent attempting to weaken the crown by disrupting taxation.
He gave to the poor. But he was poor and charity starts at home. He gave to himself and maybe bribed beggars.
All he did was foster class warfare.
Hang him.
Robin hood is a pretty positively presented thief? To my knowledge this doesn't tend to offend many peopleRobin Hood also wasn't the sort of thief they where against. Now really was the Han Solo type character, but rather the mugger, street thug/bully, and the pick-pocket.
if some thief's are fine then banning the class because theifs shouldn't be hero's is illogical to me. All classes have heroes and villains, aside from maybe paladins.
And really how many people play rogue's as muggers and street bully/thugs? Because I've seen that happen pretty much never. Pick Pocket I grant you but I wouldn't lump pick pocket into the same category as street bully or thug.
We were talking about frustrating characters and ended talking about kenders... Just saying.
We were talking about frustrating characters and ended talking about kenders... Just saying.
This little cutie can pick my pockets any day ^^.
*Pats Tasha on the head*
Wait, where did my signet-ring go...
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Thats crazy Mr Am, what do you do when you see one now?
THAT AM DEPENDING ON CASTY. IF CASTY AM NODDING AT BARBARIAN AND BARBARIAN NOD BACK, AM NOT MINUTE OF TALKING, AM NO PROBLEM.
IF CASTY AM STARTING OFF ON TIRADE ABOUT HOW BARBARIAN AM CRAPPY CLASS BECAUSE AM NOT CASTY AND HOW WIZARD AM ABLE BEAT ALL THINGS ALWAYS INCLUDING BARBARIAN, BARBARIAN CORDIALLY DISAGREE, PUT LANCE THROUGH FACE.
THIS AM REQUIREMENT BY CURRENT LAWS OF FRIENDLY LOCAL GAMING STORE, BARBARIAN ALREADY CURRENTLY ON PROBATION FOR BREAKING ENTIRE CAMPAIGN THIS ONE TIME BY SMITING SOME GUY NAME THRUNE DURING FIRST APPEARANCE AT OPEN PROTEST?
BARBARIAN JUST KNOW GUY AM TALKING ABOUT SQUASH NATION, WHICH AM LONG TIME ARCHENEMY OF SMASH, BARBARIAN FELT IT AM PROPER FOR TALKY GUY MEET AMBASSADOR FROM SMASH.
You make exclusively salient points Mr Am. Well Said.
A good question!
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LACK OF RAGE POWER CAUSES SPELL SUNDER TO BE NON OPTION AND CLASS SPELL LIST APPEARS TO HAVE INHERENT LACK OF PROBLEM SOLVING OUTSIDE OF 'MORE DAKKA,' THEREFORE AM INHERENTLY NOT AS GOOD AS BARBARIAN.
AM NOT INHERENTLY TERRIBLE, THO. AM LIKE, CRAZY AGGRO CLASS AND AM SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR NOT NEEDING RAGE CYCLE ANYMORE, AND PIZAO AM DOING GREAT JOB MAKING STUFF LIKE AIR ELEMENTAL SPECIAL MOVEMENT POWER RELEVANT ALWAYS, INSTEAD OF DRAGON WING TOTEM POWER WHICH AM TICKET TO CRASH FACEFIRST AGAINST GROUND.
BARBARIAN NOT BE ONE, BUT IF ONE AM LARGE SIZE BARBARIAN MIGHT HOP ON FOR LANCE DELIVERY TO FACE. PARTICULARLY IF RED, THEN AM GOING THREE TIMES FASTER ANYWAY.
I think your more Dakka argument is a strong one, the spells they are provided with seem to be oriented towards killing things, however are worse for killing things than simply smashing the thing one wishes to kill.
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SPELL SUNDER AM TURNING ON TWO LEVELS LATE, AND AM NOT GETTING POUNCE TO PROPERLY CAPITALIZE ON THIS UNTIL 12TH LEVEL. PRIMALIST AM BASICALLY TO BARBARIAN WHAT SORCERER AM TO WIZARD, ONLY IF SORCERER GOT NEW SPELL LEVELS AT 5TH INSTEAD OF 4TH AND SO ON. WORSE IF AM GOING ELEMENTAL TO GET PERMANENT FLY SPEED, BECAUSE THEN AM REALLY WANTING TAKE THAT INSTEAD OF 2 RAGE POWERS TO GET SPELL SUNDER.
AM PERFECTLY SERVICEABLE, BUT AM STILL NOT ABLE TO STEP LIKE BARBARIAN, WHO AM CONSISTENTLY FLY TURKEY.
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I liked the setting because of the storylines, some specifics of the setting and that it focused more on the narrative than other settings.
But some of the rulings are terrible, as some races that need a lot of work and I had to soften a bit to include them in my setting without making them a joke or a problem.
What I've done when I decided to change to Pathfinder but stay on Dragonlance setting (because we have done some cool and impressing world building and we have many open storylines there) was removing most of the limitations of the Wizards, making the Test a roleplaying event more than a ruling. The only thing we kept was the Moon magic rules applied to all Wizards who have passed the Test. Still Necromancers and Enchanters have to be Black Robes, Transmuters and Illusionists have to be Red Robes and Abjurers and Diviners have to be White Robes.
We decided not to import anything from 3.5 so no Solamnic prestige classes either. We use the rules from the prestige classes to advance to the different ranks and that's it.
In the end we just kept the lore but we adapted the rules and classes to Pathfinder to give more options to the different factions in the World and make them more appealing to play. As they are, most martial classes could be Solamnic Knights without having to take levels in prestige classes, i.e.
We also brought some new territories (all made up by us or to fit some storylines from Pathfinder as we did with Irrisen where it was discovered that a whole nation was living beyond the Ice Wall and it was governed by some sort of renegade wizards: the witches, as witches were unknown by that time), and many new races (hello, Changelings and Undines!) from Pathfinder.
We removed some other fluff limitations as arcane spellcasters being unable to cast healing magic. It was necessary to allow witches and it didn't hinder the bards either.
We didn't state it was always like that. As the world has gone through some cataclismic changes lately we said that magic has been altered on the last few years and new unknown things are appearing. That was also something that was officially happening in the real setting, so it's not really farfetched.
Hmm ok that is a good point but I have still never seen him rage or mention his increased movement speed. I'll just leave myself at a tentative unsure.
Kender are proof that Natural Selection doesn't exist in D&D worlds.
(And I see Snowblind already linked to a good explanation why.)
Oh, it does- the real reason people act like it's no big deal is because they're a race of PCs. Forces of evil have survived attacking elves and dwarves only to die attacking Kender.
It's that old "pretend we're ok with the stealing because we're level 0 commoners and they could murder us because they've all got levels in Thief," thing.
Actually, a powerful red dragon slayed a whole city of kenders and the few survivors were so traumatized (and changed by the dragons magic) that stopped behaving as kenders at all. They called them afflicted kenders, and they are a lot like regular halflings. It was a way from the developers to turn kenders playable, I think. But it also shows us that not even kenders are above the old «rocks fall, everyone dies» when they get too annoying.
As a fun fact I have included Vetala in my setting, which are not vampires created by the souls of dead children but by the souls of the kenders who died in that city.
I think belkar is just ranger. he doesn't rage and he has animal companion.
He's recorded as having taken at least one level of Barb, why, I'm not sure since I've never indeed seen him rage.
We were talking about frustrating characters and ended talking about kenders... Just saying.
Kenders are indeed quite frustrating, I'd never play one or a gully dwarf... It's enough I play a rather industrious Larmac in a Rifts game.
*There was a kid in PFS who chose the worst spells for his level 1 Wizard. Not having an effective Wizard in the party caused a TPK.
How much weight do you expect a lvl 1 wizard to carry? Anything beyond some knowledge rolls is gravy from a lvl 1 wizard.
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I think belkar is just ranger. he doesn't rage and he has animal companion.He's recorded as having taken at least one level of Barb, why, I'm not sure since I've never indeed seen him rage.
His version of Rage is more of a "AHAHAHA MURDER" state of elevated emotion rather than a straight-up Hulk Smash kinda Rage.
A certain violent scene just outside the walls of a certain blue city comes to mind.