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I am a newer GM running Wrath of the Righteous with our group and I have encountered a bit of a situation with one of my players.
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About our group/game:
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We have a larger game, 6-7 players depending on who can show up that week. We play a pretty casual game without 3rd party content but with a few home-brew rules that we have made to fit our group, nothing huge just minor tweaks. The group I am playing with is mostly just close friends with one exception, he is a guy that we just play D&D with but isn't really a member of the group of friends.
We decided at the start of the game that, being a mythic campaign, it was going to be a high powered adventure, so we would have a little fun with it. I let the players have a really high point buy with stats (27 points) and ruled that all of pathfinder, aside from the hybrid and occult classes, was open to them. Our group has agreed that the potential for abuse with the hybrid classes is too much and that occult just doesn't work well with the campaign. I have, with the help of a buddy who is a much more experienced GM, been able to balance the challenges of the fights to match the huge numbers and wide spread abilities of the group and to continue to challenge them while allowing the game to be fun and enjoyable for all.
The party is level 7, almost 8, and has 2 sorcerers, an inquisitor, a barbarian, a paladin, a ranger, and a spell slinger wizard/cleric/mystic thurge. For the sake of allowing my players to enjoy their characters and have fun with the mythic system and the story, I have allowed my players to pretty much do anything they want to do within the pathfinder system. I haven't been closely monitoring or managing their characters. The mythic system, along with the high point buy, has made all the characters power houses that are equipped for just about anything I throw at them, I have been raising the CR or changing the circumstances of the fights to allow for them to still be challenged, and we have been trying to lean hard on the RP of the game. As this is a group of friends this has worked fine as the group has been just trying to see through their character concepts and not trying to abuse the system, with one exception...
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The Problem Child:
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The player that is playing the Paladin is an experienced and notorious power gamer. He is in the group as more of a friend of a friend, but unfortunately we are in a situation that if we cut him from the group we will also lose one of the sorcerers, someone who we have all agreed we would like to keep. For this reason removing him from the game is a very last resort. This player has gone out of his way to take advantage of my leaniant GM'ing style and has created a monster character among monster characters.
I have spoken with him about this and he challenges me on every ruling I have made and accuses me of trying to target him. I have explained my reasoning, and he argues with almost every point and brings up examples of what I have allowed of the other players (which they have NOT attempted to abuse as he has) and then acts sarcastic during the game.
The player has also read through the adventure path books and uses that knowledge to meta-game at critical points that are supposed to challenge the group, but otherwise largely stays out of the RP. He has made some VERY questionable actions in game when he has RPed that conflict with the paladin code and being lawful good. For example, there was the time that he allowed a helpless prisoner to be executed without a trial and without a real chance to defend herself or her actions, with only circumstantial evidence (and heaps of meta-game knowledge) that she was in fact the culprit that they were looking for. I have began imposing penalties on him for this behavior and have been met met huge resistance.
The player also insists that he did not try to break his character, and when I try to argue otherwise he threatens "I can show you min-maxing, this isn't it".
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The Monster Among Monsters:
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The rest of the party has a total stat modifier of 11 or 12, aside from one player who currently has a stat boosting item giving him a 13. The paladin has a total modifier of 17 without any stat boosting items! I know that 11-12 at level 7 with no stat boosting items is stupid high, but with the entire party being at the same level, I can compensate, one player being so far ahead complicates this though. He used advanced age categories to boost his mental stats with a penalty to his physical stats then as soon as he got his first mythic tier he used the universal ability Longevity to eliminate the physical penalties while keeping the boosted mental stats. He played an Aasimar, a 15 RP race with no stat penalty.
He attempted to use Beyond Morality to completely negate his need to RP or fulfill his obligation to be Lawful Good but I refused to allow him to take this ability as I am trying to encourage him to actually role play and with the story being so focused on good and evil I felt it was not appropriate here. This, once again, was met with complaints.
He is wearing magical full plate and a magical heavy steel shield. He has mythic shield focus that allows him to add his shield bonus to his touch AC. He has a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor. This results in him having an AC in the low 30's and having a touch AC in the mid twenties. He has an 18 charisma and a cloak of resistance +2, this with being a paladin means that all of his saves are through the roof. These defenses pretty much dwarf the rest of the entire party.
In addition to having his defenses boosted through the roof he is also an experienced player and uses out of character knowledge to bypass or defend against anything I throw at him.
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In Summary....
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I have been building the encounters to match the party and they have been able to topple much larger threats than any party of their level should have. This is fine as we anticipated this and the party enjoys it, it also allows me to explore the bestiaries and design fun and challenging encounters that would have no place in standard games. The challenge is that if I build an encounter that could conceivably penetrate the paladin's defenses, therefore challenging him as well, then I have built an encounter that has no chance of missing the rest of the party and with saves that they cannot overcome without constantly surging. This has started causing a serious issue and is affecting the ability of my players to have fun or myself to have fun with running the game.
I have spoken to him time and time again and haven't gotten far. We don't really want to remove him from the game as this will come at the expense of losing a player that we want to keep. As the party gains further in levels and wealth this problem is going to continue to be exacerbated as I have heard plans from the rest of the party to make very rich RP based decisions for their characters, while the paladin is planning on further shoring up his defenses and finding a way to add a devastating offense to his repertoire.
I have grudgingly come to the conclusion that the only way to deal with the situation is to kill off his paladin and be more proactive in preventing his next character from being out of control. I hate this solution as I always try to be impartial when it comes to the game and to just allow things to happen naturally. However I am out of alternatives. I am open to suggestions of alternatives but baring that....
How do I kill an overpowered paladin, make it seem organic and part of the story, and not throw something at the party that is going to cause a party wipe?
Contributor
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Do not try to kill his character or otherwise solve things in-game - that will only cause bad blood, and his next character will be even worse. He's making trouble, arguing with you, and blatantly meta-gaming. This is offense after offense, and it sounds like you've repeatedly spoken with him about it to no avail.
There's only one answer. I'm sorry, but it's true. He has to go.
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Do not try to kill his character or otherwise solve things in-game - that will only cause bad blood, and his next character will be even worse. He's making trouble, arguing with you, and blatantly meta-gaming. This is offense after offense, and it sounds like you've repeatedly spoken with him about it to no avail.
There's only one answer. I'm sorry, but it's true. He has to go.
Not the solution I wanted, but I reluctantly agree.
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I feel like "Read the AP in advance" is sort of an intolerable breach of trust since you're basically telling the GM "hey, do a bunch of extra work or I'm going to ruin things for everybody else."
Not giving 27 point buys on Mythic characters will help not break the game.
APs are designed for 15 point buys and mythic is a broken system already so even 15 point buy characters would have been good enough.
Hybrid classes and occult are fine. The fact they stress that and not the 27 point buy makes me laugh.
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I stopped reading at paragraphs 2 and 3 of "Problem Child". My mind was made up.
You seem to have throught all of this through and written a well-reasoned explanation. I think you are nervous about committing to the logical next step. I am not the kind of message board poster who gives knee-jerk "kick him out" advice, but if everything you have written is true then you have already been too lenient.
You need to stand your ground when this player makes these unreasonable objections. Do not allow yourself to be drawn into the argument. Once he has made his case and you in turn make a decision, thats is it. Tell him that it is settled and move on. Ignore further complaints. He is being a child that whines and b!%+@es until he gets his way. We do not play by the child's rules.
It should also go without saying that reading an adventure path and then using the information to bypass challenges is a s&*+ty thing to do. We might as well call it cheating. When the player uses knowledge that the character does not, have no qualms about changing the detail he assumes to be true. Trolls are not susceptible to fire until the characters figure it out. When he starts making fire attacks without a knowledge check, make the trolls vulnerable to cold or something else. I imagine this AP has more demons that trolls, but hopefully you get the idea. If there is a stronghold with a weakpoint that he wants to exploit, change the weak point.
You want to take the high road? Thats fine, but when he starts his BS again, firmly make your stance as clearly as you made the situation in your post. That is his last chance. Do not argue, engage further, or back down.
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Do not try to kill his character or otherwise solve things in-game - that will only cause bad blood, and his next character will be even worse. He's making trouble, arguing with you, and blatantly meta-gaming. This is offense after offense, and it sounds like you've repeatedly spoken with him about it to no avail.
There's only one answer. I'm sorry, but it's true. He has to go.
I was reading through the initial post and thinking of what to say and then read this. I agree totally.
Having a player like this is almost certainly spoiling the game for others.
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I am also running WotR. I assume you are in book 2.
I have give many creatures the Advanced Template.
The ones I want to challenge the party I also add class levels and make them Mythic, even to the point where the enemies are higher tier.
Want to knock the Paladin down? Use Beyond Morality on an antipaladin to engage the paladin. Smite Evil won't work, but Smite Good will. The armor ability Warding will negate a smite.
Retrievers can pull his armor right off him. Advanced Extra HD Retrievers with the Agile Mythic template works well. Even add Swashbuckler levels with combat reflexes/mythic combat reflexes to have unlimited parry/riposte, so it can constantly block attacks and counter attack. Make it a called creature whose orders are to defeat the paladin then when it does it's job it gets sent back to the Abyss.
I have reworked most of the main NPCs/BBEGs to fit our group.
You should do the same so that things are not as he knows it. If he complains then tell him it is all his fault for cheating.
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I have reworked most of the main NPCs/BBEGs to fit our group.
You should do the same so that things are not as he knows it. If he complains then tell him it is all his fault for cheating.
I think the bigger problem is you shouldn't have to re-write an AP because a player decided to read through it. I mean, if I wanted to write my own campaign, I would just do so. Mythic is a bit of a problem though. Just finished Wrath last month, and I don't know if anything short of natural 1 on saves against a mythic creature before anyone had acted ever threatened us. Pretty sure any moderately competent build will overpower any CR appropriate challenges. Someone who uses the mythic rules well could probably play a commoner with 0 point buy and still be overpowered.
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The point buy thing aside - my group doesn't do point buy, we just roll for random stats - and the hybrid/occult classes (understandable on the occult classes, the mythic paths do not fit them), your first mistake with his character was allowing his stats to be so hugely and wildly different from the rest of the group, even if he was using that race? It sounds like he padded the points a bit more than you can before even taking mythic traits and abilities. The arguing and bad behavior, refuse to pay him attention, tell your decisions to the group as a whole and stick by them. If he has a fit, stop running, ask him to leave as he's not letting anyone have fun when he acts like that. Now, that's just for his behavior in general, but adding in the cheating with the abusiveness, either you work around it, give him secret penalties and make things harder for him to steamroll, or you tell him that you know he's doing it and that it is not welcome in your group, tell, do not ask, him not to come back.
Now, you can offer him a second chance but if you do, don't do more than one. And lay down all the ground rules as a group and in the open so he cannot claim you did not say that.
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I feel like "can roll everything in their path" is less of an issue in WotR than it is in other APs, since part of the appeal of Mythic is that you get to play gosh darn superhuman characters. We had a vital striking cave druid who could one hit major antagonists towards the end of the game, it was fine.
More of an issue than "broken" (since this is the AP to play broken characters in) is "jerk". You can't fix player problems with the game, you have to talk it out like people. The fact that the guy read the AP *and* loudly complains when you've changed stuff so "having read the AP" is no longer a silver bullet is a major, major red flag. Avoiding this sort of situation is why I don't run canned adventures anymore, and won't read one unless I've already played it.
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I think the bigger problem is you shouldn't have to re-write an AP because a player decided to read through it. I mean, if I wanted to write my own campaign, I would just do so. Mythic is a bit of a problem though. Just finished Wrath last month, and I don't know if anything short of natural 1 on saves against a mythic creature before anyone had acted ever threatened us. Pretty sure any moderately competent build will overpower any CR appropriate challenges. Someone who uses the mythic rules well could probably play a commoner with 0 point buy and still be overpowered.I have reworked most of the main NPCs/BBEGs to fit our group.
You should do the same so that things are not as he knows it. If he complains then tell him it is all his fault for cheating.
You are right. You shouldn't have to do that. It sounds like he is in a precarious position with kicking the problem out also loses a player the whole group wants to keep.
My group is nearing the end of book 3 and I have the general problems about how powerful mythic PCs are. And I let them build strong PCs on top and I give them powerful bonus abilities and items. I went into this AP with eyes wide open. I make all the changes I do because I want to.
This guy is in a different spot. He has sort of the same mindset I did in letting the PCs start as very strong, and he admits they are super powerful now but he can manage and does enjoy their power because it lets him get funky with what he uses.
The other players are strong but happy in the wheelhouse he has provided, but this one guy is being an issue and is not sounding like he will back off.
Something needs to be done and those are some options.
I have not actually played or read much on the Wraith of the Righteous is that any paladin is going to be very powerful. Add in a very high point buy and that makes it even worse. From the sound of it you would have to work very hard not to have a paladin be incredibly tough. That being said I think you made a couple of mistakes.
1st never allow a character to use any kind of stat adjustments for a starting character. If a player wants his character to be old for RP purpose that but don’t allow him to take the adjustments. Even if the player wants to start out old how does he explain the fact that his character is 70+ years old and only first level? Also how the hell did he survive with a -6 no all physical stats? Anytime a player does something that out there it is either because they are stupid or they have something up their sleeve. If this had happened in a campaign I ran I doubt the paladin would have survived to achieve mythic status.
Second you gave an extremely high point buy. With those kind of stats you are going to get some very powerful characters. Paladins tend to be fairly MAD so a high point buy benefits them more than a lot of other classes. Since all the character have this advantage it is probably not as big of a deal as the other problems, but combining it with the age adjustments made it them even worse.
As to his reading the AP that is something you should tell him to stop. If he does not stop reading and using the knowledge change a couple of things. Just make sure to change the description and alter what you say to the player. After a few times he will probably get the hint, or at least be very careful of what he uses.
The biggest problem I see is the age adjustments. Instead of operating at a 27 point buy he is probably closer to a 45 point buy. I think that if you get rid of the age adjustments and allow him to change longevity for something else probably 90% of your problems will go away. Let him keep anything else but that has to go.
As a side note Beyond Morality only removes the alignment restrictions of the paladin. It does not remove the necessity to follow the rest of the paladin’s code. Go ahead and let him take it and when he violates the code he will fall.
From the sounds of it, this paladin should have already fallen. His gods should take his toys (class features) away if he can't play nice with them. The next time they rest after he does something dishonorable, have him have a messed up dream where his gods renounce him for being a ass, and then he wakes up the next morning as the equivalent of a Mythic Warrior.
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Why didn't you let him take beyond morality? It has little mechanical impact. If you would've let other players take it you should've let him take it as well.
For the code of ethics him doing nothing isn't a violation. He is just doing nothing. He is required help those in need but also punish those who harm innocents. Letting someone be executed is neutral becaus eit is doing nothing not evil.
Now i assume he isn't to bad with his damage output. Here is a tip for designing encounters. Ignore him. He is a paladin and provide limited battlefield control. Get a swarm of say goblins and tarpit him. he has limited aoe potentials and goblins provide effectively no cr adjustment at this level
He is teflon and you cant hurt him but he cant deal with swarms of low cr enemies.
Now you restricted only his choices on mythic abilities. That is unfair.
And he is right when he says his character isn't broken. He is just the perfect martial. He deals massive weapon damage and doesn't die. That is the best a martial can do.
He could've made a caster and provided swarms of summoned creatures that do that same role and also provide random spells. He couldve made a diviner wizard that goes first and autowins every combat. But he didnt.
He made a character that won't die and is hard to kill.
Do you disagree with anything I have said? If so point out why and il try to explain.
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I'd suggest sitting down with your paladin and sorc out of character and saying "look your character is significantly more effective than the other players. Your reading ahead caused issues in xyz. This is lessening enjoyment for the other players, how do you think this should be resolved?"
He may have an answer. In my experience he won't and you are best to remove him. But my 2c is this is the best way to have the conversation, he could make some suggestions
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You don't need to penetrate his defenses to neutralize him. I assume he has some way to fly by now but if not this is even easier. Take a swarm of say common bats if he can fly or say rats if he cant and just tarpit him.
He gets to kill enemies and hold back the swarm from devouring the tasty squishy caster sin the back. He contributes but you dont have to change the rest of the encounter to accommodate him.
If you allow other players to do things but prevent him from doing the same thing the you are targeting him.
I have explained my reasoning, and he argues with almost every point and brings up examples of what I have allowed of the other players
If you let other players use the same things you should let him use the same things. Why would you play favorites? Also why is being a powergamer bad?
I don't see the logic in banning hybrid classes in a 27 point mythic game ... like at all. Occult classes don't have mythic support so that makes sense.
Anyway I think it sounds like kicking him is the best bet.
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The player has also read through the adventure path books and uses that knowledge to meta-game at critical points that are supposed to challenge the group, but otherwise largely stays out of the RP.
This was as far as I made it.
This was the cherry on top of a mounting pile of evidence leaning towards a decision to remove the player (though for a second, I was going to counter and ask if maybe he had right to question whether he was being unfairly targeted.)
But that line right there? No. Now this may change group by group, but the second I found out a player had read an AP I was going to run, that player could no longer participate in that AP (which might lead to running a different AP instead/whole bunch of other possible solutions). Regardless, that player CAN NOT participate in that AP anymore, full stop.
And if the player doesn't have the maturity to recognize that and make that decision on their own and recuse themselves from the game, that only makes the decision to boot even cleaner.
Try and retain your sorcerer player if you can. Direct them to this thread so that they can see the objective view of others. Or, heck, it sounds like the rest of your players don't want this guy around, either. Their fun needs to be a consideration, too.
I'm sorry. But kicking the player is the correct answer this time around, and it really speaks to his character that he didn't bow out on his own.
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The player has also read through the adventure path books and uses that knowledge to meta-game at critical points that are supposed to challenge the group, but otherwise largely stays out of the RP.But that line right there? No. Now this may change group by group, but the second I found out a player had read an AP I was going to run, that player could no longer participate in that AP (which might lead to running a different AP instead/whole bunch of other possible solutions). Regardless, that player CAN NOT participate in that AP anymore, full stop.
It definitely changes group by group, but more importantly player by player. I have a player in my game that has read the AP, but not once has he metagamed with any of that knowledge, even when it would be extremely advantageous to do so. But it takes a mature player and a dedicated roleplayer to pull that off, and the guy the OP is having trouble with isn't either of those. From his actions is obvious he doesn't even want RP, he just wants to win, regardless if it ruins the game for everyone else.
I don't see the logic in banning hybrid classes in a 27 point mythic game ... like at all. Occult classes don't have mythic support so that makes sense.
Anyway I think it sounds like kicking him is the best bet.
Yup 100% agree here with Chromantic on these points.
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His character isnt overpowered. He has high defense but is still fundamently a martial.
You can tarpit him with say lots of flying skulls. He has what 2 maybe 3 attacks per round? Have your oppenents be smart and occupy the juggernaut with disposable enemies. For wrath of the rigtheous undead would work well.
Then as the party gets higher level you can take advantage of the fact that 1 in 20 attacks will always hit. Use ability score drain or damage and remember he will fail a save 1 in 20 times.
Maybe get a bunch of cultists to cast hold person on him. That is a threat to him and that is what a smart enemy should do.
All this talk of banning the player for having read the AP is absurd. People read paizo books. I assume he bought his own copy for reasons that could vary from wanting to read the swagtastic letters at the end of each one to maybe running it himself. Discouraging people from becoming dms is bad. Too few as is.
You have said he has jacked up his stats by being old and taking advantage of mythic rules. That is the point of mythic rules. Paizo says treat them as 1/2 a level for cr but it is better to treat them as 1 full level.
Another thing. You have several full casters in your group. How does only one person have a stat boosting item? Based on wbl they should have over 20000 gold per person.
You mentioned him gaining a "devastating" offense. Is he going to change classes to someone who can cast spells offensively? Probably not so tarpitting him is still an option. Hell kill 3 maybe 4 of the crowd so throw a bigger hoard at him.
Wrath of the rigtheous has your pcs start out terrible things happening. A paladin who witnesses this isnt going to show mercy. He is going to be out for blood. Take his actions in that light.
The whole not stopping exucution? Probably a devil worshipper. Taking beyond morality? Him slowly drifting towards purging evil above all else. Being unable to be hit? Well he can't be purging if he is dead.
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I ran Wrath with a party of 5-6 characters using 15 PB, and by adventure 4 they were stomping all over everything in their path with little effort, even when I multiplied all enemy groups by 1.5 and added Advanced to all single foes. So that's somewhat normal. My group was bard, sorcerer, oracle, slayer, summoner, paladin so somewhat similar to yours.
I've never read an AP I tried to play in, but I have played an AP multiple times with different GMs. The second time I simply made a character who wasn't really interested in the "plot" elements and stayed out of party discussions where I knew spoilers, so as not to ruin things for the other players.
If you keep him in the group I'd change one major thing in each adventure form here on out. Make sure there are in-game clues so the change is "fair." I'd make it so metagaming that the original version was right would leave the party pretty hosed. Let the player know in advance that you've changed a few things since he's read the adventure. Rewriting everything is too much work, but changing a couple key things will take the certainty out of the player.
There's a bit at the beginning of adventure 5 that could be tragically hilarious if this player has all the arrogance you describe, especially if you tinker with the questions and responses.
Having gm'd wrath of the righteous with a Paladin PC and a similar set up, the only character issue I can see is the age catagory thing and I think there are worse things that he could have done with mythic powers, I still would not have allowed it. My Paladin PC was more damaging than him but with less defenses so mechanically I don't think he is pushing it that far given 'mythic' he will be a true abomination later but any Paladin will be. I have to agree with him that he could be a worse power gamed character, as his AC is not that high while smiting the two handed fighting Paladin in my game had an AC of 29 at that level and probably did more damage.
The problem which would push me is Metagaming with knowledge of the AP, I have on occasion played games where I had OC knowledge and it is entirely possible to do so without causing problems. This guy seems to be causing problems with it that is unacceptable behavior as it effects the fun of everyone else.
Given the character they executed I agree unless they had aquired some extremely strong IC evidence he should have made sure she had a fair trial at worst imprisoning her and shipping her back home for trial as she has an excellent reputation.
However given this player I would have made one of the other NPC's guilty and her innocent from the start just to change things around.
It does sound like from wanting to take beyond morality (which I also banned although no one asked) and the pushing at or more likely breaking the Paladin code he wants the demon slaying powers of a Paladin in this campaign without the attached morality issues , which is a sign of a poor powergamer and roleplayer.
It does sound like his unwillingness to hold back on metagaming and adjust his attitude means he probably has to go , although I don't think he has overly power built his character it's just the way Paladins go in Wrath.
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You have said you havent been closely monitoring character builds. You then mention restricting the paladin from choosing beyong morality. That is where you went wrong. See he couldve been taking effectively a fluff ability to show how he is drifting towards lawful nuetral and how holding back the evil is taking its toll on him. You dont know. You chose to interfere with his character and only his character. That seems like targetting to me.
Do you have his full build? If you need help designing a challenge to him I am sure we can help.
So you have an xp budget of greater than 800 xp to add. Since mythic tiers are involved it is probably closer to 2400 per person.
So lets take all of the cr 1/4 flying enemies and they take up 100 xp. At the low end we might want to switch to a weaker tarpit but at the high emd 24 is more than enough to effectively take him out of the fight. But he will still be contributing to the party. On account of not having these enemies swarm the casters and kill them.
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I have nothing to add beyond the support and good advice you've already received here.
There is nothing worse for a game than a single bad apple like this so I wish you the best of luck in resolving this.
It would be great to hear an update on this after you're next session and I hope it works out for you and your group.
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Rule #1, don't allow anyone to take the stat adjustments from Middle Aged/Old Aged/Venerable. It just doesn't work out when your spellcaster has a DC19 on 0th level spells.
Rule #2, if someone is reading the AP (and not just played it in the past), end the AP. I do enough work every week to keep things going as a GM. If someone wants to cheat that badly, end it. Tell your players EXACTLY why you ended it. Do not mince words. "X was reading ahead. I'm making a story and if you want to peak ahead, I'm not running the AP"
Rule #3, the GM makes adjustment to counter the players. So what if the Paladin has 20ish touch and crazy high saves? I've got a high dex wizard that can hit him unless he rolls a 1. I've got a Zen Archer Monk with just as high AC as the paladin and can attack a ton a round. Can't help if the dice roll a 20 a few times in a turn and then don't confirm.
Rule #4, anything the players can make, you can make. They are fighting a demon army. You think they only have low level tieflings? The demons have heard reports of this army. They are figuring ways to counter it. They have fierce warriors AND numbers, that is why this is the 5th campaign in WotR to put them back and close the world wound. Four whole campaigns failed.
Rule #5, THE ENEMIES WANT TO WIN. Make it so. You are god, "the rules are more of a guideline". The enemies want to win. They found a way to channel demonic energy that works like positive energy for demons but negative energy for anyone else. It also does double damage to any LG character. The enemies want to win. The rules are law for players, but you can make up any spell, any weapon, any rule you want.
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Reading ahead in an AP or Module that you are playing in is grounds for ejection alone especially if you're acting on that knowledge and ruining the game for others.
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"The player has also read through the adventure path books and uses that knowledge to meta-game at critical points"
He is a cheat. KICK HIM OUT.
This bears repeating. He is not a powergamer. He is a cheat.
Powergamers, you work with, figure out how to get the challenge right for everyone.
Cheats, you ban.
Your sorcerer friend complains? You say, "He's been reading ahead and metagaming. He is a cheater and cannot play." Maybe you lose the sorcerer too, maybe not. But a game without a good player and a cheat is better than a game with a good player and a cheat.
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"The player has also read through the adventure path books and uses that knowledge to meta-game at critical points"
He is a cheat. KICK HIM OUT.
This bears repeating. He is not a powergamer. He is a cheat.
Powergamers, you work with, figure out how to get the challenge right for everyone.
Cheats, you ban.
Your sorcerer friend complains? You say, "He's been reading ahead and metagaming. He is a cheater and cannot play." Maybe you lose the sorcerer too, maybe not. But a game without a good player and a cheat is better than a game with a good player and a cheat.
with a group of 6-7 you can even stand to lose 2, so no biggy. I know I do not want to play with cheaters and people who defend and stand up for the cheater.
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I've skipped a lot because there are a lot of unhelpful posts in this thread. Saying "hybrids" are fine, or "27 point buy is your problem" isn't helpful. You may think hybrids are fine and they work in your games the way you play, but you have no idea how the OP plays so you really have no idea if they're "fine" or not.
If you read the original post, you'll see 27 point buy isn't the problem with 6 out of 7 players. If you have 7 items and 6 of them work perfectly, you don't change the 6 to fix the 7th.
DeadJesterKelsier - Some advice:
1. Don't kill the character.
2. self-asses - He's a new-comer and admittedly not a friend. Are you being harder on him than the others? (Not judging, just be honest with yourself)
3. Assuming you have self-assessed and you're sure you're being fair, have you said something like this: "I'm the GM, and I'm trying to make the game fun for everyone. Everyone else is at a certain power level, and your character is significantly above that level. This means I the encounters that challenge you, are deadly to them, and if I set it to their level, you render their characters useless. You are making it so the others aren't having fun. I've tried talking to you, but you want to fight with me. It's not a matter of what's legal or what isn't, it's a matter of making sure everyone has fun.
4. Another option would be to let him know of all the rules you're letting him slide on. Does he have a spell component pouch (a lot of paladins and rangers seem to forget they need them too) are you making him drop his weapon when he lays on hands or cast spells (since he's using a heavy shield)?
5. With Meta-gaming I flat out ignore it, or I change the scenario on the spot, to use your prisoner example:
Metagamer: I execute the prisoner [based on circumstantial evidence]
GM: I feel like you're meta-gaming right now, are you sure that's what your character would do knowing that I may have changed the scenario?
Metagamer: Yes that's my character would do.
GM: Okay, you execute the prisoner and are immediately struck by a bolt of thunder that knocks you to your knees, you get a vision and a feeling in your heart that your god is displeased with your actions and has removed your paladinhood until you atone for killing an innocent.
Metagamer:...
GM: Are you sure you want to metagame?
Have you talked with the sorcerer friend about it? If you can get him to agree his friend is a problem, then maybe you can get him to help. I know more people listen and change for a friend saying they are over the line than they do for "some random GM". Also, have you talked to the rest of the table? If ALL the players are fine with it and having fun then maybe you could care less about it knowing that everyone is enjoying having a super paladin? But if they aren't okay with it, then you can have a table talk and show that he's ruining the fun for a good chunk of the table and maybe that will help him realize he's over the line.
If for whatever reason, you *really* can't just kick him, and want to try to rehabilitate him, (hah, unlikely) consider giving him a build/design/play challenge. Let his current character retire. Give him a very limited selection of weak non-caster classes (and archetypes), and a limited selection of feats. Or instead of a weak non-caster class, challenge him to make the most powerful support build. Pare down point buy to a low amount, or give him a weaker-than-regular array. Then give him certain bonuses...
I'm an optimizer, pretty open about that (But I do restrain myself.)
Personally, I hate class restrictions in general (Though no occult is understandable because of lack of mythic support), and race restrictions are an irritation, but I'm with it for certain settings (But if they're arbitrary, I already make sure everyone gets their moment in the spotlight, why do have to shoot me down. I'm the only non-caster normally, so a good class/race combo doesn't make me look OP to the rest of the group, it just lets me fill our gaping holes.)TLDR: I hate build restrictions, especially if the reason is "You're OP". He just needs to stick to his role and not take other's roles. That is what makes other party members feel useless.
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I've skipped a lot because there are a lot of unhelpful posts in this thread. Saying "hybrids" are fine, or "27 point buy is your problem" isn't helpful. You may think hybrids are fine and they work in your games the way you play, but you have no idea how the OP plays so you really have no idea if they're "fine" or not.
Considering this was his very first statement:
I am a newer GM running Wrath of the Righteous
I say it is very good advice to learn that most Written APs are made for a party of 4 that use a 15 point buy. Most new Home style GMs and Players do not know that information. It may be common knowledge that they just have not heard. So telling a newer GM that information is relative and considered Good advice. Now he knows and in his future games will know not to let the group go wild with an outrageous Point buy that will make any AP way easier and the characters to be more powerful than they should be.
Also as a newer GM he may not know how to handle those kinds of Power levels so telling him to tone it back will help him learn the system as it is meant to be. Before making unenlightened decisions on a system he is not really familiar with yet. That is like getting on the Highway before you learn to back a car out your driveway. Or learning to run before you crawl.
The OP stating that Hybrid classes are OP is just from his misunderstanding of the System and should be set straight on that fact. If he is banning them for simplicity then cool, ok, understandable that you want less materials to work with. But that is not the statement made.
Our group has agreed that the potential for abuse with the hybrid classes is too much
He is worried about abuse of Hybrid classes when in fact a person with decent system mastery can abuse MOST classes. We are trying to straighten him out on the FACTS.
and that occult just doesn't work well with the campaign.
This is a GOOD reason to ban classes. This we as a community are fine with this decision. I do this when I GM as I ban Occult and Gunslingers (minus Bolt Ace). Because I feel the flavor does not match my games.
But to say this information is completely unhelpful is very misguided. It was also mentioned by several good players who offer good advice. So apparently it is information the community thinks he should know going forward in his life as a GM.
You could have easily left the first paragraph out and your post would have been more helpful than trying to insult the other people's time and advice that they felt he should know in his early career as a GM. You basically insulted several people for nothing.
Yeah, letting someone know that hybrid classes aren't stronger when that was their impression is a fine statement to make.
This guy had to go at "he read the modules". This is unacceptable unless you've made allowances beforehand. You've also shackled yourself to him, thinking that you need his character. This is patently untrue. The game works best with four active players, so you have room to boot him from the game and his friend that brought him.
Giving your players huge point builds means you have to adjust the APL for it. You should keep your hand waving and gift giving under control when running a mythic campaign as the players will try to take advantage of you. Even when you give them higher point builds, they still try to stock up by crafting or buying stat boosters.
Back to the original problem. This guy wouldn't have made it to my table after reading the adventure. One or two arguments about rules are all I will take before I hand the dice over and tell the group to run it for themselves while I find another group to play with.
Chess Pwn - When the poster has already said that the rules they have in place work perfectly, telling them they're playing wrong isn't helpful. We don't know what house rules are in place or if those house rules somehow favor the hybrid classes, so saying they're fine when you actually have no idea if they are fine or not, isn't helpful. And whether they're fine or not really doesn't have any bearing on the current issue the poster is having.
Louise Bishop - The poster never said that the hybrid classes we're "OP" he simply stated that thery were not options, and as I said above, you have no idea if they're fine or not in the posters game. Telling someone what works or doesn't work in their game, isn't helpful
The poster also specifically said that he was able to adjust to the higher point values. He has already said the problem you think he may have, isn't a problem.
Sorry for the delayed response, work and sleep prevented me from checking this until now.
I've read though all the responses here and I thank you all for your help and advice. I think I have decided to remove him from the game. More so than the stats and his character I think the simple fact that he causing a disturbance at the table and is ruining the fun for myself and other players is the deciding factor.
Responses:
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A 27 point buy is way too much:
I know this and I agree. One of the other, more experienced GM's in the group did this once for a game he was running and it allowed us to have powerful characters while still allowing us the resources to "waste" on simple RP and character fluff that added no mechanical advantage. I know this isn't a solution or recommended in a game but it is something that I really enjoyed in his game and wanted to do in mine. It is fine as long as there is an understanding that it should not be abused. Everyone else in the party has chosen to not abuse it.
Don't kill the character:
Once again, I agree. I didn't want it to come to that and I try very hard not to target or intentionally kill a player in my game, just grasping at solutions that don't involve loosing the friend that would leave with the problem player.
Core classes can be abused more that Hybrid:
We have discussed this as a group that we just do not care for some of the abilities and options that these classes allow. Maybe you're right and they are not as potentially broken as core, they are just not for us.
Beyond Morality:
This is not something I am comfortable allowing in an adventure THIS focused on Good vs. Evil and on concepts of atonement and redemption. Furthermore, they way the player brought this up bugged me. He kept mentioning that "you could even play a Paladin/Assassin!". This bothered me when he said it but bothered me even more when, on a suspicious hunch, I looked up mythic guides for power gaming and found a post on GiantInThePlayground that mentioned that Beyond Morality was awesome because "...you could even play a Paladin/Assassin....". This ability may be more appropriate and acceptable in some games but not, in my opinion, for my game or this adventure.
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I have tried not to be a jerk in return to this player but, I am out of options. The meta-game cheating, the power gaming, and the (I didn't mention this part before) bullying of other players into RP'ing the way he wants and controlling the distribution of party loot in his favor, have all gone too far. He is ruining the game for all of us and he will be removed from the game. I mostly came to that decision before posting this thread but wanted to get the opinions of more experienced GM's to see if there was a better way.
Once again, thank you all!
Chess Pwn - When the poster has already said that the rules they have in place work perfectly, telling them they're playing wrong isn't helpful. We don't know what house rules are in place or if those house rules somehow favor the hybrid classes, so saying they're fine when you actually have no idea if they are fine or not, isn't helpful. And whether they're fine or not really doesn't have any bearing on the current issue the poster is having.
Louise Bishop - The poster never said that the hybrid classes we're "OP" he simply stated that thery were not options, and as I said above, you have no idea if they're fine or not in the posters game. Telling someone what works or doesn't work in their game, isn't helpful
The poster also specifically said that he was able to adjust to the higher point values. He has already said the problem you think he may have, isn't a problem.
Our group has agreed that the potential for abuse with the hybrid classes is too much
This player definitely sounds like a problem, but a newer GM and Mythic rules is just a recipe for disaster. Higher pt buy not so much. So inexperienced GM, people are bound to add advice and some things are just factually true, like hybrid classes are not overpowered by themselves.
Another note I'd like to add, so player read the AP and is acting like a jerk, but lots of people just add, he read the AP he should be banned immediately...why? I read the almost whole Reign of Winter that we are currently playing (as I'm the one who suggested it to our GM), I don't spoil the the fun for other players and don't metagame my choices through AP, so what's the problem with reading the AP exactly?
EDIT: to OP, I'll echo the others, and say it's just time to cut your loses, and boot the guy.
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Why is power gaming bad?
It's bad when only 1 player of a table is doing it, because an imbalance of a party is a pretty big problem to deal with.