Basically, the familiar's hit point total is overwritten by any other bonuses it may gain. If you gave the familiar +4 to its constitution, it also wouldn't gain any more hit points.
If the master has it then yes they indirectly benefit.
ie: 10th level master has 50 hp.
Familiar has 25
Master with toughness feat has 60 hp
Familiar has 30 hp
The familiar itself however can't benefit if it has the toughness feat itself while it is a familiar.
A familiar does benefit if its master has the Toughness feat, but the feat does nothing if the familiar has it.
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The rule you originally quoted. The familiar has 1/2 the master's total hit points, regardless of their actual hit dice. CON modifications go towards hit points determined from the hit dice. Toughness adds a hit point per hit die. Therefore, the familiar has 1/2 the master's hit point total, regardless of the familiar's actual hit dice totals.
There is a similar feat in Familiar Folio. Mauler's Endurance: 2 hp per caster's character level. Only available to a Mauler familiar.
Why not just take toughness on the master? It's not a bad feat, helps wizards survive lower levels, and since it will benefit your familiar it works 1.5 times as good for you over others.
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A familiar's HP is equal to half it's master's HP. NOTHING can get around that except mauler's endurance which specifically calls out getting around that. a familiar with or without toughness has HP equal to half it's master's HP. changing con scores, toughness, or anything else, none of it changes that the familiar's HP is half the masters.
There is a similar feat in Familiar Folio. Mauler's Endurance: 2 hp per caster's character level. Only available to a Mauler familiar.
The mauler doesn't take that feat though. The mauler's master has to take it.
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How would the familiar pick up toughness? I know they can share Combat feats with an Eldritch Guardian or Teamwork feats through the Valet Archetype. Since they don't get feats themselves I'm curious how it would snag toughness anyway. Would love additional traits on one of mine but couldn't figure out how to do it.
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Step 1: Calculate your familiar's hit points based on average hit dice for a normal creature of its type.
Step 2: Apply Constitution modifier to hit points.
Step 3: Apply Toughness or any other relevant feats to hit points.
Step 4: Ignore all of the above and give it half the hit points of its master.
This also applies to permanent Intelligence gains and skill ranks.
How would the familiar pick up toughness? I know they can share Combat feats with an Eldritch Guardian or Teamwork feats through the Valet Archetype. Since they don't get feats themselves I'm curious how it would snag toughness anyway. Would love additional traits on one of mine but couldn't figure out how to do it.
All familiars have a feat.
A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.
Like any other creature, it can choose its feats. The feats listed for an animal are simply the typical choice.
In addition, the familiar of a beast-bonded witch can gain feats. Instead of the witch gaining a feat at the appropriate level, she can instead have the familiar gain a feat.
Because Toughness modifies hit points, and the only source of hit points a familiar gains are half it's master's hit points.
Hit Points: The familiar has half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.
Nothing else matters. Increasing its Constitution score doesn't matter. Retraining its hit points doesn't matter. Feats don't matter. It has half it's master's hit points, rounded down.
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Step 1: Calculate your familiar's hit points based on average hit dice for a normal creature of its type.
Step 2: Apply Constitution modifier to hit points.
Step 3: Apply Toughness or any other relevant feats to hit points.
Step 4: Ignore all of the above and give it half the hit points of its master.
This also applies to permanent Intelligence gains and skill ranks.
by that logic no Skill Focus for Familiars either? Decoy familiars will be sad.
A familiar's Skill Ranks, as well as Hit Points, use a different System. This System replaces the usual method to use (Skill Ranks dependant on Int Modifier, Hit Points calculated from HD+Con). These are the Basics. Things like feats and traits are added later, just like the Decoy's Deceitful Bonus feat or Toughness!
You are all assuming something that is not written, and sadly you only write what you think it is, but give no reference to rules.
The text says: Familiar get X hit Points.
You assume: Familiar get X hit Points and cannot get any more by any means.Let's Transfer that thought on Attack Bonus:
Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.The text says: Familiar attacks with BAB+Str or BAB+Dex
Do familiars benefit from weapon Focus (claw)? From an amulet of mighty fists? Yes? So why no Toughness?
Your Skill Focus analogy is incorrect. Skill Focus does not grant ranks. It grants a bonus to a skill. Only ranks are being granted by the Master and what is more, they are not being replaced like hitpoints are.
Your attack bonus analogy is also incorrect because the rules are telling us how to generate elements of the attack bonus (BAB and STR/DEX), not the entire thing.
A familiar's hitpoints are unique in that they are being completely and totally replaced by 1/2 of the Master's HP total.
Sure, calculate familiars HP, feel free to give it Toughness, but then all of that gets replaced with 1/2 of the Master's HP total because the rules tell us to do that.
Step 1: Calculate your familiar's hit points based on average hit dice for a normal creature of its type.
Step 2: Apply Constitution modifier to hit points.
Step 3: Apply Toughness or any other relevant feats to hit points.
Step 4: Ignore all of the above and give it half the hit points of its master.
This also applies to permanent Intelligence gains and skill ranks.
by that logic no Skill Focus for Familiars either? Decoy familiars will be sad.
A familiar's Skill Ranks, as well as Hit Points, use a different System. This System replaces the usual method to use (Skill Ranks dependant on Int Modifier, Hit Points calculated from HD+Con). These are the Basics. Things like feats and traits are added later, just like the Decoy's Deceitful Bonus feat or Toughness!
You are all assuming something that is not written, and sadly you only write what you think it is, but give no reference to rules.
The text says: Familiar get X hit Points.
You assume: Familiar get X hit Points and cannot get any more by any means.Let's Transfer that thought on Attack Bonus:
Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.The text says: Familiar attacks with BAB+Str or BAB+Dex
Do familiars benefit from weapon Focus (claw)? From an amulet of mighty fists? Yes? So why no Toughness?
Hit Point and Skill Rank argument is fallacious. Skill Focus has no effect on how many skill ranks the familiar, or any being, has. At best this is debate misdirection. Poor form for an Academic.
The Toughness feat is general for whatever creature can take it. Unfortunately, familiars have a specific rule on on Hit Points:
Hit Points: The familiar has half the master's total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.
Specific trumps general. The mauler hit point feat is more specific than the specific familiar rules/description, so it works, obviously.
Since Weapon Focus does not change BAB, there is no conflict. Pointing out that it wasn't specifically cited in the clarification of how stats effect melee attack is misdirection as well.If you want the mega HP familiar, I would go with the temporary hit point route, as temporary hit points do not always conflict with real HP caps.
Now you are misdirecting with your BAB/Attack bonus confusion.
The familiar decription I cited does not explain what the familiars BAB is but what his attack bonus is - yes, the stuff you add to your d20 to see if you hit. Weapon focus affects that.Toughness does not alter the familiars HD, it alters his HP - the result at the end.
Now you cannot say "Hit Points are half of master's" and disallow any additions through feats when one line below it says "Attack bonus is BAB+Str" and you still add weapon focus as a legtimate alteration.
Maybe paizo intended to cap HP with these lines, I don't want to argue that. But this ks not RAW and it's neither logical.
I agree however that the skill focus analogy went wrong. I was only referring to the order of the 4 steps that you got wrong.
Attacks: Use the master’s attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.
BASE attack bonus, not "attack bonus".
It was in your own quote, I suggest you reread your own post.Regarding your "Hit Dice" argument, lets look at hit dice defined.
Hit Dice (HD): Hit Dice represent a creature’s general level of power and skill. As a creature gains levels, it gains additional Hit Dice. Monsters, on the other hand, gain racial Hit Dice, which represent the monster’s general prowess and ability. Hit Dice are represented by the number the creature possesses followed by a type of die, such as “3d8.” This value is used to determine a creature’s total hit points. In this example, the creature has 3 Hit Dice. When rolling for this creature’s hit points, you would roll a d8 three times and add the results together, along with other modifiers.
As per this text, Hit Dice includes the modifiers to hit dice. Thus we have:
Hit Points: The familiar has half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.
Which means: regardless of its actual Hit Dice and modifiers.
There it is, in black and white in the rules.
Hit Dice includes the modifiers to hit dice folks.
Professor,
Assuming you aren't PFS:
If you are the GM, play it how you want to.
If you aren't, we aren't going to give you ammunition to use against your GM.
Ruleswise, the consensus is that you are wrong.
You can always hit the ask James Jacobs thread if you want a moderately more official answer. Wesley's advice applies there though.
Just cast greater false life on your familiar with the share spell familiar ability.
I think all the people saying that familiars can't benefit from the Toughness feat, for lack of a more respectful way of putting it, are wrong. Nothing really supports that stance; it is merely an assumption with no foundation anywhere in the rules.
The only question should be whether the familiar gets +3 hit points (or +1/HD, whichever is more), or +1/master's HD (I for one believe it is the former, sadly).
Isn't this really an irrelevant discussion since familiars also don't ever gain feats? I can see where on some rare occasions you could argue about swapping a feat that an improved familiar has for some other feat... but whether improved or vanilla variety, familiars just don't ever gain feats, do they?
Or am I missing something?
but whether improved or vanilla variety, familiars just don't ever gain feats, do they?
Not normally, but there are are a few class abilities to give your familiar feats. Eldritch Guardian can share its combat feats and the Beast Bonded witch can give up its feats to its familiar.
The rule is that a familiar's HP is half the master's, not that it's calculated or it's base HP is half the master's.
Thus toughness can't apply because we ignore the normal rules for finding HP for the familiar's special rule.
The majority seem to be saying the same thing, that the rules say the familiar's HP is half the master's and thus can't benefit from toughness due to the exact wording and rules structure. Just because we come to an opposite conclusion as you doesn't mean we didn't get there by just as rigorous a means.
Isn't this really an irrelevant discussion since familiars also don't ever gain feats? I can see where on some rare occasions you could argue about swapping a feat that an improved familiar has for some other feat... but whether improved or vanilla variety, familiars just don't ever gain feats, do they?
Or am I missing something?
As I posted before, all familiars (improved or not) do have a feat. Becoming a familiar does not cause the creature to lose the feats a normal creature of its type has. So all familiars have a feat they can potentially swap out for Toughness. And there is at least one familiar that can gain feats (the familiar for a beast-bonded witch).
Quite right Chess Pwn, but the rule for determining familiar hit points doesn't necessarily preclude Toughness as you and others assert. It's just as valid, currently, to say Toughness applies on top of the familiar's base hit points as not.
I retract my earlier statement that you and others were wrong. That was wrong of me, just as much as it is for you and others to be stating your views as absolute fact. It's impossible to know, as written, what the intent of this rules interaction should be. Probably make for a decent FAQ candidate.
Are there any AP or modules where the familiar has toughness?
Nuglub Gremlins have toughness.
the reasoning is this. Rules say that you add your con mod for each HD you have to get HP. So increased con would increase your HP. But an increase of con doesn't up a familiar's HP, because it's not calculating it's HP bet getting it's HP from it's master. So a rule of "a familiar's hp is half of master's and you ignore the normal HP it'd have" seems more correct than, "ignore the normal rules for hp, get half your master's hp, and then add in toughness as per the normal rules would have"
the reasoning is this. Rules say that you add your con mod for each HD you have to get HP. So increased con would increase your HP. But an increase of con doesn't up a familiar's HP, because it's not calculating it's HP bet getting it's HP from it's master. So a rule of "a familiar's hp is half of master's and you ignore the normal HP it'd have" seems more correct than, "ignore the normal rules for hp, get half your master's hp, and then add in toughness as per the normal rules would have"
^^This^^
I think the 'the specific trumps the general' which has been mentioned by the developers a number of times here.
How hit points are calculated is a general rule. Feats are more specific than that.
The text for familiars is even more specific: The familiar has half the master's total hit points. There is no modification for the familiar's CON, and there is no other indication that other things affect familiar hit points.
The Mauler's Endurance Feat explicitly (or more specifically, if you prefer) notes that it modifies a familiar's hit point.
Quite right Chess Pwn, but the rule for determining familiar hit points doesn't necessarily preclude Toughness as you and others assert. It's just as valid, currently, to say Toughness applies on top of the familiar's base hit points as not.
I retract my earlier statement that you and others were wrong. That was wrong of me, just as much as it is for you and others to be stating your views as absolute fact. It's impossible to know, as written, what the intent of this rules interaction should be. Probably make for a decent FAQ candidate.
Agreed that it makes for a good FAQ candidate, but I'll have to be on the other bench for this one. The entry in "Familiars" states that the HP are wholly replaced by one half of the master's HP. There's no exception made in the initial entry for feat bonuses, Con bonuses, etc. It's just a find-and-replace. So, if the familiar has Toughness or benefits from Bear's Endurance, it's hit points are still equal to half of the master's HP. Unlike HD or skills, it does not have another line of text that allows for difference ("whichever is better"). Toughness would apply to the base calculation of HP (as would HD, Con, etc.), then becoming a familiar would override this value.
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Where is the rule that says a familiar can swap out its starting feat for any other feat? I know there is a rule in Animal Archive that allows a familiar to swap out its starting feat for one of five specific "Familiar" feats, none of which is toughness. I'm not aware of a rule that allows any other swapping of feats.
Where is the rule that says a familiar can swap out its starting feat for any other feat? I know there is a rule in Animal Archive that allows a familiar to swap out its starting feat for one of five specific "Familiar" feats, none of which is toughness. I'm not aware of a rule that allows any other swapping of feats.
Where's the rule saying they can't?
Like any other creature, their general feats aren't set in stone and can be switched out for other feats that they qualify for.
Nothing expressly prohibits that with familiars, so you default to the standard rule for all creatures and characters, which is that feats are mutable/interchangeable.
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Use the basic statistics for a creature of the familiar’s kind, but with the following changes.
There is no feats section listed in the following changes. Therefore you use the creature's basic statistics. That is why Animal Archive needed to create a rule saying that you can swap a familiar's starting feats for the feats listed in that book, instead of just saying they were legal feats for a familiar to take.
EDIT: In other words, you don't build a familiar from scratch. You start with what is in their bestiary entry, which includes their starting feats, and you only make the changes listed in the familiars section. A GM can certainly allow you to build a familiar from scratch, using the creature design guidelines, but that is a house rule and not the rule laid out in the book.
Ferious Thune is correct, without a rule stating you can swap out a familiar's feats you cannot.
Now, the GM can always swap out feats on any creature, but that is not the same as a player swapping feats on a familiar unless there is a rule that says they can.
Where is the rule that says a familiar can swap out its starting feat for any other feat? I know there is a rule in Animal Archive that allows a familiar to swap out its starting feat for one of five specific "Familiar" feats, none of which is toughness. I'm not aware of a rule that allows any other swapping of feats.Where's the rule saying they can't?
Like any other creature, their general feats aren't set in stone and can be switched out for other feats that they qualify for.
Nothing expressly prohibits that with familiars, so you default to the standard rule for all creatures and characters, which is that feats are mutable/interchangeable.
Without GM Fiat you get the book version of the animal. Unlike the animal companion rules you don't get to "build your buddy" with a familiar.
Step 1: Calculate your familiar's hit points based on average hit dice for a normal creature of its type.
Step 2: Apply Constitution modifier to hit points.
Step 3: Apply Toughness or any other relevant feats to hit points.
Step 4: Ignore all of the above and give it half the hit points of its master.
Why not do this?
Step 1: Calculate your familiar's hit points based on average hit dice for a normal creature of its type.
Step 2: Apply Constitution modifier to hit points.
Step 3: Ignore all of the above and give it half the hit points of its master.
Step 4: Apply feats that modify hit points.
That way Mauler's Endurance will work.
Toughness says it increases hit points of anyone who takes it. That seems more specific than the general rule for calculating a familiar's hit points.
Or maybe this takes precedence over everything:
Hit Points: The familiar has half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.
In which case, presumably it also takes precedence over the general rule that creatures lose hit points when they take damage, meaning that familiars cannot be physically harmed.
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." – Ancient Proverb
The rules for familiars are clear on hit points, whether you choose to believe them or not. No amount of reductio ad absurdum will change that you only get half the master's hit points. Both the RAW and intent of the rules are crystal clear on this.
Step 3: Ignore all of the above and give it half the hit points of its master.
Step 4: Apply feats that modify hit points.
A huge part of this is historic. At the time the familiar rules were written, all you had was the (3.0e) Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, and Monster Manual. The rules for familiars were clear and unambiguous because there weren't (to my knowledge) familiars that had Toughness by default. And there certainly was no way to get a a familiar that feat. The intent - and rules - were clear. If the master has X hit points, the familiar has X/2. Period.
Years go by, editions change, and suddenly there are some edge conditions where a familiar can gain a feat.
In my mind, I take the historic context into mind. It was - to me - obvious what was intended 15 years ago; what was written. The devs wanted familiars to have half of the master's hit points. Not more. So that's the bias I apply to reading the rules.
That way Mauler's Endurance will work.
Sure, but again, that's a new rule that supersedes the general, old rules.
Toughness says it increases hit points of anyone who takes it. That seems more specific than the general rule for calculating a familiar's hit points.
It does. Problem for me is that Toughness is an ancient feat, from PHB. And a decade and a half ago when 3.0e was being written, Toughness wasn't a thing for familiars. It was a thing for PCs and monsters.
Is it game-breaking to let it work for a familiar? No. Is it how familiars were designed? Also no. Is Mauler's Endurance? Well, evidently. But stacking the two? Not so much.
Or maybe this takes precedence over everything:
Hit Points: The familiar has half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.In which case, presumably it also takes precedence over the general rule that creatures lose hit points when they take damage, meaning that familiars cannot be physically harmed.
I hear your argument, and it's frustrating. Fortunately, that's not how things work. Without the time to go quote the damage rules, there are a bunch that make it clear a creature has (at least) two pools. They have their maximum hit points and their current hit points. Some things increase your maximum hit points. Damage reduces your current hit points. And if your current hit points are below -Con, you're dead. The familiar "half master" rule governs the creature's normal state... its maximum hit points. It's a huge stretch to apply creature base stat generation rules to overriding the rules that govern what you do after you generate stats, when you actually play the game.
A familiar only has one actual hit die. So at best you're looking at the bigger of
[familiar hd +con +3] or [1/2 Masters HP]
Which should really be pointless after a level or 2
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It's my understanding that the Approximating Familiars section is mainly for creating familiars that do not already exist. Of course, if your GM is using that optional section, then you would follow the rules there. That is very different than saying any familiar can swap out its starting feats in any circumstance, which is what seems to be what Ravingdork is claiming.
I honestly don't know what Toughness would do for a familiar. I lean towards agreeing with everyone else that it doesn't do anything. But I could see a GM allowing it. It's still only going to grant 3 HP, since familiars are 1 HD. In that case, even a feat like Dodge would be better.
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For the record, increasing your familiar's HP is as easy as increasing your own HP. There's not a ton of need for lots of feats to boost the familiar, when it's easy to boost yourself.
-Increases to the master's CON score will increase their HP, and that of their familiar. Barbarian's familiars are especially amusing, as they gain HP when their master rages. The Raging Vitality feat can futher increase the master's CON while raging. Bear's Endurance would also work, as would any polymorph effect that increased their Master's CON.
-Increases to the Master's actual HP, also increase the HP of the familiar. For feats, Tribal Scars add +6 HP to the master (+3 to the familiar). Toughness is mentioned already. A toad/chicken familiar, gives their master a +3 HP bonus while within a mile of their master, which will increase the familiar's HP by +1.5 (so at first level, with Tribal Scars and Toughness, a toad/chicken could be +6 HP over that of another familiar without these feats).
-And then that Mauler Endurance feat can further add familiar HP.