Why not add strength to AC?while i would love that for like 90% of my characters i think str to (dr/-,resistances) would fit more(your muscles are so dence you take less damage from attacks)
That has its own serious problems. The bonuses are either so feeble that they are essentially useless, or powerful enough that a strong man can stand in a fire and then take numerous stab wounds with little to no injury. I don't think there is an in between space either - it is probably possible to do both at the same time - feeble bonuses that still lead to RP weirdness.
If I *had* to give strength some sort of defensive benefit, I would probably just make it give extra HP, but at a reduced rate compared to Con (probably 1/2 HP per str mod per level). This would decrease the need for Con on tough characters, increase it for dex based characters and wizards with muscle atrophy, and gives hulking, muscly, indomitable types better physical survivability in exchange for not having good AC from high dex.
Really, most of the "nice things" you could possibly give to STR would be taken or copied from CON (unless you're just being silly). Maybe STR and CON should be merged, but that doesn't quite make complete sense either. All the systems I've played in keep the two separate.
For that matter, in my limited experience of other systems, it seems
like most do not use STR for melee accuracy:
Palladium: Physical Prowess (i.e. Dexterity) to hit and Physical Strength for damage.
FFG 40k (Dark Heresy, Only War, etc): Weapon Skill is its own attribute, Strength adds to melee damage. Most melee Talents require only a certain WS, but cost more if you don't have the right Aptitudes (almost all are based on WS+Offense, WS+Defense, or WS+Finesse as appropriate).
Savage Worlds: Fighting is a skill based on Agility. A character with poor Agility can have Fighting skill on par with a high Agility character, but it costs him more. Strength improves your damage die.
Out of curiosity, can people who have played other systems chime in?
I like the idea of adding Str to AC when using a shield... Maybe half modifier? Or just use Con instead?
The STR-to-accuracy thing is because the base assumption WAY back even before D&D was published was that hitting the target was basically assumed, it was getting through their shield and armor that was the problem. It's an artifact of D&D being adapted from wargaming, and it's why older versions had charts of which armor types gave how much armor against which attack types.
Most other systems are Dex-accuracy that I know of. Exalted 2e had a "Savage Strike" trait that allowed you to substitute Str-accuracy in melee, I saw that taken exactly once, and that character didn't survive to regret dumping Dex. Of course, in Exalted Dex was THE stat. Physical-primary characters typically maxed Dex as a given (except for certain shapechangers who might be better served with Con); other specializations put their limited Physical points into Dex as well (except for combat sorcerers who might go Con). Str was a "nice to have but not required" stat for the majority of characters.
White wolf is generally pretty bad at combat mechanics, for all the virtue in their game systems. I kind of feel like dex supremacy comes from an overly romanticized view of how feasable it actually is to move out of the way of someone swinging 3 feet of steel at you vs being strong enough to swing it quickly for a long time and strong enough to parry or block without them breaking through your guard and knocking you on your ass.
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Personally I think dex should never add to damage. There should always be a mechanic in place to make up for the lack of str to damage for a class that doesn't use strength. mostly just so a (metaphorical) gnat with its huge size bonus to dex doesn't kill (meta and literal) bears etc.
Dex already covers so much too saves, skill check, ranged attack rolls. I'm opposed to loading down one stat with everything (wizards still need dex and con and wisdom some what so nya :P)
Always kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha mod
There are a lot of things that I like about how 4e did things, but the issue I always had with this system was mostly-
"What character would honestly prefer to have high strength and not high constitution?"
It seems like everybody who wants high STR also wants high CON (and probably also has good fort saves from their class) so this only really meaningfully affects the other two.
I do like the way 13A does it though, where your defensive stats are based on the middle one of three stats (e.g. you add to AC the modifier which is neither the lowest nor highest between Dex, Wis, and Con).
a construct or undead wouldnt need a high conAlways kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha modThere are a lot of things that I like about how 4e did things, but the issue I always had with this system was mostly-
"What character would honestly prefer to have high strength and not high constitution?"
It seems like everybody who wants high STR also wants high CON (and probably also has good fort saves from their class) so this only really meaningfully affects the other two.
I do like the way 13A does it though, where your defensive stats are based on the middle one of three stats (e.g. you add to AC the modifier which is neither the lowest nor highest between Dex, Wis, and Con).
But they also don't have to worry about fort saves.
Always kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha modThere are a lot of things that I like about how 4e did things, but the issue I always had with this system was mostly-
"What character would honestly prefer to have high strength and not high constitution?"
It seems like everybody who wants high STR also wants high CON (and probably also has good fort saves from their class) so this only really meaningfully affects the other two.
I do like the way 13A does it though, where your defensive stats are based on the middle one of three stats (e.g. you add to AC the modifier which is neither the lowest nor highest between Dex, Wis, and Con).
Its true, but i wouldn't discount the option of dex. There's more than a few builds that want a solid strength and dex. Archers being the most predominant.
One of the biggest problems with Dex-to-damage can be solved with a relatively simple fix: make it dexterity in addition to strength rather than instead of it. At first glance this looks really overpowered, but in practice actually nerfs the most min-maxed builds so it doesn't have serious repercussions. This completely eliminates the strength dumping problem; you can still choose to dump strength, of course, but you actually get penalized for doing so.
The "housecat" problem is easily solved by making the feat only apply to manufactured weapons.
The housecat problem is already solved if we're doing Dex + Strength. Cats have a Str of 3, so by combining their Dex bonus and Str penalty, we get: 2 claws +4 (1d2–2), bite +4 (1d3–2).
Still a little more dangerous to the average human than is realistic, but not enough to harm game balance.
One of the biggest problems with Dex-to-damage can be solved with a relatively simple fix: make it dexterity in addition to strength rather than instead of it. At first glance this looks really overpowered, but in practice actually nerfs the most min-maxed builds so it doesn't have serious repercussions. This completely eliminates the strength dumping problem; you can still choose to dump strength, of course, but you actually get penalized for doing so.
The "housecat" problem is easily solved by making the feat only apply to manufactured weapons.
The housecat problem is already solved if we're doing Dex + Strength. Cats have a Str of 3, so by combining their Dex bonus and Str penalty, we get: 2 claws +4 (1d2–2), bite +4 (1d3–2).
Still a little more dangerous to the average human than is realistic, but not enough to harm game balance.
Dex + Str actually becomes more dangerous in the hands of Str-based creatures. A lot of Medium- and Large-sized Str-based creatures (including PC's) still have a medium-to-high Dex score. These creatures are already at their current CR because of their damage-output. Adding MORE damage from their Dex is going to unbalance things.
I've always been an advocate for Str- or Dex-to-hit, and then Weapon Finesse can be taken to make it Str + 1/2 Dex to damage. This makes it so Str-based creatures' damage (again, including PC's) can't double with a feat, but other creatures with insanely high Dex scores can still deal respectable damage despite having low Str
I suspect it wouldn't unbalance things much in most situations. There are lots of monsters with Str of 30-40, but very few with massive Dex. You could give everyone a couple of extra HP per hit die to compensate for the increased melee damage output.
Just make it dex modifier, but you only add strength if it's a penalty.
Always kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha mod
On the surface of it, all I can see this actually doing is boosting the wizard's Reflex save.
On the surface of it, all I can see this actually doing is boosting the wizard's Reflex save.
A little, but Wizards already tend to value Dex as a secondary stat anyways, so not by that much.
Honestly the main benefit to that system was making Charisma a viable stat to invest in for characters who don't rely on it rather than a universal dump stat. Con is still better than Str and Dex is still better than Int so it didn't have as much effect on those categories.
Always kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha mod
Another thing to remember is that 4e had a different stat philosophy all together. All classes used their favored ability score to attack and deal damage.
On the surface of it, all I can see this actually doing is boosting the wizard's Reflex save.Always kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha mod
It would also increase all the martial's fort saves, and the Sorcerer and oracle's will save.
It would also reduce the paladin's will save because of the new ability-score-as-source ruling.
Dex + Str actually becomes more dangerous in the hands of Str-based creatures. A lot of Medium- and Large-sized Str-based creatures (including PC's) still have a medium-to-high Dex score. These creatures are already at their current CR because of their damage-output. Adding MORE damage from their Dex is going to unbalance things.
To be clear, I do not allow this with two-handed weapons (other than explicitly finessable ones like ECB). This means that you need to downsize your greatsword to a longsword to take advantage, and to come out ahead after the damage dice drop you need at least 18 dexterity. Since I do charge a feat for this (the traditional weapon finesse effect is free, dex-plus-str-to-damage costs a feat) that means strength-based characters typically only grab the feat if they planned on using a one-handed weapon anyways or at higher levels after getting a str/dex belt.
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Always kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha mod
I've always felt that Willpower was more related to Charisma than Wisdom, and it'd make Charisma less of a dump stat while making Wisdom less of a "you MUST have this if you're not a caster" stat.
I've always felt that Willpower was more related to Charisma than Wisdom, and it'd make Charisma less of a dump stat while making Wisdom less of a "you MUST have this if you're not a caster" stat.Always kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha mod
I think it may swing the pendulum the other way, though.
If you don't need Wisdom for casting, and you don't need it for Will saves, only one person in the group needs the Perception skill, esp. with the recent trapfinding nerf to the Perception skill.
I think there's a plausible argument for using any of the three mental stats as the basis of Will save. Charisma is sheer force of personality, Wisdom is perceptiveness and intuition, Intelligence covers mental discipline and focus. However, no matter which one you choose that leaves two other mental stats that don't contribute to any saving throw.
I think it would be better if you added all your stat mods to saves for example:
Str mod + Con mod = Fort mod
Dex mod + Int mod = Ref mod
Wis mod + Cha mod = Will mod
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I've always felt that Willpower was more related to Charisma than Wisdom, and it'd make Charisma less of a dump stat while making Wisdom less of a "you MUST have this if you're not a caster" stat.Always kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha modI think it may swing the pendulum the other way, though.
If you don't need Wisdom for casting, and you don't need it for Will saves, only one person in the group needs the Perception skill, esp. with the recent trapfinding nerf to the Perception skill.
That's fair, yeah. Hmm... Maybe it should either be the 4e way, or even 5e with every stat having a save.
EDIT: Dragon 78's idea immediately strikes me as the best option, honestly. (Though I'd go for Wisdom adding to Reflex and Intelligence adding to Will.)
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Strength doesn't help one block a blow against them unless that's how the individual is choose to weather a strike; a thousand times more important is a sense of timing, balance, and coordination... i.e. Dexterity. There are entire martial arts forms based on this theory. Strength only helps when the shield is already set and squared to the blow. Dexterity is making sure your feet are properly set and you've moved the shield in the proper trajectory to intercept the incoming strike.
The mechanical reason that Dexterity isn't included in damage and attack bonus is in part because then you virtually make Dex a key ability score for every character. It then helps determine that you move first in combat, that you're harder to be hit, that you hit more frequently, and that your hits do more damage. The majority of warrior types would then be Dex oriented. It unbalances the game. Now, that's not to say that I totally disagree that Dex could be used to imply that a person's strikes are more accurate. The problem is, the d20 system doesn't have a correlation between how accurate a hit is and its damage... EXCEPT where it concerns critical hits. Which sounds to emulate the scenario you're trying to argue for. My personal suggestion if that's what you want to bring about? Perhaps allow that the Dex bonus is added to the confirmation roll of a critical rather than Strength. Showing that the critical is more about a good aim than a strong arm. I say "rather than" because otherwise you're increasing the chances that every confirmation roll is increased. It's better to keep some sense of balance in the mechanics of the system.
In the old skill-based Victory Games 007 game, skills had two key attributes, and you averaged them to get your base skill modifier. Hand-to-hand Combat was (Str + Dex)/2, and Fire Combat was (Dex + Perception)/2, and so on. Because skills were so important, and because they each had two governing attributes, it meant every character was MAD no matter what areas they wanted to focus in.
Strength doesn't help one block a blow against them unless that's how the individual is choose to weather a strike; a thousand times more important is a sense of timing, balance, and coordination... i.e. Dexterity. There are entire martial arts forms based on this theory. Strength only helps when the shield is already set and squared to the blow. Dexterity is making sure your feet are properly set and you've moved the shield in the proper trajectory to intercept the incoming strike.
The mechanical reason that Dexterity isn't included in damage and attack bonus is in part because then you virtually make Dex a key ability score for every character. It then helps determine that you move first in combat, that you're harder to be hit, that you hit more frequently, and that your hits do more damage. The majority of warrior types would then be Dex oriented. It unbalances the game. Now, that's not to say that I totally disagree that Dex could be used to imply that a person's strikes are more accurate. The problem is, the d20 system doesn't have a correlation between how accurate a hit is and its damage... EXCEPT where it concerns critical hits. Which sounds to emulate the scenario you're trying to argue for. My personal suggestion if that's what you want to bring about? Perhaps allow that the Dex bonus is added to the confirmation roll of a critical rather than Strength. Showing that the critical is more about a good aim than a strong arm. I say "rather than" because otherwise you're increasing the chances that every confirmation roll is increased. It's better to keep some sense of balance in the mechanics of the system.
A thousand times more important is the strength of your lower body, none of your timing, set feet, knowing where to move your shield matters at all without the strength to maintain your footing, and ability to move/angle the heavy piece of metal into the way of the other heavy piece of metal fast enough.
Every single martial art intended for fighting rather than performance begins with having a baseline level of strength. Even in modern times when everyone is fighting with guns soldiers pt is aimed at strength and endurance.
I think it would be better if you added all your stat mods to saves for example:
Str mod + Con mod = Fort mod
Dex mod + Int mod = Ref mod
Wis mod + Cha mod = Will mod
That could work... But how would you make saving throws different between classes without raising the bonus way too high?
I think it would be better if you added all your stat mods to saves for example:
Str mod + Con mod = Fort mod
Dex mod + Int mod = Ref mod
Wis mod + Cha mod = Will mod
I've tried this, similar to how I tried Str+Dex to damage, and this one has a lot of unwanted baggage. It generally results in higher saving throws, but it's quite uneven. You'll get some massive saves and some reduced saves, making the system much more volatile. Even if you're okay with huge gulfs between strong and weak saves in some cases, you still end up with weirdness like the Wizard having an amazing reflex save. While I do think this approach is quite elegant in principle, it has a lot of problems in practice that lead me to abandon it.
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That could work... But how would you make saving throws different between classes without raising the bonus way too high?I think it would be better if you added all your stat mods to saves for example:
Str mod + Con mod = Fort mod
Dex mod + Int mod = Ref mod
Wis mod + Cha mod = Will mod
My suggestion would be to not. MAD characters seem to need the help, and the characters most likely to have both of the stats involved are the ones for whom the save is most thematic.
With high Con and Str, you're probably a Paladin, Barbarian or Fighter, and I think you deserve to be able to push through most physical ailments if you're already superhumanly strong and tough.
If you have high Dex and Int, you're likely a Rogue, Magus, Alchemist... someone who's used to dodging around the place and is right up close needing to be able to dodge the odd fireball. Especially useful for Explodey the Goblin Alchemist. (Also I love the idea of a good Rogue with Evasion being able to dodge explosions while he's in them. Just that little bit of 8-Bit-Theatre awesomeness.)
With high Wisdom and Charisma together, you're either a Cleric or the party Face, which means that your mind is either completely devoted to a deity and as such is impregnable, or you're so used to navigating social minefields that mental attacks will just slip right on by.
EDIT: However, Dasrak's experience on this is probably more valuable than my conjecture.
honestly I'd rather wizards have good reflexes than such absurd will saves. Never made a lot of sense to me, but that's another topic.
I also think the argument on how realistic strength to X or dexterity to Y is or is not isn't particularly helpful either. The stats are incredibly abstract concepts and if we were being realistic all six of your stats would probably end up helping to contribute to combat in some way and that would just be a total mess.
Strength doesn't help one block a blow against them unless that's how the individual is choose to weather a strike; a thousand times more important is a sense of timing, balance, and coordination... i.e. Dexterity. There are entire martial arts forms based on this theory. Strength only helps when the shield is already set and squared to the blow. Dexterity is making sure your feet are properly set and you've moved the shield in the proper trajectory to intercept the incoming strike.
The mechanical reason that Dexterity isn't included in damage and attack bonus is in part because then you virtually make Dex a key ability score for every character. It then helps determine that you move first in combat, that you're harder to be hit, that you hit more frequently, and that your hits do more damage. The majority of warrior types would then be Dex oriented. It unbalances the game. Now, that's not to say that I totally disagree that Dex could be used to imply that a person's strikes are more accurate. The problem is, the d20 system doesn't have a correlation between how accurate a hit is and its damage... EXCEPT where it concerns critical hits. Which sounds to emulate the scenario you're trying to argue for. My personal suggestion if that's what you want to bring about? Perhaps allow that the Dex bonus is added to the confirmation roll of a critical rather than Strength. Showing that the critical is more about a good aim than a strong arm. I say "rather than" because otherwise you're increasing the chances that every confirmation roll is increased. It's better to keep some sense of balance in the mechanics of the system.
A thousand times more important is the strength of your lower body, none of your timing, set feet, knowing where to move your shield matters at all without the strength to maintain your footing, and ability to move/angle the heavy piece of metal into the way of the other heavy piece of metal fast enough.
Every single martial art intended for fighting rather than performance begins with having a baseline level of strength. Even in modern times when everyone is fighting with guns soldiers pt is aimed at strength and endurance.
A modicum of strength is required when one actively blocks, yes. However,you know what is even better than blocking a strike someone aims at you? Not being there at all, side-stepping (or similar maneuver) the attack completely. Because this system has to take into consideration that not every opponent is going to have a heavy piece of metal. Some might be a flying pixie, zipping out of the way of a hit. It simply doesn't work if you try to take that baseline of strength concept of what a human or human-similar race would require and expect other beings to operate in that same framework. Str and Dex are abstracts that have to be able to apply to other creatures in the game and the mechanics of combat as well. If you make too many rules to point out exceptions, then you clog down the system and make it clunky to run every combat.
honestly I'd rather wizards have good reflexes than such absurd will saves. Never made a lot of sense to me, but that's another topic.
Only two classes (CRB Monk and Vigilante) have a good Will save and no spellcasting, and the latter has a few spellcasting archetypes. I guess you need to have a lot of willpower to cast spells.
A modicum of strength is required when one actively blocks, yes. However,you know what is even better than blocking a strike someone aims at you? Not being there at all, side-stepping (or similar maneuver) the attack completely.
And thats a legitimate defense for an abstract combat system in a fantasy game. But its directly opposed by how quickly people can swing their weapon at you in melee, which is why strength is the to hit.
Strength and reflexes (dexterity) determines how fast you can move a shield, a weapon, or even your body mass. I have yet to see any martial arts training that doesn't include strength and stamina training.
The problem of declaring Pathfinder to be "Abstract" is that it isn't universally so.
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There are actually quite a few good ideas buried in 4e (like Minion rules) that got thrown out because 4e was so terrible people assumed every part of it was bad.Always kind of thought the one aspect of 4th ed that should be adopted was this:
Fort save = highest of str or con mod
Ref save = highest of Int or Dex mod
Will save = highest of Wis or Cha mod
I hated the minion mechanics.
I didn't hate 4e, but it was 4e that drove me away from the publisher.
Welp, this looks like a martial arts style debate.
As an Aikido practitioner, I favor deflections and getting out of the way before they hit me. Honestly though I feel like Aikido is WIS based with a specific focus on not needing STR or DEX... (Whole other spiel.)
Anyways, bunch of martial arts don't use blocks and instead use deflections and entries to avoid getting hit. Makes sense if you're unarmed and up against someone with a weapon, and a single hit hurts a LOT.
However I could see using Strength if you're some sort of Spartan Phalanx Soldier holding the line, and all your friends forming a shield wall together means you are pretty safe from blows.
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Whereas in HEMA, the swordsy one, you require every single stat with the exception of Charisma (you usually feint with your Int score and intimidation comes from skill). Dexterity for edge alignment and footwork, Strength for physically blocking and general power, Constitution because it's exhausting, Intelligence to see openings and manoeuvre appropriately, and Wisdom to read your opponent.
Dexterity and Strength go up and down in usefulness; two-handed weapons require more Dex than Str (truly), while one-handed requires much more Str although of course Dex is still important for edge-alignment reasons. The exception would be the Rapier, which is one-handed and accuracy-dependant, although you still need a baseline Str to ram it home.
Real-life Knights were some of the most skillful, elegant martial artists in the world... which is why I feel like the Fighter class is rather unfortunate; it encourages a simplistic, skill-less playstyle that simply would not have held up in any sort of reasonable combat.
Obviously this sort of system couldn't apply to a game with a limited stat-total, since it'd nerf Fighters while buffing Wizards; all martials become MAD. However, you could also have Casters require many stats too: Charisma force-of-willpower for DCs, Intelligence to know how to cast or Wisdom to interpret the will of your Deity, Dexterity for accuracy, Constitution to prevent your brain being levered out your ear...
I am NOT recommending this, but if you want to simulate, why not go whole-hog?
In the old skill-based Victory Games 007 game, skills had two key attributes, and you averaged them to get your base skill modifier. Hand-to-hand Combat was (Str + Dex)/2, and Fire Combat was (Dex + Perception)/2, and so on. Because skills were so important, and because they each had two governing attributes, it meant every character was MAD no matter what areas they wanted to focus in.
Wow, someone else who played that game.
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You guys got hella derailed, it's been a roller coaster from start to end o_o