Player has a focused illusionist. I certainly don’t want to punish / nerf / sideline the character. However, much of what he was doing seemed way too powerful for the level of spell vs the results.
Examples:
1) Party fleeing along twisty road in forested hills. Hear Horsemen thundering up from behind. At bend in road he casts a Silent Image of a large boulder. Party just hides inside boulder until horsemen are long gone. Since they just ride around it, there is no interaction with the illusion. So they don’t get a save. Single first level spell to completely and easily avoid a CR 8 encounter.
2) Party approaching pier in small fishing boat. Moderately windy/wavy ocean. Cast Major Image on the spar sticking from the front of the boat. Image is just the sight sound of the rest of the nearby ocean. No interaction, no save. Complete surprise at nearly melee range against the royal guard on the wharf. I single 3rd level spell is better than invisibility for the entire boat and all the people on it.
3) Party sets ambush for medium sized infantry detachment using Silent Image. Early morning, as infantry approach edge of forest, they see illusion of a few platforms about 15’ to 20’ up in the trees with armored skeleton archers. The skeletons appear to shoot at the infantry while the party does shoot at them through the illusion. If it looks like any of the return fire from the infantry looks to be even close to hitting the skeletons, the illusionist adds another arrow stuck in the armor, platform, or tree limb. I decided that any of the infantry that ‘hit’ the skeletons would count as interaction and gave them a save. But as standard low level warriors, almost all of them had to roll 19 or 20 to make the save. None of them did for several rounds. A first level spell was nearly as good as improved invisibility for the whole party.
4) Major Image of several known local powerful monsters climbing over keep wall. Party intima-tank calling for surrender. Since fight hasn’t started, no interaction yet, so no save. One spell and 1 good skill check to conquer a keep.
Other than the undead, this one character is pretty much wrecking the entire campaign unless I incredibly ramp up the opposition. These just seems way too potent and far reaching effects for low level spells, but maybe that is just me. Is this right? Was I allowing them to do too much? Not giving saves when I should?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Illusions are always sticky.
Here is a 4 Part primer (1, 2, 3 and 4) on Illusions and ways to help adjudicate them.
I think some of your Illusions aren't used properly. For instance the Boulder example would require a Glamer and not a Figment. Also, you may want to look at higher level spells (such as Veil, Mirage Arcana) and compare them to what your players are doing with the lower level ones.
Creatures and players also get saves based on believability and if they are shown something as fake (whether an arrow flies through something, or it doesn't interact with the leaves falling down, water doesn't hit it in the rain, etc).
Most of the time they need to 'interact' to get the save and thats where GM adjudication is the hardest. Generally as long as they spend the appropriate action, use a sense, and justify it, it counts in my books.
Worse comes to worse, bonk them with Illusions of your own.
|
Ultimate Intrigue has a good guide on illusions.
A simple run down as I see them (maybe over simplified);
Figments fill space.
Glamers cover something.
Patterns affect the mind like hypnotism.
Phantasm images in your mind.
Shadow semi real things.
Make sure you are restricting use based on type of illusion.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
People forget the bold part a lot.
It sounds like your illusionist is very good at preparing to diffuse situation before they arise or setting up for combat. You might try catching them off guard more.
For the record I think you treated the illusions correctly. Also for the record, although they avoided a CR8 encounter they didn't do the encounter any harm and I wouldn't grant EXP for the encounter.
For the record I think you treated the illusions correctly.
I'm skeptical about the boulder example. The Level 4 spell, Hallucinatory Terrain, specifically states that one cannot hide within the illusion. To do so requires the Level 5 Mirage Arcana. I can't see the Level 1 Silent Image allowing such a thing.
I
I'm skeptical about the boulder example. The Level 4 spell, Hallucinatory Terrain, specifically states that one cannot hide within the illusion. To do so requires the Level 5 Mirage Arcana. I can't see the Level 1 Silent Image allowing such a thing.
Well for one thing, I'm basing how the spell works off reading the spell I don't have a vast knowledge of many illusion spells.
But from a practical standpoint The illusion is 3D right? and its not translucent and if something passes through it, it doesn't fade. So practically speaking why can't they sit in it. Even if it wouldn't work I can't really blame the player for not realizing or knowing this.
I'm skeptical about the boulder example. The Level 4 spell, Hallucinatory Terrain, specifically states that one cannot hide within the illusion. To do so requires the Level 5 Mirage Arcana. I can't see the Level 1 Silent Image allowing such a thing.
Well for one thing, I'm basing how the spell works off reading the spell I don't have a vast knowledge of many illusion spells.
But from a practical standpoint The illusion is 3D right? and its not translucent and if something passes through it, it doesn't fade. So practically speaking why can't they sit in it. Even if it wouldn't work I can't really blame the player for not realizing or knowing this.
It may be 3D but there is a mechanical and flavour difference between Figments and Glamers.
I would side with Tsukiyo on this.Also keep in mind many Illusion spells require Concentration to maintain. You can use this to semi-nerf an Illusionist, whether its due to difficult movement, rain, sleet, etc.
I agree that the boulder shouldn't have worked that way. You can create a rock to hide behind with a figment (as long as that figment appears in empty space), but if you're changing or hiding the appearance of something you need a glamour.
I for one enjoy pcs thinking outside the box and illusions push that in a great way! No one uses illusions because it sucks when a GM shuts down your PC concept because they don't like how it works. Illusions are fun. You sound like you've been blessed with experienced players with fun PC ideas. Don't be "that" GM. True seeing is a thing also.
Sounds like you have a good illusionist there.
Now, enemies familiar with the area would know there wasn't a boulder there yesterday. Enemies skilled in tracking would notice that tracks don't go beyond the boulder, and might go back to look. Enemies with scent might notice that the rock smelled like the PCs. Or, if the sun is right, maybe the shadow of the rock doesn't extend as far as it should.
But if none of those cases apply, maybe the enemy just rides onl by, only they're still looking for the PCs,and might be back tomorrow...
I see nothing wrong here.
There are moments like the situation where they are approaching the guards where they would need to make stealth checks.
An illusion does not mask the noises you make.
The greatest advantage the players had here was there ability to prepare.
Replace illusion with casting haste, summoning monsters, make hide attempts, ready bow for free ranged attack, etc.
Preparation is a major advantage, it's why most big bad encounters in standard adventures normally have this edge where they summon 1-3 creatures and have consumed potions. Makes them considerably more dangerous than a random encounter.
One possibility would be to have one of the riders (possibly the last one) somehow interact with the illusion. maybe his horse stumbles and falls through the illusion. Maybe he tries to strike the boulder with his whip (or fist or flat of his blade) in frustration. Maybe he notices something not quite right and stops to examine it more closely - just make something up.
The outcome? The illusion still has a positive effect (the pcs gain surprise, one of the riders is prone and has taken damage from a fall, etc.) but the encounter is not completely bypassed. The Illusionist PC feels they are a useful, contributing member without voiding the encounter. Everyone is happy.
Have you spoken with the other players? are they happy with the Illusionist dominating so many encounters, or is it just the occasional encounter? Is it really a problem or are you getting upset because he bypasses a lot of the encounter you've prepared? I can't really answer these questions, that can only be done by those that were there. Have you spoken with the PC? Maybe he feels bad about making the encounters too easy. Maybe he has some ideas about how you can make it harder for him without spoiling the fun.
If they know there is an illusionist about, why haven't the bad guys started deploying countermeasures? An illusion gives off a magic aura, so why wasn't there a sorcerer with detect magic with the guards on the lookout for suspicious magic auras. It would have given them some warning without completely dispelling the illusion, enabling them to try and dispel it. Again, the PCS get some advantage from their clever thinking without making the encounter a rollover.
I have not yet read the Primer that Hubaris suggested above. I definitely will. Thanks muchly!
.....
...
Have you spoken with the other players? are they happy with the Illusionist dominating so many encounters, or is it just the occasional encounter? Is it really a problem or are you getting upset because he bypasses a lot of the encounter you've prepared?
...
Several players have mentioned in passing that the campaign is much easier than they are used to experiencing. They were expecting more of a challenge. The tank player seems very bored since he has had almost no opportunity to do anything.
I would guess that he is simplifying or bypassing 1/3 to 1/2 of the encounters so far.I couldn't care less about my prepared encounters being wasted. I make lots of encounters that never see any use because I don't know what they will be doing.
Like I said in the beginning, I'm just trying to make sure I am ruling the illusion use correctly.
...
Have you spoken with the PC? Maybe he feels bad about making the encounters too easy. Maybe he has some ideas about how you can make it harder for him without spoiling the fun.
...
I have to be fairly careful about this. this is by far the most power optimizing player in the group. He tends to get very touchy about GM's 'persecuting him for knowing the game very well.'
...
If they know there is an illusionist about, why haven't the bad guys started deploying countermeasures? An illusion gives off a magic aura, so why wasn't there a sorcerer with detect magic with the guards on the lookout for suspicious magic auras. It would have given them some warning without completely dispelling the illusion, enabling them to try and dispel it. Again, the PCS get some advantage from their clever thinking without making the encounter a rollover.
Honestly, so far, they haven't been leaving any witnesses alive or their haven't been anyone who noticed the illusion. Also they have just recently gotten to the point in the campaign where a 'Boss' knowing their abilities and taking steps will make sense. But yes some of that will begin happening shortly.
.....
...
Figments fill space.
Glamers cover something.
...
Not sure I really see any functional difference between these.
...
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.People forget the bold part a lot.
Understood. So far there has been no 'proof' and usually no one successfully disbelieves until mostly too late.
.....
I'm skeptical about the boulder example. The Level 4 spell, Hallucinatory Terrain, specifically states that one cannot hide within the illusion. To do so requires the Level 5 Mirage Arcana. I can't see the Level 1 Silent Image allowing such a thing.
Well for one thing, I'm basing how the spell works off reading the spell I don't have a vast knowledge of many illusion spells.
But from a practical standpoint The illusion is 3D right? and its not translucent and if something passes through it, it doesn't fade. So practically speaking why can't they sit in it. Even if it wouldn't work I can't really blame the player for not realizing or knowing this.
That was my thought and why I am asking.
.....
...
It may be 3D but there is a mechanical and flavour difference between Figments and Glamers.
I would side with Tsukiyo on this.Also keep in mind many Illusion spells require Concentration to maintain. You can use this to semi-nerf an Illusionist, whether its due to difficult movement, rain, sleet, etc.
and
I agree that the boulder shouldn't have worked that way. You can create a rock to hide behind with a figment (as long as that figment appears in empty space), but if you're changing or hiding the appearance of something you need a glamour.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but how/why do you say that? If there is a 3D image that can't be seen through, isn't affected by contact, and is large enough; why can't a char just walk into the middle of it and crouch down motionless? What happens to prevent it working that way.
If you look at an open cave while standing in bright sunlight, all you see is a wall of blackness. That isn't what is there, but that's what it looks like. If someone walks into the cave, you still just see a wall of blackness. How is this any different?
.....
I for one enjoy pcs thinking outside the box and illusions push that in a great way! No one uses illusions because it sucks when a GM shuts down your PC concept because they don't like how it works. Illusions are fun. You sound like you've been blessed with experienced players with fun PC ideas. Don't be "that" GM. True seeing is a thing also.
Agreed. I am trying very hard to not be 'that' GM. If we have been doing it all correctly, so be it. I will just have to find a way to deal.
.....
...
The greatest advantage the players had here was there ability to prepare.Replace illusion with casting haste, summoning monsters, make hide attempts, ready bow for free ranged attack, etc.
...
I agree that prep is a major advantage. But this seems like 1 single buff of level 1-3 is replacing and still better than the combination of all those 6 to 8 buffs of level 1-5.
One possibility would be to have one of the riders (possibly the last one) somehow interact with the illusion. maybe his horse stumbles and falls through the illusion. Maybe he tries to strike the boulder with his whip (or fist or flat of his blade) in frustration. Maybe he notices something not quite right and stops to examine it more closely - just make something up.
Right, or one brushes it with his foot as he rides past, or notices it's the wrong kind of rock for this area, or it's just bigger than any other in the area.
Image on boat? Has to concentrate, calls for check.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not saying you are wrong, but how/why do you say that? If there is a 3D image that can't be seen through, isn't affected by contact, and is large enough; why can't a char just walk into the middle of it and crouch down motionless? What happens to prevent it working that way.If you look at an open cave while standing in bright sunlight, all you see is a wall of blackness. That isn't what is there, but that's what it looks like. If someone walks into the cave, you still just see a wall of blackness. How is this any different?
Well, the cop out answer is that its Magic and thats the rule that the different subschools follow (Glamer, Figment, etc). I don't have a real reason but thats just the way it goes. The other answer would be the unofficial rule that lower level spells shouldn't duplicate higher level effects. What your player is trying to do is duplicating effects such as:
Mirage Arcana
Veil
Hallucinatory Terrain
Illusory Wall
To respond to your query, this is from the reference document:
Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
For a player who you say 'knows the game very well', I feel he is abusing the Illusion rules; because they have defined rules. While I like when my players play outside the box (I play an Illusionist Rogue myself in nearly every system), I feel that the power is being stretched out past what it is capable of doing (duplicating higher level spell effects, using the wrong subschool, etc). I wouldn't allow a Figment to be invisible to some people and not others (thats the realm of the Phantasm), nor would I allow Figments to damage or be real (the realm of the Shadow spell).
Also keep in mind that many Illusion spells do not have sounds unless stated; this makes an Illusion a lot less effective if its quiet.
I can only help provide information, hope it helps!
...
Well, the cop out answer is that its Magic and thats the rule that the different subschools follow (Glamer, Figment, etc). I don't have a real reason but thats just the way it goes.
...
So what is the effect. What do I say happens when he sits on the ground inside his own illusion.
...
The other answer would be the unofficial rule that lower level spells shouldn't duplicate higher level effects. What your player is trying to do is duplicating effects such as:
Ok, that I can get behind.
...
For a player who you say 'knows the game very well', I feel he is abusing the Illusion rules
...
I am sure it is not intentional. This is really the first time he has used illusions other than color spray. His casters have all been either focused evokers of self buff for martial DPS.
Maybe the Illusion doesn't form properly, or it comes out with obvious flaws. Maybe give passer byers a free check because he's improvising a Glamer with a Figment. Perhaps he requires a Spellcraft + Concentration check to keep it up properly. Perhaps it costs an extra slot or fatigues them. Perhaps even a Circumstance bonus to the Stealth check.
You're the GM so thats on you to come up with something thats fair and doesn't quash the creativity. My advice in general for any Illusion GM is Be Consistent!
I am sure it is not intentional. This is really the first time he has used illusions other than color spray. His casters have all been either focused evokers of self buff for martial DPS.
I'm a little jaded, I have experience with players who feign ignorance to get away with things. Apologies.
I think you're on the right track for a lot of these - questioning whether or not a lower level illusion spell should be as useful as a higher level spell like invisibility. Here's my advice for some of these situations:
1) Party fleeing along twisty road in forested hills. Hear Horsemen thundering up from behind. At bend in road he casts a Silent Image of a large boulder. Party just hides inside boulder until horsemen are long gone. Since they just ride around it, there is no interaction with the illusion. So they don’t get a save. Single first level spell to completely and easily avoid a CR 8 encounter.
I think illusions should be decent sources of concealment terrain, but not necessarily foolproof. They're good for hiding behind and around so I'd have given them a hide check, maybe at a bonus because they put up a realistic piece of terrain to hide behind. Even if they say they're getting in the boulder, they'll have a hard time telling if maybe someone's backpack is still sticking out of it if viewed from the right angle. A skill check covers that nicely.
2) Party approaching pier in small fishing boat. Moderately windy/wavy ocean. Cast Major Image on the spar sticking from the front of the boat. Image is just the sight sound of the rest of the nearby ocean. No interaction, no save. Complete surprise at nearly melee range against the royal guard on the wharf. I single 3rd level spell is better than invisibility for the entire boat and all the people on it.
I'd give the guards a save as they approached, perhaps noticing a discrepancy in the behavior of the water in the illusion and the regular sea.
3) Party sets ambush for medium sized infantry detachment using Silent Image. Early morning, as infantry approach edge of forest, they see illusion of a few platforms about 15’ to 20’ up in the trees with armored skeleton archers. The skeletons appear to shoot at the infantry while the party does shoot at them through the illusion. If it looks like any of the return fire from the infantry looks to be even close to hitting the skeletons, the illusionist adds another arrow stuck in the armor, platform, or tree limb. I decided that any of the infantry that ‘hit’ the skeletons would count as interaction and gave them a save. But as standard low level warriors, almost all of them had to roll 19 or 20 to make the save. None of them did for several rounds. A first level spell was nearly as good as improved invisibility for the whole party.
I think you handled this fine. They were definitely interacting with the illusion as they were involved in trading volleys with it.
4) Major Image of several known local powerful monsters climbing over keep wall. Party intima-tank calling for surrender. Since fight hasn’t started, no interaction yet, so no save. One spell and 1 good skill check to conquer a keep.
For one thing, intimidate works in the short term, but it's a bridge-burner. After the duration wears off, they generally go back to being hostile. So any "conquering" of a keep is only going to be temporary before they're working against you again... and almost certainly know the monsters were a charlatan's trick.
Sounds like good tactics from your spellcaster.
3) Party sets ambush for medium sized infantry detachment using Silent Image. Early morning, as infantry approach edge of forest, they see illusion of a few platforms about 15’ to 20’ up in the trees with armored skeleton archers. The skeletons appear to shoot at the infantry while the party does shoot at them through the illusion. If it looks like any of the return fire from the infantry looks to be even close to hitting the skeletons, the illusionist adds another arrow stuck in the armor, platform, or tree limb. I decided that any of the infantry that ‘hit’ the skeletons would count as interaction and gave them a save. But as standard low level warriors, almost all of them had to roll 19 or 20 to make the save. None of them did for several rounds. A first level spell was nearly as good as improved invisibility for the whole party.
No reason that a detachment might not have a Aristocrat as leader or a Expert as support, with a wis of 12 or 14......
...
Have you spoken with the other players? are they happy with the Illusionist dominating so many encounters, or is it just the occasional encounter? Is it really a problem or are you getting upset because he bypasses a lot of the encounter you've prepared?
...Several players have mentioned in passing that the campaign is much easier than they are used to experiencing. They were expecting more of a challenge. The tank player seems very bored since he has had almost no opportunity to do anything.
I would guess that he is simplifying or bypassing 1/3 to 1/2 of the encounters so far.
I couldn't care less about my prepared encounters being wasted. I make lots of encounters that never see any use because I don't know what they will be doing.
Like I said in the beginning, I'm just trying to make sure I am ruling the illusion use correctly....
Have you spoken with the PC? Maybe he feels bad about making the encounters too easy. Maybe he has some ideas about how you can make it harder for him without spoiling the fun.
...I have to be fairly careful about this. this is by far the most power optimizing player in the group. He tends to get very touchy about GM's 'persecuting him for knowing the game very well.'
It sounds to me like this is the real problem. It's difficult to know for certain third hand, but if someone is complaining of being persecuted by GMs, that suggests they are a power gamer; such a person can seriously upset your group if not handled well. They tend to have good system mastery and will seek ways to abuse the system so as to make characters that simply dominate every encounter. Their idea of fun is having a character that is better than the others. Sadly their fun usually comes at the expense of everyone else.
From what you say about being persecuted that suggests he has been kicked out of previous groups...this is probably not for knowing the system too well but for abusing that knowledge. Many GMS faced with such a player will simply exclude him (which is why he is complaining about being persecuted for his game mastery).
If this is a fair description of your player, you are going to have to approach this carefully. Try to talk to the other players about it; You are going to have to get their support one way or another. He needs to be able to see that his fun is spoiling everyone elses; If no one else is having fun because he is too dominant then they will eventually give up.
Regarding his system mastery; you really do have to have better system mastery than him. It really sounds to me as though he knows that what he is trying to do is impossible under the system but he is taking advantage of the fact that you don't know the rules as well as he does. Sadly, even if you become an expert on illusions he will simply make up a character based on a different area of the system that you don't know so much about. Until he can see that he is spoiling things for everyone else, you probably won't get far with him. Sadly, he is unlikely to be able to see it.