Strangest argument for or against a ruling?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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That "Weapon Training" doesn't necessarily count as "Weapon Training" because a FAQ says some things that aren't called "Weapon Training" don't count as "Weapon Training" (but some do!)


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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Breathing is a free action. You either reload your guns this round, Gunslinger, or you get to breath. Make a choice.

Shouldn't be a problem. I can breathe once every 10 rounds or so and be perfectly fine.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
That "Weapon Training" doesn't necessarily count as "Weapon Training" because a FAQ says some things that aren't called "Weapon Training" don't count as "Weapon Training" (but some do!)

Well, they'd be right if they're comparing the "Weapon Training" the Rogue Talent to "Weapon Training" the Fighter class feature.

Paizo really need to invest some of their profits into a thesaurus...


Weapon Training the Rogue Talent isn't a weapon training class feature, since it's weapon training a rogue talent. Likewise, weapon training the feat wouldn't be a rogue talent or a class feature!

For the purpose of dueling gloves, it's all 100% easy peasy.


Trinam wrote:

Weapon Training the Rogue Talent isn't a weapon training class feature, since it's weapon training a rogue talent. Likewise, weapon training the feat wouldn't be a rogue talent or a class feature!

For the purpose of dueling gloves, it's all 100% easy peasy.

But rogue talents are class features!


A rogue talent is a class feature. Weapon Training is a rogue talent.

Similarly, a Fighter's Bonus Feats are a class feature. But if a hypothetical Weapon Training feat existed and the fighter took it, it'd be a feat and not a class feature.

The same is true of Rage Powers, Oracle Mysteries, Magus Arcana, and any other 'pick from a list' ability.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
That "Weapon Training" doesn't necessarily count as "Weapon Training" because a FAQ says some things that aren't called "Weapon Training" don't count as "Weapon Training" (but some do!)

So, are we talking about the rogue talent here? Or other fighter archetypes that grant Weapon Training (like Weapon Master's) in place of Weapon Training (vanilla)? Because the latter counts as Weapon Training (vanilla). It's just like...a different flavour. Like raspberry.

Damn, now I want ice cream.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
That "Weapon Training" doesn't necessarily count as "Weapon Training" because a FAQ says some things that aren't called "Weapon Training" don't count as "Weapon Training" (but some do!)

NOTHING counts as weapon training. If something counted as weapon training, it would be too anime for Pathfinder and therefore can't be in the game.


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Sarcasm Dragon wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
That "Weapon Training" doesn't necessarily count as "Weapon Training" because a FAQ says some things that aren't called "Weapon Training" don't count as "Weapon Training" (but some do!)
NOTHING counts as weapon training. If something counted as weapon training, it would be too anime for Pathfinder and therefore can't be in the game.

Fun Fact: Since Smash from the Air has no upper limit, and falling objects that are dropped from another creature onto a creature count as a ranged touch attack, you can smash from the air a meteor hurtling straight for the planet that was originally thrown by a titan currently orbiting the planet. So long as you beat it's attack roll, you can cut the immense object into pieces, thus saving the countryside and yourself from 10d6 points of devastation. Even if it wasn't a dropped object, it would be a thrown object at the fighter, so we can still use Smash from the Air. It's only when said object travels at it's own velocity and not originally from a creature that you cannot Smash from the Air.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Fun Fact: Since Smash from the Air has no upper limit, and falling objects that are dropped from another creature onto a creature count as a ranged touch attack, you can smash from the air a meteor hurtling straight for the planet that was originally thrown by a titan currently orbiting the planet. So long as you beat it's attack roll, you can cut the immense object into pieces, thus saving the countryside and yourself from 10d6 points of devastation.

So basically, this ability makes you Jecht?


Trinam wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Fun Fact: Since Smash from the Air has no upper limit, and falling objects that are dropped from another creature onto a creature count as a ranged touch attack, you can smash from the air a meteor hurtling straight for the planet that was originally thrown by a titan currently orbiting the planet. So long as you beat it's attack roll, you can cut the immense object into pieces, thus saving the countryside and yourself from 10d6 points of devastation.
So basically, this ability makes you Jecht?

Or Saitama.


It's too bad most titans have an attack bonus of +30 or so, making that attack roll pretty dang high.


Snowblind wrote:
Trinam wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Fun Fact: Since Smash from the Air has no upper limit, and falling objects that are dropped from another creature onto a creature count as a ranged touch attack, you can smash from the air a meteor hurtling straight for the planet that was originally thrown by a titan currently orbiting the planet. So long as you beat it's attack roll, you can cut the immense object into pieces, thus saving the countryside and yourself from 10d6 points of devastation.
So basically, this ability makes you Jecht?
Or Saitama.

Relevant part bolded.


cannen144 wrote:
Once had a player argue with me, while I was GMing, that Wizards had to be lawful and could fall just like a Paladin and lose their abilities if they committed a chaotic act...I'm still not sure where that came from.

Looks like 4thmaster has that rule.

Quote:
All wizards must be Lawful Neutral, because the study of magic demands the utmost discipline. A wizard who shifts away from LN, or fails to find/research a new spell during the course of a level, can no longer advance in wizard levels.
Sundakan wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

I recall a thread where some weirdo tried to make the argument that you could use purify food and water on fecal matter to turn it back into nourishing food again. ;-)

That one really took the (chocolate) cake for me. Just...just chew on that one for a while. lol.

There's a spell that exists to turn your piss into the most delicious beer or wine you've ever tasted, so it's not that far-fetched.

Here's another.

phantom1592 wrote:
I had a character cast Gentle Repose on a cow husk repeatedly instead of dealing with Rations on a long caravan. Keep the food fresh that way :)

You can also use Restore Corpse after removing a bit. Now it is a never ending supply.

Baval wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Bit of a digression, but am I the only one who finds it funny that it's always succubi (and by extension their patron demon lord) that are always front and center for redeeming demons? Never hear much talk for turning that Hezrou to the path of good...
They tend to deal with mortals the most and use a form of temptation that leads to easy transition to good (its easier to change lust to love than it is to change say "tricking people into making unfair deals" to "making fair loans")

Use Simulacrum to make your own, and give a command like "Do only good things to non-evil people" can make one ascend.

/cevah


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Perhaps a bit late to reenter the derail, but...

It is very much up to a GM. IMO a good GM will be upfront about what is considered the norm in his world and would allow rolls to know finer details of the law. He doesn't just go HA! after the act.

Also, sure there are lethal risks to nonlethal damage... if things go wrong, imo one would need to be an ass to punish over things out of one's control. I would not tend to punish someone who attempted to honorably capture a dishonorable foe but accidentally hit too hard on the last blow...

As to what to do with them after... again, really depends on their acts and on the world. In mine, slave labor is rampant, so the obvious outcome is that captured combatants will become slaves. That way, everyone knows there are consequences, but that they aren't as radical as the automatic genocide of hostile races, and that captured foes won't just be able to resume doing their harm.


Johnny_Devo wrote:
It's too bad most titans have an attack bonus of +30 or so, making that attack roll pretty dang high.

a properly built lvl 7 magus could prolly do it with true strike


It's not really sensible to get "Smash from the Air" on a Magus. Better to get an alchemist to hand the fighter an infused extract of True Strike. That doesn't cost anybody anything they weren't going to take anyway (assuming the fighter was going to get that tree.)


We had a very, very new GM back in college who argued that Chaotic-aligned characters couldn't be wizards because "That requires diligent practice and study, and that's not chaotic."

He also believed that chaotic spellcasters used different words and gestures each time they cast the same spell.


He obviously did not know about Githzerai... nearly a Chaotic as Slaadi, but so monkish in outlook and deed.


"My character should have known how to disarm that trap, because it has stone parts"

Said the dwarven fighter in regards to a magically trapped sarcophagus


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elcaleeb wrote:

"My character should have known how to disarm that trap, because it has stone parts"

Said the dwarven fighter in regards to a magically trapped sarcophagus

You made me look that up. I remembered something, something stone traps but not the specifics. +2 Perception to notice, automatic check when within 10 feet. Whatever "within 10 feet" means...


Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
elcaleeb wrote:

"My character should have known how to disarm that trap, because it has stone parts"

Said the dwarven fighter in regards to a magically trapped sarcophagus

You made me look that up. I remembered something, something stone traps but not the specifics. +2 Perception to notice, automatic check when within 10 feet. Whatever "within 10 feet" means...

10 feet of the trap and it's trigger. However, it wouldn't activate here since Stonecunning is looking for mechanical traps od stone.


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That being caught flat footed and being made flat footed are different things.


that immediate and immanent are two completely different things, I'll quote a thesaurus that lists them as synonyms to prove it to you!


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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
elcaleeb wrote:

"My character should have known how to disarm that trap, because it has stone parts"

Said the dwarven fighter in regards to a magically trapped sarcophagus

You made me look that up. I remembered something, something stone traps but not the specifics. +2 Perception to notice, automatic check when within 10 feet. Whatever "within 10 feet" means...
10 feet of the trap and it's trigger. However, it wouldn't activate here since Stonecunning is looking for mechanical traps od stone.

That assumes that only mechanical traps cause stonework to appear "unusual." Since it's not explicitly stated (and because anyone can find a magical trap by making their Perception check, presumably because it has an unusual appearance), I don't know why you wouldn't be able to find a magical trap with Stonecutting Stonecunning.

YMMV

Woah. I just now noticed that this ability was "Stonecunning" and not "Stonecutting."


Kitty Catoblepas wrote:


Woah. I just now noticed that this ability was "Stonecunning" and not "Stonecutting."

i think i noticed about 2 years ago...so a mere 12 years after playing this game...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
RealAlchemy wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I guess it's pretty much inevitable that the Magus will take over any rules-oriented thread, and the Paladin will take over any fluff-oriented thread.
Does that mean my L4 magus/L2 paladin is destined to rule the world?

Nah, just the Pathfinder forum topics that involve fluff or rules. Lucky you.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm going to make a paladin called Autumn Falls.


Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
elcaleeb wrote:

"My character should have known how to disarm that trap, because it has stone parts"

Said the dwarven fighter in regards to a magically trapped sarcophagus

You made me look that up. I remembered something, something stone traps but not the specifics. +2 Perception to notice, automatic check when within 10 feet. Whatever "within 10 feet" means...
10 feet of the trap and it's trigger. However, it wouldn't activate here since Stonecunning is looking for mechanical traps od stone.

That assumes that only mechanical traps cause stonework to appear "unusual." Since it's not explicitly stated (and because anyone can find a magical trap by making their Perception check, presumably because it has an unusual appearance), I don't know why you wouldn't be able to find a magical trap with Stonecutting Stonecunning.

YMMV

Woah. I just now noticed that this ability was "Stonecunning" and not "Stonecutting."

The moral of this story is Stonecunning does not allow you to automatically disarm any traps that have a stone or stone-like component.


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Chemlak wrote:
I'm going to make a paladin called Autumn Falls.

I'm going to leaf that one alone.

/cevah


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Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
elcaleeb wrote:

"My character should have known how to disarm that trap, because it has stone parts"

Said the dwarven fighter in regards to a magically trapped sarcophagus

You made me look that up. I remembered something, something stone traps but not the specifics. +2 Perception to notice, automatic check when within 10 feet. Whatever "within 10 feet" means...
10 feet of the trap and it's trigger. However, it wouldn't activate here since Stonecunning is looking for mechanical traps od stone.

That assumes that only mechanical traps cause stonework to appear "unusual." Since it's not explicitly stated (and because anyone can find a magical trap by making their Perception check, presumably because it has an unusual appearance), I don't know why you wouldn't be able to find a magical trap with Stonecutting Stonecunning.

YMMV

Woah. I just now noticed that this ability was "Stonecunning" and not "Stonecutting."

Who makes people read words wrong?

Who keeps the party going all night long?

We do! We do!


Calybos1 wrote:

We had a very, very new GM back in college who argued that Chaotic-aligned characters couldn't be wizards because "That requires diligent practice and study, and that's not chaotic."

Interestingly that was pretty much our veto reason for never allowing a Kender to be a wizard. the idea of them sitting still for an hour to read a book was just... WRONG.

Had no rules to back it up, but yeah... kender are too chaotic to study was pretty much our reason.

Sorcerers however... that we lost out on ;)


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Cevah wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
I'm going to make a paladin called Autumn Falls.

I'm going to leaf that one alone.

/cevah

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I wood like to see this very, very much.


phantom1592 wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:

We had a very, very new GM back in college who argued that Chaotic-aligned characters couldn't be wizards because "That requires diligent practice and study, and that's not chaotic."

Interestingly that was pretty much our veto reason for never allowing a Kender to be a wizard. the idea of them sitting still for an hour to read a book was just... WRONG.

Had no rules to back it up, but yeah... kender are too chaotic to study was pretty much our reason.

Sorcerers however... that we lost out on ;)

Ehhh... I could see Kender going around and "borrowing" other peoples' spells to add to their collection, then "give a demonstration" them when the disgruntled owner comes to retrieve their spellbook. I think a Kender would probably flip through their spellbook like a picture book, setting off cantrips every few seconds, but somehow retain enough of the spell to be able to cast it in a rather haphazard, roundabout, energetic fashion. A Kender Wizard would pick up on knowledge not because they are good at studying, but because they're just really naturally smart. Although most Kenders would not be smart enough to simply pick up wizardry.

Silver Crusade

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My Self wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:

We had a very, very new GM back in college who argued that Chaotic-aligned characters couldn't be wizards because "That requires diligent practice and study, and that's not chaotic."

Interestingly that was pretty much our veto reason for never allowing a Kender to be a wizard. the idea of them sitting still for an hour to read a book was just... WRONG.

Had no rules to back it up, but yeah... kender are too chaotic to study was pretty much our reason.

Sorcerers however... that we lost out on ;)

Ehhh... I could see Kender going around and "borrowing" other peoples' spells to add to their collection, then "give a demonstration" them when the disgruntled owner comes to retrieve their spellbook. I think a Kender would probably flip through their spellbook like a picture book, setting off cantrips every few seconds, but somehow retain enough of the spell to be able to cast it in a rather haphazard, roundabout, energetic fashion. A Kender Wizard would pick up on knowledge not because they are good at studying, but because they're just really naturally smart. Although most Kenders would not be smart enough to simply pick up wizardry.

Kender should not be wizards on account that, upon meeting a Kender, everyone's first reaction should be to put them in a sack and beat them against the nearest tree/rock/building/etc until they are the consistency of ground beef.

Fun fact: killing a Kender is never an evil act, and a paladin will never fall for doing so, regardless of the method employed. (At least in my games)


S'true.


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Quote:


Kender should not be wizards on account that, upon meeting a Kender, everyone's first reaction should be to put them in a sack and beat them against the nearest tree/rock/building/etc until they are the consistency of ground beef.

What half of me do you want to put in a sack? *wink*

I cannot think of a cousin of mine who wouldn't exchange his spellbook for shiny gems or something similar at first opportunity and I have a hard time figuring out how a kender spell pouch would look like, though.
It looks that my little cousins are not getting much love here. That makes me sad. I wish people didn't judge them basing on racial stereotypes. I also wish most of them weren't racial stereotypes, actually.

Silver Crusade

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Tasha the half-kender wrote:
What half of me do you want to put in a sack? *wink*

The Kender half.


I knew the answer before I asked.


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I've just remembered this game I was in a few years ago. It was 3.5, by the way.

Our PCs were in a caravan traveling to a random city. All the plot was that we were traveling and we had to survive some random encounters. Oh, and we have this "mysterious companion" NPC who all knew was the GM's PC from a previous campaign we were not in.
Two or three random combats after, we had looted some items. My goblin rogue had looted a Darkness scroll and...

Combat again! The GM fudges a dice roll and opens the Monster Manual:

GM: You see this (He shows us the Tarrasque. We are level 1).
We: Well, we have no too many options, Maybe we...
GM: Your "Mysterious Companion" notices the monster. Suddenly, a globe of darkness engulfs all of you. Three turns after that, darkness disappears and you see the monster again. Dead. Definitely dead.
I wink an eye to my friends.
Goblin: Me did it! Me a powerful wizard!! Me use magic scrolls and monster go boom!! All of you hafta kiss me. Me saved us all!
GM: Well, you can't believe...
PC 1: That goblin is superb! He speaks strange words. He must be a powerful wizard!
PC 2: He has saved us all! He deserves a kiss!
PC 3: All hail the Goblin King!
GM: You can't... My PC... (Yes, he really said that).
PC 2: I kiss the goblin!
PC 1: We are eternally in debt with him!
GM: You can't believe that a dirty goblin had just killed the Tarrasque, didn't you?!
PC 3: Why not? He has that magic scrolls and all we have seen was magical!
GM: AARGHHH!!!
Then the GM goes full into "Tableflip McRagequit" mode and goes out the building. We were too busy ROFLing to go after him.


I find kenders very difficult to roleplay, be it as a player or as a GM, because it's hard to make a kender that is not an stereotype and doesn't behave like other 99'9 percent of the kenders.
Afflicted kender are not a very good solution as they are not very «kender-like».
You know there is something very wrong about a race when the only way to roleplay it right is often disruptive.
I've had kender NPCs in my stories and I try not to make them too annoying but I have to aggree that is difficult to deal with them.
I've had a kender nightstalker who couldn't steal even if his life depended on it and who is more interested on hearing the tales from the dead, a young kender bard who is very naive and friendly and a kender spy who is very curious but also can follow orders and knows how to be cautious (she's not afraid but she doesn't want to ruin the mission). I don't think I could make the typical annoying kender because I'm so very tired of them.
I've made half-kenders into my game because I find them to be much more functional and you can play some kender quirks without having to bother all the table.

Silver Crusade

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Dalindra wrote:

I've just remembered this game I was in a few years ago. It was 3.5, by the way.

Our PCs were in a caravan traveling to a random city. All the plot was that we were traveling and we had to survive some random encounters. Oh, and we have this "mysterious companion" NPC who all knew was the GM's PC from a previous campaign we were not in.
Two or three random combats after, we had looted some items. My goblin rogue had looted a Darkness scroll and...

Combat again! The GM fudges a dice roll and opens the Monster Manual:

GM: You see this (He shows us the Tarrasque. We are level 1).
We: Well, we have no too many options, Maybe we...
GM: Your "Mysterious Companion" notices the monster. Suddenly, a globe of darkness engulfs all of you. Three turns after that, darkness disappears and you see the monster again. Dead. Definitely dead.
I wink an eye to my friends.
Goblin: Me did it! Me a powerful wizard!! Me use magic scrolls and monster go boom!! All of you hafta kiss me. Me saved us all!
GM: Well, you can't believe...
PC 1: That goblin is superb! He speaks strange words. He must be a powerful wizard!
PC 2: He has saved us all! He deserves a kiss!
PC 3: All hail the Goblin King!
GM: You can't... My PC... (Yes, he really said that).
PC 2: I kiss the goblin!
PC 1: We are eternally in debt with him!
GM: You can't believe that a dirty goblin had just killed the Tarrasque, didn't you?!
PC 3: Why not? He has that magic scrolls and all we have seen was magical!
GM: AARGHHH!!!
Then the GM goes full into "Tableflip McRagequit" mode and goes out the building. We were too busy ROFLing to go after him.

That was beautiful.

Silver Crusade

Kileanna wrote:

I find kenders very difficult to roleplay, be it as a player or as a GM, because it's hard to make a kender that is not an stereotype and doesn't behave like other 99'9 percent of the kenders.

Afflicted kender are not a very good solution as they are not very «kender-like».
You know there is something very wrong about a race when the only way to roleplay it right is often disruptive.
I've had kender NPCs in my stories and I try not to make them too annoying but I have to aggree that is difficult to deal with them.
I've had a kender nightstalker who couldn't steal even if his life depended on it and who is more interested on hearing the tales from the dead, a young kender bard who is very naive and friendly and a kender spy who is very curious but also can follow orders and knows how to be cautious (she's not afraid but she doesn't want to ruin the mission). I don't think I could make the typical annoying kender because I'm so very tired of them.
I've made half-kenders into my game because I find them to be much more functional and you can play some kender quirks without having to bother all the table.

Combat Reflexes helps with a lot of Kender.


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Rysky wrote:
Dalindra wrote:

I've just remembered this game I was in a few years ago. It was 3.5, by the way.

Our PCs were in a caravan traveling to a random city. All the plot was that we were traveling and we had to survive some random encounters. Oh, and we have this "mysterious companion" NPC who all knew was the GM's PC from a previous campaign we were not in.
Two or three random combats after, we had looted some items. My goblin rogue had looted a Darkness scroll and...

Combat again! The GM fudges a dice roll and opens the Monster Manual:

GM: You see this (He shows us the Tarrasque. We are level 1).
We: Well, we have no too many options, Maybe we...
GM: Your "Mysterious Companion" notices the monster. Suddenly, a globe of darkness engulfs all of you. Three turns after that, darkness disappears and you see the monster again. Dead. Definitely dead.
I wink an eye to my friends.
Goblin: Me did it! Me a powerful wizard!! Me use magic scrolls and monster go boom!! All of you hafta kiss me. Me saved us all!
GM: Well, you can't believe...
PC 1: That goblin is superb! He speaks strange words. He must be a powerful wizard!
PC 2: He has saved us all! He deserves a kiss!
PC 3: All hail the Goblin King!
GM: You can't... My PC... (Yes, he really said that).
PC 2: I kiss the goblin!
PC 1: We are eternally in debt with him!
GM: You can't believe that a dirty goblin had just killed the Tarrasque, didn't you?!
PC 3: Why not? He has that magic scrolls and all we have seen was magical!
GM: AARGHHH!!!
Then the GM goes full into "Tableflip McRagequit" mode and goes out the building. We were too busy ROFLing to go after him.

That was beautiful.

I was there and I can say it was.

I was playing a very serious cleric and I remember someone asking my character if it was possible that the goblin did it.
I answered: «Indeed, but that must mean it's a really powerful goblin»
That goblin was epic. As the game stopped there and never continued, I like to think that my character has gone heretic for the goblin and now prays to him expecting to get some spells and divine wisdom

Silver Crusade

Heh


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Dalindra wrote:

...

Goblin: Me did it! Me a powerful wizard!! Me use magic scrolls and monster go boom!! All of you hafta kiss me. Me saved us all!
...

I think you just sneak attacked the GM.


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I've just seen that I have posted this in the wrong thread. It was intended to go in the "Trolliest character" thread. Sorry for derailing it.


This GM actually was in love with the Tarrasque (3.x rules). He thought it was the coolest and more powerful monster in all the game.
He almost went mad when I said that I didn't think it was so powerful as it has the intelligence score of an animal, no magic and no flying making it an unbalanced monster.


Kileanna wrote:

I find kenders very difficult to roleplay, be it as a player or as a GM, because it's hard to make a kender that is not an stereotype and doesn't behave like other 99'9 percent of the kenders.

Afflicted kender are not a very good solution as they are not very «kender-like».
You know there is something very wrong about a race when the only way to roleplay it right is often disruptive.
I've had kender NPCs in my stories and I try not to make them too annoying but I have to aggree that is difficult to deal with them.
I've had a kender nightstalker who couldn't steal even if his life depended on it and who is more interested on hearing the tales from the dead, a young kender bard who is very naive and friendly and a kender spy who is very curious but also can follow orders and knows how to be cautious (she's not afraid but she doesn't want to ruin the mission). I don't think I could make the typical annoying kender because I'm so very tired of them.
I've made half-kenders into my game because I find them to be much more functional and you can play some kender quirks without having to bother all the table.

I have once been the groups kender and was told I managed perfectly. Though a lot of it was working to be "annoying and aloof" without pulling away from the game. My favorite moments were first when searching a room for traps and rolling a natural 1 proudly declaring the room safe and backing right over the trip wire to a fireball trap, and second when dealing a group of minotuar I managed to dispatch most of the group of them though sheer dumb luck of taunting them and them falling on the ice floe we were on.

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