Full Pouch
Against a Giant you can just Glitterdust for a lower level slot and it will probably work.
I'm pretty sure there's another Enchantment Spell 3rd level that can work as well.It could be a good Spell if your DM likes to take things away, but I doubt it will work on your Spellbook or Component Pouch.
Regarding Full Pouch: I love the spell, I just don't use it. I think it's a bit unbalanced. You're creating endless Wealth and some items are expensive, but you buy one use forever seems cheesy.
I think it's as broken as Blood Money.
I always figured the bit about inferior quality was supposed to make them unsellable and it was just poorly explained or copyfitted out, since other similar spells tend to have language like that.
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With down time and a 100gp investment, full pouch and troll styptic is the cheapest out of combat healing.
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Into the ring I throw another third level spell: Synesthesia
It's a decent debuff on anything you decide to cast it on. Casters need to make concentration checks, tanks lose AC, and dps have concealment against everything. However, synesthesia is special in that its miss chance is NOT overcome by improved precise shot or seeking arrows.
Bestow curse is still better most of the time. But I like synesthesia. Plus, it's an illusion, which I feel haven't gotten enough love besides the regular ones.
I like synthesia, another good one is Mydriatic Spontaneity. It's an evocaiton spell that nauseates by doing flashes of light and darkness in they eyes, so neither poison nor mind affecting immunities can stop it, unlike Babble or Stinking Cloud. It also has a 50% chance each round to make the target dazzled (in normal or dim light) or blind (in darkness or bright light) as the eye randomly flips from super dilation to super contraction.
It's a must for Psychics, who get it early access and need a counter to things immune to mind affecting. Bards and Mesmerists should look at it for the same reason.
This is just another reason to love Automatic Bonus Progression.
It basically makes this (puzzlebox) worthless, and I'm okay with that because shutting down martial characters isn't fun/cool.
With ABP, "Hey I forget how to use my weapon. I'll pull out my other weapon, and attune to it. NBD. And then I'm going to kill the crap out of that pesky wizard."
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This is just another reason to love Automatic Bonus Progression.
It basically makes this worthless, and I'm okay with that because shutting down martial characters isn't fun/cool.
With ABP, "Hey I forget how to use my weapon. I'll pull out my other weapon, and attune to it. NBD. And then I'm going to kill the crap out of that pesky wizard."
Your other weapon that you have also forgotten how to use?
Is it not target item?
Edit: Just reread it. Nevermind. It's not.
Frak this spell. I really hate these types of spells that really punish martial characters unfairly.
Is it not target item?
Edit: Just reread it. Nevermind. It's not.
Frak this spell. I really hate these types of spells that really punish martial characters unfairly.
This is less painful than getting hit with Hold Person or Hideous Laughter, same level.
This is less painful than getting hit with Hold Person or Hideous Laughter, same level.Is it not target item?
Edit: Just reread it. Nevermind. It's not.
Frak this spell. I really hate these types of spells that really punish martial characters unfairly.
Yes and no.
I would consider Puzzlebox worse because while Hold Person stops you from taking any action you are allowed a save each round to get over it. Hideous Laughter gives you a second chance to get over it with another save.
Puzzle Box is "Hey, hope you make this save round one because almost no one ever takes the craft weapon/shield skill because they're not effective uses of a limited resource". Basically, you best hope you have appropriate craft skill or you're completely screwed by a single save.
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These spells tend to be quite new or quite weird, OP, perhaps that is why they are not commonly used by any but the most cunning of mages.
Here's one in a similar vein.
Shackle. It's only level 2 and it was made for Order of the Chain Hellknights. Conjuration (Creation), requires touch attack and Reflex save to hit, no SR.
You summon a set of Small or Medium masterwork restraints into being. When you cast this spell, you can choose whether the restraints are manacles or fetters. You also summon the restraints’ key to your person, and the Disable Device DC to open the locked restraints is equal to 15 + your caster level + the modifier of your primary casting statistic. Typically, the restraints appear in your hands. However, as part of the spell’s casting, you can attempt a melee touch attack against a creature; if you succeed and the creature then fails a Reflex saving throw, locked fetters appear clasped on the creature or locked manacles clasp you and the creature together. You can instead choose to have manacles restrain the target’s limbs in front of or behind it.
The Disable Device DC will be minimum 22ish with upper limit of 40+.
They are masterwork manacles.
Manacles can bind a Medium creature. A manacled creature can use the Escape Artist skill to slip free (DC 30, or DC 35 for masterwork manacles). Breaking the manacles requires a Strength check (DC 26, or DC 28 for masterwork manacles). Manacles have hardness 10 and 10 hit points.
The spell can be cast from level 3 so I don't know what the heck is supposed to escape from them.
But they scale too!
As you level up they can grow from tiny to huge, they can become Mithril, they can have Hardness 30 and 60 HP, they can not be broken with strength and as a cherry on top they function as Dimensional Anchor!
Oh, and they last for 1 hour per level and you can chain people together if you want.
All for a touch attack and a Reflex save. Not mind-affecting, no SR, not disrupted by Protection from Alignment, nothing. Sure, Psychics don't worry. It doesn't stop SLAs and breath weapons. It doesn't stop everything.
Shackle
I'd definitely use this with a Reach Rod, but how can be interpreted? Is that even possible because magic?
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I have to think that's a typo. They must have meant the LOWER of the two, not the higher. Otherwise you could create DC 18 tanglefoot bags and whatnot.
Doug M.
I agree. That is so obviously a typo that I'd have no problem making that ruling even in PFS, at least until some official source says otherwise.
Of course, given the low DCs of alchemical items that will often mean that the copy is identical to the original so its still an incredible steal.
Not quite as bad as blood money, admittedly.
At least this is largely controlled in PFS since there usually isn't down time to create the items AND the items automatically go away at the end of the session.
This is less painful than getting hit with Hold Person or Hideous Laughter, same level.Is it not target item?
Edit: Just reread it. Nevermind. It's not.
Frak this spell. I really hate these types of spells that really punish martial characters unfairly.
Yes and no.
I would consider Puzzlebox worse because while Hold Person stops you from taking any action you are allowed a save each round to get over it. Hideous Laughter gives you a second chance to get over it with another save.
Puzzle Box is "Hey, hope you make this save round one because almost no one ever takes the craft weapon/shield skill because they're not effective uses of a limited resource". Basically, you best hope you have appropriate craft skill or you're completely screwed by a single save.
I don't know. I see plenty of fighters with craft skills around my groups - maybe not maxed out, but often present.
If there's anything really wrong with the spell it's the fact that it's on the wizard/sorcerer list. That list accretes way too many spells that work well with niche casters (this is an excellent spell for a bard - very fitting) but just serve to make the wizard/sorcerer list too big, flexible, broad, and powerful.
If there's anything really wrong with the spell it's the fact that it's on the wizard/sorcerer list. That list accretes way too many spells that work well with niche casters (this is an excellent spell for a bard - very fitting) but just serve to make the wizard/sorcerer list too big, flexible, broad, and powerful.
The problem with that is that no bard in her right mind would take a niche spell like that. As was pointed out upthread, it's great at dealing with giants -- or more generally, with equipment-dependent boss monsters with poor Will saves. I'm not going to use it on a T-rex because it does nothing. I'm not going to use it on a wizard because the Spellcraft check is a joke. I'm not going to use it on a paladin or monk because they will laugh at the Will save. And I can't even use it effectively against mooks because it's a single-target spell.
As a bard, if I need a Will-save-or-suck spells at third level, this isn't it. Charm Monster is more effective, lasts longer, and covers a wider variety of opponents. [The technical term is that puzzle box is "Pareto-inferior," the colloquial phrasing is simply that puzzle box sucks by comparison.] A wizard can afford to have niche spells like this in his Sears & Roebuck Spell Catalog; a bard simply can't. Even at only second level, I'd probably rather have cacaphonous call since that disables more effectively and still works on a T-rex.
If there's anything really wrong with the spell it's the fact that it's on the wizard/sorcerer list. That list accretes way too many spells that work well with niche casters (this is an excellent spell for a bard - very fitting) but just serve to make the wizard/sorcerer list too big, flexible, broad, and powerful.The problem with that is that no bard in her right mind would take a niche spell like that. As was pointed out upthread, it's great at dealing with giants -- or more generally, with equipment-dependent boss monsters with poor Will saves. I'm not going to use it on a T-rex because it does nothing. I'm not going to use it on a wizard because the Spellcraft check is a joke. I'm not going to use it on a paladin or monk because they will laugh at the Will save. And I can't even use it effectively against mooks because it's a single-target spell.
That depends a lot on the style of campaign, doesn't it? If I'm playing a lot more city adventures, courtly intrigue, or APs like Curse of the Crimson Throne or Council of Thieves, I'm not going to care that a t-rex isn't bothered because I can get a lot of mileage out of the spell.
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Jumping back to full pouch for a second, remember that Eschew Materials allows you to ignore material components that cost 1 gp or less. Now you have all the alchemical items you could want for free!
Also, a few alchemical items could be more useful (such as blackfire clay) if they weren't as heavy as they are, especially at lower levels. Or the fact that, as the newly created alchemical item is nonmagical, it could be used as the target for future castings of full pouch as well. What that means is that you could hyper-buff your DC for one casting of full pouch, then use that item with the astronomically high DC as your target for all future castings, and since the new item uses the higher of the DCs, well.... This is why it's best to not push the rules too far.
As for my submission?
Carry Companion.
Because nobody cared about encumbrance in the first place, right?
True; but on the other hand, Puzzlebox allows you to take other actions. The fighter who is puzzled can still attack at -4, or try swapping to another weapon, or Aid Another, or make a combat maneuver, or run away. It's "fail one save and you're -4 on your best thing for a minute or so" versus "you can't do anything at all, but you get to save every round". That seems balanced to me.
You can't swap to another weapon, the spell targets the creature and removes all weapon proficiency. This also potentially removes a swath of feats that require proficiency, like weapon focus or improved critical.
You can still attack, but with at least a -4 penalty and potentially the removal of several of your feats (any feat that requires proficiency or feats that require feats which require proficiency).
@Firebug, armor check penalty does not apply because it does not remove armor proficiency, though if you are wielding a shield that ACP penalty would apply.
Dot. And since it was forgotten: Shackle
/cevah
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It shuts down casters and PC races. Aside from the Dimensional Anchor thing, it's a people spell. Puzzle Box specifically doesn't shut down access to the spell component pouch unless the item is deliberately targeted, even then V,S spells and Eschew Materials get through.
Shackle stops casters because it stops the somatic component. It is less situational than Puzzle Box. I'd prefer Puzzle Box on a high-Dex Rogue looking to stab you, sure.
Cut away the details and Puzzle Box stops the use of an item with a Will save. shackle stops the use of your hands, with a Reflex save (touching is pretty easy). Casters have better Will saves than Reflex.
They are for different things I guess. I'm more scared of casters and less scared of having to touch them. As it happens, I'd consider taking both. If you are a save-or-lose caster anyway, taking a couple of low-level spells which target different saves but both achieve the result of ending the enemy threat is why you you built to boost save DCs in the first place. The enemy is still a goner.
The Shackle dimensional lock effect requires the caster to be 12th level, spend 1000gp, and expend a second standard action AFTER the casting is complete. It's not as bad as you were leading me to fear. As long as the target teleports immediately after being shackled the caster wasted 1,000 gp for an effect he can't realistically apply. No teleport spells except that awful shadow jump thing have somatic components.
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Ah yeah. So we can ignore that bit - if you are 12th level you can cast Dimensional Anchor anyway. And for both spells, you want to cast DA first (just like in most battle with teleporters).
DA does annoy me. It is such a dull spell and it gives the enemy at least a turn to do something before your second round, yet it is so vital if you need to actually kill the guy. Quickened DA is 8th level, which is a depressing tax. The Fighters and Barbarians are not going to be impressed if that is your expression of Ultimate Arcane Power.
I digress from the topic of the thread. Still, it's funny that these boring spells win battles more than anything else (DA, See Invisibility, Prot form Evil, Death Ward etc.)
I would like to submit a lovely little spell from Arcane Anthology, Full Pouch.
It's perfect for the person using alchemical ammo like Alchemical sling bullet, Tangleshot arrows, Acid bolts and Launching crossbow/Flask thrower/Sling w/Slipslinger Grenadier. Otherwise it get pretty expensive with the alteration to Abundant Ammunition removing alchemical ammo from the spell.
Jumping back to full pouch for a second, remember that Eschew Materials allows you to ignore material components that cost 1 gp or less. Now you have all the alchemical items you could want for free!
Also False Focus, as it allows up to 100 gp ignored.
EDIT: Alchemical Tinkering works quite well with Full Pouch as you can swap what base item you use without extra cost.
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I think several folks need to reread the 'target' line of puzzle box.
They are assuming it's a single target from their posts tone.
It is not. It is 1 person or object up to 5lbs/level
My Enchanting Couertsan as it at 2nd level, where her pearls of power help out, and heightened @5th level for a much higher D.C.
I use it for groups of mooks.
I think several folks need to reread the 'target' line of puzzle box.
They are assuming it's a single target from their posts tone.
It is not. It is 1 person or object up to 5lbs/level
My Enchanting Couertsan as it at 2nd level, where her pearls of power help out, and heightened @5th level for a much higher D.C.
I use it for groups of mooks.
How is a touch attack against a single item useful against groups of mooks?
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How is a touch attack against a single item useful against groups of mooks?I think several folks need to reread the 'target' line of puzzle box.
They are assuming it's a single target from their posts tone.
It is not. It is 1 person or object up to 5lbs/level
My Enchanting Couertsan as it at 2nd level, where her pearls of power help out, and heightened @5th level for a much higher D.C.
I use it for groups of mooks.
Puzzle box isn't touch, you're thinking shackle.
PUZZLE BOX
School enchantment (compulsion) [curseUM, mind-affecting];
Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) or touch; see text
Target one creature or one object up to 5 lbs./level
Duration 1 round/level or permanent; see text
Saving Throw Will negates or none;
Spell Resistance yes
This spell causes even commonly used objects to become conundrums. When cast on a creature, the target loses all weapon and shield proficiencies. The target also forgets how to use all spell-completion, spell-trigger, and use-activated magic items, as well as any mundane items used as part of a skill check, imposing a –5 penalty on all ability and skill checks attempted with such items. These effects last for 1 round per level. As a move action, the target can attempt a skill check to negate the effects of this spell for one object. Weapons, shields, and mundane objects require a successful Craft skill check of the type required to craft the item in question, with a DC equal to the spell's save DC. Magic items require a successful Spellcraft or Use Magic Device skill check against the spell's save DC. Alternatively, this spell can be cast on a single touched object that weighs up to 5 pounds per the caster's level. Use of this object becomes a puzzle even to those previously familiar with it. Any creature attempting to use an item affected in this way is treated as though the creature was the target of puzzle box for that item only. When cast on an object, the duration of this spell is permanent.
Edit. Teach me to paste right from the pdf
How is a touch attack against a single item useful against groups of mooks?I think several folks need to reread the 'target' line of puzzle box.
They are assuming it's a single target from their posts tone.
It is not. It is 1 person or object up to 5lbs/level
My Enchanting Couertsan as it at 2nd level, where her pearls of power help out, and heightened @5th level for a much higher D.C.
I use it for groups of mooks.
Puzzle box isn't touch, you're thinking shackle.
PUZZLE BOX
School enchantment (compulsion) [curseUM, mind-affecting];
Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) or touch; see text
Target one creature or one object up to 5 lbs./level
Duration 1 round/level or permanent; see text
Saving Throw Will negates or none;
Spell Resistance yes
This spell causes even commonly used objects to become conundrums. When cast on a creature, the target loses all weapon and shield proficiencies. The target also forgets how to use all spell-completion, spell-trigger, and use-activated magic items, as well as any mundane items used as part of a skill check, imposing a –5 penalty on all ability and skill checks attempted with such items. These effects last for 1 round per level. As a move action, the target can attempt a skill check to negate the effects of this spell for one object. Weapons, shields, and mundane objects require a successful Craft skill check of the type required to craft the item in question, with a DC equal to the spell's save DC. Magic items require a successful Spellcraft or Use Magic Device skill check against the spell's save DC.Alternatively, this spell can be cast on a single touched object that weighs up to 5 pounds per the caster's level. Use of this object becomes a puzzle even to those previously familiar with it. Any creature attempting to use an item affected in this way is treated as though the creature was the target of puzzle box for that item only. When cast on an object, the duration of this spell is permanent.
There, I bolded the relevant parts in the spell for you. You either target an individual at range, who forgets how to use all equipment, or you touch a single item under the weight limit to make it unusable to anyone.
I take it from the limited context of your posts that you think you can cast it on range on numerous attended items that collectively are under the weight cap? Because that's the only way I can see this being used against "groups of mooks." Unfortunately, it doesn't come close to working like that.
If you meant something else please explain.
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...How is a touch attack against a single item useful against groups of mooks?I think several folks need to reread the 'target' line of puzzle box.
They are assuming it's a single target from their posts tone.
It is not. It is 1 person or object up to 5lbs/level
My Enchanting Couertsan as it at 2nd level, where her pearls of power help out, and heightened @5th level for a much higher D.C.
I use it for groups of mooks.
Puzzle box isn't touch, you're thinking shackle.
PUZZLE BOX
School enchantment (compulsion) [curseUM, mind-affecting];
Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) or touch; see text
Target one creature or one object up to 5 lbs./level
Duration 1 round/level or permanent; see text
Saving Throw Will negates or none;
Spell Resistance yes
This spell causes even commonly used objects to become conundrums. When cast on a creature, the target loses all weapon and shield proficiencies. The target also forgets how to use all spell-completion, spell-trigger, and use-activated magic items, as well as any mundane items used as part of a skill check, imposing a –5 penalty on all ability and skill checks attempted with such items. These effects last for 1 round per level. As a move action, the target can attempt a skill check to negate the effects of this spell for one object. Weapons, shields, and mundane objects require a successful Craft skill check of the type required to craft the item in question, with a DC equal to the spell's save DC. Magic items require a successful Spellcraft or Use Magic Device skill check against the spell's save DC.Alternatively, this spell can be cast on a single touched object that weighs up to 5 pounds per the caster's level. Use of this object becomes a puzzle even to those previously familiar with it. Any creature
No, I cast it on multiple individuals as the target line says I can.. 1 person per caster level, i.e. 9 people since I'm a 9th level caster..I have used the item version to mess with folks,, like putting it on the item the witch is using as a beguiling gift
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KingOfAnything said it better, due to not being condescending in nearly every post.
Also, Kyrie had a good idea about casting it ahead of time on a potential Beguiling Gift. Though alchemists generally have more than enough Craft (Alchemy) to get around Puzzle Box, and most archery feats don't have proficiency as prerequisites, it could shut down an instrument-reliant bard.
It could also be helpful in heists - so guards will end up blowing into the wrong ends of their signal whistles and bugles, the owner of the safe will fumble with opening it to see what's been stolen from it, and it could buy some time to escape.
KingOfAnything said it better, due to not being condescending in nearly every post.
Also, Kyrie had a good idea about casting it ahead of time on a potential Beguiling Gift. Though alchemists generally have more than enough Craft (Alchemy) to get around Puzzle Box, and most archery feats don't have proficiency as prerequisites, it could shut down an instrument-reliant bard.
It could also be helpful in heists - so guards will end up blowing into the wrong ends of their signal whistles and bugles, the owner of the safe will fumble with opening it to see what's been stolen from it, and it could buy some time to escape.
I don't see how Puzzle Box helps much when added to a Beguiling Gift. Beguiling Gift makes you use an appropriate action to use (sword), put on (item of clothing) or consume (a potion or poison) an item you've given them for one round, which wastes an action and potentially delivers a harmful effect. I guess I can force them to burn a standard action trying to hit me with a bad weapon with a nonproficiency penalty, but that doesn't seem like a useful investment of two spells. I'd rather have them use a move action drinking a poison or just waste a move action rather than leave them free to move and attack me with a penalty. They can just drop the item as a free action anyway after that one round.
If you're just sabotaging their standard gear, like a bard's instrument, I don't see how Beguiling Gift enters into it.
I do like the idea of casting this on a safe or secure door, but I think that also doesn't work.
The target also forgets how to use all spell-completion, spell-trigger, and use-activated magic items, as well as any mundane items used as part of a skill check, imposing a –5 penalty on all ability and skill checks attempted with such items.
You don't need a skill check to open a door or a safe if you have a key or the code/combination, so this doesn't do anything. Puzzle box prevents lock picks from being used on a Disable Device check, but doesn't prevent a key from opening a lock, strangely enough.
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Oh right, the Skill Check bit! That does limit it a lot more. I guess using it on a climber's/healer's kit or swim fins ahead of time could stymie pursuit.
But yeah, Beguiling Gift only lasts for one round, not "until the given item works", so it's almost always better to cast it when you're holding something you want the target to use, like manacles or a vial of poison or something. Rather than hand over a Puzzleboxed scroll because you want it not to work, it'd be simpler to just scribe a cursed scroll and use that.
It could be used on a merchant's scale to tip deals in your favour, but without any context, I'm unsure what the situation would be where casting it on a disguise kit would be helpful. Other than PCs pranking each other, if it ever comes to that.
Attempts to pick the door's lock have a -5 penalty.
A mundane king's crown would have no game effects since it's not a weapon you can be proficient in or a tool you make skil checks with.
Melee touch attack *and* the target gets a Reflex save. That moves this from "whoa!" to "great but situational".
Also, "great for a Magus to grab with Spell Blending".
If you needed the Dimensional Anchor effect use quickened shackle as a 6th and then activate as a standard.
You can also cast Shackle via Shadow Conjuration at higher levels and get the optional Dimensional Anchor effect for free (the 1,000 GP emerald material component gets waived). Of course, now you are casting Shackle with SR: Yes and a potential Disbelief obstacle.