I've been discussing with friends which of the two campaign settings -- Pathfinder's Golarion and D&D's Eberron -- is the more "progressive"? By this I mean which one is more inclusive and inviting for a wider spectrum of players.
For example, Golarion clearly appeals to the LGBTQ community, with NPCs who are specifically LGBTQ.
On the other hand, Eberron has an entire race (changelings), who are by definition genderfluid beings who can choose to be physically male, physically female, and/or of any sexual orientation and gender identity.
Meanwhile, Eberron goes to great pains to explain that no monster is "always" a given alignment, and nonstandard alignments for humanoids such as goblins and orcs seem to be very common, as opposed to Golarion, where goblinoids and orcs are much more likely to be "evil" and savage.
Moreover, Eberron gives these humanoids rich cultural histories, and does not resort to relegating them to being the "other". It would seem that those of different cultural identities in the real would might be more comfortable playing in the Eberron setting, where "humanoid" races (who are thinly veiled fantasy stand-ins for people of ethnicities other than Caucasian) are treated with more dignity and respect. Goblins in Golarion are fire-obsessed lunatics, while in Eberron they once ruled an empire and are in fact the "first people" of the campaign mainland.
What do you think?
| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
Eberron's changes were made to change the way standard monsters and races operate.
Paizo's innovations on the other hand are a deliberate effort to aid in real world inclusiveness.
It's no contest really. The way you can tell is that none of Eberron's changes are the kind that have produced the backlash from recidivist players the way Paizo's have.
That's how you can tell if something is truly progressive... see if there is any backlash.
Meanwhile, Eberron goes to great pains to explain that no monster is "always" a given alignment, and nonstandard alignments for humanoids such as goblins and orcs seem to be very common, as opposed to Golarion, where goblinoids and orcs are much more likely to be "evil" and savage.
I haven't seen so much support for this comment in Golarion, more that there are groups of folks that follow particular deities and as a result it influences their society.
Granted, I haven't read every piece of literature, and my Eberron lore is sadly limited to a brief fling with an MMO.
But that happens with all the races? In fact, it could be argued the race with the 'most evil' members numerically is... human.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Golarion vs Eberron -- Which is more progressive?
Blue Rose. :)
(But Golarion is more active in its inclusive themes than Eberron. Eberron is more "modern" though.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Golarion vs Eberron -- Which is more progressive?Blue Rose. :)
(But Golarion is more active in its inclusive themes than Eberron. Eberron is more "modern" though.)
Been trying to find the 2nd Edition somewhere since it was mentioned at a panel at GenCon. Has it gone live?
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
The way you can tell is that none of Eberron's changes are the kind that have produced the backlash from recidivist players the way Paizo's have.Most of the backlash I've seen regarding Paizo races have had very little to do with progressivism though. More like "these goblins are too comical" type complaints.
There are people harbored in this hobby who believe that "females [sic] should have a CHA bonus because they're attractive [to whom, exactly?], and men should have a STR bonus, with a corresponding penalty to the other stat", there are people who find the inclusion of a transgender character in published material to be this terrible unrealistic forced diversity in a world where there are dragons and orcs.
If you've not had the misfortune of encountering some of these folks, I envy you. But suffice to say, they are not fond of Paizo. Though they may be more upset that Paizo employs a significant number of women in important roles who are (to their great credit) outspoken about making this hobby a more welcoming and inclusive place.
Been trying to find the 2nd Edition somewhere since it was mentioned at a panel at GenCon. Has it gone live?Golarion vs Eberron -- Which is more progressive?Blue Rose. :)
(But Golarion is more active in its inclusive themes than Eberron. Eberron is more "modern" though.)
I dunno! I've got the old pre-True20 version.
I've been waiting on more info myself - even started a thread for it, but it lies fallow at present.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Among those two options, Golarion. Because it's inclusivity is tailored towards our world.
Ebberon has a more nuanced worldview, and I approve of generally a more "gray" moral setting, where good and evil is present in all the races and the true nature of gods is more ambigous. I do ultimately prefer this approach in contrast to the more old school DnD approach that Golarion usually tends to follow, where entire races can be almost entirely evil and there is zero ambiguity often on whether a god or faction is evil. However, given that goblins and orcs are not "real", a more nuanced portrayal of them can't be seen as actually progressive in the same sense in how Paizo tries portrays race, gender, and sexuality in their products.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eberron's changes were made to change the way standard monsters and races operate.
Paizo's innovations on the other hand are a deliberate effort to aid in real world inclusiveness.
It's no contest really. The way you can tell is that none of Eberron's changes are the kind that have produced the backlash from recidivist players the way Paizo's have.
That's how you can tell if something is truly progressive... see if there is any backlash.
That is actually a horrible metric because really early on they weren't so progressive and bizarrely went backwards in ways that no other edition of D&D ever did. Now mind you they've really made drastic strides in this regard which is why I'm happy giving them money.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, Golarion is notably more inclusive of various real-world groups, and clearly intentionally so.
Eberron is intentionally much more of a 'shades of grey' setting, hence more 'monster race' background and culture...but that's not exactly 'progressive' in any intentional sense, just a way for the setting to distinguish itself.
And besides, even in that arena Paizo has at least one canonical CG Orc (and several who are Neutral), a LN Vampire, a redeemed Demon, and similar things, so they acknowledge that 'evil monsters' aren't always so.
Which isn't a damning indictment of Eberron or anything, mind you, Eberron is cool. But Golarion is definitely more 'progressive'.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Been trying to find the 2nd Edition somewhere since it was mentioned at a panel at GenCon. Has it gone live?Golarion vs Eberron -- Which is more progressive?Blue Rose. :)
(But Golarion is more active in its inclusive themes than Eberron. Eberron is more "modern" though.)
A friend of mine who backed the thing on KS has received PDFs of the work in progress, but not yet the definitive work, nor his dead tree book.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Depends on how you define 'Progressive' [I am certainly not a fan of economic policies labeled such.]
I'd say Eberron's treatment of the gods as 'maybe yes maybe no' is pretty progressive.
Good point -- I had not even considered Eberron's treatment of religion.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Good point -- I had not even considered Eberron's treatment of religion.Depends on how you define 'Progressive' [I am certainly not a fan of economic policies labeled such.]
I'd say Eberron's treatment of the gods as 'maybe yes maybe no' is pretty progressive.
?
How is "we don't know if the Gods even exist" progressive?
Eberron's changes were made to change the way standard monsters and races operate.
Paizo's innovations on the other hand are a deliberate effort to aid in real world inclusiveness.
It's no contest really. The way you can tell is that none of Eberron's changes are the kind that have produced the backlash from recidivist players the way Paizo's have.
That's how you can tell if something is truly progressive... see if there is any backlash.
What you are saying is that Paizo TRIED really hard to be inclusive, but I didn't ask which setting was INTENDED to be more progressive, I asked which one actually WAS more progressive.
Similarly, I wasn't wondering which setting "stirred the pot" and antagonized bigots more -- I was wondering which one was actually more progressive.
Making it look like you tried hard to make a cultural point, and upsetting people who disagree with that point, is not even the most effective way to effect change in society. Consider any number of ham-handed "Christian" themed video games vs. something like Doug Ten-Naples' classic "The Neverhood" -- The Neverhood is CLEARLY a Christian-themed game, that is CLEARLY trying to "push" the ideals of Christianity, but it does so in such a subtle and entertaining way that it's easy to miss -- or at least not consciously notice -- what it is doing. This in many ways made it more effective at that angle of what it was trying to do.
especially in a world where clerics and other religious casters DO get their spells... Mighty is the power of Faith. Mighty indeed if it works without gods and on wisdom rather than charisma.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What you are saying is that Paizo TRIED really hard to be inclusive, but I didn't ask which setting was INTENDED to be more progressive, I asked which one actually WAS more progressive.
Eberron was never about inclusion. Changelings were about "look, we made a shape-shifting race". Paizo has had numerous adventures have explicitly non-straight NPCs, where the only purpose for their existence was inclusion.
Referring to monster alignment is kind of... weird, I think, when it comes to the topic. Monsters are monsters... they're the part of a GAME where nuanced exception-to-the-rule type individuals really act as a huge depressing speed-bump on the fun highway. The first time I encountered a bunch of goblin babies, the game screeched to a halt for an hour while I tried to imagine my PC's head-space. The second time, the same thing happened. It still happens today. And that's with the "virtually always evil" guidelines. It sucks. Having some enemies where you can relax the worries and just play a murderhobo is good for the game.
Oh, and what's with the racism in Eberron? I mean, warforged aren't just people, they're people who - as a race - were sadly abused during the Last War. Their reward for having served in everyone else's stupid war? They're forbidden to procreate. Wow. Just wow.
Previous paragraph was rhetorical. Conflict, racism, hatred, misunderstanding, and general intolerance is what helps makes plot happen.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, and what's with the racism in Eberron? I mean, warforged aren't just people, they're people who - as a race - were sadly abused during the Last War. Their reward for having served in everyone else's stupid war? They're forbidden to procreate. Wow. Just wow.Previous paragraph was rhetorical. Conflict, racism, hatred, misunderstanding, and general intolerance is what helps makes plot happen.
WarForged can't procreate on their own... they have to be MADE. They weren't a race hijacked to fight in the Last War... they were living weapons CREATED to wage the Last War. The prohibition is essentially on making more such weapons of mass destruction.
If I were to discover that all of the hydrogen bombs were sentient, I'd still be behind a global prohibition on making more of them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
WRT the LGBTQ community, Golarion offers officially LGBTQ NPCs in positions of power and authority. WRT women, Golarion offers female NPCs in positions of power and authority.
But Eberron does that too. Changelings are by their very nature physically genderfluid, able to become male or female, cis-gender or trans-gender, or anything along a whole spectrum of sex and gender, at will. Warforged are asexual beings (and I am not certain that even Golarion has featured any overtly asexual beings in positions of power and authority) who (mostly) lack gender.
Meanwhile, Eberron's version of the Catholic Church is run by a young woman, the Blood of Vol was founded by a female, and there are several nations and Houses led by females.
So these are mostly a wash.
Now imagine that you are a foreigner, a non-White foreigner, sitting down to play an RPG.
Both campaign settings let you play humans of various ethnicities and cultures. While some of these may superficially resemble real-world ethnicities and cultures, none are exact matches, so this is a wash.
But look more closely. One of the campaign settings features humanoids -- people -- whose identity as people is so denigrated that they seem to exist simply to be killed by the heroes, their lives, land, and property forfeit to members of the PC races by virtue of their race. These people have little or no culture to speak of, no history of import, no contributions to the world they live in. They are "critters" who exist to be slain by their racial superiors.
The other setting has those same humanoids, but developed culturally and historically such that their personhood cannot be denied by simple virtue of their not being a part of the dominant race(s) and culture(s) of the world. In Eberron, goblins ruled the main continent once, and (together with orcs) they saved the world from alien monstrosities. Their cultures may be flawed, but so are those of the humans, gnomes, dwarves, and other PC races that share the world with them. While their cultures may tend towards violence, confrontation, slavery, and other "evil" (or at least unsavory) things, they are also worthy of respect and consideration in their own right, and have undeniably contributed to the history and growth of the world.
As a foreign national and member of a culture other than that of the USA/EU, I know which setting *I* would feel to be more of a comfortable "safe space" to game in.
And it may be that WotC was not aiming for this, while Paizo was -- but that is irrelevant. The fact remains.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Depends on how you define 'Progressive' [I am certainly not a fan of economic policies labeled such.]
I'd say Eberron's treatment of the gods as 'maybe yes maybe no' is pretty progressive.
Paizo tread very lightly in any criticism of economic policy, and non-personal politics in general. We get that Nazis are Bad (Cheliax) and old empires are Decadent (Taldor) but kings and nobles are not all Bad. Lively competition is Good (Andaron, Absalom), maybe reign in the unfettered chase for cash (Druma, Katapesh).
It's quite small c conservative, with maybe a bit of Star Trek utopia. Races tend to be content if they know who they are and are stoic or enjoy it (Gnomes, Halflings and the phlegmatic and generally satisfied Dwarves) or if they live in a post-scarcity environment (Elves of Kyonin, Pathfinder Society pretty much).
I applaud Paizo for trying to fit many political systems in without deliberately advocating one or the other. Sometimes it is writ large for the sake of the story, and sometimes it is an interesting microcosm of politics. I especially like the River Kingdoms/Galt border, where old-fashioned feudalism meets failed revolution.
Golarion is pretty mid-right centrist and it works well enough to describe an imperfect world. It is good that they have gone all-in on racial and sexual politics however. In a world with polymorph and Aasimar and weird, weird people, it is fitting that most people are becoming indifferent to these things.
Having some enemies where you can relax the worries and just play a murderhobo is good for the game.
It might make it EASIER to run and enjoy, but is that really a good thing? What are we accepting about how to treat others who are not (culturally/racially) like us when we game this way?
And it would have been simple to create enemy mooks who players could relax about killing wholesale. Look at Warhammer's "Greenskins" (orcs and goblins, mostly) -- they are one phase in the life cycle of a fungus, that happens to be mobile and sentient. "Birthed" from mushrooms, they have no sex (although they are arguably male in gender), and reproduce via spores sent out when they die (which explains why they are so warlike). They may LOOK a bit like humanoids, but in reality they are so alien in physiology and outlook that an entire community of them could be put to the sword without much moral angst.
Skaven are a step closer to what we are, but they too have no sentient females (their females are huge, "barely sentient" creatures who exist solely to birth litters of Skaven pups as often as possible), and in a way both races make a pro-female statement by being examples of what an entire species might be like if it lacked mothers or female role models (but I digress). They do not have or need "families" as we understand them, and they are by nature and "nurture" a race of backstabbing, treacherous -- well, rats. One could imagine isolated Skaven being raised contrary to the dictates of their culture, but even then, they are creatures "touched by Chaos", which in Warhammer is another way of saying that they are at least in part demonic.
And demons, in almost all game worlds, are as justifiably killed on sight as are the undead -- at least the mindless ones.
Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
Please tell me where Eberron has it's black female iconic paladins, or it's iconics of color, period, it's transgender, gay, lesbian, NPCs?
And changelings at best count for genderfluid, but they're also quite specifically called out as monsters, not normal members of society. And they tend to predominately act as one gender.
Stuff qbout politicsDepends on how you define 'Progressive' [I am certainly not a fan of economic policies labeled such.]
I'd say Eberron's treatment of the gods as 'maybe yes maybe no' is pretty progressive.
That was iust an off-hand remark, no interpretation or criticism of Paizo intended.
RE: 'how is the uncertainty of gods existing progressive.'
It pulls the game out 9f the theistic rut and allows more complex characters and philosophy.
Outside of Forgotten Realms, I generally find that it's board theorycrafters that insist on putting a game world on a theistic rut, more than the setting itself. Iomedae doesn't exactly do personal tours of Lastwall any more than Abadar sets up a booth in Absalom.
And Rahadoum is a whole nation of people who've told the gods and their followers to go piss off.
|
|
Stuff qbout politicsDepends on how you define 'Progressive' [I am certainly not a fan of economic policies labeled such.]
I'd say Eberron's treatment of the gods as 'maybe yes maybe no' is pretty progressive.
That was iust an off-hand remark, no interpretation or criticism of Paizo intended.
RE: 'how is the uncertainty of gods existing progressive.'
It pulls the game out 9f the theistic rut and allows more complex characters and philosophy.
I wouldn't really call that progressive, it's just an alternative. When you know for a act that Deities exist and are people themselves you can have faithful who are complex characters.
Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
Please tell me where Eberron has it's black female iconic paladins, or it's iconics of color, period, it's transgender, gay, lesbian, NPCs?
And changelings at best count for genderfluid, but they're also quite specifically called out as monsters, not normal members of society. And they tend to predominately act as one gender.
As I said earlier none of that actually means its inclusive.
|
|
As I said earlier none of that actually means its inclusive.Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
Please tell me where Eberron has it's black female iconic paladins, or it's iconics of color, period, it's transgender, gay, lesbian, NPCs?
And changelings at best count for genderfluid, but they're also quite specifically called out as monsters, not normal members of society. And they tend to predominately act as one gender.
Then you need to go look up what "inclusive" means.
Then you need to go look up what "inclusive" means.As I said earlier none of that actually means its inclusive.Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
Please tell me where Eberron has it's black female iconic paladins, or it's iconics of color, period, it's transgender, gay, lesbian, NPCs?
And changelings at best count for genderfluid, but they're also quite specifically called out as monsters, not normal members of society. And they tend to predominately act as one gender.
Im sure the definition doesn't include depicting people as massively racist and cartoonish stereotypes.
EDIT:And mind you as I said before they've gotten significantly better at it but there are definitely issues.
|
|
Then you need to go look up what "inclusive" means.As I said earlier none of that actually means its inclusive.Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
Please tell me where Eberron has it's black female iconic paladins, or it's iconics of color, period, it's transgender, gay, lesbian, NPCs?
And changelings at best count for genderfluid, but they're also quite specifically called out as monsters, not normal members of society. And they tend to predominately act as one gender.
Im sure the definition doesn't include depicting people as massively racist and cartoonish stereotypes.
EDIT:
And mind you as I said before they've gotten significantly better at it but there are definitely issues.
When have they ever done that?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Then you need to go look up what "inclusive" means.As I said earlier none of that actually means its inclusive.Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
Please tell me where Eberron has it's black female iconic paladins, or it's iconics of color, period, it's transgender, gay, lesbian, NPCs?
And changelings at best count for genderfluid, but they're also quite specifically called out as monsters, not normal members of society. And they tend to predominately act as one gender.
Im sure the definition doesn't include depicting people as massively racist and cartoonish stereotypes.
EDIT:
And mind you as I said before they've gotten significantly better at it but there are definitely issues.
I take issue with this. I don't really see this as ever having happened in PF, but having other cultures literally represented by "non-humans" is far more in this territory that anything Paizo does.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
Please tell me where Eberron has it's black female iconic paladins, or it's iconics of color, period, it's transgender, gay, lesbian, NPCs?
And changelings at best count for genderfluid, but they're also quite specifically called out as monsters, not normal members of society. And they tend to predominately act as one gender.
I was not a regular Eberron player or GM, but I liked changelings in their flavor & mechanics on pg. 12-13 of the (3.5) Eberron corebook. I also liked the depth of thought and consideration that went into their chapter in the (3.5) Races of Eberron. Unfortunately, everywhere else I ran across a changeling in the published (3.5) WotC materials, they were almost always 1) a sex worker, b) The Vamp, or ) an Unsettling Gender Reveal, or some combo of the three. That always seemed utterly unimaginative, let alone neither progressive nor inclusive.
Edit 1: I quit WotC when they blew up Faerun for 4th edition.
Edit 2: And if you want an example of what I think is a progressive/inclusive shapeshifter race, look at the skindancers in Wayfinder #7 (free!).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"You want to play someone from a traditional Arabic-style culture? Sure, our Arabs are lizardfolk. You can play one of them."
And THIS is not inclusive. It' the polar opposite. It's downright offensive.
How this can still happen in 21st century gaming is beyond me
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
And mind you as I said before they've gotten significantly better at it but there are definitely issues.
Would you mind bringing some examples for what you see as Pathfinder "bizarrely going backwards in ways that no other edition of D&D ever did" at the beginning. And while you're at it, where did they "depict people as massively racist and cartoonish stereotypes?" Because I was there even before Pathfinder started, and I heavily disagree with those opinions.
]Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
And though I really, really like Eberron and might even prefer it over Golarion, I disagree with this opionion as well. The Changelings simply mean nothing as far as gender-inclusivity is concerned. Because you still have to be a member of another race as you might prefer, if you want to use them for this matter. But did Eberron do anything with the human or any other of the core races to give a feeling of more inclusivity? No, they did exactly nothing. Eberron didn't even acknowledge that there are different ethnicities in real life, it didn't care about different genders and sexual orientations. It played a bit with the cultures, yeah but even that was mainly on the side of the non-human races.
So Eberron might be more progressive in terms of worldbuilding, tone and themes, but even that is debatable and depends on which part of Golarion you're actually looking at. But as far as inclusivitiy is concerned, there's nothing to Eberron which is especially inclusive.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I take issue with this. I don't really see this as ever having happened in PF, but having other cultures literally represented by "non-humans" is far more in this territory that anything Paizo does.Then you need to go look up what "inclusive" means.As I said earlier none of that actually means its inclusive.Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
Please tell me where Eberron has it's black female iconic paladins, or it's iconics of color, period, it's transgender, gay, lesbian, NPCs?
And changelings at best count for genderfluid, but they're also quite specifically called out as monsters, not normal members of society. And they tend to predominately act as one gender.
Im sure the definition doesn't include depicting people as massively racist and cartoonish stereotypes.
EDIT:
And mind you as I said before they've gotten significantly better at it but there are definitely issues.
The not Romani people which are depicted as basically a validation of every single racist stereotype of them because of the massive and huge criminal operations that occur with Golarion.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
How this can still happen in 21st century gaming is beyond me
Long, long practice.
I think I recall some Dragon Magazine article (or it might have been a letter- TSR was far from perfect, but my memory of who was responsible is equally subject to error) in the mid-1990s outright advocating this practice as a way to "mix things up."
I believe the direct correlations suggested were things like "Elves as Native Americans" and "Hobgoblins as Turks." (Both, incidentally, absurdly broad multicultural categories hastily bundled together for convenience).
It's been roughly twenty years...or, you know, substantially less time than it's taken the English-speaking entertainment world to internalize that Africa, for example, is not a monocultural monolith...
EDIT: Wow, you think the VARISIANS are a racist caricature because the Scarzni are a thing? Ignoring any and all of the representations of Varisians as a vibrant, welcoming, inclusive culture? You have your fur up because the Roma/Sinti "stand-in" culture encompasses organized crime families which jerks within the setting use to validate discriminatory attitudes toward the entire ethnicity? If anything,I think Varisian culture is presented a little too rosily.
Dude, no. The demon-worshipping slave-taking Bekyar, especially the early writeups of them, would make a better angle for you to grind this particular axe.
|
|
The not Romani people which are depicted as basically a validation of every single racist stereotype of them because of the massive and huge criminal operations that occur with Golarion.I take issue with this. I don't really see this as ever having happened in PF, but having other cultures literally represented by "non-humans" is far more in this territory that anything Paizo does.Then you need to go look up what "inclusive" means.As I said earlier none of that actually means its inclusive.Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
Please tell me where Eberron has it's black female iconic paladins, or it's iconics of color, period, it's transgender, gay, lesbian, NPCs?
And changelings at best count for genderfluid, but they're also quite specifically called out as monsters, not normal members of society. And they tend to predominately act as one gender.
Im sure the definition doesn't include depicting people as massively racist and cartoonish stereotypes.
EDIT:
And mind you as I said before they've gotten significantly better at it but there are definitely issues.
The Sczarni are only a small group (group, not an ethnicity) out of the entirety of Varisians, who make up a good 1/3 - 1/2 of the population of the continent they are on. They're basically the mafia, yeah, but they're a small number, not the entire race. And even then, mafia=bad, yeah, but i don't really see that as a racist and cartoonish caricature.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, because there are a few Varisians that are Sczarni, every Varisian now is a racist caricature? What about all the Varisians depicted in a totally different way in all of the published material?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The heroes must flee their homes, saving whatever friends and supplies they can, as the monstrous Ironfang Legion and their insidious General Azaersi begin carving out an empire of monsters from the dregs of Nirmathas and Molthune alike.
As an aside, and just for the sake of honesty, when I first read this blurb about the first adventure of the Ironfang Invasion AP, my immediate thought was something like: "What? Why should I even try to stop this awesome thing that would be an empire of monsters?
That is one thing, that I agree Eberron handled much better than Golarion does, namely Darguun and Drooam. So while I'll do my best to save Nirmathas and Molthune as is my duty, deep in my heart I'm with General Azaersi all the way :D
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The heroes must flee their homes, saving whatever friends and supplies they can, as the monstrous Ironfang Legion and their insidious General Azaersi begin carving out an empire of monsters from the dregs of Nirmathas and Molthune alike.As an aside, and just for the sake of honesty, when I first read this blurb about the first adventure of the Ironfang Invasion AP, my immediate thought was something like: "What? Why should I even try to stop this awesome thing that would be an empire of monsters?
That is one thing, that I agree Eberron handled much better than Golarion does, namely Darguun and Drooam. So while I'll do my best to save Nirmathas and Molthune as is my duty, deep in my heart I'm with General Azaersi all the way :D
Maybe they'll allow Diplomancy options?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Need I say more?
No, because no power on Earth exists to get me interested in Eberron...