Alright, so I'm going to preface this by saying that I know that mystic theurge isn't great, but this is for a character who would be focused on being a support/ buffer, and I'm going into this knowing that the party he's joining is not very optimized so I was trying to pick something less than optimal, but optimized within that restriction.
So basically, how might you build it, and how might you build something similar in flavor who isn't a mystic theurge, preferably single classed. I'm looking for both, not just one or the other.
None of this is from experience, just my own thoughts on possibly making one, so take this with a grain of salt.
The easiest way to build a mystic theurge would be too build Oracle and sorcerer, just pump your charisma. I'd suggest taking the lame curse probably. The slow spell progression could be tedious with already delayed spells, though. Edit: This combination would make you unable to ever get 9th level spells with either class, if your game goes that high it's something to consider.
Since you're going with a support build you don't really need super high casting stats, so cleric wizard would be easy enough. Depending on your point buy or stat rolls you should be able to easily get a 16 in all the mental stats using racial bonuses and making your character middle aged. You don't really need the charisma though, because channel won't scale well, so you could shuffle those points around.
You'd be less interested in class features, so you could take whatever domains, mysteries, bloodlines, or school you like flavor wise, or to make early levels easier.
Taking your first few levels in your divine casting class would make the early levels easier, what with armor and more health.
In terms of single-class, I think an Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle is one of the cleanest options.
I've also heard that Witch is another extremely serviceable single-class option to play as a MT-style character.
As for how I would build a Mystic Theurge; I would do so using the optional Spellcasting Guild system from Inner Sea Magic, which would grant access to the outstanding guild perks, Eclectic and Esoteric Training, which increase your effective spellcasting level (including spells known/spells per day/etc - same wording as taking a level in a PrC that advances spellcasting) in one class by three and in a second spellcasting class by one.
I'd probably go Cleric 3, Wizard 2, adding the bonus effective level from Eclectic Training to my Wizard side for an effective cleric 3/wizard 3 by 5th level. Starting at 6th level, Mystic Theurge becomes available, advancing spellcasting to cleric 4/wizard 4. By around 7th level, Esoteric Training should be unlocked, increasing the bonus to my effective wizard level to 3 as well as granting a 1 level effective cleric bonus; this would take me from cleric 5/wizard 5 (due to Mystic Theurge 2) to an effective cleric 6/wizard 7. At level 15, you wrap up Mystic Theurge as an effective cleric 14/wizard 15. At 16th, I'd take another level of cleric, advancing to an effective cleric 15. At 17th and 18th, two more levels of wizard to get to effective wizard 17, and then for 19 and 20, two more levels of cleric for an effective cleric 17, and 9th level spells in both classes as a level 20 capstone (in addition to being a cleric 6, which might finally grant access to a domain advancement in some domains. Which is extremely unimpressive, but there it is.)
And even as impressive as that all sounds, due to the massive hit you take to worthwhile class features, I'm still not certain it's even that good.
A lore shaman with the arcane enlightenment hex works as a single class character, from level 1 even. Or if you're patient, any kind of shaman who picks the lore spirit via the wandering hex.
The easiest way to build a mystic theurge would be too build Oracle and sorcerer, just pump your charisma.
I disagree with this. You're right it makes you more of a SAD character, but it also means you don't get 3rd level spells till level 10 (S4/O4/MT2). That's the same level a Paladin/Ranger gets 3rd level spells. At level 11 you'd still be casting 3rd level spells but a Cleric or Wizard would be casting 6th level spells.
HOWEVER I do think making one of your classes spontaneous can be a good idea (It helps take advantage of COMBINED SPELLS). You could make an EMPYREAL SORCERER/Cleric & be totally WIS based (or something similar). It still puts you 4 levels behind a dedicated full caster, but you can take advantage of spontaneously casting your prepared class spells. It also puts you only 1 level behind the fastest spell-progression for a MT, which isn't too much of a loss.
Of course if you use the shenanigans Gulthor mentioned you probably don't need to worry too much about when you get new spell-levels.
Spellslinger wizard + Cleric. Shoot bolts of healing with reach spell rods. Then bam lv14. Disintegrate. Did you choose to fail your save from the healer? Oh I'm sorry. That's why you don't screw with the White Mage
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You could use early entry tricks. The only one I know is Equipment Trick Sunrod, which boosts level of light spells by one. Then you can take the fIrst MT level at fourth and remain somewhat competitive.
Spellslinger wizard + Cleric. Shoot bolts of healing with reach spell rods. Then bam lv14. Disintegrate. Did you choose to fail your save from the healer? Oh I'm sorry. That's why you don't screw with the White Mage
I had to go back and reread arcane gun, I thought it only worked for arcane spells. Other than flavor I'm not sure why you'd shoot a cure spell, it does nothing but offer a misfire chance.
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Here are my thoughts on how to be the only spellcaster in a party. (One of these days I'm going to have to update this for the Sunrod trick and the Faith Magic trick, the latter being useful if you want to be primarily a Wizard but have more than the most minor side of divine casting.)
Oh yeah, just remembered two things I was considering for it. One I was thinking Nethys for his deity, seemed thematically appropriate.
Two, normally I don't like the Ecclesitheurge, but since I need to not wear armor anyways for the arcane spellcasting, Do you think it would be good for it?
You could always try something like bard/cleric. That's some serious party support there.
You actually get entry to MT at the same level as if you'd gone with sorcerer/cleric, but with a more "buff the team" kinda feel. It also lets you cast in armour (even if it's only light armour).
The only problem with it is that a lot of the features that make a bard great don't scale with MT. You'd probably have to invest in EXTRA PERFORMANCE & stuff.
I was thinking Nethys for his deity, seemed thematically appropriate.
very appropriate, I was thinking the same thing for mine.
You could always try something like bard/cleric. That's some serious party support there.
You actually get entry to MT at the same level as if you'd gone with sorcerer/cleric, but with a more "buff the team" kinda feel. It also lets you cast in armour (even if it's only light armour).
The only problem with it is that a lot of the features that make a bard great don't scale with MT. You'd probably have to invest in EXTRA PERFORMANCE & stuff.
For this kind of build I'd go with an evangelist cleric rather than a bard. You'd also lose out on the higher bonuses for bardic performance, so extra performance wouldn't fix everything. The big advantage bard would have, in my opinion, is access to saving finale and glibness.
For this kind of build I'd go with an evangelist cleric rather than a bard. You'd also lose out on the higher bonuses for bardic performance, so extra performance wouldn't fix everything. The big advantage bard would have, in my opinion, is access to saving finale and glibness.
Yeah I was trying to think of a way to get armoured arcane casting & the whole "Team buff" thing just seemed to fit bard.
The problem with bard is that a lot of their "Team Buff" stuff doesn't scale with MT.It's worth throwing ideas out there though, even if we disagree we might come up with new things for each other (For example I've never really looked at an Evangelist Cleric till now =D )
Evangelist cleric is a great buffer, yes.
For a mystic theurge buff characters I'd go cleric/wizard. (Or maybe druid/wizard, hmm...) You're MAD, but most of your spells are going on friendly characters who won't be saving against them, so you don't need high spell save DCs or spell penetration rolls against SR, and can get along quite well starting with 14s or 16s in two spellcasting stats instead of 18/20 in one.
You get higher spell levels 2 levels before a sorc/oracle. Plus your wizard bonus feat of Scribe Scroll lets you leverage your incredibly high spell selection -- you will ALWAYS have the right spell available. And pretty much everything is on your wand list, too. Craft Wand is a worthwhile feat -- and Improved Familiar at 9th level so your familiar can use wands.
One nice possiblity with a cleric/wizard/MT -- you can use your wizard slots for spells with no somatic components, or for long-term buffs cast earlier in the day, and then use your cleric slots for in-combat casting, which isn't affected by armor. You could even take Heavy Armor Proficiency, if you have enough strength, and show up in full plate.)
Half-elf is probably the race with best support for mystic theurges:
Alternative racial trait Multidisciplined: +1 CL for two chosen caster classes
Race trait Bifurcated Magic: same, and it stacks
Cleric & wizard is the most conservative entry into half-elf, because it minimizes the amount of necessary levels* and minimizes the amount of lost class features (druid has more to lose than cleric). Now, with both the racial trait and the race trait you cut down the -3 to CL to -1. If you want a -0, you can pull the good old Magical Knack. While it doesn't stack with Bifurcated Magic, it overwrites one +1 with a +2, resulting in no CL lost at all, for one class. You will still have to spend 7 levels on the class to get to 9th level casting, though.
* Unless you are allowed to pull some trick based on racial SLAs or equipment or whatever. I wouldn't allow it.
Druid & sorcerer is more attractive nowadays, because there is the Feyspeaker archetype for the former, using Cha as casting stat.
Personally, I haven't given up on oracle & sorcerer yet - I think it just needs a good plan to cover level 6 to 15 (you get 6th level spells at level 16, catching up with 6th level casters).
For this kind of build I'd go with an evangelist cleric rather than a bard. You'd also lose out on the higher bonuses for bardic performance, so extra performance wouldn't fix everything. The big advantage bard would have, in my opinion, is access to saving finale and glibness.Yeah I was trying to think of a way to get armoured arcane casting & the whole "Team buff" thing just seemed to fit bard.
The problem with bard is that a lot of their "Team Buff" stuff doesn't scale with MT.It's worth throwing ideas out there though, even if we disagree we might come up with new things for each other (For example I've never really looked at an Evangelist Cleric till now =D )
I always like seeing new ideas, my input was meant to be collaborative not argumentative.
One nice possiblity with a cleric/wizard/MT -- you can use your wizard slots for spells with no somatic components, or for long-term buffs cast earlier in the day, and then use your cleric slots for in-combat casting, which isn't affected by armor. You could even take Heavy Armor Proficiency, if you have enough strength, and show up in full plate.)
I just want to clarify this, since the MT can use cleric spell slots for wizard spells, that arcane spells still have armor check penalties regardless of which slots you use, unless there is a ruling I'm missing. Edit: I went back and reread the MT combine spells ability and its not as clear as I thought, check with your gm on this.
A lore shaman with the arcane enlightenment hex works as a single class character, from level 1 even. Or if you're patient, any kind of shaman who picks the lore spirit via the wandering hex.
A spirit guide oracle with arcane enlightenment from his wandering spirit is a similar way to do this. It plays quite well IMHO. I wish mine hadn't met an untimely end, he was gonna be so badass!
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A lore shaman with the arcane enlightenment hex works as a single class character, from level 1 even. Or if you're patient, any kind of shaman who picks the lore spirit via the wandering hex.A spirit guide oracle with arcane enlightenment from his wandering spirit is a similar way to do this. It plays quite well IMHO. I wish mine hadn't met an untimely end, he was gonna be so badass!
Note that this is a highly debated option. Many people feel that since arcane enlightenment adds spells you can prepare, and that since the oracle doesn't prepare spells, that this hex does nothing for the oracle.
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For the sake of already dealing with a less than optimized group, I'm going to avoid any early entry shenanigans, and I'm thinking ecclesitheurge cleric 3/wizard 3 (haven't considered any archetypes for wizard, any I should consider? )into MT at 7th.
Sheepish, I hadn't even thought about rave, but your suggestions look great thank you so much.
Neils, I think he was suggesting using wizard spells for non-somatic, and Cleric spells for everything else, though I could be wrong. I don't know when I'll be able to start this, but I'll try to keep you guys updated.
Also, school suggestions for the wizard side?
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I think a cleric/wizard focused on crafting might be fun. You could help your allies by making them some nice gear.
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I just want to clarify this, since the MT can use cleric spell slots for wizard spells, that arcane spells still have armor check penalties regardless of which slots you use, unless there is a ruling I'm missing. Edit: I went back and reread the MT combine spells ability and its not as clear as I thought, check with your gm on this.
One nice possiblity with a cleric/wizard/MT -- you can use your wizard slots for spells with no somatic components, or for long-term buffs cast earlier in the day, and then use your cleric slots for in-combat casting, which isn't affected by armor. You could even take Heavy Armor Proficiency, if you have enough strength, and show up in full plate.)
I think what tonyz meant was that you prepare Wizard spells that you cast before you put your armor on (and that have a long enough duration to be worth doing this with) or that don't have Somatic components, and then thereafter during each day you cast Cleric spells and the occasional Wizard spell that doesn't have a Somatic component.
Also, Mystic Theurge Combined Spells says "The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell." "Follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell" implies that if you use your Cleric class to cast a Wizard spell, it counts as a divine spell, and has no arcane spell failure chance, whereas if you use your Wizard class to cast a Cleric spell, it counts as an arcane spell, and has arcane spell failure chance.
Alright, so I have the cleric side set up, what I need now is wizard stuff. Few of the archetypes appeal to me so I'm thinking vanilla wizard, does anyone have any favorites they think I should check out?
I'm not too well versed on wizards (I usually play spontaneous casters or martial characters) so what schools do people suggest? I'm thinking maybe universalist for flavor, but I worry I might lose out on something that works well for this that I haven't considered.
As is, I've got 3 levels of ecclesitheurge 3 of wizard, half elf with multi disciplined and bifurcated magic for traits.
Oh and I just remembered, my dm will allow my bonded holy symbol from ecclesitheurge also be my bonded object for wizard of I choose that, but I've often heard people advise against a bonded object on wizard, so thoughts? If I did I was thinking am amulet that is Nethys' mask. Any better bonded objects?
I happen to like the bonded object, it does have some big penalties if you lose the item, but I like the extra spell and it fits with my idea of a wizard.
I would go with a vanilla wizard, the school you pick depends on whether your GM you considers school spell slots an ability you get at first level and scales with level of spells you cast, which is how I see it, or if it's a benefit you get at the level you get new spells.
In the former case you get school spell slots for every spell level, and I'd probably pick transmutation for buffing. In the later you only get a few of them, and may be better off as a universalist.
Edit: Amulet is fine for the bonded object, ring could be slightly better, but not enough to matter in my opinion.
Transmutation might help you shore up an odd physical stat.
Admixture Evocation might be helpful if you plan on blasting or using other energy-based spells.
I'm not really up on the low level Spell School abilities.
Alright, so I have the cleric side set up, what I need now is wizard stuff. Few of the archetypes appeal to me so I'm thinking vanilla wizard, does anyone have any favorites they think I should check out?
I'm not too well versed on wizards (I usually play spontaneous casters or martial characters) so what schools do people suggest? I'm thinking maybe universalist for flavor, but I worry I might lose out on something that works well for this that I haven't considered.
As is, I've got 3 levels of ecclesitheurge 3 of wizard, half elf with multi disciplined and bifurcated magic for traits.
Oh and I just remembered, my dm will allow my bonded holy symbol from ecclesitheurge also be my bonded object for wizard of I choose that, but I've often heard people advise against a bonded object on wizard, so thoughts? If I did I was thinking am amulet that is Nethys' mask. Any better bonded objects?
Remember that you can enchant your bonded item without the relevant feat, as long as your caster level is high enough. This means that a Holy Symbol amulet could be enchanted as a wonderous item, and you could make your wizard bonded object a wand.
Does your group use third party materials?
We use 3rd party items on a case by case basis, I'm open to 3rd party suggestions, though I'd prefer to use these classes.