Hammers, the forgotten weapon

[World's Okayest Fighter]

So for a lot of characters I've made and a lot of other characters I've seen made, hammers have been almost an entirely unseen weapon choice. It really feels like just about every other weapon type has something up on the hammer; swords have better crit ranges, polearms have reach, and bows are just amazing. Sure, you might have a backup hammer for bludgeoning against skeletons/oozes, but even in APs, the weapon choice almost never includes hammers, they're rarely in treasure, and they're severely lacking when it comes to specific magical ones.

Hammers are like really cool, but a high crit multiplier doesn't really make them that good because for the most part higher crit threat ranges are better, and hammers don't even have the best crit multiplier (scythes/sickles are better for crit fishing and butterfly sting shenanigans), so there's really not a lot of base value for the hammer in most games.

Please, tell me about anything you've done to make hammers better and or awesome examples of hammer using characters you've played!

[SheepishEidolon]

There is a bit of hammer specific content:

* Fighter's foehammer archetype, quite nice on paper
* Smashing Style (ok, requires hammer, axe or flail), focused on sundering
* Blessed Hammer feat, allows a cleric of Torag to deliver touch spells via hammer
* Bounding Hammer feat, makes thrown hammers return to you

Beside that, at low level earthbreaker can compete with greatsword and warhammer with longsword - both mean solid damage and crits for little investment. And both hammers make a nice diversion from all those swords. If you want to optimize, you can still switch to other weapons later.

[Mark Carlson 255]

Unfortunately it is a limitation of the game system, IMHO you would have to dramatically alter the system to make hammers and their ilk better represented in the game.
ie hammer's in RL are better at defeating hard armor (IIRC) so they should get a bonus vs specific armor types.
MDC

[Rub-Eta]

Outside of small number differences, most weapons of the same size aren't too different (aside from some of the special properties, such as reach). There's not that much within the rest of the system that differentiate your choice of weapons either.

Take Longsword and Warhammer for example: Both are One-Handed Martial Weapons. The average damage is about the same (19-20/x2 and x3 are about the same, difference is in crit feats, etc-etc). The only "real" difference is the damage type.

So if you want to use hammers, use hammers.

[The Dandy Lion]

Rub-Eta wrote:

Outside of small number differences, most weapons of the same size aren't too different (aside from some of the special properties, such as reach). There's not that much within the rest of the system that differentiate your choice of weapons either.

Take Longsword and Warhammer for example: Both are One-Handed Martial Weapons. The average damage is about the same (19-20/x2 and x3 are about the same, difference is in crit feats, etc-etc). The only "real" difference is the damage type.

So if you want to use hammers, use hammers.

Getting a higher crit range is typically better than a crit multiplier.

It scales better with critical focus and equivalent effects, and getting smaller crits more regularly is likely to get value. A x3 crit in many places will be overkill, whereas a more consistent flow of x2 crits will get that clutch kill more often.

It's a shame, because I much prefer axes, hammers and polearms to swords, myself. But at least Scimitars are cool.

That said, for most groups, this is one place I'd pick flavour over optimal selections, unless I was playing a Magus/Swashbuckler.

[Paradozen]

Just going to point out that the Dwarven Longhammer and Lucerne Hammer have reach. And for sunder builds, the Lucerne Hammer and Piston Maul are fantastic.

[The Dandy Lion]

Oh, this is very true. The Lucerne Hammer in general is a pretty excellent weapon.

[Heksfazia, the Neverdemon]

Paradozen wrote:

Just going to point out that the Dwarven Longhammer and Lucerne Hammer have reach. And for sunder builds, the Lucerne Hammer and Piston Maul are fantastic.

The Dandy Lion wrote:

Oh, this is very true. The Lucerne Hammer in general is a pretty excellent weapon.

"Oh, my dear sweet Lucy..."

*caresses her hammer*

[deuxhero]

I've always felt Rogue should have an archetype that does nothing but trade their, frankly, bizarre proficiencies for handaxe, light hammer, and light pick. It also makes more sense for a gang to carry around tools in town over exotic court swords invented after firearms were standard on the battlefield.

[Shinae]

I like dwarven longhammer for my reach warpriest. 2d6 for reach weapon isn't that bad. Besides dwarf with hammer > dwarf with an axe imo.

[KahnyaGnorc]

I prefer an Earthbreaker to a Greataxe, due to more-consistent damage of 2d6 vs 1d12. In fact, a lot of my 2her characters use an Earthbreaker.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

The problem I have with bludgeoning weapons in general is their beyond crappy critical multipliers.

All of the good critical multiplier weapons are slashing or piercing (or in rare cases, both).

In my opinion, for bludgeoning weapons to have more appeal besides "Well, they have DR/Bludgeoning, better make sure I have a back-up weapon," they need a boost, most specifically in their critical multiplier department.

Seriously, the Earthbreaker is the absolute best bludgeoning weapon, because it has the best bludgeoning multiplier (X3) and very solid damage dice (2D6), but even that won't compare to weapons like the Nodachi (18-20/X2, D10 damage, slashing and piercing), or even weapons with X4 multipliers.

[KotC ChaiGuy]

As long as we're talking about the earthbreaker, there is the feat Thunder and Fang.

I've never used it, but it could work well with a strength based ranger or slayer.

[Rub-Eta]

The Dandy Lion wrote:

It scales better with critical focus and equivalent effects, and getting smaller crits more regularly is likely to get value. A x3 crit in many places will be overkill, whereas a more consistent flow of x2 crits will get that clutch kill more often.

Minor details, absolutely nothing to dictate the choice of weapon.

[SheepishEidolon]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Seriously, the Earthbreaker is the absolute best bludgeoning weapon, because it has the best bludgeoning multiplier (X3) and very solid damage dice (2D6), but even that won't compare to weapons like the Nodachi (18-20/X2, D10 damage, slashing and piercing), or even weapons with X4 multipliers.

With Str 18 and Power Attack (favorable assumptions for the nodachi) you get a damage bonus of +9 on level 1. 20/x3 crits are roughly equivalent to +10% average damage, 18-20/x2 to +15%. I can provide the math for this on demand. But for now let's look on average damage per hit:

Nodachi: (5.5 + 6 + 3) * 1.15 = 16.675
Earthbreaker: (7 + 6 + 3) * 1.1 = 17.6

So on low level earthbreaker is a tad better damage wise. Let's move on to level 8, with +2 weapons, 4 more Str points, +2 from random class features and +9 via Power Attack:

Nodachi: (5.5 + 2 + 2 + 9 + 9) * 1.15 = 31.625
Earthbreaker: (7 + 2 + 2 + 9 + 9) * 1.1 = 31.9

Now we are closing to break-even. Adding special effects to your crits finally makes the nodachi superior, more bonus damage of course helps also (as long as multiplied via crits, that is).

[Brolof]

I've got a Dwarven Foehammer with a Longhammer. Mixed with the first feat in Smashing Style and the Sunder and Bullrush chains, he's a debuffing, area of control fighter that can at the same time do good damage if need be. Longhammer is a good weapon, only thing holding it back is the Exotic Weapon part.

[Caitlyn Weissman]

The Dandy Lion wrote:

Oh, this is very true. The Lucerne Hammer in general is a pretty excellent weapon.

Hammer wielders represent!

[pH unbalanced]

Brolof wrote:

I've got a Dwarven Foehammer with a Longhammer. Mixed with the first feat in Smashing Style and the Sunder and Bullrush chains, he's a debuffing, area of control fighter that can at the same time do good damage if need be. Longhammer is a good weapon, only thing holding it back is the Exotic Weapon part.

We had a Foehammer in our group who fought Hammer & Shield. Very nice defenses, and he destroyed everything he was able to engage with. He also had the Bounding Hammer feat (and Gloves of Arrow Snaring) so he could bounce hammers off your skull at range.

[DM Livgin]

I'm sad there is no exotic, one handed, 1d10 hammer. scowls at the bastard sword, and dwarven waraxe.

[Azten]

Up until his death, my Dwarf Paladin enjoyed his Lifesurge Warhammer. The healing and extra crit range came in handy against quite a few of the tougher fights in Carrion Crown.

[PK the Dragon]

I like the Earthbreaker. No, it's not the absolute best weapon I could be using. But it's flavorful and I actually kinda like crits being rarer but more explosive when they happen. As long as I'm not playing a game that is "test the party to their absolute limits".

[memorax]

My next character will be specializing in a Earthbreaker and who will be called Bastinado. To me their something intimdating about such a large weapon.

[Imbicatus]

A dwarf Nature Fang Druid who worships Torag and has the blessed hammer feat is very close to a divine magus.

[Torbyne]

I have always been partial to the Tetsubo, which is kind of a hammer... Light hammers find their way into most of my characters belts for a few levels at least but warhammers... i think its the ridiculous illustrations for them maybe but i've never been drawn to them in this system.

[Sah]

I didn't forget it, it's right here.

Jokes aside, I've found that the earth breaker has been a fine weapon, and I'm regularly the highest melee damage dealer with my bloodrager. I mean I'm a Shoanti Bloodrager, the only time I'm not using it is when I got so angry I turned into a dragon.

[The Pale King]

Torbyne wrote:

I have always been partial to the Tetsubo, which is kind of a hammer... Light hammers find their way into most of my characters belts for a few levels at least but warhammers... i think its the ridiculous illustrations for them maybe but i've never been drawn to them in this system.

I absolutely love the Tetsubo, but have never used one in Pathfinder.

[taks]

The Giantslayer AP features 2 epic (artifact) hammers, both of which are rather amazing. However, I would still like to see an actual 2-handed hammer, e.g., a heavy warhammer.

[Klorox]

The Pale King wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

I have always been partial to the Tetsubo, which is kind of a hammer... Light hammers find their way into most of my characters belts for a few levels at least but warhammers... i think its the ridiculous illustrations for them maybe but i've never been drawn to them in this system.

I absolutely love the Tetsubo, but have never used one in Pathfinder.

The tetsubo generally being classified as an EW (short of houseruling) is likely to blame for it. Even in PF, devoting one precious feat to a WP is a decision one does not easily come to, unless it's central to character concept.

[Bandw2]

hammers should all be knocked down a proficiency.

everyone knows how hammers work.

[Klorox]

and clubs, even great clubs are even simpler... never got why the tetsubo wasclassified as "exotic" given it must not take that much special training to use efficiently.

[Tacticslion]

It's because it's... "exotic" - get it?

Hah~!

... sigh.

[Klorox]

It's as exotic as a studded club goes, and that's not far... I mean, a nodachi or naginata are equally exotic, and they are martial weapons... I understand the katana being exotic as it's essentially a bastard sword.

[Imbicatus]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Whoever statted the tetsubo forgot that scythe was made a martial weapon instead of exotic, and set tetsubo as exotic because it's a similar damage profile to the scythe.

[Heksfazia, the Neverdemon]

The Dandy Lion wrote:

Oh, this is very true. The Lucerne Hammer in general is a pretty excellent weapon.

Caitlyn Weissman wrote:

Hammer wielders represent!

"H-hey! My eyes are up here, little missy." Hexy says in a demanding tone.

She stares suspiciously, and one eyelid twitches slightly.

Softly, under her breath, she adds, "Lucy is mine. Don't even think about it..."

*mutter mutter*

Then, cooingly, toward her hammer, "Don't worry, Sweet One. I know you're a one-woman kind of lady. I'll take good care of you..."

She puts suspicious eyes back toward this "Weissman" character, holding her hammer protectively.

[Tacticslion]

Klorox wrote:

It's as exotic as a studded club goes, and that's not far... I mean, a nodachi or naginata are equally exotic, and they are martial weapons... I understand the katana being exotic as it's essentially a bastard sword.

Hey, you're not getting an argument from me!

I'm giving you a reason - doesn't necessarily mean it's a valid one!

The Nodachi and Naginata, however, are on different lists than the tetsubo

Imbicatus wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Whoever statted the tetsubo forgot that scythe was made a martial weapon instead of exotic, and set tetsubo as exotic because it's a similar damage profile to the scythe.

This, too.

[Bluenose]

Bandw2 wrote:

hammers should all be knocked down a proficiency.

everyone knows how hammers work.

So could you explain how you use one to deflect a sword slash without guiding that thrust onto your hand? How often do you use the spike that's usually found on the opposite side to the hammer-head, and why would you do that? What is the spike frequently found at the opposite end used for? How often, if you're using a lucerne hammer with a spear point, would you thrust instead of swinging, and what the purpose of doing that is?

NOBODY should pick up any weapon without training and think it's simple. I've seen someone who used axes for cutting wood pick up a sharp fighting axe and swing it, and that needed an ambulance and surgery so I'd rather people didn't get the idea weapons are somehow easy.

[pH unbalanced]

Bluenose wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

hammers should all be knocked down a proficiency.

everyone knows how hammers work.

So could you explain how you use one to deflect a sword slash without guiding that thrust onto your hand? How often do you use the spike that's usually found on the opposite side to the hammer-head, and why would you do that? What is the spike frequently found at the opposite end used for? How often, if you're using a lucerne hammer with a spear point, would you thrust instead of swinging, and what the purpose of doing that is?

NOBODY should pick up any weapon without training and think it's simple. I've seen someone who used axes for cutting wood pick up a sharp fighting axe and swing it, and that needed an ambulance and surgery so I'd rather people didn't get the idea weapons are somehow easy.

Yeah, weapons as unbalanced as hammers are actually fairly difficult to use in combat. I gave myself a pretty bad case of tendonitis from trying to use a mace like a sword and was unable to fight for about six months.

The worst is the morning star/flail. My troupe wouldn't even let you pick one up until you had about two years of training. It's ridiculously easy to take out your front knee with one of those things.

The real danger with a long hammer would be taking out allies, though. You really can't control your follow through at all, so you have to really think before you swing.

[GM_Beernorg]

Bluenose makes an excellent point.

Sure, you can flail around with anything you pickup, it takes time to actually be any good with any melee or missile weapon.

I know this from personal experience, I own what you may as well call an armory, swords of all kinds, daggers, fighting knives, mace, pickback warhammer, a greataxe (alas, a poorly balanced and overblown design, wish it was an actual Dane axe, would be a hell of allot more useful) and several long and short bows to boot. All battle ready and very sharp or with enough pull to be deadly.

Everyone of those weapons can hurt you very easily when you do not know what you are doing.

A person can be great with a claw hammer, using it as a tool, that is nowhere close to being good with a pick-backed warhammer. (hence, martial proficiency)

That said, I have PC's use hammers often, the good old warhammer is far from forgotten round our home table.

(what is it you think happens to my pumpkins after Halloween...;) )

[KahnyaGnorc]

taks wrote:

The Giantslayer AP features 2 epic (artifact) hammers, both of which are rather amazing. However, I would still like to see an actual 2-handed hammer, e.g., a heavy warhammer.

Isn't an Earthbreaker a 2-handed hammer?

[Gallagher and The SledgeOMatic]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

taks wrote:

The Giantslayer AP features 2 epic (artifact) hammers, both of which are rather amazing. However, I would still like to see an actual 2-handed hammer, e.g., a heavy warhammer.

Isn't an Earthbreaker a 2-handed hammer?

Why, yes, my friend, indeed it is! And what is the best brand earthbreaker out there?

Ladies and gentlemen, I did not come here to answer questions. I came here tonight to sell you something; I want you to pay particular attention! Because the Amazing Masterwork Corporation, Ace Subsidiary of the Fly-by-Knight Industries has entrusted who, ME, to show you the handiest, dandiest killing tool you've ever seen, and don't you want to know how it works?

Well first you get out an ordinary Sleep spell or two and place it upon the enemy. And then have the Fighter reach for the tool. It is not a slicer, not a dicer, not a chopper or a hopper. What in the 9 Hells could it possibly be? It is SLEDGE-O-MATIC!

What does it do to heads? SQUISH!

What does it do to skeletons? SMASH!

SLEDGE-O-MATIC gets the last dab out of that potion! SPLAT!

Ain't this just like a (adventuring) party?

SLEDGE-O-MATIC flattens continual light torches for easy storage! THUMP!

SLEDGE-O-MATIC works as no ordinary tranquilizer can! You AM BARBARIAN, and you need to release this RAGE-gression against this damn roleplaying game! No, it ain't the game itself! It's this damn non-player character! It's the nonplayer character! CRUNCH!

[Gamemaster Zedth]

I love hammers! I love the flavor of them in my RP and in other games (video games, wargaming, etc).

In my PbP game here on Paizo the party found an artifact-intelligent weapon that is a gaudy golden hammer that can shape shift into any bludgeoning weapon. It is named Mjolvandr. Here are its stats:

Mjolvandr:
This weapon appears to be made mostly of gold with platinum trimming and is adorned with gaudy amounts of various precious gemstones. In any of its physical forms, the bludgeoning end always appears as a gem-encrusted treasure chest.

It is haughty, obsessed with battle, can communicate verbally in a typical fashion or telepathically with any creature that speaks a language within 100'. Its personality and voice seem to indicate that it is male. It can shine with bright light (equivalent to a torch) when it gets excited, especially during battle.

In addition to those mentioned above, so far it has manifested the following properties:

•The hammer grants the wielder proficiency in its use and will allow any weapon feats (such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization) already possessed by the wielder to apply to its use.

•While it prefers the form of a hammer, the wielder can will it to change its form from one weapon to another as a full-round action, though it can only take the form of bludgeoning weapons.

•Its treasure-chest-head is a magical storage device, able to hold a significant amount of weight. (Equivalent to a Bag of Holding Type III.) The chest will only willingly open for the wielder, but can be opened with a disable device skill check, DC 40.

•1/day the weapon may grant the wielder the benefits of Iron Will and Improved Iron Will against one spell or attack requiring a Will save, at the cost of 1d6 shock damage and 1d4 wisdom damage. This benefit can only occur during combat. These benefits stack with any existing feats of the same name that the wielder may already possess.

Its weapon type/shape magical properties can act in 1 of 2 ways:

•Acts as a +2 weapon with an additional floating "+1" able to take one of the following "+1 equivalent" magic properties: corrosive, defending, flaming, frost, keen, merciful, shock, thundering, throwing. This variable "+1" can be changed any number of times but it requires an hour of attunement to readjust. Once a selection has been made it will remain indefinitely.

•It can mimic a magic weapon that is placed inside of its extradimensional space, but it grants a further +1 enhancement bonus. (example, a +4 keen sword would = +5 keen hammer.) (Special - This mimicry allows it to ignore the prequisite of a piercing/slashing weapon required for Keen weapons.) The mimicked weapon must remain inside Mjolvandr for it to retain the weapon's magical qualities. This variable mimicry can be changed any number of times but it requires an hour of attunement to readjust. Once a selection has been made it will remain indefinitely, or until the mimicked weapon is removed from the extradimensional space.

[memorax]

Gallagher and The SledgeOMatic wrote:

Why, yes, my friend, indeed it is! And what is the best brand earthbreaker out there?

Ladies and gentlemen, I did not come here to answer questions. I came here tonight to sell you something; I want you to pay particular attention! Because the Amazing Masterwork Corporation, Ace Subsidiary of the Fly-by-Knight Industries has entrusted who, ME, to show you the handiest, dandiest killing tool you've ever seen, and don't you want to know how it works?

Well first you get out an ordinary Sleep spell or two and place it upon the enemy. And then have the Fighter reach for the tool. It is not a slicer, not a dicer, not a chopper or a hopper. What in the 9 Hells could it possibly be? It is SLEDGE-O-MATIC!

What does it do to heads? SQUISH!

What does it do to skeletons? SMASH!

SLEDGE-O-MATIC gets the last dab out of that potion! SPLAT!

Ain't this just like a (adventuring) party?

SLEDGE-O-MATIC flattens continual light torches for easy storage! THUMP!

SLEDGE-O-MATIC works as no ordinary tranquilizer can! You AM BARBARIAN, and you need to release this RAGE-gression against this damn roleplaying game! No, it ain't the game itself! It's this damn non-player character! It's the nonplayer character! CRUNCH!

All that's missing is a Golarion version of Ash from Evil Dead.

"Listen you primitive Golarion screwheads this is my bang stick".

[taks]

Sold!

I guess I didn't considered the earthbreaker because it's kind of unwieldy, but functionally, it is a heavy warhamner.