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You can get the strong impression in Pathfinder that most if not all undead are evil. Is this correct? And, if so, can there be a good undead (fill in the blank)?
Also, I know character races like the half-undead Dhampir can be good, but what about undead who are unwillingly or unintentionally undead. Take the undead of Geb for instance. They are mortals who are controlled by Geb and his minions once they die. It's not their fault they're undead. They are taken control of by another person. Do they lose the memories of their former lives?
How does this work exactly?
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Your impression is correct, the vast majority of undead are evil.
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In the Golarion setting undeath is intrinsically evil. In a home game it's whatever the GM wants it to be; Pathfinder by itself doesn't stipulate that they must be evil.
What they said...
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You can get the strong impression in Pathfinder that most if not all undead are evil. Is this correct? And, if so, can there be a good undead (fill in the blank)?
YES THERE CAN BE. But they are always individual unique exceptions to the rule. The process of becoming undead generally drives even good-hearted individuals to evil. There are exceptions but they ARE rare.
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Undead are as evil as an orc is evil or a dwarf is lawful. The do not have difficulty changing alignments like demons or angels, and can easily be any alignment but generally they are evil. But if you are playing in Golarion then it uses the houserule of "All Undead Are Evil... expect for ghosts and a handful of unique non-evil undead".
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Yeah, some ghosts are the only exceptions I can think of. But there are also good in life people who become evil ghosts in undeath.
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A pulse is not a prerequisite to being loved! Undead are people too! Stop the senseless necrophobia!
It's hard enough being a walking corpse without people throwing the "E" word at you every chance they get.
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A pulse is not a prerequisite to being loved! Undead are people too! Stop the senseless necrophobia!
It's hard enough being a walking corpse without people throwing the "E" word at you every chance they get.
Oh, boy. Another one of those "Undead Rights" activists.
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There are non-evil undead in the bestiaries (e.g. Ectoplasmic Humans are Neutral).
Moreover, some undead are intelligent and insofar as you're intelligent you're free to be good. You may have done unspeakable things to become a Lich, but nothing's stopping you from using your immortality and tremendous magical power to help people.
What's weird to me is how mindless creatures can be evil. In the original Monstrous Manual skeletons were neutral (since they just did whatever the Wizard who made them tells them to, they were basically automata.)
Undeath is an unnatural state of the soul that gradually degrades the psyche and integrity of the spirit. Any undead that isn't evil will eventually become evil with time.
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What's weird to me is how mindless creatures can be evil. In the original Monstrous Manual skeletons were neutral (since they just did whatever the Wizard who made them tells them to, they were basically automata.)
You haven't watched enough zombie movies.
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No, obviously all undead are misunderstood chaotic good rangers wielding two scimitars who are trying to fight against the schemes of their more evil kin (of which there are none since they are all chaotic good rangers).
...ok, now that that joke is out of the way: Ghosts are the usual way if you want non -evil undead (although that doesn't stop them from being crazy and powerful). Most other forms of undead carry unavoidable evil though. There might be exceptions, but they re exceedingly rare and for story purposes they should remain that way (else you get a bunch of drizzt'es).
Generally, either go with ghosts or try for maybe an amicable LE undead (ie- make them on par with the local cleric of Asmodeus... more than willing to make a deal; they can honestly be more fun than just trying to make something 'redeemed' or whatever).
Sidenote: could a caster ghost magic jar their own, unintelligent undead body? That could be worth a laugh.
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No, obviously all undead are misunderstood chaotic good rangers wielding two scimitars who are trying to fight against the schemes of their more evil kin (of which there are none since they are all chaotic good rangers).
...ok, now that that joke is out of the way: Ghosts are the usual way if you want non -evil undead (although that doesn't stop them from being crazy and powerful). Most other forms of undead carry unavoidable evil though. There might be exceptions, but they re exceedingly rare and for story purposes they should remain that way (else you get a bunch of drizzt'es).
Generally, either go with ghosts or try for maybe an amicable LE undead (ie- make them on par with the local cleric of Asmodeus... more than willing to make a deal; they can honestly be more fun than just trying to make something 'redeemed' or whatever).
Sidenote: could a caster ghost magic jar their own, unintelligent undead body? That could be worth a laugh.
Remember that in most cases, even good people are generally driven to evil as ghosts by the trauma of their passing, and their enforced isolation. No one becomes a ghost because of a happy happy event.
The incorporeal isolation of a ghost has got to be one of the most frustrating existences that anyone could be forced to endure. Especially for the unfortunate ones that are actually aware of their condition.
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Sidenote: could a caster ghost magic jar their own, unintelligent undead body? That could be worth a laugh.
In DC Comics "Darkest Night" Boston "Deadman" Brand's corpse is raised as a Black Lantern, and Brand tries to posess it. The result... was not pretty.
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yeah... even a good ghost on a good day might have flashbacks and confuse you for its murderer and try to wipe you out.
It is just the most readily recognized and found opportunity to see nonevil undead.
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Evil people can have personalities. And they can be slightly evil rather than rampantly evil. I just ran a revenant, Wolfgang, in my campaign. He was an undead boatman cursed to transport people to a fog-shrouded lake for one gold piece per person. He was a gregarious fellow and in life had been a good-aligned cavalier. The evil had started tainting him as an undead, in that for example, he was desperate to kill the person who had wrongfully executed him for a crime he did not commit. I played his as this gregarious, chain-smoking figure who occasionally lasped into bouts of melancholia over his undead status. His being undead was driving him insane basically. Evil on the basis of insanity caused by being undead. But still capable of being good at times. He did help the party out in their escape from the island (but admittedly tricked them into breaking his curse so he could run off and kill his executioner).
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According to the Bestiary you undead can change their alignments just as easily as a humanoid can.
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According to the Bestiary you undead can change their alignments just as easily as a humanoid can.
I can't find this statement. Could you link to it?
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Undeath is an unnatural state of the soul that gradually degrades the psyche and integrity of the spirit. Any undead that isn't evil will eventually become evil with time.
This is not accurate to Golarion. Undead are mostly Evil, but it's due to the nature of being undead, and the impulses that come with that, not the degradation of the spirit.
Heck, Blood of the Night explicitly notes that older vampires are much more likely to be Neutral than younger ones, as they've gotten some self control and realized it's often a better pragmatic choice to not be an a%%!+@*.
Speaking of which, that reminds me of another official non-Evil undead. There's a LN Vampire in Kaer Maga. He's a pretty chill guy, actually. Subsisting entirely on the blood of his harem (who are well compensated and allowed to leave whenever they like), and generally only kills people if they try to blackmail him by threatening to reveal him as a vampire.
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I can't find this statement. Could you link to it?
The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters—they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.
I can't find this statement. Could you link to it?The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters—they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.
That does not equate to "According to the Bestiary you undead can change their alignments just as easily as a humanoid can.
Especially since humans are not naturally predisposed to be evil monsters.
What that quote means is that whatever alignment in that book is the norm, but if you need to change the normal alignment for story reasons don't let the book alignment hold you back. In other words, it is another way to say "use rule 0 when needed to enhance the story".
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What that quote means is that whatever alignment in that book is the norm, but if you need to change the normal alignment for story reasons don't let the book alignment hold you back. In other words, it is another way to say "use rule 0 when needed to enhance the story".
If that was all it meant to say, then it wouldn't call out unintelligent enemies and planar monsters - but instead, it mentions them (and *only* them, not undead) as "*relatively* unchangeable" in their alignment.
At the very least, this means that a Lawful Good vampire is more likely than a Chaotic Good succubus. And we already had the later in an adventure path.
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Humans are as naturally predisposed towards evil as they are towards good or neutral. In this setting and in the real world methinks.
Laws hold people in check as much as moral compass and empathetic reactions. I'm,pretty sure that's why violent fantasy settings are usually run in relatively lawless environments. Golarion is effectively the epitome of the Wild West with swords. Everyone seems to have one, and using one to kill someone isn't a problem as long as it's justified. What constitutes "justified" varies from place to place.
As an example of human nature, now days in countries like America and Australia (where I'm from) watching someone get hanged to death for a crime is considered abhorrent and potentially damaging to the psyche.
Go back 100 years or so and watching the local hangings was the afternoons entertainment.
As for the undead, I believe the Carrion Crown AP explores this very thing in two of their modules. The Haunting of Harrowstone (1st installment) has plenty of non evil undead. Then the vampire installment has a whole host of non evil undead to work with. (At least in the traditional sense of evil).
Golarion has some things that are more shades of Gray than black and white, and undead happen to,be one of those things.
I can't find this statement. Could you link to it?The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters—they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.
That's a general statement, and like almost ALL general statements, there ARE exceptions. Undead are generally one of them for this one. As are creatures that are of an alignment subtype.
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OH boy, this thread again.
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That's a general statement, and like almost ALL general statements, there ARE exceptions. Undead are generally one of them for this one. As are creatures that are of an alignment subtype.
Except it lists it's exceptions..... It's a general statement that then immediately says the exceptions. Undead is not one of the exceptions. If you want to houserule it to affecting undead at your table that is fine, but RPG-line undead fall under the general rule (Note: Golarion has campaign-setting text that overrules this if you are playing in Golarion).
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Two categories are listed as "relatively unchangeable."
This does not mean all other categories are equally changeable. Aboleth and Hobgoblins both default to LE, but I'm pretty sure Hobgoblins are more like to try out other alignments.
According to the Bestiary you undead can change their alignments just as easily as a humanoid can.
Yes, and that is why they are all chaotic good rangers with two scimitars.
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One of the things to remember about undead are their intristic link to the negative energy plane which animates their bodies. This link to a hostile, ravenous energy which is the antethisis of all life is a powerful corrupting agent which comes to color the mindset of those afflicted with undeath anx is responsible for the unnatural hunger of diet dependant undead. So even if an undead didn't start evil, this influence which breaks down the pshyche of an individual until it is little more than a ravenous sub-human monstrosity can degrade most of the strongest souls (some notable souls being an exception rather than a rule).
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OH boy, this thread again.
And it will be this thread again, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, ad infinitum. :)
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Given how there is a goddess of redemption, in any game that I DM it will be established that any and all races, monsters, and outsiders could potentially be redeemed with a handful of examples or communities of such sprinkled in the campaign.
Maybe with this, the consideration that they may suffer from discrimination because of what they are not who they are.
For example one may have a vampire who minds his own business, pays his taxes, gives to the community, and treats others with respect but then a mob is formed by some stubborn inquisitor who won't see him as anything but an "abomination".
It will be up to the party to decide who they side with.
I would say that mindless undead are neither good nor evil. A zombie or skeleton for example is just a construct, like a golem or homunculus. Their raw materials just happen to be human corpses. They are made to follow orders, and thus have no free will of their own. As such, they're neither good nor evil. Now, as far as intelligent undead go, it's somewhat more complex. Intelligent undead are, in the majority, evil. This doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the rule however. A vampire, for example, may actually have a fair chance of being good, because vampires generally don't have a say in becoming vampires. Now, there are undead that are very unlikely to be good, such as liches, which intentionally choose to become undead through a decidedly evil ritual. There are also undead who, while intelligent, maintain no memory of their former lives, like wights or ghouls. To conclude, while mindless undead are neither good nor evil, intelligent undead can be either good or evil. Like living creatures. It is a fact that the vast majority of them are evil though.
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You haven't watched enough zombie movies.
What's weird to me is how mindless creatures can be evil. In the original Monstrous Manual skeletons were neutral (since they just did whatever the Wizard who made them tells them to, they were basically automata.)
Traditionally, in media and folklore zombies want to eat the brains or flesh of the living, an act that is probably evil. What, precisely, do skeletons want? It seems like they already have everything they need.
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Traditionally, in media and folklore zombies want to eat the brains or flesh of the living, an act that is probably evil. What, precisely, do skeletons want? It seems like they already have everything they need.You haven't watched enough zombie movies.
What's weird to me is how mindless creatures can be evil. In the original Monstrous Manual skeletons were neutral (since they just did whatever the Wizard who made them tells them to, they were basically automata.)
They've always got a bone to pick.
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In Blood of the Night it reads, "Most vampires are evil, but like any race that doesn't have the evil subtype, there is always a slim chance for redemption. Neutral vampires are rare, but not unheard of. Most commonly they are freed spawn, creatures now balking in horror at acts they perpetrated while dominated by their masters, with living memories fresh in their minds. Some vampires shift alignment to neutral over many hundreds of years as they tire of hunting and being hunted, moderating their evil by curtailing their behavior rather than making a philosophical choice. A good vampire is so rare as to be almost nonexistent. Its very nature draws it to feast on living intelligent creatures. The impossibly rare good vampire is trusted by no one and persecuted by all-mortal and vampire alike. Other vampires despise it out of jealousy or fear. No mortal will ever be convinced of its goodness, always sleeping behind locked chamber doors and with holy symbols in hand. Both within an adventuring party and out in the world, playing a good vampire character is fraught with trials. Vampires of all types may be lawful, neutral, or chaotic. As they are essentially immortal and can reinvent their identities over the centuries, a vampire is rarely bound to one alignment all its life."
That should help with one set of undead...
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It really does seem that if you're living for hundreds, or indeed thousands of years, and you're intelligent and able to examine yourself and your past deeds and change your mind that undead thinking "whoah, I was awful and this clearly wasn't working that well for me or anybody else" would be fairly common.
The Lich who is Evil and sits at the bottom of the dungeon and needs to be killed by the players is a convenient antagonist, but the Lich who has come to regret their past actions and wants to make up for it somehow is a much more interesting character. It just depends on whether or not you want the Lich to be an actual character.
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One of the things to remember about undead are their intristic link to the negative energy plane which animates their bodies. This link to a hostile, ravenous energy which is the antethisis of all life is a powerful corrupting agent which comes to color the mindset of those afflicted with undeath anx is responsible for the unnatural hunger of diet dependant undead. So even if an undead didn't start evil, this influence which breaks down the pshyche of an individual until it is little more than a ravenous sub-human monstrosity can degrade most of the strongest souls (some notable souls being an exception rather than a rule).Negative energy is not inherently aligned.
A valid argument. However, negative energy is still a consumer of positive energy, which is the basis of life and usually held as sacred by those who are of good alignment. With the negative energy seeking to consume these energies, or colouring the afflicted's minds with hatred and jealousy for those who have positive energy animating them, the undead descend morally into evil per the standards set by mortal societies.
This being said, as an undead continues to live, I see no reason why the afflicted's mind cannot find a way to cope, hence why it is more likely for longer "lived" undead to go to neutral.My theory does have the hole of "what about ghosts?" To which I have no reply. Fun topic, I hope we can derive something concrete from this discussion.
Technically there are undead that aren't intrinsically linked to the undead plane but they aren't called that term.
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In Blood of the Night it reads
I'm pretty sure there is a Golarion book that says all undead are evil except for ghosts and rare unique individuals who might become neutral and even more rarely good. Undead Revisted I think. But that's a golarion houserule like clerics needing to worship a deity.
Technically there are undead that aren't intrinsically linked to the undead plane but they aren't called that term.
Only creature's like that I've heard of are deathless and those don't exist in Pathfinder.