The Skeptical Gnome's page

Frankly, I'm not really sure this question is something that should be brought up here, but I'll get to that later. Firstly, as Daw more eloquently put it, Pathfinder, as a basic game, is tailored generally towards good, or at least goodish (The usual murder hobo techniques somewhat exempt for everyone but clerics and paladins) characters. There's plenty of additions and homebrews that tailor to characters of a more evil variety. But, as the generic game is, there isn't really shades of grey, like your character is. He traps souls in flesh golems and has them wander around, whilst also committing mass genocide of a species. The species in question may be goblins, sure, but genocide is still genocide, and these goblins in particular, from what you're saying, haven't really done anything evil, which makes it significantly worse. That means you're evil, basically. Even if the ends are good, ultimately, you're still committing evil acts, and paladins don't turn a blind eye to anything, even if the end result is a good thing. Sure the level of reaction may change depending on who they worship (Abadar would probably at least somewhat appreciate his intent to preserve civilzation, whereas a Pharasmin would probably blow a gasket), but ultimately it would end with some smiting of the evil. On a more general note, should this question be here? You said yourself that it's a thought experiment, which I'd imagine would thrive more on some sort of philosophical forum, not the forum of a game where there are literal rules and gods who dictate what is good and what is evil.

So by animal races, do you mean like ratmen or kistune, or like the actual animals, just being played as PCs? As far as a goat race goes, I think there's a satyr race kicking around somewhere that you could make use of, and you could possibly modify the strix race to more fit a dove, since they're basically bird people.

Guang wrote:

Styx is not a Pathfinder goblin. He's nothing like a Pathfinder goblin.

What's he like? I've never heard of him.

He's got human level intellect, can create clones of himself, is way taller then a pathfinder goblin, can craft various items of varying usefulness, such as poisons and (I believe) small alchemical grenades. He also has a number of other abilities outside of being able to create those weird, essentially mindless clones, such as, if memory serves, being able to turn invisible. He also lacks that nutty, pyrotechnic, kill everything mindset that pathfinder goblins have.

The Skeptical Gnome wrote:

I quite like this idea with regards to the obscuring mists, so I think I may borrow it rather shamelessly. One of the only things I couldn't seem to properly figure out about silent image (And some other similar spells) was rather they were mobile after being cast. For example, could I make a wall of stone "Rise" out of the ground, or would it simply pop into existence? If it's the latter, then I could probably still work with it, but the former would be far more useful. Any other ideas like the obscuring mist would be appreciated. I have a few ideas myself, but additional suggestions would naturally be very useful.

From the silent image spell description: "You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect." Of course check with your GM, but when I GM, I interpret that to mean you could make a swirling area of mist or have a wall of stone rise from the floor.

As far as other useful pre-existing spells to fake with illusions...

Wall of fire is great because you can shoot through it without disturbing the effect and yet it might make enemies think twice before charging you. Really, any of the wall spells are good to fake--being able to battlefield control at a low-level that way is quite nice.

As a GM I once had an illusionist fake summon a giant. You have to make it react, but it's a good way to summon really scary stuff, again to distract foes for a round or two.

If you can cast fly you can look totally metal by flying around on the back of a "dragon" :)

Ah, thank you very much for clearing that up. I had hoped that that would be the case. "Summoning" things will definitely seem more realistic if they move around a bit, I agree. With regards to the wall of fire, I had it in mind, though up until now I was worried that it would just be a motionless image rather then a relatively realistic wall of fire. Being able to ride around on a "Dragon" using fly would be quite badass, I agree. :)

10 gp of silver alchemical reagant adds +1 DC to spells that are disbelieved, if you want an edge and have money to burn. You're paying an expected 200 gp for every spell that it makes a difference on.

The Skeptical Gnome wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

The Cunning Caster or Conceal Spell feats can be incredibly useful for games that use the unwritten spell manifestations rules.

I could certainly see these coming in handy, but I might pass by virtue of the fact that a fair bit of the time I might pretend that I'm casting some other spell, when I'm casting an illusion instead, meaning that concealing the casting would be unnecessary. Thanks you for the suggestion though. I also wasn't aware of the phantasmal gem, though I think I'll definitely want to get my hands on one early on.

If they have Spellcraft they'll know you're casting an Illusion if they can see what you're doing. I think Ultimate Intrigue had a feat to look like another spell to Spellcraft but it was (a) bad and (b) limited to making it look like another spell of the same school, so still Illusion.

I wasn't aware of these reagents, though considering their relatively cheap price and the useful effect they provide, I might definitely have to acuire some of the silver. Also, while I agree that someone with spellcraft may recognize it, I would be doubtful that they would get a save every time I cast a spell to find out what I was casting. Besides, the number of enemies outside of spellcasters, whom are fairly rare, with spellcraft would be rather limited.

The Cunning Caster or Conceal Spell feats can be incredibly useful for games that use the unwritten spell manifestations rules.

I could certainly see these coming in handy, but I might pass by virtue of the fact that a fair bit of the time I might pretend that I'm casting some other spell, when I'm casting an illusion instead, meaning that concealing the casting would be unnecessary. Thanks you for the suggestion though. I also wasn't aware of the phantasmal gem, though I think I'll definitely want to get my hands on one early on.

As soon as you can, get shadow conjuration and shadow evocation. Those spells give you a fantastic level of versatility.

A fun trick at lower levels is to use silent image to mimic obscuring mist. Now you can see the monsters, but they can't see you--carry some form of ranged weapon and you'll be aiming at their flat-footed AC. Depending on how your GM adjudicates "interacted with", they likely won't get a save till they actually enter the mist. If you do this a couple times, your comrades will be wise to the trick which might grant a Will save bonus--and if they make their saves, the whole party benefits from concealment while suffering none of the penalties.

Study lots of stuff (i.e., get Knowledge skills). That will ensure that you won't be like me in this post. Also, knowing whether your enemies have resistances to mind-affecting effects and/or what kinds of things they like/hate helps fine-tune your illusions more appropriately.

I quite like this idea with regards to the obscuring mists, so I think I may borrow it rather shamelessly. One of the only things I couldn't seem to properly figure out about silent image (And some other similar spells) was rather they were mobile after being cast. For example, could I make a wall of stone "Rise" out of the ground, or would it simply pop into existence? If it's the latter, then I could probably still work with it, but the former would be far more useful. Any other ideas like the obscuring mist would be appreciated. I have a few ideas myself, but additional suggestions would naturally be very useful.

Three things about illusionists:

1) Talk with your GM about how illusions work, because he determines how enemies are likely to react to them, when they need to make saves, and that sort of thing. If the two of you aren't on the same wavelength, nothing else is going to matter. Read the rules carefully -- in particular, the distinction between figments and glamers. Don't try and make spells do things they can't; do be very aware of what they can do.

2) While you want your illusion DCs to be as high as possible (high casting stat, gnome, (Greater) Spell Focus (illusion), etc.), it's even more important to make your illusions so plausible that your targets don't even think to question them, but just react as if they were real. Know what's plausible in this area, what your enemies might be afraid of, and so on. Situational awareness is VERY important -- you want your enemies to react in a particular way, so you have to present something that will get them to react the way you want. Will they flee your illusions in fear, or charge them in rage, or do something else?

3) Be able to do some stuff that isn't illusions. If you conjure something real and the enemy bleeds from it, they're more likely to think the next thing is real. Some enemies can see through illusions (true seeing! or are very smart with high Spellcraft and will know when you're casting one. Illusions almost never kill the enemy directly: they baffle, delay, deceive, and mislead -- so you and your party will need some way to finally deal with foes.

Yeah, I was thinking about taking the true name feat once and maybe taking some summon spells, to make my other "Summons" seem more realistic. I plan on having a talk with my DM about the illusion rules, though we've hashed it out a couple times before during other campaigns with other spellcasting friends.

Eh, dead is dead. I'm not sure what the rules are as to whether any god would be annoyed about the consumption of a unicorn in Golarion (In Forgotten Realms I'd be worried about Mielikki, but I'm not aware of a Mielikki equivalent in Golarion), Erastil maybe? I'd imagine that a cleric or paladin might have a problem with eating a unicorn, but outside of those annoying alignment bound types most PCs are a bunch of murder hobos, so I doubt there'd be a problem. I'd take the unicorn's horn with me if I ever encountered a unicorn corpse anyways, if only in hopes that I'd get some bonus against diseases for it. I doubt the unicorn's gonna care, prancing about in Elysium as it assumedly is. I guess it could be sticking around as a spirit and haunt them, but as someone mentioned earlier I doubt they'd be so rare if that was commonly the case.

Greetings, illustrious sages of the forums! I come to you for advice on building an illusionist. I've started a new campaign with some buddies, and since we're a little lacking in the subtlety and arcane departments(The other party members are running a barbarian, a fighter, and a paladin, so no stealth for us) I decided to go with a spellcaster, particularly an illusionist, to support. Of course, I know nothing about playing an illusionist. I've run spellcasters before, and I think I've read enough about the different types of figments and the like to say I know their limitations, but I'm still having trouble deciding what class to go with. I'm partial towards wizards, since they're the more classic illusionists and I have more experience woth them, but the Veiled illusionist sorcerer is quite cool, so I don't want to count it out yet. I've also heard good things about illusionist bards, and the Wayang race's Shadow puppeteer racial class appeals to me, so I'm a little torn. So, I come to you guys. Which would you suggest? Also, any advice you can provide on the spells and items to take for whatever class you suggest would be appreciated. Thanks in advice for any advice provided! Also, assume that, unless I take the shadow puppeteer, I'd be running a gnome for my race.

Hmm, I'd say this is a fairly good two man team. It's hardly optimal of course, since the cleric won't be as good as a proper fighter no matter how you optimize him without compromising his healing abilities, but it's near impossible to create a perfect balance in a two person party anyways. One thing I could suggest is, instead of a wizard, trying to use a summoner. You'd lose some of your spellcasting abilities, but in exchange you'd gain a fairly powerful, long lasting minion that can help out a lot in either melee or any other role you select for it.

Don't think this would technically work, since I'm fairly certain create undead only creates the basic form of an undead and not variants, so you can only create a normal mohrg. Still a very interesting idea, albeit one that could end in your immediate and violent death if the original mohrg died, freeing all the others from your control.

I don't really know how that would work out, actually. It's kind of a point of debate in pathfinder whether gods are shaped by their worshippers, and wouldn't exist without them, or if the worshippers are shaped by their gods, and gods would exist whether worshipped or not. Is this god just some obscure god, who's purpose and domains are unknown and lost to time, or are they literally just god of nothing? Just some amalgam of meaningless divine power? Also, I'm fairly sure Agnostos Theos wasn't the term for an unknown god, it was just a precaution in case the Romans or Greeks (can't remember which) forgot to invoke a gods name in whatever ritual or event they were performing. Like a placeholder, or an honorable mention I guess?

Hmmm, let's see...worked in a bar before it burned down, after a freak accident involving a still lit pipe of a surprised patron and a bottle of alcohol he accidentally knocked from the wall. Actually managed a successful job stealing information for a nobleman, except the nobleman was assassinated before he was paid and he was forced to flee the city he was dwelling in as the noblemen and women he was hired to steal information from sent people to retrieve him and the information he acquired (A possible adventure hook later on). Worked for as a sheepherder, until the sheep he was herding died of an illness they contracted before he was hired. Worked as a cart driver until his cart hit a rut in the road, sending it tumbling over a small cliff face he was just passing by, sending the cart (And it's wealthy occupants) to their doom. Also worked as a ferryman, before they dammed up the river, forcing him to abandon the boat he had spent all the money from his previous failed jobs on.

Smashy. Whammy. Thumper. The Overcompensator. Wyrmbreaker. Orcbasher. Hammertime. The BFH, or BFT. Urist McHammer.

Thanks to everyone who suggested undead master, it looks like a very useful archetype for this type of build. Darkskulls also seem like a very useful magic item for a necromancer, as does a void stick, and as far as deific obediences go, I'm thinking either Orcus or Urgathoa seem like the best options. Working towards mainly control and debuff spells also seems like a good plan, since my undead can deal much of the damage.

• Where are your undead going to come from? Are you making them yourself? Make sure to get OK from your GM about the special skeletons and zombies; without those animation isn't nearly as interesting.

• Do you have a plan for hiding them when you have to go into town? Or a PR strategy if NPC farmers see you trooping around the countryside and alert the local paladins?
  
• Make sure you do as much prep work as possible before the game so that you can run your undead efficiently. Nobody wants to be waiting on you to resolve a dozen bloody skeletons if you don't have their stats handy. Playing a minion-heavy build means you need to do a lot of bookkeeping.
  

Apart from that, don't discount blasting a it, Boneshaker and Boneshatter are beautiful spells.

1) I do indeed plan to make them myself, mostly through the use of the lesser animate dead, and then normal animate dead spell. Yes, I do have GM approval to make template undead.

Thanks for suggesting boneshaker and boneshatter. I wasn't aware they existed, and they look quite fun.

So, I was looking to build a necromancer wizard, and need some advice. To clarify, when I say necromancer, I mean a wizard who controls undead in combat. I want avoid him just being debuff heavy, without any of the raise dead type spells. Some debuff spells are fine, but I want him to use undead often. That said, I'm namely looking for advice on:

-What feats to take (Assuming I'm taking command undead, since it seems like a given)

-Some good familiar choices (Factoring in both functionality and thematic appropriateness)

-General advice on how I should build my spell list (I plan to prioritize the necromancy school, but I'm going to have to use other types of magic)

-Good deific obedience options (I was considering demonic obediences, but they don't really seem built for PCs, so I decided to count them out)

Advice on other aspects of playing a wizard necromancer are also appreciated. Thanks in advance for any advice provided.

This sounds quite intriguing. Would make either a good one off or an interesting side quest in a larger overarching campaign. And a good chance for the PCs to get some excellent loot, should they decide to exterminate the leng ghoul and take his and The Worms stuff.

Though I am bias, since I homebrewed it, for those looking for an interesting and flavorful Improved Familiar might I recommend this?

Phoenix, Alizarin
A small bird with red and orange plumage perches nearby. It looks towards you with an intelligence that would surprise some, and seems to have an aura of majesty around it as though it is something to be respected.

Very interesting homebrew. Resurrection would be a very interesting ability for a familiar, as would it's other abilities.

there are a couple of good choices.

Personally I think you should pick something that works stylistically with your character design and theme, or something totally contrary for contrast that compliments your caster. Just going by the mechanics is a pea poor choice. It's a role playing game!

Characters that choose a familiar with an evil alignment are simply tempting the GM to do bad things.

It is true that the familiars thematic appropriateness should factor in to a persons choice in familiar, but this particular thread was created with the purpose of discussing your favourite familiar option from the improved familiar feat, and why you regard it as such.

Well, I've been looking at the familiars a bit, and I have to say, I like the imp and tidepool dragon.

So, I noticed that it's been a while since anyone made a discussion about this, and that a few new options have been added, and few removed. What do you guys think is the best familiar that can be gained from taking the Improved familiar feat? To clarify, I mean the best familiar in the most categories. Obviously different familiars are better at different things, like some are more effective at scouting, some in combat, some confer bonuses, etc. What I want is your opinion on which familiar is the most useful in the greatest number of ways. Conversely, I'm also interested in which improved familiar you consider the least useful, and why. Thanks for any input.

From memory griffon, phase spider and cobalopas (the magic bull thing?). It's been a long time since I've been allowed magical polymorphs.

There's more here though.

http://rpgbot.net/pathfinder/characters/polymorph.php

I believe he means the Catoblepas. Otherwise, I mostly agreee with these suggestions.

I would say that mindless undead are neither good nor evil. A zombie or skeleton for example is just a construct, like a golem or homunculus. Their raw materials just happen to be human corpses. They are made to follow orders, and thus have no free will of their own. As such, they're neither good nor evil. Now, as far as intelligent undead go, it's somewhat more complex. Intelligent undead are, in the majority, evil. This doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the rule however. A vampire, for example, may actually have a fair chance of being good, because vampires generally don't have a say in becoming vampires. Now, there are undead that are very unlikely to be good, such as liches, which intentionally choose to become undead through a decidedly evil ritual. There are also undead who, while intelligent, maintain no memory of their former lives, like wights or ghouls. To conclude, while mindless undead are neither good nor evil, intelligent undead can be either good or evil. Like living creatures. It is a fact that the vast majority of them are evil though.

Buy a tame, armoured flying mount I guess? Like a wyvern or griffon.

Well, did some research on Talmandor, so I'd say I can give a few ways to contact him. Firstly: Talmandor is considered the voice of the three principle deities in the region: Erastil, Iomedae, and Shelyn. As such, it seems like asking a priest to try and commune with him may be a good way to go about contacting him. Secondly, and the more expensive of the two options, acquire a plane shift to heaven (The plane) and visit him at his home, the somewhat arrogantly named Soaring Palace of Talmandor the Golden.

How have you guys forgotten to mention the salad-I mean slaads?!

Some urban pests like, well, rats, or maybe a swarm of crows reskinned as angry seagulls would probably seem like a safe bet. Another possibility is an attack by a force of bandits while the PCs are in town, maybe some goblins, or some kobolds. You know, the usual cannon fodder. Gypsy already mentioned this above, but maybe something knocks one or more PCs into the water, or they see someone being attacked by a a group of large fish or sharks in the water, leading to some underwater combat.

A group of owbs, possibly with an entourage of dark folk like dark stalkers or dark creepes might be interesting, though their base CRs are a bit low. Giving a couple of the owbs and dark folk some class levels would probably even the odds. An Umbral dragon (Don't know which age category is appropriate for level 8 PCs, but I'm sure one of them is sufficient) would also provide an interesting battle.

An umbral scion sorcerer might be cool. A number of interesting darkness effects to be had. Not sure how effective it'd be mechanically speaking, but it's a nice shadowy vibe to it. As far as races go, Fetchling seems like the best choice, though Wayangs are quite cool as well, and I'm pretty partial to Drow myself, though a low point buy campaign may not allow them.

Damn, TimDs kind of answered most of it. Guess I could give a few little scenarios that could take place in a large metropolis. Firstly, a classic: Escaped, conveniently massive level appropriate animal, or group of animals. Something absurd, like a dragon, would obviously be pretty unlikely, but a dire tiger or girallon or something like that escaping a merchants cage and going on a rampage might not be to unfeasible. Another classic could be a string of mysterious murders taking place in the city, either in the upper class or lower class of citizens. This one's good because it's both fairly long running and versatile. It could be any number of creatures, or it could be somehow tied to an overarching storyline in the campaign. Finally, a shop the PCs enter to buy things turns out to be a front for illegal operations, such as slave trade (Not to brushed up on the laws in Andoran or Augustana, but it's a safe bet), drug dealings (So many different types of drugs you can homebrew easily), or something of a more magical nature, like the components for evil rituals and the like. Again, there's many different options here, and while it could just end with that shop, it could also lead them into conflict with some underground organization operating in the city.

I'd check out areas abundant with corpses, such as cemeteries, mausoleums, or morgues, which are areas where a primarily necromantic cult of the patron of undeath would probably hang out. Checking it out at night, in a stealthy manner, would probably be wise as well. I wouldn't mention this to certain party members, if they're of the pesky "Good aligned" variety, like paladins or, eugh, clerics of good gods, like Sarenrae. That or mask the informaion gathering as some sort of crusade against the cult. You could also establish yourself as some sort of necromancer, or other type that works with the undead, and hope that they approach you. There's also the "Beat people up until they tell you what you want to know" approach, but beating up possible underlings of said cult likely wouldn't put you in their good graces.

Hmmm. From a mechanical perspective, I'd say demons, since they're not as intelligent as devils, but not as bat shit crazy as daemons, but from an rp perspective, good aligned outsiders would be best, so as not to piss off the paladin. Summoning something neutral, like a psychopomp or inevitable would probably be best. Just never, EVER summon a Qlippoth. Qlippoths are bad news.

I think this is an interesting concept. As far as ideas go, I suppose you could include the serpentmen, as either an enemy or an ally to the Xulgath, since they're said to have been in possession of a very similar empire to the troglodytes in the past. As far as other races go, you seem to have a pretty good handle on it, though aa far as gnomes go, you could have them mostly appear to mingle with the other tribes with no permanent settlement of their own, only for it to later be revealed that these mingleds are spies for the gnomes.

I honestly can't really think of much, outside of simulacrums (Already discussed) and some sort of homunculus (Already discussed). I guess you could have the BBEG make some sort of super homunculus, and rather than their blood making them its master, it marks the PCs as the targets the homunculus will then hunt relentlessly? Or make a few different homunculi (homunculusses? Whatever) with each marking a different PC as the target, to appear at different times throughout the campaign? They really ought to add more rules approved rituals and such to do with blood and other body parts. Would add a bunch of fun new ways to mess with the PCs.

I'd have to concur with Drahliana on this. Seeking out revenge in the form of pvp is bad form, but some eye for an eye vengeance may be in order. If they require assistance at one point in another encounter, don't provide it, and if they get angry with you about it, cite the lack of assistance they provided you.

I suppose he could just purchase or raise a dire boar? If I recall correctly you can raise an animal tame with a sufficiently high handle animal check. My worry for most options that aren't a part of a class would be that they'd get crushed at higher levels though.

Adventure paths are very large overarching campaigns, traveling across a swathe of Golarion and taking a party from 1st to upward of 15th level. There are 18 adventure paths to date, some examples of which are Rise of the Runelords, Kingmaker, and Legacy of fire. I don't know how adaptable these adventure paths are to a party of the size you're alluding to, but I assume any needed adjustments would simply apply to quantity of enemies and the levels of boss type opponents, as well as maybe resizing some of the encounter areas.

I'd imagine a shaman would be a good way to go, though some animal handling may be in order for him to be able to ride his to ride his boar. Scarred witch doctor's also a pretty interesting choice. Think they have to female, but that's an easy homebrew. Wouldn't be to hard to give him a few melee feats, and the savage orc bit's a matter of roleplay, as is the heading to the thickest fighting during battle. Don't know how effective a fighter he'd be, but it's certainly doable.

Thanks for all the help guys. Sorry, been a bit busy lately so it took me a while to respond. Discussion seemed to get a bit...derailed, but still plenty of good ideas. Shelyn seems like the way to go, though thanks to John Mechalas for a bunch of other very interesting options.

I agree with Drahliana on the class choice. Rangers are a very solid class, whatever the situation. As far as skills go, I'm not all to familiar with rangers, though I would suggest shying away from the woodsy stuff if the setting's a haunted carnival.

So I was planning on running a bard for a new campaign, and while I've not used them before, I decided to try out a deific obedience for the first time, since they seemed pretty interesting. However, I'm not to familiar with the deific obediences, so I'm not sure which would be a good choice for a bard. For reference, I've decided on a halfling bard, who's somewhat specialized for range with a sling-staff (Having a good backup to spells and BPs seemed like a good idea, seeing as how few spell slots bards get). Any help would be appreciated.

I think the third tier Evangelist ability from Gozreh's deific obedience summons a elemental you can communicate with telepathically once per day, for a limited time. It's a standard action to.

I dunno, lots of dire badgers? Like, oodles of dire badgers? Or hundreds of slaves to tunnel for them.

Hm. Can't say for spells, but as far as magical items go a cloak of the manta ray or two might be quite useful.

You could place very small images of yourself in hidden observation areas if you want to keep an eye on a place. Could be very useful in a home or fortress you own if you come under attack. Does the spell give a range to how far from the image of you can be and still look through it? Would your vision scale to the portrait's size I wonder...?

Hmmmm. As far as class availability goes, I would limit arcane or divine casters, as others said. I suppose clerics could draw on the primal forces of nature, but that'd be fairly sketchy. Paladins are out as well, should you oust divine magic. Rangers and barbarians are obviously an in, though I'd change the ranger to something like hunter. Fighters would be fair, and I could conceivably see monks being about, though you'd have to change up their name and general flavour. As far as the races themselves go, I can think of a few obvious parallels. Dwarves would be similar to Neanderthals, in that they are possessed of considerable physical strength, but even more technologically lacking then the other races. Elves would maintain their general ties to nature, being more advanced then the dwarves, albeit in a more natural way. Gnomes (If you have them) would be sort of pseudo steampunk, with things like millstones or wheels. They would be the most advanced of the tribes. Finally, humans would be somewhat middling, coexisting to some degree with nature while also fearing its power. I'm rather curious-What sort of creatures will inhabit this work of yours? If you're going for a prehistoric vibe, then I'd count out obviously magical creatures. I'd advise creating pseudo magical creatures. Stuff like panthers, with a sort of naturally reflective coat that makes it hard to see, or appear in different places. (A displaced beast). You could also go for a few very close tribes to the Troglodytes who are more loyal, like goblinoids or the less magical giant kin, as a means of adding some variety to combat with the Troglodytes.

No problem

If it's a thorp we're talking about, i.e. a small hamlet, then I'd say 8-15 houses. The size largely depends on the surrounding area. If it's a fair distance from any sort of larger settlement like a town or city, then I'd say closer to 25-35, with a small military force and leader (Not to familiar with Anglo-Saxon leadership castes, so I'd say an elder or small council of influential citizens.). If it's close to a settlement with a fairly large military force however and doesn't require that or it's own governing body, then 8-15 is about right.