Stat the Gods!!!

[Tacticslion]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

As been said before... locking the gods into fixed stats makes an official rule which is suitable for some campaigns, and highly unsustainable for others.

Paizo can do all you expect them to do by maintaining a narrative consistency that's not dependent on stats. Iomedae backing a succesful campaign in the Worldwound and a disastrously losing one in Cheliax is entirely within Paizo's narrative consistency which may well determine that her interference in the Worldwound may well come at a price to interests she backs elsewhere... especially a nation that Asmodeus has personal interests in.

So making Iomedae a 35th level Paladin sounds impressive, but not so much so for the campaign of 50th level godslayers. (or 50th for the 75th level group) For them, an ambitious GM can (and should) create an Iomedae that's worthy of their mettle. He'll have to do using tools well outside of the scope of anything Paizo has created... but they are out there.

If you're going that way, you have to acknowledge that what you're doing IS going to be highly idiosyncratic and give up the notion that you need to be compliant with Paizo's story model, and that's not nearly the tragedy you would imply. It just means you're making your own.

Because if you are going to have super mega level campaigns, then you are, or should be the kind of creator who's learned to extrapolate beyond material handed to them.

???

Me: "I like this sort of thing. I kind of wish Paizo would do this, but they won't, and that's okay because it works for people who aren't me. So it's a good thing for home brew. Kinda wish people didn't keep telling others it was a bad idea, though."

You: "Why do this? Paizo never will and it'll come down to table variation. It's a bad idea!"

>:I

I'm reasonably certain that, at this point, you're not reading my posts and just assuming what's on them is some sort of general diatribe about how everyone should be forced to have god stats.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Tacticslion wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

As been said before... locking the gods into fixed stats makes an official rule which is suitable for some campaigns, and highly unsustainable for others.

Paizo can do all you expect them to do by maintaining a narrative consistency that's not dependent on stats. Iomedae backing a succesful campaign in the Worldwound and a disastrously losing one in Cheliax is entirely within Paizo's narrative consistency which may well determine that her interference in the Worldwound may well come at a price to interests she backs elsewhere... especially a nation that Asmodeus has personal interests in.

So making Iomedae a 35th level Paladin sounds impressive, but not so much so for the campaign of 50th level godslayers. (or 50th for the 75th level group) For them, an ambitious GM can (and should) create an Iomedae that's worthy of their mettle. He'll have to do using tools well outside of the scope of anything Paizo has created... but they are out there.

If you're going that way, you have to acknowledge that what you're doing IS going to be highly idiosyncratic and give up the notion that you need to be compliant with Paizo's story model, and that's not nearly the tragedy you would imply. It just means you're making your own.

Because if you are going to have super mega level campaigns, then you are, or should be the kind of creator who's learned to extrapolate beyond material handed to them.

???

Me: "I like this sort of thing. I kind of wish Paizo would do this, but they won't, and that's okay because it works for people who aren't me. So it's a good thing for home brew. Kinda wish people didn't keep telling others it was a bad idea, though."

You: "Why do this? Paizo never will and it'll come down to table variation. It's a bad idea!"

>:I

I'm reasonably certain that, at this point, you're not reading my posts and just assuming what's on them is some sort of general diatribe about how everyone should be forced to have god stats.

I'm just challenging the notion that you need stats for narrative purposes. that they are a pre-requisite for internal consistency.

[Tacticslion]

The Sideromancer wrote:

Why do this? because fiddling with rulesets is fun!

There's also this. This is also a thing. :)

[Tacticslion]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Tacticslion wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

As been said before... locking the gods into fixed stats makes an official rule which is suitable for some campaigns, and highly unsustainable for others.

Paizo can do all you expect them to do by maintaining a narrative consistency that's not dependent on stats. Iomedae backing a succesful campaign in the Worldwound and a disastrously losing one in Cheliax is entirely within Paizo's narrative consistency which may well determine that her interference in the Worldwound may well come at a price to interests she backs elsewhere... especially a nation that Asmodeus has personal interests in.

So making Iomedae a 35th level Paladin sounds impressive, but not so much so for the campaign of 50th level godslayers. (or 50th for the 75th level group) For them, an ambitious GM can (and should) create an Iomedae that's worthy of their mettle. He'll have to do using tools well outside of the scope of anything Paizo has created... but they are out there.

If you're going that way, you have to acknowledge that what you're doing IS going to be highly idiosyncratic and give up the notion that you need to be compliant with Paizo's story model, and that's not nearly the tragedy you would imply. It just means you're making your own.

Because if you are going to have super mega level campaigns, then you are, or should be the kind of creator who's learned to extrapolate beyond material handed to them.

???

Me: "I like this sort of thing. I kind of wish Paizo would do this, but they won't, and that's okay because it works for people who aren't me. So it's a good thing for home brew. Kinda wish people didn't keep telling others it was a bad idea, though."

You: "Why do this? Paizo never will and it'll come down to table variation. It's a bad idea!"

>:I

I'm reasonably certain that, at this point, you're not reading my posts and just assuming what's on them is some sort of general diatribe about how everyone should be forced to have god

...

It's a notion worth challenging, however, in an RPG for him, exclusively dedicated to homebrew stuff, in a thread specifically requesting help for starting out gods, where someone said they wanted to do that for their own purposes for their game, end of have requested specific assistance in doing so instead of being assisting it comes across as incredibly aggressive and condescending. It isn't a challenge that needs to be made in this thread. In fact it's even a point that I granted in an earlier post of mine. Yeah. You don't need stats. Then again, you don't need any stats at all. It's a game of make-believe.

Look: I'll say it again: it's a worthwhile notion to challenge in certain circumstances. But this is not the time and place to challenge it. A guy came asking for help to do thing "A". Telling him "don't do thing a." Isn't going to help him accomplish his goal. It's just dismissive.

[Alzrius]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I'm just challenging the notion that you need stats for narrative purposes. that they are a pre-requisite for internal consistency.

I don't believe that sentiment is an accurate representation of the notion in question. Unless I missed something, nobody is saying that you need stats for narrative purposes, full stop (or at least, aren't saying that everyone, rather than themselves, needs such things). Rather, some people are saying that, for them, such materials are very helpful in terms of clearly outlining the narrative possibilities, as well as stimulating creativity regarding what those possibilities can mean for the wider game world.

You're arguing against an absolute principle that nobody is putting forth.

[GM Rednal]

For what it's worth, Dicefreaks gave stats to the Avatar of Asmodeus in the last volume of their Gates of Hell series. He's got a Divine Rank of 21 in Hell, 1,610 HP, a basic AC of 97 (even a touch AC of 63), and a bunch of Salient Divine Abilities that basically add up to "lol, you lose". Plus a horrific artifact. That's probably a good place to start if you really want to use stats... and it's worth keeping in mind that this is STILL less powerful than his true form. XD

[kyrt-ryder]

'The place to start' depends entirely on the context you apply to the game.

Personally I have no interest in dealing with anything more than level 20, but considering a level 20 Wizard can replicate the majority of the feats of the Judeo-Christian God in the Bible....

[Alzrius]

GM Rednal wrote:

For what it's worth, Dicefreaks gave stats to the Avatar of Asmodeus in the last volume of their Gates of Hell series. He's got a Divine Rank of 21 in Hell, 1,610 HP, a basic AC of 97 (even a touch AC of 63), and a bunch of Salient Divine Abilities that basically add up to "lol, you lose". Plus a horrific artifact. That's probably a good place to start if you really want to use stats... and it's worth keeping in mind that this is STILL less powerful than his true form. XD

That was based on the depiction of Asmodeus from the 2E Guide to Hell, which suggested that he's one of the primordial beings that predate the formation of the planes, and helped give them their current arrangement and structure. Pathfinder's Asmodeus is still an ancient deity, but doesn't have quite the same pedigree.

[NenkotaMoon]

Alzrius wrote:

GM Rednal wrote:

For what it's worth, Dicefreaks gave stats to the Avatar of Asmodeus in the last volume of their Gates of Hell series. He's got a Divine Rank of 21 in Hell, 1,610 HP, a basic AC of 97 (even a touch AC of 63), and a bunch of Salient Divine Abilities that basically add up to "lol, you lose". Plus a horrific artifact. That's probably a good place to start if you really want to use stats... and it's worth keeping in mind that this is STILL less powerful than his true form. XD

That was based on the depiction of Asmodeus from the 2E Guide to Hell, which suggested that he's one of the primordial beings that predate the formation of the planes, and helped give them their current arrangement and structure. Pathfinder's Asmodeus is still an ancient deity, but doesn't have quite the same pedigree.

This also Pathfinder. it's is an entirely different main setting than that of what 2E had.

[RedDingo]

All gods receive the ability Causal Resonance. Which allows them to negate any effects or damage caused by mortals and choose the result of any dice roll they have to make unless it involves other beings with this ability.

Take that Lord British.

[johnlocke90]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

That said, I disagree that gods being affected by issues of requiring beliefs puts them at the "bottom" of the process; being affected by something doesn't mean that you're subordinate to that thing. That's particularly the case when the issue involved is one that's a gradual process, one that requires a large number of people to actuate, and isn't something that can be immediately done or undone.

The issue of a god's power being influenced by current issues of how widespread their faith is is likely to be an issue that spans years, if not decades or centuries (outside of massive disasters affecting the near-total base of their worship, at which point the deity is likely to become personally involved, since their own life is effectively on the line). When compared to the fact that a deity is an exceptionally powerful entity that can take quick, decisive action that will have an immediate impact on others, then it's hard to rate such issues of gradual erosion as being of greater importance when ranking the entities of power that ultimately give shape to a campaign world.

Now, those can be aspects of a world's historical context, but in terms of designing who/what is a major player on the...

Again it's how you write things. In Fritz Leiber's setting of Nehwon, the relative power of Gods is an intensely volatile affair, with major upsets happening fairly often. the faith that's at the glorious temple at the top of the street, may be reduced to being the hovel at the lower end in the course of a single story. (Now of course I'm talking about the Gods IN Lankhmar.. the ones that you'd actually have clerics for, as opposed to the Gods OF Lankhmar... those mummified figures whose only worship is an occasional basket of fruit tossed in the door and are only seen when the city itself is under mortal threat... they have no worshippers to speak of.)

That would be tough to translate narratively to Pathfinder as many gods are worshipped on multiple planets. So even if you wipe out all the Lamashtu worshippers on Golarion, she still has worshippers on a million other planets and you haven't hurt her power much.

At that point actually trying to diminish a god involves a ton of interplanetary travel that the game isn't well suited for.

[Et cetera et cetera]

Rovagug’s time is coming…

Here’s some new rules I made for deities. Feel free to use these in your own game!

First up is two new subtypes; deity and demigod. Some of the abilities and spells I plan on adding will make use of these subtypes.

Demigods are creatures between CR 26 and CR 30 that grant four domains and four subdomains. Demigods often have the ability to cast 10th level spells. Note that not all creatures in the CR 26 - CR 30 range are demigods. Demigods includes demon lords, archdevils, great old ones, empyreal lords, and horsemen of the apocalypse.

Creatures under the current rules that have that you can add the demigod subtype to include:
Demon Lords
Dagon
Kostchtschie
Pazuzu
Empyreal Lords
Cernunnos
Korada
Vildeis
Great Old Ones
Bokrug
Cthulhu
Hastur

Deities are creature between CR 31 and CR 40 that grant five domains and five subdomains. Deities often have the ability to cast 10th level spells. Deities include the core 20 deities and the outer gods.

Second I came up with some 10th level spells that deities can cast. Note that this is a bit different than third edition epic level spells.

10th Level Spells can only be cast by the most powerful of entities. A creature must have the demigod or deity subtype in order to cast 10th level spells. Certain artifacts can be used by non divine entities to cast 10th level spells.

Here's an example spell.

Divine Resurrection

School conjuration (healing); Level demigod/deity 10
Casting Time 1 minute
Components V, S, M (diamond worth 50,000 gp), DF
Range touch
Target dead creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none, see text; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

You restore life to a deceased creature. You can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 1,000 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased's time and place of birth or death is the most common method). In addition, the subject's soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject's soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no negative levels (or Constitution points) and all of the prepared spells possessed by the creature when it died.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or any effect that states “Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore the character back to life.” It can revive someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals, outsiders, constructs and undead creatures.

Even divine resurrection can't restore to life a creature who has died of old age. (Only Pharasma can do that.)

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

johnlocke90 wrote:

That would be tough to translate narratively to Pathfinder as many gods are worshipped on multiple planets.

Perhaps, but we only really focus on one planet, so we don't really have to worry about all of the others.

Quite frankly, I think Paizo painted itself into a corner by making Golarion's dieties be reflected on a cosmic stage. It would have been better to have each world have it's own collection of dieties than transplant Golarion's on every single one.

[NenkotaMoon]

Once again, how do you tell whom is stronger?

[Tacticslion]

This is literally the easiest question in the game to answer.

By who can lift more heavy rocks (with proper multipliers-or-dividers for comparing multipeds v. bipeds, naturally).

C'mon, I've already covered this!

;D

[NenkotaMoon]

Is it?

No.

[MannyGoblin]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

The Basic/Expert/etc. D&D rules set (that started before AD&D, but then coexisted with it for a while) had published rules for going all the way to level 36 and fighting at least lower level deities.

And then, going outside the D&D lineage, we have Exalted, where you normally START being able to fight deities . . . .

Plus there were the Immortals rules where you could become a demi god and there were a number of models that were done. Best one had art by Jim Holloway 'The Best of Intentions' where the PCs were Junior Immortals trying to find out who was killing candidates for Immortality

[johnlocke90]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

johnlocke90 wrote:

That would be tough to translate narratively to Pathfinder as many gods are worshipped on multiple planets.

Perhaps, but we only really focus on one planet, so we don't really have to worry about all of the others.

Quite frankly, I think Paizo painted itself into a corner by making Golarion's dieties be reflected on a cosmic stage. It would have been better to have each world have it's own collection of dieties than transplant Golarion's on every single one.

The devs did it because it allows the deities to be a lot less involved in the world.

If the deities only had Golarion then it would beg the question "why isn't every Golarion god involved in every potential world ending disaster? Their ass is on the line too.". As is, the gods can interfere and help out, but they have lots of other planets to look after too.

For instance, Wrath of the Righteous would be very different if Iomedae and Torag were fighting in the battles.

[Tacticslion]

That's pretty cool, Et cetera et cetera, but, as a note,

Et cetera et cetera wrote:

Even divine resurrection can't restore to life a creature who has died of old age. (Only Pharasma can do that.)

... isn't true, at least not exactly (you know, strictly speaking)...

>.>

(This ability is questionable, as it's unclear if a corpse is a creature that can be targeted or a unique kind of object. Though all of those are druid spells, note the level of the very first link. Soooo...)

Otherwise, really cool! Carry on! :D

[Vidmaster7]

I like the internal consistency argument its close to converting me to your side. The next thing would be would it be sell able to a large audience? Maybe if demi-gods were in there to and rules for ascension and partial divine power. we could call it ultimate divinity. hmm now i'm closer to being sold on it. deific spells that temporary boost followers to super levels or ruin kingdoms or reshape the world. ok now I think I would buy it. not just stated deities but how they can directly effect things and make for excellent story elements without the game having to be level 36.

[Lady-J]

gods should have a min of 400 in each ability score and have a minimum of 1000 hit die as their power is immense possibly with 1.5 bab progression and a d20 hit die

[My Self]

Lady-J wrote:

gods should have a min of 400 in each ability score and have a minimum of 1000 hit die as their power is immense possibly with 1.5 bab progression and a d20 hit die

There are probably simpler ways that make more sense in system terms to do it than that.

Minimum of 400 in a stat means you get at least +195 to anything important, including health. This works out to over +2.3 to a stat per level. Dragon Disciple is a (supposedly HD=CR) PRC that provides +2 every other level. d20 HD (10.5/level, or 3d6 HD) and 1.5 BAB will probably push you above +1 CR/level on its own, even if you have poor saves (which is not a given). Guessing really, really roughly, the stat boosts, huge HD, and BAB boosts probably come out to +2 CR/HD. So really, we're looking at CR 2000+ monstrosities, disregarding any special abilities they might possess.

Mathfinder kinda breaks down at ridiculously high numbers. When differences in numbers become more than +20, weird stuff starts to happen.

When comparing it to Paizo PF lore, you've got your Demon Queen Lamashtu (Probably CR 30+, but likely not unassailably higher) gather a demon army to kill Curchanus before taking his power. If Lamashtu had been attacking a CR 2000+ creature with more than 205500 HP and 205 AC, she would need a practically infinite amount of demons to do a scratch. More so if he had DR, Fast Healing, the Life Oracle's Safe Cures, a way to cast Sanctuary, Wind Wall, or practically any defensive spell or defensive class ability. Demons would only be landing hits on double-natural 20s, AOE damage, and Magic Missile-style attacks. Likely even less, since I'd find it highly unlikely that Curchanus would get to CR 2000 without some level of SR.

Not to say that you can't have a CR 2000 PF deity. However, it would be very difficult to reconcile them with the existing lore's mechanics and would be difficult to hold battles that don't end in a stomp in one direction or the other.

[Lady-J]

My Self wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

gods should have a min of 400 in each ability score and have a minimum of 1000 hit die as their power is immense possibly with 1.5 bab progression and a d20 hit die

There are probably simpler ways that make more sense in system terms to do it than that.

Minimum of 400 in a stat means you get at least +195 to anything important, including health. This works out to over +2.3 to a stat per level. Dragon Disciple is a (supposedly HD=CR) PRC that provides +2 every other level. d20 HD (10.5/level, or 3d6 HD) and 1.5 BAB will probably push you above +1 CR/level on its own, even if you have poor saves (which is not a given). Guessing really, really roughly, the stat boosts, huge HD, and BAB boosts probably come out to +2 CR/HD. So really, we're looking at CR 2000+ monstrosities, disregarding any special abilities they might possess.

Mathfinder kinda breaks down at ridiculously high numbers. When differences in numbers become more than +20, weird stuff starts to happen.

well they are GODS they are suposta be ridiculously over powered they should be in the thousands of cr level they could probably wipe a party of pc's off the face of the planet by just thinking about it with enough intent to kill

[Vidmaster7]

^those gods she has imagined are an example of ones that shouldn't be stated up^

[My Self]

Lady-J wrote:

My Self wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

gods should have a min of 400 in each ability score and have a minimum of 1000 hit die as their power is immense possibly with 1.5 bab progression and a d20 hit die

There are probably simpler ways that make more sense in system terms to do it than that.

Minimum of 400 in a stat means you get at least +195 to anything important, including health. This works out to over +2.3 to a stat per level. Dragon Disciple is a (supposedly HD=CR) PRC that provides +2 every other level. d20 HD (10.5/level, or 3d6 HD) and 1.5 BAB will probably push you above +1 CR/level on its own, even if you have poor saves (which is not a given). Guessing really, really roughly, the stat boosts, huge HD, and BAB boosts probably come out to +2 CR/HD. So really, we're looking at CR 2000+ monstrosities, disregarding any special abilities they might possess.

Mathfinder kinda breaks down at ridiculously high numbers. When differences in numbers become more than +20, weird stuff starts to happen.

well they are GODS they are suposta be ridiculously over powered they should be in the thousands of cr level they could probably wipe a party of pc's off the face of the planet by just thinking about it with enough intent to kill

But there are better ways to stat them up so they can wipe out a party of PCs, without using a bazillion HD. And also note that Pathfinder deities are generally much more subtle than "wipe out all the people I don't like just by looking at them". Just give them special abilities that lets them nuke a place once a week, or inspire vast amounts of followers. Stats don't make the character, special abilities do. Also, DR, regeneration, or self-resurrection against mortal methods of killing would be helpful.

Wrath of God:

Wrath of God

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V

EFFECT
Range 1 mile
Area nonfollower creatures in a 1 mile-radius spread centered on you
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will partial; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION
HD _____________________ Effect
Greater than caster level __ 1d6 damage/level
Equal to caster level ______ 1d6 damage/level
Up to caster level -1 ______ Blinded, 1d6 damage/level
Up to caster level -5 ______ Paralyzed, Blinded, 1d6 damage/level
Up to caster level -10 _____ Killed, Paralyzed, Blinded, 1d6 damage/level
Any non-follower creature within the area of a Wrath of God spell suffers the following ill effects.

The effects are cumulative and concurrent. A successful Will save reduces or eliminates some of these effects. Creatures affected by multiple effects make only one save and apply the result to all the effects.

Damage: The creature takes 1d6 divine damage/level. Save reduces this damage by half.

Blinded: The creature is blinded for 2d4 rounds. Save reduces the blinded effect to 1d4 rounds.

Paralyzed: The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes. Save reduces the paralyze effect to 1 round.

Killed: Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed. Creatures that die this way cannot be resurrected without direct deific intervention. There is no save.

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, the radius expands to a 10-mile radius.

Creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by Wrath of God.

SPECIAL
This ability may be used by deities only once a (week? month? year?). This is meant to be a good spell for purging the riffraff (low-level enemies, such as commoners, dretches, town guards, etc.) but a poor spell for killing divine or close-to-divine enemies (Demon Lords, Empyreal Lords, Cthulhu) who are only a few HD lower than you.

Depending on the portfolio of the deity, the secondary effects may change.

Permanent confusion may be substituted for paralysis. Confusion is reduced to 1d10 minutes by a successful save.

Undeath may be substituted for killed. Creatures that are killed by this effect or that die in the radius in the next 10 minutes are resurrected as skeletons or zombies under a Desecrate effect. You may create any number of undead this way, but the number you can control is limited as per Animate Dead. Uncontrolled undead attack enemy survivors of Wrath of God and other enemies outside its radius, but not you or your followers. Intelligent undead are compelled to attack enemies for 1d10 minutes as if by Control Undead, but with no save to negate.

Permanent petrification may be substituted for killed. Creatures are turned to salt, trees, gold, or some other material befitting your portfolio. Creatures cannot be un-petrified or resurrected without direct deific intervention.

[UnArcaneElection]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

As been said before... locking the gods into fixed stats makes an official rule which is suitable for some campaigns, and highly unsustainable for others.

{. . .}
So making Iomedae a 35th level Paladin sounds impressive, but not so much so for the campaign of 50th level godslayers. (or 50th for the 75th level group) For them, an ambitious GM can (and should) create an Iomedae that's worthy of their mettle. He'll have to do using tools well outside of the scope of anything Paizo has created... but they are out there.
{. . .}

This is why I was thinking of a Divine Rank scale with non-linear interactions. Something that is Divine Rank 3 can (with great difficulty) be killed by getting Zerged by things of Divine Rank 2, and 2omething that is Divine Rank 2 can (with great difficulty) be killed by getting Zerged by things of Divine Rank 1, but no amount of Zerg strategy will suffice for things of Divine Rank 1 to beat things of Divine Rank 3 if they are not part of an attack by things of Divine Rank 2, even if you go above and beyond the call of duty in squaring the numbers of things required.

[PathlessBeth]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

As been said before... locking the gods into fixed stats makes an official rule which is suitable for some campaigns, and highly unsustainable for others.

Which is why it is being done in the homebrew forum, so that people who want it can use it, and people like you can ignore it. Or, you can just continue spamming the thread with complaints about how people are having BADWRONGFUN.

To the OP: Anywho, I honestly don't know enough about the lore of the characters you are statting to really help. I can, however, point out a previous thread where someone statted the Golarion gods, which might give you some ideas. Keep going though, OP: your work is very enjoyable for me to read.

[quibblemuch]

I tried statting Groetus and all I got was a #DIV/0! error...

[Sauce987654321]

137ben wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

As been said before... locking the gods into fixed stats makes an official rule which is suitable for some campaigns, and highly unsustainable for others.

Which is why it is being done in the homebrew forum, so that people who want it can use it, and people like you can ignore it. Or, you can just continue spamming the thread with complaints about how people are having BADWRONGFUN.

To the OP: Anywho, I honestly don't know enough about the lore of the characters you are statting to really help. I can, however, point out a previous thread where someone statted the Golarion gods, which might give you some ideas. Keep going though, OP: your work is very enjoyable for me to read.

I can't say I'm too much of a fan of those statblocks. They mostly look similar to existing creatures already except they have bigger numbers with similar divine abilities from 3.5. Inevitably they are going to have larger numbers, but I would expect to see many flashy abilities on top of those big numbers.

[Odraude]

Pretty much all mythological gods save for Yahweh are not infallible and are not omniscient or omnipotent. Many also have weaknesses that can be played into by mortals and demigods. So I imagine, keep a lot of the god's abilities and stats abstract and give them weaknesses and flaws that the players can exploit to defeat the gods.

I mean hell, we had Sisyphus bind Thanatos with his own chains and Heracles tricked Atlas to take back the Earth. So it's definitely feasable. With stats for Gods, you just have to be more abstract with stats. Less is more as they say.

[Klorox]

Heck, even YHWH isn't omniscient, there are several proofs of that in OT, and its Supreme status so far above all other gods may be an artefact of the Jewish cult... El was initially a Semitic god among others, even if its status as Ssky god made it really powerful.

[Odraude]

Klorox wrote:

Heck, even YHWH isn't omniscient, there are several proofs of that in OT, and its Supreme status so far above all other gods may be an artefact of the Jewish cult... El was initially a Semitic god among others, even if its status as Ssky god made it really powerful.

While certainly true, I mostly wanted to keep god with a "G" (or Y or A as the case may be) out of it, since I don't really want to s~*# all over someone's religion ;)

[Rednal]

I'm sure the mods will appreciate us staying on topic, yes. XD

I think the fundamental question of stating gods comes down to how you want them to interact with the game world - i.e. is there ever a point in which their numbers are going to matter? If player characters are meant to have them and have something that at least resembles a fighting chance, their numbers should be within reach of what the players can manage. If not, they functionally remain plot devices. XD

[Odraude]

I imagine that if the players are simply going to interact with gods on a roleplaying basis, then there really isn't much of a need for stats.

If the players will be completing with the gods over dominion, or just straight up killing them a la Elric, then you'd want stats. Though I feel that with gods, you'd want to keep things abstract and loose. I imaging a very simplified, almost FATE-esque Pathfinder mechanic to keep it convertible would be best.

[Tacticslion]

One of the weirder campaigns I've run involved a magic effect gone awry (the PC) slowly ascending to godhood by claiming the divinity of several others. Whenever it came time to face a god directly, she always battled the god in a game of Magic: the Gathering - and the god in question always cheated (though it was legitimate - they were, after all a god).

That is, by virtue of its divinity, it always gained some "unfair" advantage - extra cards, extra turns, extra abilities, extra whatever - that it could, at any time, bring to the battle. How much "extra" and what kind were determined by divine rank and portfolio, respectively.
(Gods fighting gods was... anarchic!)

The story was built around the idea that she could do this, however (and she'd been primed to be able to do exactly this sort of thing), so she also had the ability to "cheat" - by going out and claiming certain artifacts, creatures, land, worshipers, and similar in the normal PF-style part of the game, those would show up for free, automatically, in the M:tG part of the game.

Whoever won, then, gained the other entity's divinity.
(Divinity transfer rules were indirect - you only gained a number of divine ranks of a god of an equal or lower tier equal to their tier: 0 (really 1/2) for quasi, 1 for demi, 2 for least, 3 for lesser, 4 for intermediate (hypothetically 5 for greater. For every tier of difference, you gained one less "rank" from the other entity. If you absorbed the full essence of a deity of a higher tier, than you assumed their ranks, and adjusted that by your own tier. Managing a portfolio is difficult - it means having a number of "ghost ranks" per portfolio element expressed - that means you have to "rank up" as it were for each portfolio element; though it's also nice, because if disaster strikes, something happens and reality moves on without some aspect of your portfolio or whatever, you can still be relevant. Pros and cons. The nice thing about getting another's divinity this way, though, is you get their divinity, and you're more or less automatically "ranked up" while maintaining your full portfolio - as well as their own - depending, of course, on the salience of those portfolios. Buuuuut that was a more complex and very specific-to-that-campaign thing.)

Probably not relevant to this particular game, but I figured I'd mention, since it was one way in which we "statted" up gods for combat in a non-d20 method even when playing d20 games.

[Starbuck_II]

My Self wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

My Self wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

gods should have a min of 400 in each ability score and have a minimum of 1000 hit die as their power is immense possibly with 1.5 bab progression and a d20 hit die

There are probably simpler ways that make more sense in system terms to do it than that.

Minimum of 400 in a stat means you get at least +195 to anything important, including health. This works out to over +2.3 to a stat per level. Dragon Disciple is a (supposedly HD=CR) PRC that provides +2 every other level. d20 HD (10.5/level, or 3d6 HD) and 1.5 BAB will probably push you above +1 CR/level on its own, even if you have poor saves (which is not a given). Guessing really, really roughly, the stat boosts, huge HD, and BAB boosts probably come out to +2 CR/HD. So really, we're looking at CR 2000+ monstrosities, disregarding any special abilities they might possess.

Mathfinder kinda breaks down at ridiculously high numbers. When differences in numbers become more than +20, weird stuff starts to happen.

well they are GODS they are suposta be ridiculously over powered they should be in the thousands of cr level they could probably wipe a party of pc's off the face of the planet by just thinking about it with enough intent to kill

But there are better ways to stat them up so they can wipe out a party of PCs, without using a bazillion HD. And also note that Pathfinder deities are generally much more subtle than "wipe out all the people I don't like just by looking at them". Just give them special abilities that lets them nuke a place once a week, or inspire vast amounts of followers. Stats don't make the character, special abilities do. Also, DR, regeneration, or self-resurrection against mortal methods of killing would be helpful.

** spoiler omitted **...

Ooh, I'm stealing this for my Corrupt Magic spell list (I'm thinking 6th or 7th, lowering damage to 1d4 per if same caster and 1d6 per if more).

[stormcrow27]

The easiest way as was previously mentioned, is to use Deities and Demigods and stat them up as divine rank 15 and down, since the common deities are listed as intermediate or greater gods, and no overgod exists on Golarion (that we know of). The Golarion gods book has their level of power built into the notes for the deities.

So, you can use those rules with Pathfinder classes, and then adjust the outside pantheons like the Egyptian (which has equivalents in the 3e Deities and Demigods book) via the same method. Also, d20 Call of Cthulu by Monte Cook has 3.0 stats for most of the Lovecraftian pantheon, so if you need a tougher Cthulu there you go. Probably the last adjustment you want to make is for the gods to have access to mythic versions of spells and powers etc/mythic feats. For by blows and semi-divine offspring/ultimate super servants, use the godling class from Rogue Genius Games.

[Firewarrior44]

You also might be able to stat them up using Godbound (there's a free version). It would defiantly be a lot more abstract than using PF / 3.5 rules but it would also give a decent framework for defining what / how they can influence things.

[The Golux]

You're not a god unless you can cast miracle at will as a free action, have at least a 90% chance to negate critical hits from a non-mythic source (75% non-deific source), automatically save versus non-mythic effects, and have magic and damage immunity against non-mythic or deific sources. And at least +40 on all skills.

[Odraude]

Firewarrior44 wrote:

You also might be able to stat them up using Godbound (there's a free version). It would defiantly be a lot more abstract than using PF / 3.5 rules but it would also give a decent framework for defining what / how they can influence things.

Having played SWN, Sine Nomine makes some great products. And since a lot of it is based off of Basic D&D, it just takes a little finagling to convert and run a game.

[kyrt-ryder]

The Golux wrote:

You're not a god unless you can cast miracle at will as a free action, have at least a 90% chance to negate critical hits from a non-mythic source (75% non-deific source), automatically save versus non-mythic effects, and have magic and damage immunity against non-mythic or deific sources. And at least +40 on all skills.

Why do people WANT 'gods' like this? These aren't characters in the world, they're unapproachable freaks.

[Odraude]

Because most gods in mythology were approachable and heavily flawed. Most people are looking at this through a Judeo-Christian monotheistic lens. But if you look at the Olympians or Norse, they were super flawed and could be killed. Read the Ramayana or the tales of Sun Wukong or any Greek mythos or Native American legend and you'll see tales of mortals tricking and defeating the gods. Most cultural heroes are essentially paragons of mortals duping the creators and stealing something from them (secret of fire, riddle of steel, agriculture).

That said, I don't really want a god with 4 million HP and complicated stats like that.

[kyrt-ryder]

Odraude wrote:

Because most gods in mythology were approachable and heavily flawed.

My point exactly. Zeus is nothing more than a Druid.

[Odraude]

Not really though. He's still incredibly powerful, took down the titans, and really can't be killed. The druid class isn't enough to really showcase Zeus or Odin or the other gods, both in the real world and literature. The rules don't really cover having your own afterlife to syphon souls to, or beings that can create a planet from nothing, or the capability of shattering stars and such. And that's why I at least like rules for this. But my personal preference is to keep things abstract. If we have CR40 creatures with a million HP and +50 saving throws, that gets super unwieldy.

Personally, I don't get the push back of keeping gods untouchable. Especially with so many games out there that do it, it really isn't that bad to have players ascending to godhood on their own, or going all Elric of Melnibone and cleaning house. And with Godbound, it's a lot easier to convert that style to d20. At this point, it just seems like a personal preference people trying to shove at those that want stats for gods. Which is silly.

[kyrt-ryder]

So... which feat of Zeus [barring weird procreation things] can't be done by a Level 20 Druid?

Taking down the Titans doesn't qualify as anything special because they're the same general type of god.

'Having an afterlife to syphon souls from' where is this listed and what is it stated to do?

[The Sideromancer]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

So... which feat of Zeus [barring weird procreation things] can't be done by a Level 20 Druid?

Taking down the Titans doesn't qualify as anything special because they're the same general type of god.

'Having an afterlife to syphon souls from' where is this listed and what is it stated to do?

Do all this stuff regardless of what he may or may not be wearing.

[kyrt-ryder]

That's a problem with Pathfinder's gear reliance. Dump 'Magic Items Wealth By Level in gold' and replace it with 'Innate Powers Paid for by Wealth By Level in abstract rather than gold' and you're set.

[The Sideromancer]

That was more of a "Druids need to git guld" comment than anything

[Cheburn]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

So... which feat of Zeus [barring weird procreation things] can't be done by a Level 20 Druid?

Shape change into rain? (to be fair, that's a 'weird procreation thing,' but it implies that he could turn into rain whenever he wanted).

Successfully throw a mountain?

Get angry and flood the world, killing nearly everyone, then repopulate the world by turning stones into humans at the request of someone who survived?

[Sauce987654321]

Cheburn wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

So... which feat of Zeus [barring weird procreation things] can't be done by a Level 20 Druid?

Shape change into rain? (to be fair, that's a 'weird procreation thing,' but it implies that he could turn into rain whenever he wanted).

Successfully throw a mountain?

Get angry and flood the world, killing nearly everyone, then repopulate the world by turning stones into humans at the request of someone who survived?

Sounds like stuff that's in the Miracle/Wish territory. I don't think Druids get Miracle, do they?