Mavaro has the ability:
You may display a card to gain all skills listed on the check to acquire for that card qual to your Intelligence until the end of the turn. At the end of the turn, recharge the displayed cards.
My question is can Mavaro display a card during an encounter to gain the skill needed in the encounter or does he have to display it before his encounter?
For example Mavaro encounters Find Traps which is a Wisdom/Divine 6 check to acquire. He has a Flame Staff in his hand which is an Arcane/Divine 4 check to acquire. Can he display Flame Staff to gain Divine: Intelligence +0 during the encounter?
Second question. If he can display during the encounter could he also do the same in for a ranged combat check? During the encounter could he display a Kopis to gain Intelligence: Ranged +0 and then immediately play another Kopis to use that skill in combat?
I know there are some restrictions about what is valid to play during the encounter and I'm not certain whether his power lets him trigger it during an encounter or not.
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Yes to both questions. As long as you're using one of the skills gained and you haven't already used the power on that check, it would be allowed.
Play cards and use powers that affect the check (optional). Players may now play cards or use powers that affect the check. Players may not play cards that modify a skill unless you’re using that skill, and players may not play cards that affect combat unless you’re attempting a combat check. Do not add traits from these cards to the check; for example, playing the spell Guidance on a check does not give the check the Divine trait.
To elaborate on 2):
- displaying the Kopis is playing a character power, not playing a weapon; therefore, playing a second Kopis for its power doesn't break your limit of 1 weapon per check
- generally, during an encounter, you may only play cards and power that affect the encounter WITHOUT requiring any follow-up action. Your displaying of Kopis only makes sense if it immediately helps the encounter, so what you would have, IMHO, is this:
=> Reveal a Kopis to use your Ranged for combat (this is Determine Your Skill step)
=> your 'untrained' Ranged with Mavaro is a d4
=> Display a Kopis to modify Mavaro's Ranged from d4 to equal to his Intelligence (Affect the Check step, the rule quoted by Fatalist)
Therefore, you may *only* display the Kopis AFTER you have determined your skill; and of course this means you need only ONE Kopis for the encounter. Cheers.
Therefore, you may *only* display the Kopis AFTER you have determined your skill; and of course this means you need only ONE Kopis for the encounter. Cheers.
By that logic, virtuose Lem could reveal a weapon for his combat check and immediately afterwards recharge it to get an additional 1d4. Is that actually allowed? Doesn't feel right to me, and I'm not sure that is in the app.
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Therefore, you may *only* display the Kopis AFTER you have determined your skill; and of course this means you need only ONE Kopis for the encounter. Cheers.By that logic, virtuose Lem could reveal a weapon for his combat check and immediately afterwards recharge it to get an additional 1d4. Is that actually allowed? Doesn't feel right to me, and I'm not sure that is in the app.
Yep, that is absolutely allowed. I haven't tried it with that specific ability, but it works with similar ones in the app.
See also, Varril. Last night I was down to one card in hand on a combat check. I revealed my Deathbane Crossbow for Dexterity + 1d8 +1, then recharged it to swap Dex for Divine.
It boils down to the fact that revealed cards still count as part of your hand. So, in your example, once Lem reveals his weapon to set up his combat check, he is then free to use it for his recharge power because the skill for the check has already been set.
Huh, you learn something new everyday I guess.
I agree that following the golden rules, there is no actual reason why it shouldn't work, it just struck me as counter intuitive. On the other hand, I can't remember being confronted with this issue during play, so I guess it's just something to keep in mind for now (at least, until MM arrives and I might consider using mavaro).
See also, Varril. Last night I was down to one card in hand on a combat check. I revealed my Deathbane Crossbow for Dexterity + 1d8 +1, then recharged it to swap Dex for Divine.
Actually, I believe Mavarro's power may be an improved wording of what Varril does (iirc; I don't own the class deck). It is clear that you use your Intelligence value for the check, without any of the ambiguity of what the check actually is (i.e. is your Dethbane combat a Dexterity or Divine check); I wouldn't be surprised if Varril is FAQed into similar wording.
More questions that are Mavaro related.
1. Does his gained skills also count as intelligence? The wording makes this unclear. It it equivalent to getting Arcane: Intelligence +0 or is it closer to gaining 1d10 Arcane skill that isn't linked to anything. It depends where I could use Embalmer (recharge for +1d4 on an Intelligence check) for all his weird checks.
2. Can get gain Strength, Dexterity, etc using his ability? I think so because everything is a skill and there isn't really a distinction between Strength and Arcane in what they count as. Combined with question 1 does this let him make an Intelligence & Strength check?
More questions that are Mavaro related.
1. Does his gained skills also count as intelligence? The wording makes this unclear. It it equivalent to getting Arcane: Intelligence +0 or is it closer to gaining 1d10 Arcane skill that isn't linked to anything. It depends where I could use Embalmer (recharge for +1d4 on an Intelligence check) for all his weird checks.
2. Can get gain Strength, Dexterity, etc using his ability? I think so because everything is a skill and there isn't really a distinction between Strength and Arcane in what they count as. Combined with question 1 does this let him make an Intelligence & Strength check?
1)That's a good question, and one that can only be answered by official input I feel. Personally, outside of the 'untrained' d4, I dislike the idea of sub-skill unattached to any primary and I can't think off the top of my head of any such case currently existing, though I fully expect Hawkmoon to swoop in with a card or power quote that proves me wrong.
I have to admit though, before you asked I never thought it's anything else that Arcane 1d10+X, based on how I took the wording. I can see now how it can be ambiguous in regards to Arcane: Intelligence +02) This seems an obvious 'yes'.
The ability to use a primary skill as derivative of another primary skill (i.e. Stength: Intelligence + 0) is a thing that makes me lean towards a 'no' on 1), but only because it somehow 'feels' wrong, there's nothing in the rules currently that would forbid such a case.
Also, whatever the ruling in for 1), I fully expect when we finally get an Investigator hero that we'll get Melee: Intelligence + X.
2) As Longshot says, is clearly Yes. It's right there in his power. Any skill called for by the Acquire check of the card you display, Mavaro gains that skill. Blessings of the Elements are good for this.
I'd argue the resulting check is still the original skill, definitely. Whether the check is an Intelligence check brings us to....
1) Not clear. Does gaining Ranged equal to Intelligence mean I've gained Ranged : Intelligence + 0 or Ranged : d10? Since skills in the game tend to work the first way, I could see it that way. But going strictly by the wording of his power, I'd say we don't have grounds to say the final check is an Intelligence check.
If you look at the power, it does say equal to your Intelligence but it doesn't say that it replaces that skill with Intelligence.
Replacing a skill ("use your Intelligence instead of X") is not at all the same as gaining X: Intelligence+0.
So Mavaro not being the same as Varil, doesn't rule out the X: Intelligence+0 theory, imho.
Does gaining Ranged equal to Intelligence mean I've gained Ranged : Intelligence + 0 or Ranged : d10? Since skills in the game tend to work the first way, I could see it that way. But going strictly by the wording of his power, I'd say we don't have grounds to say the final check is an Intelligence check.
It's easy to see how the wording may be taken that Mavaro gains Ranged: d10. The problem, I think, is that it's not really clear what wording the devs could use if they wanted him to gain Ranged : Intelligence + 0.
The best that I could come up with is "gain all skills ... equal to your Intelligence + 0", but then I can see how this zero can have been seen as redundant.So, setting aside Mavaro for a second, can anyone suggest a good wording for what essentially would be "You gain {MultipleSkills}: Intelligence +0" ?
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If you look at the power, it does say equal to your Intelligence but it doesn't say that it replaces that skill with Intelligence.Replacing a skill ("use your Intelligence instead of X") is not at all the same as gaining X: Intelligence+0.
So Mavaro not being the same as Varil, doesn't rule out the X: Intelligence+0 theory, imho.
Does gaining Ranged equal to Intelligence mean I've gained Ranged : Intelligence + 0 or Ranged : d10? Since skills in the game tend to work the first way, I could see it that way. But going strictly by the wording of his power, I'd say we don't have grounds to say the final check is an Intelligence check.It's easy to see how the wording may be taken that Mavaro gains Ranged: d10. The problem, I think, is that it's not really clear what wording the devs could use if they wanted him to gain Ranged : Intelligence + 0.
The best that I could come up with is "gain all skills ... equal to your Intelligence + 0", but then I can see how this zero can have been seen as redundant.
So, setting aside Mavaro for a second, can anyone suggest a good wording for what essentially would be "You gain {MultipleSkills}: Intelligence +0" ?
The only problem I see with this is that they didn't say you gain the skill:
<skill>: Intelligence
At this point, until they state that the skill is now Intelligence-based, I wouldn't play this as an Intelligence check. Right now, it is just a <skill(s)> check according to the card displayed.
The only problem I see with this is that they didn't say you gain the skill:
<skill>: Intelligence
At this point, until they state that the skill is now Intelligence-based, I wouldn't play this as an Intelligence check. Right now, it is just a <skill(s)> check according to the card displayed.
I agree, pending a ruling, I wouldn't play it as Intelligence check either. My point was, if Mavaro was gaining a single, defined skill, they would definitely word it as you mention: <skill>: Intelligence
However, given that he gains multiple, undefined skills, how could the devs go about wording if the intent is to have:
<unknown and unknowable skill(s)>: Intelligence ?
The wording about gaining the skill equal to another skill is actually very similar to S&S Damiel's power.
I've personally gone back and forth on Damiel. Sometimes I think he is making a Craft check when he recharges a spell and sometimes I think he isn't.
Is this a similar situation as RotR Sajan? If so, there was a thread asking which blessing to use for his combat check, since his power allowed him to use his Dex die instead of his Str. The ultimate answer was to use the Dex blessings to give him 2 extra dice. I don't have any cards in front of me, and I'm blanking on the name. Feel free to edit the names in. The picture looks like a bow and arrow.
Using that as the base example, wouldn't other cards with similar replace X skill with X die also work the same way?
No, because that's the RotR wording. If you look at the Pathfinder Adventures wording of the power (which is what the modern wording would be), it says
"For your combat check, you may use your Dexterity skill; you may not play a weapon on the check."
RotR had a set of wordings that didn't differentiate the die from the skill, so in subsequent sets the wordings got updated to reflect that. But in RotR land the wordings never got updated (because it would impact nearly half the set), not even in the downloadable pdf character sheets.
Ok. I understand the change in wording now. I received MM tonight and tried to view some of the characters in between feeding a fussy baby. I have this same exact question now lol. Does anyone know what this correlates to in the RPG? Is it similar to a more physical version of bardic knowledge? This seems like a case where you would want to keep a hodge podge of cards just to get the various skills. Since that would be very unfocused, it seems to scream "generalist."
I know the cards and powers do not always correlate to the RPG but sometimes it helps to understand the intention. Until an official ruling comes down anyway.
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In the rpg, an occultist channels the innate magical energy in items in order to cast spells and use other abilities. For example, you can put on a belt that might give you +2 to Climb, but then channel that energy into a more general +2 to Strength instead. That's why you can reveal pretty much any type of card to gain skills.
Realizing this is a critical question if you cross-play Mavaro in Wrath. Basically the answer determines if you can play him as a caster or not.
If the gained-skill check is not an Intelligence check, you really wouldn't want to play a caster, because he could never use mythic charges on his Attack spell combat checks. You'd have to go martial.
I don't have my set so I don't know if there are any 2-dice Intelligence blessings in MM. I assume so, but there are a lot of funky blessings to be sure.
I don't have my set so I don't know if there are any 2-dice Intelligence blessings in MM. I assume so, but there are a lot of funky blessings to be sure.
Not to mention, if there is Brilliance in MM (or if you import it) - this could potentially be "+3 to everything".
And in the second half of RotR, there are several stacking items you can reveal to boost your Intelligence as well.
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I thought his best friend was that skull he was holding. But for a card the Blessing of the Elements does seem pretty good for him.
BoE is good for Mavaro. But it won't help him cast an Attack spell (or recharge it).
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Yeah, but I don't see Mavaro being that useful of an Attack spell caster anyway. He seems much better suited to a more generalist/support type character, with the ability to still hold his own in combat with a weapon.
If I wanted someone with good Attack spell capabilities, I'd just play one of the other stronger spellcasters.
It seems like maybe Blessing of the Elements are Mavaro's best friend? Display one, gain all six primary skills as equal to your Intelligence. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.
Haha, thought I was the first one to mention it in the preview thread, only to find out I was ninja'd in this thread.
I don't have the set yet, but right now BotE seems vastly superior than every other blessings for him, and you don't even need to discard it. It's value scales with the number of checks you make in a round though, so I guess some thought has to be put into its timing.
I'm not sure if that would be better in a game with small or big parties though - when you max the blessings to 6 BotE and cycle through your deck, you might very well have one for each of your own turns during a 6 player game.
I'll probably wait for the season before I play him though, I'm more curious about ahmotep, zadim, estra and yoon.
Chief Technical Officer
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Does his gained skills also count as intelligence? The wording makes this unclear. It it equivalent to getting Arcane: Intelligence +0 or is it closer to gaining 1d10 Arcane skill that isn't linked to anything. It depends where I could use Embalmer (recharge for +1d4 on an Intelligence check) for all his weird checks.
Making a skill equal to his Intelligence does not mean he is using his Intelligence when using that skill. He's not.
("Is equal to" ≠ "is")
Just to be clear, does that mean that blessings on a 'skill equal to intelligence' also grant an additional 'die equal to the intelligence die' (1d10 in this case)? In other words, does it also change the associated die?
Just to be clear, does that mean that blessings on a 'skill equal to intelligence' also grant an additional 'die equal to the intelligence die' (1d10 in this case)? In other words, does it also change the associated die?
Well, you Arcane:d4 has just become an Arcane:d10+X so I should say.
I mean, what *is* a skill after all if not a specific die, and *maybe* some hard bonuses?
EDIT: Also, blessings by default add the type of die you're using for the check - which would be you Intelligence die? Am I missing a reason why it would be otherwise?
Got it! Thanks!
Mavaro was just weird (and cool) enough that I wasn't certain how the finer points of his ability worked. Thanks for clarifying.
One thing to remember re: Blessing of Elements, there is a good reason to take other blessings. For the most part, blessings are the most common boon that uses the divine skill, so if you want to use Mavaro as a support & healer type, you want at least some other blessings to allow him to consistently get divine to keep your cure spells. In general I agree that Elements are by far the most versatile boons, but there's still some considerations there.
Thanks for the answer, Vic!
EDIT: Also, blessings by default add the type of die you're using for the check - which would be you Intelligence die? Am I missing a reason why it would be otherwise?
I assumed as much, but I wasn't sure. I could've imagined that you get the original dice when playing a blessing for some reason. Probably got confused by thinking about items like the 'necklace of fireball', which don't have skills assigned in the first place.
However, I have yet another question now:
Can you have multiple versions of the same skill?
Let's take Vics example with Int: 1d10+1 and say mavaro has to make a check featuring dexterity in RotR. He displays a Thieving Tools, which involves dexterity and disable to acquire (at least if memory serves right, if not, just roll with it for now).
According to his card text, you can not choose a subset of skills to gain, so now he gains Disable: 10d+1, although he already had Disable: 10d+3. Can he choose between the two, or is the former his skill for the round?
This is technically also relevant for the Skill Slug from the goblin class deck.
I'd play it as he can still use the skills literally printed in the skill section of his cards. In your example, I'd say he has both
Disable: Dexterity +3
Disable: 1d10 +1
And he could choose with way to go with it. Which might be important for that "overkill" thing we are seeing. Obviously, he can only choose one though. He can't switch back and fort between the two during the check.
Here is his card for reference.
So, pretend he displays a card that has Perception in the check to acquire (and he has a skill feat in Intelligence and a skill feat in Wisdom). He'd then have
Perception: 1d10 +1
Perception: Wisdom +2 (aka 1d8 +3)
He couldn't make a Perception check, choose the wisdom version for the +3 and the "power" version for the dice from blessings. When he determines which skill he's using, he sticks with it for the whole check.
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However, I have yet another question now:
Can you have multiple versions of the same skill?
Here's my take on it:
- Nothing in the rules RAI indicates you may *not* have two different values for the same skill, so until ruled otherwise, I'd say "yes"- As MM seem to bet the farm on checks that don't 'overkill' it, this may be particularly important; in your example, yes, Disable: d10+2 would be more favorable most of the time; I fully expect a barrier, that has a "if you defeat this card by X or less..." stipulation
- In the above case, you must decide if you're using your weaker or your stronger skill *before* you roll, naturally
-Important thing to note: as currently worded, "you may display a card to gain all skills...", you don't seem to have a choice if you have those skills or which one to gain - you get them *all*, period. This may be of importance if there're any cards like the WotR Mad Knight, which has the power "If you have the Divine skill, you're dealt 1d4+1 Combat damage".
I think the big thing to take from this thread is that Mavaro is going to get a lot of play. He's such a cool character.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I'd play it as he can still use the skills literally printed in the skill section of his cards. In your example, I'd say he has both
Disable: Dexterity +3
Disable: 1d10 +1
Yep—the power says he gains these skills, but it doesn't say it replaces existing skills.
I just thought I would mention that this ruling means that his last ability on both of his roles is significantly worse than I initially thought. It restricts the use to his natural Intelligence, Knowledge, and Disable (and potentially Arcane & Divine on his channeler side).
These abilities are...
Acquisitor:
[] On your Intelligence check, after the roll, you may bury ([] or discard) a weapon, an armor, or an item to add or subtract 3.
Channeler:
[] On your Intelligence check, after the roll, you may discard an item to reroll the dice; take the new result.
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I just thought I would mention that this ruling means that his last ability on both of his roles is significantly worse than I initially thought. It restricts the use to his natural Intelligence, Knowledge, and Disable (and potentially Arcane & Divine on his channeler side).
These abilities are...
Acquisitor:
[] On your Intelligence check, after the roll, you may bury ([] or discard) a weapon, an armor, or an item to add or subtract 3.Channeler:
[] On your Intelligence check, after the roll, you may discard an item to reroll the dice; take the new result.
So, you're saying that he's merely astoundingly versatile instead of absurdly over-powered, eh? I'm ok with that.
So, you're saying that he's merely astoundingly versatile instead of absurdly over-powered, eh? I'm ok with that.I just thought I would mention that this ruling means that his last ability on both of his roles is significantly worse than I initially thought...
Yes if indeed, as You "first thought" Apophenia, Mavaro could pretty much use a big die on ANY check then the game would be broken for the 100 or so other existing characters.
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Ok, I've re-skimmed this thread, and I didn't see an answer to this.
There was a question about redundancy... If Mavaro has:
Disable: Dexterity +3
Disable: 1d10+1
He gets to pick.
But what if he uses a card to get the skill Dexterity: 1d10+1? If his card says he has Disable at Dexterity +3, does that mean he rolls 1d10+4?
I don't think so. I believe that the skills on the card are specifically associated with the skill above it. So Disable: Dexterity+3 is referring specifically to the Dexterity skill listed right above it. Now, if there's a power feat that gives that effect, there might be some question, but I assume it's implicit that it works as a skill in the skill section of the card.
I can't think of a card which changes the die or modifier of your base skill, but I'd say in James' example Mavaro would have the option of rolling d10+4. His disable skill is whatever his Dexterity skill is at the moment + 3. If his Dexterity skill is d10 + 1, then that's d10 + 4.
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Since most of his "non-root" skills are based on Intelligence, anyway, only Perception (and maybe Divine on his role card? Don't have it on me...) can be abused this way with a card that lists Wisdom to acquire. This came up last night, when my fiancee upped her Wisdom to make a Perception check a touch easier.
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Does his gained skills also count as intelligence? The wording makes this unclear. It it equivalent to getting Arcane: Intelligence +0 or is it closer to gaining 1d10 Arcane skill that isn't linked to anything. It depends where I could use Embalmer (recharge for +1d4 on an Intelligence check) for all his weird checks.Making a skill equal to his Intelligence does not mean he is using his Intelligence when using that skill. He's not.
("Is equal to" ≠ "is")
I just thought I would mention that this ruling means that his last ability on both of his roles is significantly worse than I initially thought. It restricts the use to his natural Intelligence, Knowledge, and Disable (and potentially Arcane & Divine on his channeler side).
These abilities are...
Acquisitor:
[] On your Intelligence check, after the roll, you may bury ([] or discard) a weapon, an armor, or an item to add or subtract 3.Channeler:
[] On your Intelligence check, after the roll, you may discard an item to reroll the dice; take the new result.
I don't dispute Vic's original call on RAW, but I think Apophenia makes a good argument that RAI might have been along the lines of the old "you may use Intelligence in place of any listed skill..." wordings. If it's not too much trouble - can we get a confirmation on intent on Mavaro's main power, for purposes of the two quoted role powers?