Reflex save while paralyzed


Rules Questions

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Snowlilly wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:
If Create Pit is cast in a 10x10x10 room (you have been forgetting an entire dimension) with no ledges or anything around the pit then the "nearest open space" is the bottom of the pit. The spell does not say "a successful reflex save forces you to jump to a space outside the pit". If they make the reflex save in this case they will land safely on the bottom of the pit without taking any falling damage.

This works for Create Pit, but not for higher level versions of the spell, where the bottom of the pit is not "safe."

Not that I would rule it any differently in a real game, even with an Acid Pit.

The "safety" of the bottom of the pit is irrelevant. The reflex save does not say your destination has to be safe, it says it has to be "open". My phrasing, "they will land safely on the bottom of the pit" was only referring to the falling damage. Another way to phrase it would be "they land successfully on the open space", as in they don't fall.

EDIT: actually it totally does say jump to safety, d'oh


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deusvult wrote:

Spell descriptions aren't just fluff. The gold standard in discussing what you can or can't do with a spell is exactly what the spell description says, and nothing more.

The spell says you must "jump" to an open space. Personally I'd be amenable to a character crawling or otherwise traveling via other non-jumping methods, but that's my table. Either way, if you can't physically move you can't move and that's a requirement of making a reflex save for that spell. (Barring some magical, non-somatic teleportation magic available as an immediate action, of course) in the case of Create Pit, if you can't make it to a "safe" square for reasons other than paralysis/immobility you still can't meet the requirements for a successful save even if your PC isn't paralyzed and you roll a nat 20.

Parts of spell descriptions are absolutely fluff in the sense that they have no mechanical effect on the game.

You admitted so yourself when you said that it doesn't have to mean 'jump', it could allow 'crawling' or some other movement.

The spell description says 'jump', so if it's not fluff, then it has to mean 'jump' with an associated DC calculated by the distance to the nearest open space.

Grand Lodge

I am of the opinion a save is allowed. Let heroes do heroic things like resisting hold person enough they make it to an adjacent square in extremis. Hold person allows a person to attempt to end it every round so they are effectively fighting the paralysis. This means small movements may still happen as they are held. Since there is nothing that dictates what part of the 5' square you are held in, a simple lean forward and a move of a foot could allow movement into an adjacent square. Guess the rogue was lucky that his positioning allowed this tiny victory... Understand this is descriptive text to visualize how a reflex save could be made in this scenario. On the other hand if you wish to stick with rules specific there is nothing that disallows a save. The rules are the rules, its up to to the imagination of the gm to state how it occurs, like how I can hit the touch ac of a bat swarm flying in open air with an alchemist flask and have it break open. This also is allowed and forces the gm into heroic story telling mode.

That aside, the end result is likely the same as they will still be frozen on the lip of the pit and have to re-save at the end of thier round anyway.

Yep. Mages still win but not automatically.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
deusvult wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
No, the save is still possible. The result of the save is what is impossible.
Which of course renders having made the save moot as you fall anyway since you didn't make it out of the aoe as the requisite conditon for making the save in the spell description.

See my previous posts about the save being pointless, but still being granted.

Sovereign Court

Since the Create Pit example has its own thread now, I'll conditionally recuse my involvement in this thread on that topic aside from the following:

Yes I am (and always was) on board with paralyzed PCs still getting to make a reflex save. My point in the discussion has always been that despite that "rule of thumb", there are/can be exceptions to that rule. Sometimes you just flat out don't get a save if you can't move and since there are cases like Create Pit enshrined in the rules, the nose of the camel has gotten into the tent. The GM may rule that reflex saves might simpy be disallowed in other contexts that the GM finds to be both comparable and appropriate.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
deusvult wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
No, the save is still possible. The result of the save is what is impossible.
Which of course renders having made the save moot as you fall anyway since you didn't make it out of the aoe as the requisite conditon for making the save in the spell description.
See my previous posts about the save being pointless, but still being granted.

Kinda like how if you make your save vs Disintegrate but the damage still kills you, you're still a pile of ash.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
deusvult wrote:
The GM may rule that reflex saves might simpy be disallowed in other contexts that the GM finds to be both comparable and appropriate.

The GM has always been able to rule that way. The default has always been that the character gets the save unless the instance specifically disallows it.

For the record, the 'leap to open square' text is actually errata, so Paizo likely intended that you had to move out of the pit squares. They just did not make it explicit in their errata.


The old wording read:

Quote:
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to avoid falling into it
The new wording reads:
Quote:
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space.

Seems pretty clear they wanted the bottom of the pit to be a valid target for your reflex save.

Although now that Snowlilly has pointed it out to me the "safety" part of the new wording seems short sighted as it doesn't cover the higher level pit spells with unsafe bottoms.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Snowlilly wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:
If Create Pit is cast in a 10x10x10 room (you have been forgetting an entire dimension) with no ledges or anything around the pit then the "nearest open space" is the bottom of the pit. The spell does not say "a successful reflex save forces you to jump to a space outside the pit". If they make the reflex save in this case they will land safely on the bottom of the pit without taking any falling damage.

This works for Create Pit, but not for higher level versions of the spell, where the bottom of the pit is not "safe."

Not that I would rule it any differently in a real game, even with an Acid Pit.

It don't say safe, it say open.

The two terms aren't equivalent.

The confusion arise because it say "jump to safety" but the space requirement is to be open, not safe.

Jump to safety say that you avoid the falling damage, not that the destination space isn't near the mouth of the tarrasque.
If you were to jump to the nearest safe spot there would be endless debates on what is a safe spot.


Ok so now we can focus on the word jump bit not on the word safety?

You get a save. The idea that a paralyzed person should fall in a pit is true. They should. That's why you get a MASSIVE penalty. A paralyzed level 10 wizard would have to roll like a natural 20. Hell most people would. You're getting a save you're very likely to fail. Every one wins.

Why is the idea of getting a save confusing people? The text of the spell doesn't override the spell itself. The spell itself says you get
A) a save
B) the save is a reflex save
C) with no further modifiers.

Would a paraplegic not get a save because he can't "jump?" No. He gets a save.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Johnico wrote:
You're only automatically a willing target if you're unconscious.
and that only applies to harmless spells too.

No Abraham, it applies to spells that require to be aimed at a willing target, like teleport, dimension door and a few others.

There is no "willing target" option for the Saves.

PRD - Aiming a Spell wrote:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

This is the part about Saving Throw

PRD . Saving Throw wrote:
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

And as you can plainly see being willing only matters to spells that require a willing target. Voluntarily foregoing a save throw is not the same as being a willing target.

So for aiming a spell some spells require a willing target and for that unconscious creatures count as willing.

Voluntarily giving up a save throw is a voluntary choice that can be made (and typically is for spells requiring willing targets) but willingly accepting a spell and voluntarily failing a save throw is not the same as being a willing target for a spell that requires such.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Actually the example I like is that I'm in a 10x10x10 ft cage and I cast create pit at my feet and make my reflex save and I'm out of the cage.

While I don't like the whole immobilized and still get a reflex save, the spell is warping reality via extra dimensional shenanigans and as such I have no problems with the spell accidentally warping you to some open free space based on a successful save. What if there's no free space within 50ft. It doesn't even say adjacent, just nearest free space. I guess one could argue that the bottom of the pit (30 ft away) is the furthest that it can move you.


No you're not, you're hanging onto the bars of the cage.


A silly counter example is you have been imprisoned on a 5' square solid pedestal amidst a square mile of molten lava and someone casts create pit at your feet.


Understand the base rule first, then you can start making GM calls on the edge cases (like being surrounded by lava, trapped in a steel cage, etc).

The base rule is that even creatures which are unconscious, paralyzed, asleep, tied up, whatever, still get to make reflex saving throws (generally with no dex bonus and a -5 dex penalty to boot).

Nothing in the create pit line of spells says anything about losing the saving throw for any of those conditions, so the saving throw still applies.


Neadenil Edam wrote:
A silly counter example is you have been imprisoned on a 5' square solid pedestal amidst a square mile of molten lava and someone casts create pit at your feet.

Simple to resolve, and has nothing to do with the base question.

The area is not of sufficient size to create the pit. The spell fails.

New questions:

  • Does the "of sufficient size clause include the sloped area around the pit - meaning you need a 20x20 area to cast the spell?
  • Does the sloped area around the pit count as safe?

If yes to both, all these edge cases with restricted areas, e.g. 10x10 room, resolve themselves.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Answered in FAQ.


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I wonder how this will be taken...

***munches popcorn***


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Badly.


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Yes! A good FAQ.


Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:


Since when? And what do you base that on?

Since first edition, and every new edition since.

The rules, Gary Gygax, repeated developer comments over the course of 30 years, including Pathfinder.

So no quote, just your random opinion that the rules for this game let you dodge when you are paralyzed.

Ooooookay.

Turns out his "random opinion" was right. We got a FAQ saying so.


TL;DR;

White-Mage wrote:

I have been looking for ages, but I can't find any rules against Reflex saves being effected (Other than dex = 0) when paralyzed and helpless!

For example, my wizard was doing a 1v1 against my rogue/brawler friend (Douche literally became a rogue JUST for that evasion and more reflex :/)
I ended up using Hold Person on him, paralyzing him. Then I used the 'Create pit' spell however he succeeded his reflex save (Which was like +8 without his dex -_-) so while he was paralyzed and helpless, he ended up moving a square out of the pit (When you succeed reflex save on the pit, you automatically move out of the way)

So... did we do that right or was he suppose to fall into the pit? (Thus letting me win a lot faster without wasting all my spells, bloody douche with his 31 AC, +12 reflex with evasion and really high touch AC)

Here is my understanding.

The spell is placed under the target.
Target saved, and so moves 5' away.
The Create Pit spell states: In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it.
Therefore the target needs to make a second save.
However, as they are not standing in the area where you first conjured the pit so do not get to jump to safety in the nearest open space.
Next turn, still on the edge, they need to make another save.
And again.
And again.
Until they fall or find a way to leave that location.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:


Here is my understanding.
The spell is placed under the target.
Target saved, and so moves 5' away.
The Create Pit spell states: In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it.
Therefore the target needs to make a second save.
However, as they are not standing in the area where you first conjured the pit so do not get to jump to safety in the nearest open space.
Next turn, still on the edge, they need to make another save.
And again.
And again.
Until they fall or find a way to leave that location.

/cevah

The bolded part doesn't occur till the targets turn - it is not needed on the casters turn when the create pit spell is cast. The first save is sufficient to get to the edge of the pit and be safe until the end of the targets own turn.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It work as bbangerter said.


Why is the target only moving 5' and not to a safe space or are we assuming that everyone who makes their save ends up needing to save again next turn?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Exactly. The spell doesn't say jump 5', it states that you jump to safety to nearest open space. If the nearest open space is 30ft away, so be it. As I see it, the spell is creating an extra dimensional space, which triggers quantum tunneling, if you make your save, placing you outside the area of effect. The "jump" is just fluff, not mechanics.


Putting common sense aside (which would obviously dictate that someone who is paralysed/unconscious/helpless would not get to make a Reflex save), the section on Reflex saves (page 180 of the CRB) states that; ‘These saves reflect your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations’. Based around that description, if you cannot move (because you are paralysed/unconscious/helpless) then you cannot dodge, because the dictionary definition of the word dodge states; ‘Avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement’. Going by that definition, if you cannot move then you cannot dodge, so you consequently would not get to make a Reflex save if you were paralysed/unconscious/helpless (because Reflex saves reflect your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations, but you cannot dodge if you can't move). You would still get to make a Fortitude save if you were paralysed/unconscious/helpless because your immune system would still be active and able to resist harmful effects such as toxins. This would also be the case for Will saves, as your mind would still active even if you were paralysed/unconscious/helpless, and could consequently defend itself against mind-affecting effects or the likes. But if you cannot move you cannot dodge, and you consequently would not get to make a Reflex save if you were paralysed/unconscious/helpless.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

We've already gone over that. Inanimate objects get to make Reflex saves, so being able to move is not actually a requirement.


Inanimate objects do not get to make Reflex saves, only magical items do, and I would assume they were singled out as an exception because people don't like the idea of having their precious magic items getting damaged or destroyed without their being able to resist. As a rule, Reflex saves relate to an individual/object's ability to move/dodge (as detailed in their description and the definition of the word 'dodge'), so my own assessment would be that if someone/thing cannot move/dodge then it cannot make a Reflex save. Magic items would be an exception to this rule as they are specifically singled out as such (for whatever reason). Obviously people are entitled to interpret the rule in whatever manner they wish, but that is how I would interpret it :)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

So you don't deny that the ability to move is not required to make Reflex saves, you just houserule otherwise. Got it.

Citation.


I probably would houserule it like that if I ever played the game :o, although the citation you listed seems to make this entire thread moot. It doesn't make sense to me that somebody who cannot move can dodge/make a Reflex save, but if the designers have factored other aspects in to Reflex saves (mostly in the form of luck/fate) that's fair enough. Peace.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Yes. The citation listed is actually in response to this thread and others about the subject. This thread started on October 5th, that post was last Friday.


Talonhawke wrote:
Why is the target only moving 5' and not to a safe space or are we assuming that everyone who makes their save ends up needing to save again next turn?

Context. Move to a safe space being safe from what? Answer: safe from immediately falling into the pit.

Anything that may or may not happen afterwords is not part of the save. e.g, Making the save does not mean I cannot later fall into the pit.


Per RAW, the FAQ makes sense. Sure, from a "logic" standpoint it seems silly that a paralyzed can avoid a giant pit that opens up beneath them, but then, from a "logic" standpoint, it seems silly that a person can cause another person to become paralyzed, and then open up a giant pit underneath that paralyzed person, all with a few words, a couple waves of the hand, a piece of iron and a small shovel.

The point is that no matter how hard the devs try, they will almost certainly never be able to create an explicit rule set that covers every possible scenario in a completely logical fashion. That's also why "the GM is always right" (going back to the old D&D days). The GM is free to interpret things differently if she wants to.

All that said, I think everyone forget to address the real issue of this thread: Why are the party rogue and wizard fighting each other in the first place?

Dark Archive

Because he attempted to steal from a SCION OF THE EFREETI, and so must pay for insulting OUR NOBLE AND STORIED COURT!

Dark Archive

Indeed, my brother, such a DASTARDLY SCOUNDREL deserves to feel THE POWER OF THE EFREETI for daring to think himself so entitled!


bbangerter wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Why is the target only moving 5' and not to a safe space or are we assuming that everyone who makes their save ends up needing to save again next turn?

Context. Move to a safe space being safe from what? Answer: safe from immediately falling into the pit.

Anything that may or may not happen afterwords is not part of the save. e.g, Making the save does not mean I cannot later fall into the pit.

So its a double save spell? For everyone? My unparalyzed rogue makes his save and still starts his turn having to save again because the clearly sloped sides are "safe"? Landing in a safe spot should mean safe.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The adjacent squares ARE safe, until the end of the characters turn. The spell has on-going saves as long as the character is adjacent to the pit. This is mitigated by the save being at the end of the characters turn, so even a 5ft step away avoids the second save. Being paralyzed prevents that action and ensures the target will need to make continuing saves. So while it may be silly that a paralyzed target can potentially avoid the pit, the chances are slim and require a great deal of luck to accomplish for more than one round.


Talonhawke wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Why is the target only moving 5' and not to a safe space or are we assuming that everyone who makes their save ends up needing to save again next turn?

Context. Move to a safe space being safe from what? Answer: safe from immediately falling into the pit.

Anything that may or may not happen afterwords is not part of the save. e.g, Making the save does not mean I cannot later fall into the pit.

So its a double save spell? For everyone? My unparalyzed rogue makes his save and still starts his turn having to save again because the clearly sloped sides are "safe"? Landing in a safe spot should mean safe.

Except you don't jump to a "safe space" you jump to the "nearest open space". If it actually said safe space it would arguably mean non-adjacent but it doesn't.


Think of the reflex save for a paralyzed character as more of a luck check. Are they in the weaker part of a fireball? Did the excavation of the pit spell knock them out of the hole's area? Etc.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Talonhawke wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Why is the target only moving 5' and not to a safe space or are we assuming that everyone who makes their save ends up needing to save again next turn?

Context. Move to a safe space being safe from what? Answer: safe from immediately falling into the pit.

Anything that may or may not happen afterwords is not part of the save. e.g, Making the save does not mean I cannot later fall into the pit.

So its a double save spell? For everyone? My unparalyzed rogue makes his save and still starts his turn having to save again because the clearly sloped sides are "safe"? Landing in a safe spot should mean safe.

You make the save for the sloping borders of the pit only if you end your turn in the slope area.

Anyone ending his turn in the sloped area must make the save. Being paralyzed only make more difficult rolling a successful save.


Ah had it wrong then no worries at all about that for some reason remembered it at start of turn. Thanks for the multiple clarifications.


Answering the OP. A while back, I believe I asked this question on the James Jacobs thread and he said that you can never be denied a saving throw. I am pretty sure that is how it went. See even if it does not make sense, even if you are tied to a chair, unconscious, and a create pit was cast with you in the middle, you still get a saving throw. I think the point is so you never are just screwed. Again, even if it makes perfect sense to so say you can't roll reflex, you still can for the chance at a 20. I have no idea how you can reflex out of that situation, but whatever.

Edit: Found the post from 2012 but I don't know how to post it here.

Sovereign Court

I wouldn't go so far as to say you can NEVER be denied a savings throw. The example that blew the thread up (Create Pit) does explicitly deny you even the opportunity to roll the d20 if you move or are moved into the aoe after the spell begins. The FAQ clarified that being in the aoe when the spell begins is not comparable to entering (or being forced to enter) the aoe after it's already begun. Therefore, a save is always possible at the onset even though a save is not possible after the onset.


If you are not paralysed and move or are moved into the AoE you don't get a saving throw, being paralysed has no bearing on whether or not you are allowed a saving throw.

If you would be permitted a saving throw unparalysed, you get to make it when paralysed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
deusvult wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say you can NEVER be denied a savings throw.

I would. The general rule is you always get to save against things that grant you saves. If no save is allowed, it will say so. Nothing else in the game will deny you a save if it is allowed, to my knowledge. So Create Pit does not count in this case, because it delineates when the character gets a save and when they don't.


Hasn't the FAQ for this question already been posted? Why is this argument still a thing?


Ventnor wrote:
Hasn't the FAQ for this question already been posted? Why is this argument still a thing?

Because its the rules forum. People come here to waste time arguing.


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It's funny (as much as I agree with the ruling) that not that many people focused on the word "standing" for create pit and saves.


Ventnor wrote:
Hasn't the FAQ for this question already been posted? Why is this argument still a thing?

A few people are trying to argue the ruling is wrong.

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