Is my monk doomed to be worse than the brawler?


Advice

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I made an unarmed monk (no archetype) using the CRB for the campaign, and I was doing okay for awhile, but now I feel really incompetent. A new player joined with a brawler, and he basically does everything better than my character. His attacks hit and do more damage than mine, and it seems like everything saves against my Stunning Fist. He also gets hit less often than me (or so it seems), and he has more HP.

How should I build my character to make him better?


Can we see how your monk is built now? And do you have details of the brawler's build?


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Use an Unchained Monk and not a CRB Monk. Use Dragon Style + Dragon Ferocity. Take the Flying Kick Style Strike. Use the Qinggong Power ki power to pick up Barkskin.

Everything else is gravy.


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What level are you, and is your GM fine with you changing your character?

The reason the brawler is outperforming you is because:

*he has access to armor
*he has a higher hit dice
*he has more flexibility when choosing his bonus feats
*he has more bonus feats than you

You won't win over the brawler in a simple contest of "who can punch the bestest".


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Can we see how your monk is built now? And do you have details of the brawler's build?

My starting scores are:

12 Strength
14 Dexterity
14 Constitution
8 Intelligence
17 Wisdom (boosted to 18 at level 4)
8 Charisma

My character is human.

My feats look like:

Power Attack
Improved Grapple
Scorpion Style
Bleeding Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Dodge
Mobility

I don't have my sheet on hand for the rest of the info.


use the unchained monk, core is kind of bad.

Readjust your attributes. Your probably divided REALLY evenly with 12's and 14's.

You want to aim for a high of a STR as possible. Assuming 20 pnt and human i would suggest:
19
12
12
10
14
8

This lets you raise your str to 20 at level 4.

So at 4th level your looking at:
BAB+STR-POWERATTACK (suggestion)
4+5-2= +7 to hit, getting 2 attacks on a full attack. You can also spend 1 Ki point to gain an extra attack for a total of 3.
1d8+9 dmg per hit.

Your AC is about 13, you really want to boost this though feats and magic.

You have a ki pool of 4, and a stunning fist DC of 14

HP: averages at 36
Alternitivly you can go alot harder on your maxxing:
(19)20
10
11
10
16
7

This give you the same stats as above except:
ki pool of 5
stunning fist DC of 15
HP average of 32
So you are trading 4 HP and -2 to cha checks for 1 more ki point and fist DC.

You could also forgo some strangth combat to make yourself more deffensive and boost your stunning fist:
14
12
12
10
(19)20
8

This give you:
+6 to attacks (4 with power attack)
1d8+2 dmg (+6 w/ power attack)

AC: 16
Ki: 7
Fist DC: 17
HP: 36

your trading your hits and dmg for AC, ki, and stunning fist.


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Ok, build's not looking good at all.

I can do three things:

1. Explain your mistakes in making that build (and some illegal features it has)

2. Provide an idea on how to make it a more workable and helpful character without having to ask for your GM for a rebuild, but changing your character's role in major ways.

3. Provide an idea on how to make you be able to do what you wanted to do with this character in the first place, but it requires you to ask for a rebuild.

So let me know.


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Yah, your stat array isn't helping you out if one of your goals is melee combat. And Secret Wizard and Wonderstell make good observations, as well.

Usually a melee monk's biggest issues revolve around figuring out how to raise their to-hit and straight damage modifiers, as they have no class abilities that boost them (as other melee classes do: figures have weapon training; barbs have rage; etc).

Your 12 Strength just isn't going to cut it, especially not when placed side-by-side any kind of Strength-based Brawler.

Do you have the ability to rebuild or anything? Or are you having to figure out what to do with your character now?


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two problems I see right off.
1) CRB monk with no archetypes competes with the CRB rogue for worst class. With the right archetypes or unchained it does better.

2) Your stats aren't good for combat. Wisdom kinda shouldn't be your highest stat, your attack stat should be your highest. And you don't qualify for power attack.

But how to help you, Do you have a wizard/sorcerer that can cast mage armor on you? If not get a wand and some UMD to get it, it's super helpful to a monk.


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Raving Nerd wrote:


12 Strength
14 Dexterity
14 Constitution
8 Intelligence
17 Wisdom (boosted to 18 at level 4)
8 Charisma

You're playing a monk with a 15 point buy, that's your problem. They are very MAD(Multi attribute dependent) especially for the core version.


Brawler will be a better melee combatant than a CRB monk. If you have access to retraining or something similar you can fix this. Unchained monk is the simplest answer, and will provide more mobility damage and utility than a CRB monk because its abilities are mostly strong and work well together. However, some archetypes can help with a lot of monk damage issues, if unchained isn't allowed. Qinggong gains a lot of awesome abilities (barkskin and scorching ray are big ones), sohei gives an AC bump and a damage bump with either brawling armor or a martial weapon (sansetsukon is great), and flowing monk and monk of the sacred mountain both have some fun defensive abilities.

In either case, picking up a style feat chain will help considerably. If you stay with CRB, pummeling style will deal with DR and let you use that fast movement to good effect. Don't use this on UMonk, because you can just grab flying kick instead. Dragon style can provide lots of damage on a strength build, and jabbing style works for strength and dex builds. If you want some better defenses, Crane Style is an OK way to add +4 or +5 AC if you can stomach the AC penalty. Snake style is better and offers a few more AoO's for steeper prerequisites. And finally Ascetic Style helps you get a lot of use out of a weapon like a temple sword.

Also do remember that your biggest strength over the brawler is magic. Or more specifically, resisting it. You have a higher will save, a handful of immunities, and one of the few genuinely good touch ACs in the game. Picking up improved grapple and possibly snapping turtle style could help you counter mages, being able to rush across control spells and shut down casting. If you want to go all out with this particular niche pick up Tetori archetype, or at least a few of the related bonus feats.


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Raving Nerd wrote:
Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Can we see how your monk is built now? And do you have details of the brawler's build?

My starting scores are:

12 Strength
14 Dexterity
14 Constitution
8 Intelligence
17 Wisdom (boosted to 18 at level 4)
8 Charisma

My character is human.

My feats look like:

Power Attack
Improved Grapple
Scorpion Style
Bleeding Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Dodge
Mobility

I don't have my sheet on hand for the rest of the info.

You made mistakes in building your character.

Wisdom is a secondary or tertiary stat, not your primary.

You should either have focused on strength>con=wisdom or dex>con=wis. The dex based route is harder since you have to wait till you can afford an agile amulet of mighty fists to get any bonus damage.

You're also using power attacking when you have basically no bonuses to hit. You have a general mismash of feats that aren't very focused in anything.

We can help you build a competent monk, but we would basically need to scrap everything you have and start over. There really isn't a way to salvage this character without starting over, assuming you goal is to deal damage in melee.


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Raving Nerd wrote:

I made an unarmed monk (no archetype) using the CRB for the campaign, and I was doing okay for awhile, but now I feel really incompetent. A new player joined with a brawler, and he basically does everything better than my character. His attacks hit and do more damage than mine, and it seems like everything saves against my Stunning Fist. He also gets hit less often than me (or so it seems), and he has more HP.

How should I build my character to make him better?

Assuming the base Monk, there's a lot of issues with it compared to a brawler.

1. 3/4 BAB; you can't really call yourself a strong martial character unless you're either full BAB, or you have a lot of class-related ways to increase your to-hit (like Magi, Inquisitors, and so on). Monk is and has neither of those things. Brawler is a full BAB class, with flexible feats, and has the same unarmed strike damage scaling as you. So unfortunately, he's going to out-attack bonus you, which means he will effectively out-damage you too. There's also the matter of you guys fighting over the same gear, and if he's getting the better gear because he'd "make better use of it," then all you'll end up getting are handmedowns from him, and that's not fair, or ethical.

2. Flurry of Blows; you basically get the TWF feat chain for free with any unarmed strikes and Monk weapons (which you still need proficiency with, by the way). If you've seen any of the "TWF V.S. Two-Handing" martial threads, you'll know that a lot of people dislike TWF for its hefty pre-requisites, extensive feat taxing, and that it makes it harder for you to hit compared to simply using a two-handed weapon. Those people are right, and quite frankly, that's why Flurry of Blows is always mocked into being named "Flurry of Misses."

3. D8 Hit Dice. I hate to say it, but having D8 Hit Dice and being expected to be a frontline martial character is just absolutely silly. It's scary enough for Rogues and similar "support martials" (remember the Magi and Inquisitor? They fall under this paradigm too) to be stuck with little to no armor, and D8 Hit Dice, but you're expected to be able to hold you own. Without a very strong Constitution, you're going to have less HP than the Brawler too, I might add.

4. Stunning Fist. Normally, this would be a welcome onset, because stunning enemies is pretty brutal. But the problem is that it's Wisdom-based (which makes ramping the DC difficult, even if Wisdom is a priority attribute for you), and most importantly, it's a Fortitude Save. Everything and their grandma, even the stupid D6 Hit Dice and Low Constitution Wizards, have good Fortitude Saves. You'd have better luck using a Fireball on an enemy than a Stunning Fist, 9 times out of 10, and this effectively turns into a dull and pointless feature. In fact, the only good use of getting this right away, is not having to spend character feats to grab it for other feats.

The only saving grace for a Monk in comparison is that they get the Good Will Save progression, gain Fast Movement, Evasion, and a slew of other powers (that, in my opinion, and pretty crappy). They also get to supplement their stupid Flurry of Misses with Ki Points that will result in a Greater Flurry of Misses.

So, how do you fix all of those issues?

For starters, that point buy is abysmally defensive. 14 Dexterity is decent for defenses, but you have practically no Strength, which means you have, outside of an Amulet of Mighty Fists, no bonuses to your damage. Simply using damage dice isn't going to fix a whole lot. Your Constitution would've been okay for D8 Hit Dice, but you have to sacrifice your fidelity if you wish to deal out some wicked damage. That's how the game works; turtling doesn't kill the enemy, that only works if the only thing you have to do to win is to turtle (and therefore leave the enemy to either fail in their objective, or turtling results in them killing themselves), which almost always never happens in this game.

Now, as others have said, Unchained Monk is your friend. Simply ask your GM to be able to revert your Monk class and abilities to the Unchained version. This fixes your BAB issue (because 3/4 BAB for a frontline martial sucks without supplements to back it up), your D8 Hit Dice (now D10), and your Flurry of Blows (which lets you simply make an extra attack at your highest BAB with unarmed strikes, stacking with Haste. At 11th level, you get 2 extra attacks, and with the Ki Points, you can spend 1 to tack on yet another full BAB attack, with the same stackability as Flurry). You sacrifice your Good Will Saves, but since you have a strong Wisdom, it's not like you're missing out a whole lot, since you will probably still have better saves than the Brawler, have more full BAB attacks (and to-hit) than the Brawler, and potentially have the better AC too.

The next best suggestion is to pump up your Strength (dump your Constitution down some, since you'll have D10 Hit Dice), and pick up Dragon Style; more specifically, Dragon Ferocity. With each attack you make with Dragon Style, you're adding 1.5x Strength to your attacks, and with the first attack of each round, it's 2x Strength instead. That's big damage, something which the Brawler can't get access to (at least not right away, like you can). Remember that whole "TWF V.S. Two-handing" debacle I threw at you? Forget about it, you effectively get the best of both worlds there.

So, let's assume 20 Point Buy, you should have (before racial adjustments):

Strength 16
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 9
Wisdom 14
Charisma 7

With Human, that's an easy +2 to your Strength, putting you at a solid 18. That's +4 to hit and damage. By 5th level, you'll gain access to Dragon Ferocity, which would increase your first attack to +8 damage, and your following attacks to +6. You could have up to 3 attacks by that level, each at your full BAB, meaning you could deal as much as 3D8+20 damage per round, an average of 33.5 damage, not including Power Attack (which would be an extra +12 damage on top of it).

You'll have more hit points, even if slightly less AC and Will Saves, but that's the nature of the game. You have to sacrifice the concept of being the god turtle (unless you want to pick up Crane Style, but with the nerfs it received, it's not worth it in my opinion); as appealing as having all that AC is, all it amounts to is a giant "IGNORE ME!" sign, and it is actually a big source of why you're being overshadowed.

I'm not saying having AC is bad, what I'm saying is that compromising between your defense (which is too good for what it's being used on) and your offense (which was abysmal and caused the Brawler to outpace you) is the necessary solution to your problem; well, that, and having the better offensive option available to you.

Hope that helps. Good luck!


You don't have a chance to beat a smart Brawler in a flurry at low levels. He can flurry with a 1d10 weapon at 2nd level (Scizore) or many other 1d8's.


Basic advice that several people are giving, switch to using the Unchained Monk Rules. Only thing I think is missing is technically one less attack at certain levels.

There are some ways to get around the U-Monks AC problems early on that help alot. Get either potions or a Wand of Mage Armor. It gives +4 to your AC and doesnt stop your from using Flurry.

U-Monk is proficient in all Monk special weapons. Sansetsukon in particular is a good one as its a d10 two handed weapon that you get 1.5 strength bonus and still get to Flurry with. At level 1 you can be a Glass Hammer and buff up your AC as soon as you get the Wand I mentioned above.

An alternative you try is to actually focus on Dexterity as your primary. Unarmed Strikes work with the Weapon Finesse feat so you increase you AC, Initiative and other stats. Unfortunately it doesnt raise your damage on rolls.

Liberty's Edge

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Raving Nerd wrote:


12 Strength
14 Dexterity
14 Constitution
8 Intelligence
17 Wisdom (boosted to 18 at level 4)
8 Charisma

Okay, I'm just gonna say here, because I don't think people have been noting it enough, that a lot of your problem is just the stats.

Almost any character with a 12 in their attack stat will do vastly worse than someone with a 16. Indeed, a 16 is sort of the minimum number for your attack stat to ever have. Now, assuming the Brawler has, say, Str 16+, a lot of your problem is just that his stats are way better than yours.

That's not to say that Monk doesn't have serious issues as a Class, but swapping over to Unchained Monk will not substantially help you without stat changes.

Grand Lodge

It's sad to see people knocking Core Monk, especially those saying "dump stuff to buff strength!" blah

I have a Hungry Ghost Monk that had starting stats of 14/14/14/10/14(+2)/10, and so far, she's been a solid character without dumping stats. [Her stats at lvl 10 are 16/16/14/10/20/10]

Going for a dex-based Monk is honestly too costly- especially trying to afford an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists- you will need your strength higher.

I'd also retrain Scorpion Style and Improved Grapple/Bullrush. Scorpion style is feat-sink if you want to Gorgon's Strike/Medusa's Wrath.

If you want Bullrush, go Hungry Ghost and/or get Punishing Kick- you'll get a free knock back without the whole CMB vs CMD nonsense.

i will agree that because Brawler's are full-BAB Martials with an array of feats at their disposal. They outclass core monks.


Selvaxri wrote:

It's sad to see people knocking Core Monk, especially those saying "dump stuff to buff strength!" blah

I have a Hungry Ghost Monk that had starting stats of 14/14/14/10/14(+2)/10, and so far, she's been a solid character without dumping stats. [Her stats at lvl 10 are 16/16/14/10/20/10]

Going for a dex-based Monk is honestly too costly- especially trying to afford an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists- you will need your strength higher.

I'd also retrain Scorpion Style and Improved Grapple/Bullrush. Scorpion style is feat-sink if you want to Gorgon's Strike/Medusa's Wrath.

If you want Bullrush, go Hungry Ghost and/or get Punishing Kick- you'll get a free knock back without the whole CMB vs CMD nonsense.

i will agree that because Brawler's are full-BAB Martials with an array of feats at their disposal. They outclass core monks.

Well they released Unchained Monk because of how bad the original monk was. Its not something thats contested.

Some of the archetypes attempted to make monk better as well, but they are clunkier. Going full unchained monk is much simpler.


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If were going into it, the Monk has long been confusing through multiple decades. Its meant to be an alternative to the Fighter while lacking the Fighter's equipment options especially lacking in armor. It has utility powers that are not game-changers and often a Fighter with potions can do the same. Feather Fall anyone?

The Unchained Monk is far more combat oriented. With more Monk weapons, a better Flurry of Blows system, Ki Powers by default and special attacks(Flying Kick FTW). a basic Monk can make up to 7 attacks while the Unchained Monk can make 6 attacks at +5 Attack and etc.

Really the basic problem is that without equipment the Monk is heavily based on special attack abilities and the basic Monk lacks any. The Brawler is quite a bit better than the basic Monk. The Unchained Monk is much more competitive.

If they ever release a Zen Archer legal archetype for the Unchained Monk Ill be all over it.


The basic Monk can potentially be more competitive, but it needs to be approached with a pretty ruthless determination to be effective, and the build-choices to back that up. A Dual Talent Human going 16/18STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 14/16WIS, 10INT, 8CHA, taking Toughness as their first feat and Dodge as their first bonus feat, and wielding a temple sword in two hands with Power Attack would be an example of a far, far more effective way to go about it.

There are a ton of other ways to build a Monk, of course; but using an ability score for attack that's as good as what another melee character would use is rule no1. Monks at least get to use full BAB when they flurry, so if all those attacks are backed up with decent accuracy it can do reasonably well.


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BadBird wrote:

The basic Monk can potentially be more competitive, but it needs to be approached with a pretty ruthless determination to be effective, and the build-choices to back that up. A Dual Talent Human going 16/18STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 14/16WIS, 10INT, 8CHA, taking Toughness as their first feat and Dodge as their first bonus feat, and wielding a temple sword in two hands with Power Attack would be an example of a far, far more effective way to go about it.

There are a ton of other ways to build a Monk, of course; but using an ability score for attack that's as good as what another melee character would use is rule no1. Monks at least get to use full BAB when they flurry, so if all those attacks are backed up with decent accuracy it can do reasonably well.

Which is to say that a bad class thats optimized well can keep up with a good class thats optimized mediocrely.

If you compare a ruthlessly optimized monk to a ruthlessly optimized barbarian or brawler, the monk gets creamed.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
BadBird wrote:

The basic Monk can potentially be more competitive, but it needs to be approached with a pretty ruthless determination to be effective, and the build-choices to back that up. A Dual Talent Human going 16/18STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 14/16WIS, 10INT, 8CHA, taking Toughness as their first feat and Dodge as their first bonus feat, and wielding a temple sword in two hands with Power Attack would be an example of a far, far more effective way to go about it.

There are a ton of other ways to build a Monk, of course; but using an ability score for attack that's as good as what another melee character would use is rule no1. Monks at least get to use full BAB when they flurry, so if all those attacks are backed up with decent accuracy it can do reasonably well.

Which is to say that a bad class thats optimized well can keep up with a good class thats optimized mediocrely.

If you compare a ruthlessly optimized monk to a ruthlessly optimized barbarian or brawler, the monk gets creamed.

That's stretching it. Right archetype choice can make the Monk a valuable asset for a team, sometimes providing spades more of effectiveness for a party than not just a Barb or a Brawler, but also a Wizard. And archetype choice is part of optimization.

Sensei, Zen Archer, Far Strike, Tetori, Martial Artist, Master of Many Styles, Harrow Warden, Sohei and Maneuver Master all have good builds going for them.

They just aren't very good at fulfilling the iconic Monk role.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
BadBird wrote:

The basic Monk can potentially be more competitive, but it needs to be approached with a pretty ruthless determination to be effective, and the build-choices to back that up. A Dual Talent Human going 16/18STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 14/16WIS, 10INT, 8CHA, taking Toughness as their first feat and Dodge as their first bonus feat, and wielding a temple sword in two hands with Power Attack would be an example of a far, far more effective way to go about it.

There are a ton of other ways to build a Monk, of course; but using an ability score for attack that's as good as what another melee character would use is rule no1. Monks at least get to use full BAB when they flurry, so if all those attacks are backed up with decent accuracy it can do reasonably well.

Which is to say that a bad class thats optimized well can keep up with a good class thats optimized mediocrely.

If you compare a ruthlessly optimized monk to a ruthlessly optimized barbarian or brawler, the monk gets creamed.

A ruthlessly optimized (not unchained) Monk is something that's often grossly underestimated. A level 8 Sohei making 6 full-BAB + Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling Power Attack nodachi strikes in a single full attack (mainhand/offhand/mainhand/offhand/haste/ki) is an absolute avalanche of damage, and that's just going Sohei with obvious choices.


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Just to throw an option out there to actually fix the character you have. Take a level of Cleric with a god that has Unarmed Strike as its Favoured Weapon, take the Feats Channel Smite and then Guided Hand to get your tasty Wis 18 to be your to-hit stat.
Swap Power Attack that you don't qualify for, with Piranha Strike that you do. Still won't be massive damage, but you should hit a lot more reliably at least.


Thanks for the tips, everyone. I'm going to check with my DM to see if I can use the Unchained Monk and change his stats.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
BadBird wrote:

The basic Monk can potentially be more competitive, but it needs to be approached with a pretty ruthless determination to be effective, and the build-choices to back that up. A Dual Talent Human going 16/18STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 14/16WIS, 10INT, 8CHA, taking Toughness as their first feat and Dodge as their first bonus feat, and wielding a temple sword in two hands with Power Attack would be an example of a far, far more effective way to go about it.

There are a ton of other ways to build a Monk, of course; but using an ability score for attack that's as good as what another melee character would use is rule no1. Monks at least get to use full BAB when they flurry, so if all those attacks are backed up with decent accuracy it can do reasonably well.

Which is to say that a bad class thats optimized well can keep up with a good class thats optimized mediocrely.

If you compare a ruthlessly optimized monk to a ruthlessly optimized barbarian or brawler, the monk gets creamed.

The optimization ceiling isn't in a bad place if you have access to the Ultimate Combat and APG style feats and archetypes. Especially if you aren't attached to unarmed combat.

Brawlers have flexibility, but if you've built your monk right Xykon's maxim is in place. Brawlers don't have numbers above the warrior. A sohei or martial artist monk or does as do other monks who contrive somehow to recover ki. Brawler is only for playing with situational feats or for people who don't really know how to select feats and need to be able to partially respec frequently until they figure it out. The optimization ceiling is very low while the optimization floor is very high. This makes it good for casual games and new players, but makes it easy to outperform.

Barbarian is not a useful comparison. Everything else bar primalist bloodrager will come up short because rage powers are actually balanced as if they were magic. But because of the alignment restrictions barbarians and bloodragers cannot be used to build monk-like characters.

The thing about the classic monk is that it doesn't have the gaping hole in its defenses that every other non-paladin martial has. On barbarians and primalist bloodragers with superstition it's limited to the first round of combat if their initiative roll prevents them from raging before being bespelled, but it's still there. Monks have strong will saves. The lower probability of turning on the party means a monk doesn't have to fight as well as say a slayer to be a better character than the slayer. They have to fight adequately, though, and the OP's doesn't.


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Yeah.... CRB, no archetype monk is doomed to fail in use, particularly when built as a turtle.

If you are looking for raw damage, then going sohei is the best if you are looking to use just archetypes. It gets enough bonuses to attack/damage to keep up. Particularly if built well with the right equipment. Brawling armor + gloves of dueling can make your attacks above unchained monk and right on par with brawler (...of course, brawling armor is much, much more expensive now, which is fair for the untypes +2/+2 it gives to unarmed strikes...)

Past that, you can just try to use ki powers from the qinggong archetype to make up for maneuver stuff that brawler has.

...or you could give up unarmed, and have the sohei do a reach build. Reach weapons are always great, and getting a WIIIIIIIIDDDEEE area of full attacks for a flurry class is great. Just go wtih reach, and eventually grab lunge, and you would be golden.

Sovereign Court

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Secret Wizard wrote:

That's stretching it. Right archetype choice can make the Monk a valuable asset for a team, sometimes providing spades more of effectiveness for a party than not just a Barb or a Brawler, but also a Wizard. And archetype choice is part of optimization.

Sensei, Zen Archer, Far Strike, Tetori, Martial Artist, Master of Many Styles, Harrow Warden, Sohei and Maneuver Master all have good builds going for them.

They just aren't very good at fulfilling the iconic Monk role.

You forgot about Drunken Master! (a base one can be solid - and every Sensei should also have Drunken Master mixed in)

In addition - all of them have to be mixed with qinggong. (Sort of a default to we monk fans.)

Otherwise I agree entirely. Core monk is weaksauce - combo it with qinggong & 1-2 other archetypes and it can be very solid. Umonk is an easier way to achieve about the same power level in a more straightforward sort of way.


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Atarlost wrote:
The thing about the classic monk is that it doesn't have the gaping hole in its defenses that every other non-paladin martial has.

Hah, good one. Let me tell you about CMD and touch attacks...


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Funny. When unchained monk came out I remember most everyone calling it a sideways move rather than an upgrade.

The problem isn't that the OP chose to play a core monk over the unchained monk or the brawler (they are all roughly equivalent in my observation), it is that he likely has lower system mastery than his fellow player with the brawler (and the build he has presented seems to support this).

Luckily, he came to the right place; with our help, he will be the very best. B-)


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Ravingdork wrote:
he will be the very best. B-)

♪Like no one ever was♪


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Funny. When unchained monk came out I remember most everyone calling it a sideways move rather than an upgrade.

The problem isn't that the OP chose to play a core monk over the unchained monk or the brawler (they are all roughly equivalent in my observation), it is that he likely has lower system mastery than his fellow player with the brawler (and the build he has presented seems to support this).

Luckily, he came to the right place; with our help, he will be the very best. B-)

it has increased combat effectiveness but is less monk-y also does worse in out of combat stuff...


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Claxon wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
he will be the very best. B-)
♪Like no one ever was♪

♪To punch them is my real test♪


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DominusMegadeus wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
he will be the very best. B-)
♪Like no one ever was♪
♪To punch them is my real test♪

♪To stun them is my cause♪


Bandw2 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Funny. When unchained monk came out I remember most everyone calling it a sideways move rather than an upgrade.

The problem isn't that the OP chose to play a core monk over the unchained monk or the brawler (they are all roughly equivalent in my observation), it is that he likely has lower system mastery than his fellow player with the brawler (and the build he has presented seems to support this).

Luckily, he came to the right place; with our help, he will be the very best. B-)

it has increased combat effectiveness but is less monk-y also does worse in out of combat stuff...

You are the only one in that bandwagon at this point. I killed the rest of the people there myself with my bare own secret wizard hands.

1. It does better in combat.

2. It does better out of combat because you don't need to dump INT.

3. "But high jump and slow fall...!" No one had either of those skills. You needed to Qinggong archetype-replace one of them for Barkskin. Stop pretending they were there.

4. It is more monk-y because you can punch things to kill them. You can do cool style strikes. I can't think of a single thing that is monkier about the CRB monk. Punching? God, no, they were terrible at it. High WIS saves? A myth, because they had less point to put into WIS and less feats available to get something like Iron Will. And as we established before, they always inevitably dumped INT so they weren't even good with skills.

Get with the program, Bandw2.


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Claxon wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
he will be the very best. B-)
♪Like no one ever was♪
♪To punch them is my real test♪
♪To stun them is my cause♪

♪I will travel across the land♪

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ravingdork wrote:
Funny. When unchained monk came out I remember most everyone calling it a sideways move rather than an upgrade.

It's a sidegrade from a well built archetype combo monk.

It's far better than a core monk and much easier to build than the combo'd monk.

Based upon a designer's comment to my saying essentially that in another thread - that was pretty much the intended result.


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Funny. When unchained monk came out I remember most everyone calling it a sideways move rather than an upgrade.

It's a sidegrade from a well built archetype combo monk.

It's far better than a core monk and much easier to build than the combo'd monk.

Based upon a designer's comment to my saying essentially that in another thread - that was pretty much the intended result.

It's also better at being the iconic monk that combines maneuvers, punches and spiritualism than any type of CRB or archetype Monk.


Ravingdork wrote:

Funny. When unchained monk came out I remember most everyone calling it a sideways move rather than an upgrade.

The problem isn't that the OP chose to play a core monk over the unchained monk or the brawler (they are all roughly equivalent in my observation), it is that he likely has lower system mastery than his fellow player with the brawler (and the build he has presented seems to support this).

Luckily, he came to the right place; with our help, he will be the very best. B-)

Well, the sign of his lack of system mastery came out when he said 'crb monk with no archetypes? Sure".

I am still very much on the side ways wagon. Unchained has its advantages, but it came into an oversaturated market for 'monk solutions' between sohei monks and brawlers. That is its main problem. It was pretty much 'same stuff others get, but some of it is earlier and different form'.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This is way too awesome!

Doppelschwert wrote:
Claxon wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
he will be the very best. B-)
♪ Like no one ever was ♪
♪ To punch them is my real test ♪
♪ To stun them is my cause ♪
♪ I will travel across the land ♪

♪ Searching far and wide ♪

♪ Each monster needs to understand ♪

♪ The power that is mine ♪


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Funny. When unchained monk came out I remember most everyone calling it a sideways move rather than an upgrade.

The problem isn't that the OP chose to play a core monk over the unchained monk or the brawler (they are all roughly equivalent in my observation), it is that he likely has lower system mastery than his fellow player with the brawler (and the build he has presented seems to support this).

Luckily, he came to the right place; with our help, he will be the very best. B-)

it has increased combat effectiveness but is less monk-y also does worse in out of combat stuff...

You are the only one in that bandwagon at this point. I killed the rest of the people there myself with my bare own secret wizard hands.

1. It does better in combat.

2. It does better out of combat because you don't need to dump INT.

3. "But high jump and slow fall...!" No one had either of those skills. You needed to Qinggong archetype-replace one of them for Barkskin. Stop pretending they were there.

4. It is more monk-y because you can punch things to kill them. You can do cool style strikes. I can't think of a single thing that is monkier about the CRB monk. Punching? God, no, they were terrible at it. High WIS saves? A myth, because they had less point to put into WIS and less feats available to get something like Iron Will. And as we established before, they always inevitably dumped INT so they weren't even good with skills.

Get with the program, Bandw2.

I mean i've never Qinggong'ed

I also don't use point buy.

also it's a better martial artist, but not a monk.


I don't think you ought to be trying to be a better Brawler than the Brawler. The river doesn't try to be the lake, let your monk focus on some other aspects that the Brawler can't perform.

This is a guy I just threw together in the last hour.

Master Snow-Owl
Human ‘Drunken Master’/‘Sensei’/’Qinggong’ Monk 4
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +11
DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 17, flat-footed 17 (+0 Armor, +2 Dex, +4 Wis, +1 AC Bonus, +2 Natural Armor)
hp 38 (4d8+12)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +9
Defensive Abilities
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +7 (1d8+3/x2; bludgeoning or piercing)
Ranged Shuriken +7 (1d2+2/x2; 10 ft.; piercing)
Special Attacks Stunning Fist (5/day; DC 16; stunning or fatigued)
STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike [Monk1], Stunning Fist [Monk1], Combat Reflexes [Monk1], Lingering Performance [1st], Toughness [Human] & Snake Style [3rd]
Skills Acrobatics +11 (4 ranks +2 dex +3 bonus), Climb +6 (1 rank +2 str +3 bonus), Linguistics +4 (1 rank +0 int +3 bonus), Perception +11 (4 ranks +4 wis +3 bonus), Perform (Oratory) +3 (1 rank -1 cha +3 bonus), Sense Motive +13 (4 ranks +4 wis +3 bonus +2 snake style), Stealth +9 (4 ranks +2 dex +3 bonus) & Swim +6 (1 rank +2 str +3 bonus)
Languages Common & Read Lips
Traits Accelerated Drinker & Heavy Hitter
SQ AC Bonus, Advice (7 rounds/day), Inspire Courage (+1), Inspire Competence (+2), Insightful Strike, Drunken Ki (1/hour), Ki Pool, & Qinggong Power (Barkskin [CL 4])
Equipment: +1 Cloak of Resistance (1,000 gp), +2 Headband of Inspired Wisdom (4,000 gp), Monk’s Outfit, 2 Potions of Infernal Healing [CL 1] (100 gp), 25 Shurikens (5 gp), Wand of Mage Armor [CL 1] (750 gp) & 145 gp.

Character Traits
Accelerated Drinker: You may drink a potion as a move action instead of a standard action as long as you start your turn with the potion in your hand.
Heavy Hitter: You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage rolls made with unarmed attacks.

This guy is primarily a support character, providing bonuses to his teammates and dashing around the battlefield to assist where he is needed. Combat-wise he's building towards Snake Fang, provoking attacks of opportunity & retaliating. His armor class can be pushed to 23 for one round if he drinks a tankard of ale. It can actually get up to 27 before activating defensive combat through the wand of Mage Armor (I presumed there might be an arcane caster in your group who could use it on you right before heading into an upcoming battle). Out-of-Combat he is likely providing way more than the Brawler through his advice ability and once he starts leveling up he'll be able to buff his teammates in a way that will make the Brawler envious.


Secret Wizard wrote:
You are the only one in that bandwagon at this point. I killed the rest of the people there myself with my bare own secret wizard hands.

Am I the only one worried that someone is boasting about having delusions of being a serial killer? That doesn't sound like the mostly harmless kind of madness.


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Are you 100% aware you are in a forum for a role playing game in which there is an actual Serial Killer character option for people who want to play being serial killers and roleplay it out, and you are genuinely concerned about a guy making a sardonic remark?

...I MEANNNNNN BE SCARED. IF YOU EVER SPEW SOME BASELESS ARGUMENT AGAINST THE UNMONK, THE SCARY SECRET WIZARD WILL COME FOR YOU.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:

Are you 100% aware you are in a forum for a role playing game in which there is an actual Serial Killer character option for people who want to play being serial killers and roleplay it out, and you are genuinely concerned about a guy making a sardonic remark?

...I MEANNNNNN BE SCARED. IF YOU EVER SPEW SOME BASELESS ARGUMENT AGAINST THE UNMONK, THE SCARY SECRET WIZARD WILL COME FOR YOU.

i think what's worse, is you made me look up the definition of sardonic, and I didn't even find the original quote that sardonic.

I mean it's barely cynical at all, and what were you mocking exactly?

now, I think this, that's right, THIS, comment is truly sardonic.


I always thought it sounded like some type of cheese.

(Also I was using it in the "grim mockery" definition, in that I haven't really murdered them as much as bored them to death with my counterarguments... but I'm glad you learnt a word <3)


Quote:


also it's a better martial artist, but not a monk.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not doubting you, I just don't see how the unchained monk is less monk-y.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Sah wrote:
Quote:


also it's a better martial artist, but not a monk.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not doubting you, I just don't see how the unchained monk is less monk-y.

it was mostly the always on diamond stuff, though upon further review, it was really just the feel of the focus of the class that's different.

It seems like you could do most of the stuff if you have the ki pool for it.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Use an Unchained Monk and not a CRB Monk. Use Dragon Style + Dragon Ferocity. Take the Flying Kick Style Strike. Use the Qinggong Power ki power to pick up Barkskin.

Everything else is gravy.

My opinion is the Unchained monk is inferior. Stick with CRB. Your saves will be better.

Max out Acrobatics and Perception in every way you can. Plan your feats for Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike). Your tactics should be tumbling through the rank and file to attack the spellcasters, archers, leaders, and other soft targets. You will also have good out of combat utility with acrobatic areas. That and maxing out Perception (Wisdom is your highest stat, right?) will make the party love you and the GM hate you.


If you are really interested, I can point out all things that are wrong in that last post U_____U

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