Is my monk doomed to be worse than the brawler?


Advice

51 to 90 of 90 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

yeah, looking at it, uMonk, only downside is a lower will wave and a over burdened ki pool. A normal monk for this reason is probably a better dip though uMonk is probably better for the long haul.


Lower Will save is a myth though.

It's like looking at an Alchemist and imagining it will have a higher Reflex save than a Fighter just because the Alchemist has good Reflex saves.


Alchies tend to also have good dexterity, useful for lobbing bombs and splash weapons.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Lower Will save is a myth though.

It's like looking at an Alchemist and imagining it will have a higher Reflex save than a Fighter just because the Alchemist has good Reflex saves.

it's usually less by 2 on average I'd say. getting higher in the end, still better than anything not wisdom based, but it is worse than a normal monk.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Ooh boy we are back into monk vs unchained monk. I don't think this debate is ever going to beettled for certain. If we leave out truly broken things that help one way more than the other (looking at you ascetic style) they come out about the same. It really will come down to play style and preference. The unchained monk is certainly easier to build and optimize though since it has fewer trap options and is more straight forward in accomplishing what a monk wants to do. To some that is better. But I personally prefer the approach of the core monk plus archetypes. I have never made a core monk that was outshined by an unchained monk in what it was trying to do, nor did the unchained version of the character get outshined.

Edit, dear lord my cell phones auto correct butchered this post. I think i fixed it all


I think for general purposes, Style Strikes and no penalties on flurry attacks wins fairly easily.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

They're roughly equivalent, and both are good for different things.

For example, I've found the UnMonk to be better offensively, and the Core Monk to be better defensively.


Mahtobedis wrote:
If we leave out truly broken things that help one way more than the other (looking at you ascetic style) they come out about the same.

Ascetic style "truly broken"? Say what?

@Ravingdork: IDK, Restoration as an SLA at 8th level (and still being able to pick up Ki Leech at lvl10) is kinda nice for defense.


Ascetic Style is not really broken as much as poorly edited. If you take it to grant only benefits related to feats, it's a very good feat but hardly broken.

The one unbalancing factor it may have is that it's cheaper to build for than unarmed strikes... but I pin that down on the fact that Amulets of Mighty Fists are overcosted.

An easy houserule is saying that Ascetic Style weapons must have ki focus to be used with style strikes.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Ascetic Style is not really broken as much as poorly edited. If you take it to grant only benefits related to feats, it's a very good feat but hardly broken.

The one unbalancing factor it may have is that it's cheaper to build for than unarmed strikes... but I pin that down on the fact that Amulets of Mighty Fists are overcosted.

An easy houserule is saying that Ascetic Style weapons must have ki focus to be used with style strikes.

Poorly edited is one of the definitions of broken. Clear meaNing is important.


That's the definition of exploitable. Broken to me is what, even with the most charitable mindset in the world, you cannot see a way for it to function without destroying all balance.


Not to toot my own horn, but Monk Unfettered is my base for monks now. It lends itself to people that want to emphasize the "monk" aspect and less the "brawler" aspect of the monk class.

(Site note: and Raving Nerd's starting stats on his monk are a viable build option for the unfettered monk.)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
johnlocke90 wrote:


Well they released Unchained Monk because of how bad the original monk was. Its not something thats contested.

No, it totally is contested. They released it to make it easier for new players and Pathfinder Society GMs and nerfed the monk in the process.

Quote:


Some of the archetypes attempted to make monk better as well, but they are clunkier. Going full unchained monk is much simpler.

Simpler is not better. Monks with a weak Will save is just wrong and always will be wrong.


darth_borehd wrote:
Simpler is not better. Monks with a weak Will save is just wrong and always will be wrong.

Mechanically, this is a huge myth. Core Monks do not have the breadth of stats to invest well in Wisdom, almost always traded away Still Mind with archetypes, and didn't have the feats to spend on Iron Will. Unchained Monks have less stat pressure and can afford better WIS, have extra feats for Iron Will, and do not need to trade away Still Mind to be viable.

In terms of flavor, it's silly to even consider it. What's more flavorful, a 10th level Monk with 12 WIS and a passable Will save just because he is a Monk... or a 10th level Monk that would normally have a poor Will save, but due to his own Wisdom, his training through feats and use of his class skills has achieved to steel his own mind? Both work, and neither is better than the other.


Secret Wizard wrote:
darth_borehd wrote:
Simpler is not better. Monks with a weak Will save is just wrong and always will be wrong.

Mechanically, this is a huge myth. Core Monks do not have the breadth of stats to invest well in Wisdom, almost always traded away Still Mind with archetypes, and didn't have the feats to spend on Iron Will. Unchained Monks have less stat pressure and can afford better WIS, have extra feats for Iron Will, and do not need to trade away Still Mind to be viable.

In terms of flavor, it's silly to even consider it. What's more flavorful, a 10th level Monk with 12 WIS and a passable Will save just because he is a Monk... or a 10th level Monk that would normally have a poor Will save, but due to his own Wisdom, his training through feats and use of his class skills has achieved to steel his own mind? Both work, and neither is better than the other.

If you are playing a monk with only 12 Wisdom, you are doing it wrong.


And so are you if you play a core monk with 17 starting WIS. But it's totally viable for the UnMonk.

Sovereign Court

Secret Wizard wrote:
And so are you if you play a core monk with 17 starting WIS. But it's totally viable for the UnMonk.

Though both are really better off with their highest stat being their attack stat - WIS secondary and DEX (if not attack stat) as tertiary.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
And so are you if you play a core monk with 17 starting WIS. But it's totally viable for the UnMonk.
Though both are really better off with their highest stat being their attack stat - WIS secondary and DEX (if not attack stat) as tertiary.

Which is why I like the sohei. They use normal armor. Sure, light, but they can start off with moderate dex and wis without being completely defenseless. I understand that you will want to switch to armorless later if you are focusing on AC (...and not grabbing brawling armor for the bonuses to unarmed). But when stats and mundane equipment alone determine your AC, it is nice to just use armor and not worry about it.

Anyway, I haven't kept up with unmonk. Why is it more viable for them to start with 17 starting wis? A quick glance shows the same 'wisdom to ac, and to the saves of a few abilities' mechanics as core monk. Is it just the changes to BAB and flurry?


Basically, 12 CON on an UnMonk is like having 16 CON on a CRB Monk. Therefore, a statline like:

S16+2 D14 C12 I10 W15+2 CH7

As a Dual Talent Human is extremely good for the UnMonk, and since you can pick up Weapon Focus at level 1 and otherwise have higher accuracy, you can use your +1 at level 4th to round off WIS to 18 neatly.

As a CRB Monk, I'd probably start off like

S14 D17+2 C14 I7 W14 CH7

And avoid Dual Talent not to further tax my lowered skill ranks, and to be able to pick up Weapon Finesse and Toughness at level 1, while positively dying for that level 4 +1 to DEX, while fitting in Weapon Focus and Pummeling Style on the way.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Secret Wizard wrote:

Basically, 12 CON on an UnMonk is like having 16 CON on a CRB Monk. Therefore, a statline like:

S16+2 D14 C12 I10 W15+2 CH7

As a Dual Talent Human is extremely good for the UnMonk, and since you can pick up Weapon Focus at level 1 and otherwise have higher accuracy, you can use your +1 at level 4th to round off WIS to 18 neatly.

As a CRB Monk, I'd probably start off like

S14 D17+2 C14 I7 W14 CH7

And avoid Dual Talent not to further tax my lowered skill ranks, and to be able to pick up Weapon Finesse and Toughness at level 1, while positively dying for that level 4 +1 to DEX, while fitting in Weapon Focus and Pummeling Style on the way.

Well, 16 at level 1. Most places I've seen are 'full first level, average every level afterwards'. I will grant you that it is close to 14, which is a bit of favor for MAD. But the dual talent thing is not too much of an argument (since core monks can do it to, and it is still a steep price for the human's free feat).

But overall.... I still prefer a core monk with sohei attached. It gives me similar AC at level 1 without the need for dumping. And I get to play str based while doing so.

You can get me to admit that unmonk is far superior to core monk alone... that isn't a hard bar to pass. You have to deal with the effectiveness of teh good monk archetypes though.

Dark Archive

darth_borehd wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:


Well they released Unchained Monk because of how bad the original monk was. Its not something thats contested.

No, it totally is contested. They released it to make it easier for new players and Pathfinder Society GMs and nerfed the monk in the process.

Quote:


Some of the archetypes attempted to make monk better as well, but they are clunkier. Going full unchained monk is much simpler.
Simpler is not better. Monks with a weak Will save is just wrong and always will be wrong.

I have to disagree with that quite strongly. The monk has had issues since 3.0. It had great mobility, but had to stand still to do decent damage. It was supposed to be a martial class, but had 3/4 bab and d8 hit dice without things like spellcasting to prop it up. It had reasonable defense, except for AC which is really important for a martial, but that doesn't win fights. It was also extremely MAD and very difficult to get good to hit and damage boosts (amulets of mighty fists are horrendously expensive). In short, it and the rogue were very weak for martials that were already fairly outclassed by spellcasters. At least the rogue could throw out buckets of dice of sneak attack damage under the right situations. The unchained monk was meant to fix these flaws so it was playable without awesome ability scores, a handful of archetypes, and exhaustive optimization.


Ok So I didn't read much past the first round of posts but here is my input.

Go STR as your Main stat, Con afterwards. You will be hit. The Idea is to hit them hard enough and fast enough to make your AC less of a concern. You can use your Monk bonus feats to pick up Deflect Arrows and have yourself a once a turn ranged attack negation. Covers having lower AC from distance.

WIS is nice...but you don't really need it too much. Considering how many stunning fists the Monk has per day you could honestly go for a lower DC since you can always flurry and attach Stunning Fists almost as an afterthought, nice if they fail the save, but the consistent damage is more important. Ki is also nice and having it is good, but with a 15 point buy, STR is your Reliable stat.

Power attack is a thing. You should consider using it whenever you can reliably hit. Shuriken, Flurry and Deadly Aim = your only real ranged option 1D2+9 = win! I am assuming your using Core only, so I will refrain from suggesting Dragon Style...If you do have access though, Dragon Style and Power Attack will eat through most DR.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'd actually argue for Weapon Focus over power attack for a Monk period unless UnMonk and two handing. If unarmed it's not really a contest between the two given unarmed needs style feats, and most of them rely on hitting for their fun effects. Even Jabbing style, which still confounds me with its Power Attack pre-req. Hell if you have the space, take both.


I always find it bizarre that such a cool class like the monk has somehow ended up uncool...!


I've played an unchained monk (as my first character) and I definitely agree that STR>WIS. It sounds like you'd rather be the kung-fu master monk than a wise teacher kind of monk (although there is an archetype for that) and the unchained monk is much better at being the monk you want.

Also, while a lot of people recommend Dragon Style (and it is very good for a high strength build), I enjoyed Jabbing style. It takes advantage of the fact that you get a lot of attacks, gives you some extra mobility, and there's something very satisfying about rolling huge numbers of d6s on melee attack. Style feats are definitely nice to have, so check them out.

The one thing I will say is that unchained monk full attacks take a while, due to all the optional extras. Be very careful when considering getting things that can be activated with a swift action. You only get 1 per round, so a lot of my abilities never got used.


doc roc wrote:
I always find it bizarre that such a cool class like the monk has somehow ended up uncool...!

I can think of fewer things cooler than a complete lush of Dwarven Sensei giving advice mid combat as well as he can guzzle tankards of spirits in seconds.

There's an idea. Drunken Master Sensei Dwarf. Lingering Performance at level 1 and take the Tiger Style feats for damage. Give allies bark skin and bardic bonuses while doing very good damage for a 3/4 BAB character. The HP saved and enemies faster killed thanks you will be something a Brawler cannot compete with. Also, the saves, man. The saves.


Frosty Ace wrote:
I'd actually argue for Weapon Focus over power attack for a Monk period unless UnMonk and two handing.

I'd argue the opposite. Power attacks is one of the mechanical benefits for a monk.

Unlike everyone just about everyone else, core monks do not have offhands, which means even unarmed or with a cestus they are able to get more power attack than everyone else since they do not have offhand penalties. That is x2 total power attack across their full attack. And when 2 handing, they can get x3 across their attacks.

Power attack is the thing that salvages their damage compared to unmonks.

Of course, my concerns might be a bit skewed in regards to when you aren't flurrying (when core monk is at its weakest). I would either be using a sohei (which gets bonuses that makes it acceptible even when doing standard action attacks) or some maneuver based arhcetype which could... just do a maneuver when they have to move, which would usually add more to the fight than just their single weak plink of an attack.


lemeres wrote:
Unlike everyone just about everyone else, core monks do not have offhands (...)

Same is true for UnMonk.

The value of Power Attack is not only dependent on the multiplier, but also on your hit chance. If that's too low, PA is bad.


Derklord wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Unlike everyone just about everyone else, core monks do not have offhands (...)

Same is true for UnMonk.

The value of Power Attack is not only dependent on the multiplier, but also on your hit chance. If that's too low, PA is bad.

Though I will say Tiger Pounce makes PA an absolute wonder of a feat. On the flip side, Jabbing Style makes its use extremely questionable.

It's case by case, but I stand by what I said. It's repeatedly said a Monk's biggest weakness is no built in bonuses to attack and damage (It's why Unchained flurry is so good given its huge bonus to accuracy overall). (Style) feats can help with the latter immensely, but the former is very rare.


Jabbing style definitely makes you never want to power attack. It's not worth losing that 5th attack! The damage die are insane!


darth_borehd wrote:
If you are playing a monk with only 12 Wisdom, you are doing it wrong.

Indeed. Can't have any BADWRONGFUN, even at tables I'm never playing at.

darth_borehd wrote:
Simpler is not better.

Actually, it is. Especially regarding the Monk and Unchained Monk. Just take this OP as an example.

Sovereign Court

Frosty Ace wrote:


There's an idea. Drunken Master Sensei Dwarf. Lingering Performance at level 1 and take the Tiger Style feats for damage. Give allies bark skin and bardic bonuses while doing very good damage for a 3/4 BAB character. The HP saved and enemies faster killed thanks you will be something a Brawler cannot compete with. Also, the saves, man. The saves.

Dwarf Sensei/Drunken Masters are a pretty awesome build. You forgot about one of the best things - at 10+ you can just start giving the whole group True Strike every round. It gets super crazy if your buddies are even halfway decent with combat maneuvers and use their first attack on them most rounds.

It's a bit unclear if you can have the whole party use Dragon Breath etc. on your turn.


Rub-Eta wrote:
darth_borehd wrote:
Simpler is not better.
Actually, it is. Especially regarding the Monk and Unchained Monk. Just take this OP as an example.

Only if simplicity is your primary goal. You're a heck of a lot more complicated than a smallpox virus, but I for one am extremely happy to see smallpox exterminated and humanity not.

And, really, if you want simple you can't beat Warrior. Just the minimum number of feat slots, the minimum number of skill points, no division of multiplication to get BAB from class level, and proficiency in all armor and martial weapons with no other features. And yet you're not suggesting the OP should switch to a warrior. Clearly you know deep down that darth_borehd is right.


Simpler is simpler. Better is better. These are different things, unless all you care for is simplicity. Personally, I find it to be one of the appealing points of a good build, but it is not the biggest factor.

The UMonk is better in almost every way than the core monk. The save is a sore sticking point for me, but almost everything else is better if you want your monk to actually be good at what the class so to say advertises.


What books are you allowed to use?


Atarlost wrote:
Only if simplicity is your primary goal. You're a heck of a lot more complicated than a smallpox virus, but I for one am extremely happy to see smallpox exterminated and humanity not.

Please understand that I didn't say "simpler is better at all cost"! Only an idiot would proclaim that.

The Shaman wrote:
Simpler is simpler. Better is better. These are different things, unless all you care for is simplicity.

Not too different.

Simplicity can come at a cost of the design. But complexity is always its' own cost in the design.

EDIT: Great example, again, is the Monk, Unchained Monk and the Brawler.
The regular Monk can not keep on-par with the Brawler unless you delve into very complicated builds, lots of research required. This is the cost of complexity.
The Unchained Monk, however, can keep on-par with the Brawler without much complication at all. This simplicity makes it better. The downsides to the Unchained Monk (poor Will save, etc.) is not at the cost of this simplicity.


Sir Jerden wrote:
Jabbing style definitely makes you never want to power attack. It's not worth losing that 5th attack! The damage die are insane!

That's not actually true. Again, it all depends on your hit chance. For Jabbing Style, you need to be overhitcapped (i.e. highest attack roll ≥ target AC-1) for PA to be worth it. The sample 12th level Jabbing Style Monk I made for another thread a while ago is overhitcapped by 1 against average CR 12 enemies and his damage does increasy with Power Attack... by 1.8 DPR. Against targets with lower AC, Power Attack would be worthwhile.

@Frosty Ace: I always wanted to have a monk with Crane Style, Tiger Pounce, and Combat Style Master. On his turn, Tiger Style for Power Attack with malus transfered to AC (the first sentence of Crane Style should work even if not in that style), and on the opponent's turns, PA malus on Attack Rolls and the defense boni from Crane Style, Wing, and Riposte.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Derklord wrote:
...his damage does increasy with Power Attack... by 1.8 DPR.

That doesn't seem like it would be worth the feat investment to me.


Frosty Ace wrote:
Derklord wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Unlike everyone just about everyone else, core monks do not have offhands (...)

Same is true for UnMonk.

The value of Power Attack is not only dependent on the multiplier, but also on your hit chance. If that's too low, PA is bad.

Though I will say Tiger Pounce makes PA an absolute wonder of a feat. On the flip side, Jabbing Style makes its use extremely questionable.

It's case by case, but I stand by what I said. It's repeatedly said a Monk's biggest weakness is no built in bonuses to attack and damage (It's why Unchained flurry is so good given its huge bonus to accuracy overall). (Style) feats can help with the latter immensely, but the former is very rare.

Well, I did say that I assumed sohei when I think 'a monk meant to hit things'. Their bonuses can make them match an unmonk in standard attacks, and suprass them in flurries even with the TWF penalty. So there are few worries there about attack bonuses.

I know that unmonks have similar advantages. I am saying that core monks are already behind on the str bonus (x2 rather than x3 across the whole flurry)... but I view it as 'why make the gap even bigger for damage?'


Ravingdork wrote:
Derklord wrote:
...his damage does increasy with Power Attack... by 1.8 DPR.
That doesn't seem like it would be worth the feat investment to me.

Indeed. But as Power Attack is a prerequisite of Jabbing Master, the question is not whether to take PA, but whether to use it. A mere 1.1% average DPR increase would probably not be worth the increase in deviation, if you're fighting mooks or something with more relative HP than AC, using it is probably worthwile.

51 to 90 of 90 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Is my monk doomed to be worse than the brawler? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.