That really depends on personal interpretation. Now, I think that it means you stop aging altogether, so you don't need to worry about i.
I can also see the viewpoint that it doesn't actually extend your lifespan, it just makes you young until the point where you were destined to die. This sounds like your group's interpretation.
The alchemist has discovered a cure for aging...
While this is somewhat vague, I believe this part of the discovery points to the intent.
He hasn't discovered a cure for the effects of aging, he has discovered a cure for aging. He no longer ages, which means that he is truly immortal.
Edit: also, that^. The monk and druid versions both specify that the monk and/or druid die once their time is up. The alchemist and wizard versions, however, do not.
The Wizard Arcane Discovery, like the Alchemist one, has no text saying that you die when your time is up (unlike the Druid and Monk near-equivalents), so it also gives you immunity to death by old age, much to the relief of the Runelords.
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The alchemist has discovered a cure for aging...While this is somewhat vague, I believe this part of the discovery points to the intent.
He hasn't discovered a cure for the effects of aging, he has discovered a cure for aging. He no longer ages, which means that he is truly immortal.
No no, not immortal. He can still die, just not from aging.
Which is for the better.There is no greater curse than to be truly immortal.
Stuck forever.
Unless, you know, time itself, or at least its caretakers, put a sword through the alchemist's heart.
Immortality does a funny thing to attract extraplanar forces.
Notice any difference in the wording?
A wizard's immortality is just that. The chance to live forever. With appropriate secondary precautions, a wizard becomes effectively unkillable.Correct.
Unless, you know, time itself, or at least its caretakers, put a sword through the alchemist's heart.
Immortality does a funny thing to attract extraplanar forces.
Most of which have a similar type of immortality.
Yeah, it's interesting. Making yourself immortal really upsets Pharasma and Inevitables. It's also like outsiders don't want you stealing their shtick.
While monk and druid get Timeless Body late (level 17 respective 15), wizard and alchemist get their version even later (level 20). This alone is a strong pointer to a higher power level - capstones are supposed to be significantly more powerful than high level abilities.
Further, if they would simply get Timeless Body minus previous penalties, Paizo likely would have called it that way...
While monk and druid get Timeless Body late (level 17 respective 15), wizard and alchemist get their version even later (level 20). This alone is a strong pointer to a higher power level - capstones are supposed to be significantly more powerful than high level abilities.
Further, if they would simply get Timeless Body minus previous penalties, Paizo likely would have called it that way...
Oracle of Time capstone explicitly states they cannot die of old age.
The Wizard Arcane Discovery, like the Alchemist one, has no text saying that you die when your time is up (unlike the Druid and Monk near-equivalents), so it also gives you immunity to death by old age, much to the relief of the Runelords.
The wizard one specifically is called "Immortality" not "Eternal Youth." meaning you don't die of natural causes. ever.
I'm curious how often this actually comes up anyway. Do a lot of people play generational campaigns? When you hit 20, your career/campaign is pretty much over, so who cares if your character gets to live forever ever after when it's done.
I'm curious how often this actually comes up anyway. Do a lot of people play generational campaigns? When you hit 20, your career/campaign is pretty much over, so who cares if your character gets to live forever ever after when it's done.
Yea. I've only ever used immortality in a high level game for story purposes. or for things like timeless demiplanes. Wouldn't want to die of old age after leaving it for the first time in a millennia.
Edit: seems to be one of those things that you could allow earlier in the game and it would have absolutely no impact. Of course if every NPC and their mother had access to immortality I can see how that would break a game world.
Ohhh. Game idea. Immortality somehow became cheap and easy. However, immortals are by their nature sterile. The humanoid races start to become rarer and rarer till eventually there are only a few survivors.
The argument here is that the Eternal Youth grand discovery (and the Immortality wizard discovery) only mention removing penalties to ability scores and do not mention removing your maximum age or stopping your aging in their benefit text.
As Snowlilly mentioned, contrast with the Time Oracle final revelation which says you can't die of old age or the Living Monolith's Ageless Stone which says you cease aging.
So by a strict reading, one can argue that the former two don't give you the abilities the latter two do. It's probably not intended, but it's also something they've never bothered to fix either.
Why would outsiders even care if you can't die of old age. Statistically, something is going to kill you someday, regardless.
Because mortals die. That is the idea being enforced.
Because mortals die. That is the idea being enforced.
Well if you take a feat called immortality you're kind of by definition not a mortal anymore. Seems fine.
I'm curious how often this actually comes up anyway. Do a lot of people play generational campaigns? When you hit 20, your career/campaign is pretty much over, so who cares if your character gets to live forever ever after when it's done.
I've always viewed it as flavor.
In Feng Shui, immortality was a minor fluff item that was tacked onto my Magic Cop when he picked up healing magics. In other systems I've played, it was a low point-cost ability available at character creation.
Because mortals die. That is the idea being enforced.
But they aren't immune to death. Just getting old and dieing that way. Something would eventually kill them. Why would anyone enforce getting old?
As Snowlilly mentioned, contrast with the Time Oracle final revelation which says you can't die of old age or the Living Monolith's Ageless Stone which says you cease aging.
So by a strict reading, one can argue that the former two don't give you the abilities the latter two do. It's probably not intended, but it's also something they've never bothered to fix either.
There are three different ways age related abilities are worded:
- Monks and Druids explicitly state the character still dies at his appointed time.
- Time Oracles and Monoliths explicitly state the character does not die as result of age.
- Alchemists and Wizards are stated to cease aging with no explicit statement in either direction.
A developer statement was linked confirming wizards and alchemist with Eternal Youth/Immortality do not die of old age.
A wizard's Immortality is (Ex). Nothing shuts it off. (Well, except for massive damage. That's what clones are for.)
Well if you take a feat called immortality you're kind of by definition not a mortal anymore. Seems fine.Because mortals die. That is the idea being enforced.
You, in particular, aren't a mortal anymore. But you are still supposed to be. That's what bothers them.
You are attempting to cheat the death that comes naturally to members of your species, and they hate that. It doesn't care whether you are gaining it through cures for aging, or through your oracle mystery, or by becoming some sort of sentient undead.
In theory, even those that ascend to godhood are frowned upon, but it's a lot harder for them to do anything about that.
But why do they hate it? It doesn't make any sense. Maybe if they were a deity of aging or something, but otherwise, you are still mortal. You will still die. The only thing that changed was the date.
Well if you take a feat called immortality you're kind of by definition not a mortal anymore. Seems fine.Because mortals die. That is the idea being enforced.
Well no, you are not actually immortal. You are postponing your natural death by means not natural to you. Very chaotic people would obviously question why can't individuals just decide when they want to end their existence instead of this premeditated decision, but mortals die.
In theory, even those that ascend to godhood are frowned upon, but it's a lot harder for them to do anything about that.
It's not a whole lot easier to do anything about a 20th level wizard.
Most outsiders that would care won't expend that level of effort/resources unless with wizard is blatantly tampering.
The differences between an immortal wizard tugging on the strands of fate and a god are mostly that of scale.
Wasn't there an inevitable in 3.5 that hunted people trying to become gods?
But why do they hate it? It doesn't make any sense. Maybe if they were a deity of aging or something, but otherwise, you are still mortal. You will still die. The only thing that changed was the date.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
Wasn't there an inevitable in 3.5 that hunted people trying to become gods?
The Mantis God serves this function in Golarion.
But why do they hate it? It doesn't make any sense. Maybe if they were a deity of aging or something, but otherwise, you are still mortal. You will still die. The only thing that changed was the date.
As written, they hate even people who have done nothing whatsoever to actually extend their natural lives, but have done something extraordinary to try to stay alive in the face of death. The example given was a magistrate who kills the population of an entire town in order to stay alive, so in many ways they are not above punishing people who only increase their lifespans a finite amount rather than indefinitely.
where is that developer statement at?
A developer statement was linked confirming wizards and alchemist with Eternal Youth/Immortality do not die of old age.
It's linked and quoted up towards the top of the thread.
SKR was the rules guy at the time of the original post.
the fact that immortality and eternal youth are attainable means that they are natural means. just very hard to achieve, natural means. undeath and life leaches (beings that drain the life force from everything about them leaving only death in their wake) would be unnatural means one is linked to evil and the other is theft.
Natural: existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind
Wizard discoveries do not exist in nature; they are careful applications and combinations of magic that do not occur normally. Formulas of eternal youth do not exist in nature; they are a specially formulated, specially treated groups of materials and chemicals that do not occur normally. They are every bit as unnatural as undead.
Being difficult to achieve does not make it natural.
Why would outsiders even care if you can't die of old age. Statistically, something is going to kill you someday, regardless.
But why do they hate it? It doesn't make any sense. Maybe if they were a deity of aging or something, but otherwise, you are still mortal. You will still die. The only thing that changed was the date.
Because they're jerks, who don't want the competition.
eternal youth means forever young right? if that's the case then why is it that my DM and fellow players tell me adamantly that even with with this discovery the pc will die of old age when they reach that amount of years. my argument is that with this discovery you will not age at all thus never gain the negatives from gaining that amount of years.
so who has it wrong will the pc live forever or will he die when his age reaches its maximum lifespan?
A lot of that comes from 3.5 where while a class mechanic may save you from the Grim Reaper due to age, Heebee Jeebies will come and take you away, or if you're an Elf, you'll get an irresistiable urge to "take Sea to the West" or somesuch.
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On the rules argument:
I'd say that the Monk and Druid versions going out of their way to say 'you still die when your time is up' strongly implies that any ability titled 'immortality' or the like that doesn't say that explicitly really does make you never die of old age. Especially as a 20th level capstone.
If the opinions of the people at Paizo matter (and I think they should) James Jacobs has explicitly noted that Razimir is specifically level 19 instead of level 20 so he can be mortal and die of old age (since at 20th, he could get the Discovery and no longer age). He's working very hard on hitting 20th to get the immortality before his time is up.
Because you're really messing with their schedule. I bet there are a bunch of angry Inevitables stuck in cubicles with mountains of fate-related paperwork, a flood of angry calls from emancipated bound devils who want to flay your wizardly soul for all eternity, and a rash of wizard-hunting rogue-related incidents that would never have happened if you died on time. You're that one guy who insists on getting into the elevator or on the train, even when it's jam-packed and you're the last one there.Why would outsiders even care if you can't die of old age. Statistically, something is going to kill you someday, regardless.But why do they hate it? It doesn't make any sense. Maybe if they were a deity of aging or something, but otherwise, you are still mortal. You will still die. The only thing that changed was the date.Because they're jerks, who don't want the competition.
In fairness, Death's Heretic (and a few other things) makes it pretty clear that Pharasma and the Inevitables in question only start caring a few centuries down the line, and even then mostly only under certain circumstances. It's not living a long time they really object to, but the possibility of someone never dying. A few extra centuries is a rounding error. A few extra millennia is starting to look suspiciously like you're aiming for eternity.
In fairness, Death's Heretic (and a few other things) makes it pretty clear that Pharasma and the Inevitables in question only start caring a few centuries down the line, and even then mostly only under certain circumstances. It's not living a long time they really object to, but the possibility of someone never dying. A few extra centuries is...
There are a few Runelords, and ex-Runelords, that would like to say hello :)
Some of them have managed to persist for more than ten thousand years without the Immortality discovery.
Because you're really messing with their schedule. I bet there are a bunch of angry Inevitables stuck in cubicles with mountains of fate-related paperwork, a flood of angry calls from emancipated bound devils who want to flay your wizardly soul for all eternity, and a rash of wizard-hunting rogue-related incidents that would never have happened if you died on time. You're that one guy who insists on getting into the elevator or on the train, even when it's jam-packed and you're the last one there.
I can't help but be reminded of Rincewind, whose uncanny ability to thwart Death and scrape out of situations he was fated to die in has earned him no small amount of frustration from the Grim Reaper.
I recall it said that in the hall of hourglasses, in which every person that exists has an hourglass and for which running out of sand means their time has come, whether through natural or unnatural causes, the sand in Rincewind's hourglass behaves erratically, at times flowing backwards.
Because you're really messing with their schedule. I bet there are a bunch of angry Inevitables stuck in cubicles with mountains of fate-related paperwork, a flood of angry calls from emancipated bound devils who want to flay your wizardly soul for all eternity, and a rash of wizard-hunting rogue-related incidents that would never have happened if you died on time. You're that one guy who insists on getting into the elevator or on the train, even when it's jam-packed and you're the last one there.I can't help but be reminded of Rincewind, whose uncanny ability to thwart Death and scrape out of situations he was fated to die in has earned him no small amount of frustration from the Grim Reaper.
I recall it said that in the hall of hourglasses, in which every person that exists has an hourglass and for which running out of sand means their time has come, whether through natural or unnatural causes, the sand in Rincewind's hourglass behaves erratically, at times flowing backwards.
NOT ANOTHER NEAR RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE!
As I recall, Rincewind's hourglass is itself a twisted maze, making it difficult for even Death to tell in which direction the sand flows.
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The Wizard Arcane Discovery, like the Alchemist one, has no text saying that you die when your time is up (unlike the Druid and Monk near-equivalents), so it also gives you immunity to death by old age, much to the relief of the Runelords.
Wow, that's great.
Because you can become impotent to the point you are unable to lift a finger, yet not die and suffer eternally.In theory you could die from thirst or hunger, yet you definitely have a ring for that at this point.
way to go !
The Wizard Arcane Discovery, like the Alchemist one, has no text saying that you die when your time is up (unlike the Druid and Monk near-equivalents), so it also gives you immunity to death by old age, much to the relief of the Runelords.
Wow, that's great.
Because you can become impotent to the point you are unable to lift a finger, yet not die and suffer eternally.
In theory you could die from thirst or hunger, yet you definitely have a ring for that at this point.way to go !
Nope.
"...from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time."
But your age-related loss of function still remains- while you suffer no physical ability penalties, you do retain all other effects of aging. Such as impotence.
No?
In Pathfinder, the only downside to aging is the physical penalties.
You want impotence rules, perhaps you should try playing F.A.T.A.L.
So we have super-virile hundred year old wizards. Great.
(Also, one can definitely say that impotency is a penalty to a physical ability.)