silverrey's page

Thank you very much. That is what I thought but I was hoping I was wrong.

I think I already know the answer to this but I just wanted to double check... Can "Dark Elementalist" and "Kinetic Knight" be taken together? "Dark Studies" alters the skills by adding to the available list and "Courtly" replaces 2 skills. Neither alter the same skills but they both alter the skill list.

Related: Can "Blood Kineticist" and "Kinetic Knight" be taken together?

With Paths of the Righteous you also get to add glaives to list. If you want the viking vib you can call it an Atgeir or Lochaber axe.

... I think I want to make this now. lol

(Sorry if this is a double post. Weird posting issue.)

With Paths of the Righteous you also get to add glaives to list. If you want the viking vib you can call it an Atgeir or Lochaber axe.

... I think I want to make this now. lol

The "Iomedaean Enforcer" from Divine Anthology actually flows right into becoming a Hellknight very well. It gives the more Lawful flavor without really loosing anything. It also adds a bit more fluff to the combination which can be nice as well.

After a busy week I have returned and I have a rather important question, what exactly would this guy's motives be to go adventuring? Does he believe being an adventurer might lead him to accumulation of enough capital in order to pursue other business or is he doing this because he is down on his luck and is desperate for a cash infusion?

Might not even consider it "adventuring". He could easily just consider it aggressive marketing, trade route building, and reclaiming lost wealth... With a bit of competition removal as an added bonus. lol

Also, who are you to judge? Maybe I want to play a dethroned king shoved into a rogue's body. That'd be an awesome background.

By the same token new character in the old body would give a ready made reason for following the group.

... Now I kind of want to roll a character where the mental and physical stats don't match and have it be due to them having the wrong body...

Wishcrafter or Impossible bloodline can really up the fact that the fictional butler is always breaking the laws of reality to be/have exactly what their master needs.

The other obvious choice would be a Vigilante. Doesn't truly hide the fact that he can wipe the floor with everyone in the room but even those who are close to them forget what they can do more often than not.

Something that you might also do if you have time and energy is draw/print your main areas out so that the players can see the area instead of relying fully on being told about it. The "If the GM described it it is important and if not it can be ignored" is a hard mindset to break for some. Making it so that the players are looking and searching the environment alongside the characters can help pull the players more fully into the world/story you create.

Kahel Stormbender wrote:

Course, a helm of alignment reversal would only work if the GM remembers that cursed items don't actually identify as the cursed item. Nobody would put on an amulet of arrow attraction if they knew just what it is. Nor would many put on a ring of cannibalism if it was easy to tell it's that, and not a ring of sustenance.

You could force him to put it on. Or your alchemist could force him to drink an alignment changing extract.

That could be an interesting "trap". When you walk through the door a Helm of Alignment Reversal falls on your head. lol

Could do a damaged Song of Extinction (Music Box). Have it so that it can only play X number of times but the PCs don't know it. Very cinematic and deadly but so long as none of the PCs are bards that can learn it while they are in the middle of it then once the music box breaks you don't need to worry about balance anymore.

*nods*

And yet people do go to war with them, instead of trapping their own souls or committing mass sucicide out of fear.

Most only "succeed" by either being far enough away that they lose interest, being small enough that they don't care, or by reaching a stalemate. With most of the stalemates involving divine or near divine assistance.

Chelix doesn't have much of a history of losing wars. Their loses turn into cold wars waiting for someone to blink. They are technically at war with half the world and yet still have stable borders and are a major power.

Edit: Even with a crusade overflowing with divine assistance attacking them and causing more damage than had been done in ages the rest of the major powers are STILL to scared of Chelix winning and coming for revenge for them to strike. That alone says that you want an amazing trump card going into a fight with them.

silverrey wrote:

Rysky wrote:

silverrey wrote:

Rysky wrote:

And you protect your own with Guillotines...

Would you prefer the longsword through the gut?

War isn't pretty. Even less so when you are the little dog in the fight going up against a big well trained warhound. MAD is a tactic that only because no one likes it.

Seeing as how I don't worship Devils? Yep.

Again, it calls out regularly that you don't have to. All that is needed is that the guy that kills you does and takes a few moments to kill you in a certain way. The who gets your soul equation in Golarion is VERY skewed toward the Fiends.

If you're that scared of what someone else might do to you I can see why the Final Blades appeal to you so much.

lol If I am going to go punch the head priest of a vindictive faith in the nose and not be able to finish the job I think I would have reason the be afraid. lol

These are the same people who view torture as a pleasurable pastime during peace. I doubt they are much nicer to POWs.

silverrey wrote:

Rysky wrote:

And you protect your own with Guillotines...

Would you prefer the longsword through the gut?

War isn't pretty. Even less so when you are the little dog in the fight going up against a big well trained warhound. MAD is a tactic that only because no one likes it.

Seeing as how I don't worship Devils? Yep.

Again, it calls out regularly that you don't have to. All that is needed is that the guy that kills you does and takes a few moments to kill you in a certain way. The who gets your soul equation in Golarion is VERY skewed toward the Fiends.

And you protect your own with Guillotines...

Would you prefer the longsword through the gut?

War isn't pretty. Even less so when you are the little dog in the fight going up against a big well trained warhound. MAD is a tactic that only because no one likes it.

silverrey wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Uh, yeah, only certain 16th+ level characters are privy to how to free trapped souls. That ain't right.

Not to mention it's completely impractical for what you're suggesting they were for. It takes years to transform evil souls into Devils. They weren't doing it to give themselves an edge in the revolution, they did it because they were insane and spiteful.

Those are the same people who would be using them and all you would need is one to tell how and the secret is out.

Who said you need them to be turned into devils? Moloch literally uses souls as fuel for his war engines and doesn't require them to be his worshipers as his followers can sacrifice someone in his name and into the fires they go. For a more direct route the devils can just let their enemies see what they are doing to the souls of the loved ones as psychological warfare. Devils are almost as creative as daemons when it comes to what they can do with a soul. Turning them into other devils is the least of their options.

Except no one has told that secret, and none of the Gray Gardeners will.

That applies to ALL Fiends. What are you suggesting, just soul trap everyone?

If you were directly fighting them it would be a good way to protect your own. I know I would prefer to spend a few years in soul bind Limbo as oppose to being at the mercy of the devil whose plans I messed up. In most fights it would be unnecessary and overkill but when you are actively fighting Fiends? Yeah I would feel better with a safety net.

Uh, yeah, only certain 16th+ level characters are privy to how to free trapped souls. That ain't right.

Not to mention it's completely impractical for what you're suggesting they were for. It takes years to transform evil souls into Devils. They weren't doing it to give themselves an edge in the revolution, they did it because they were insane and spiteful.

Those are the same people who would be using them and all you would need is one to tell how and the secret is out.

Who said you need them to be turned into devils? Moloch literally uses souls as fuel for his war engines and doesn't require them to be his worshipers as his followers can sacrifice someone in his name and into the fires they go. For a more direct route the devils can just let their enemies see what they are doing to the souls of the loved ones as psychological warfare. Devils are almost as creative as daemons when it comes to what they can do with a soul. Turning them into other devils is the least of their options.

Edit: For that matter it might not have originally been a secret only for the Gray Gardeners. The council that commissioned the blades probably all knew the way to release the souls too, but seeing as at least one is currently inside of a Final Blade it doesn't seem things went well for them.

silverrey wrote:

Rysky wrote:

silverrey wrote:

Rysky wrote:

They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.

Which would be while they were still fighting Chelix and before "when it became more about chaos and vengeance". That is where I am curious where she drew the line.

The moment they came up with the Final Blades is when it became more about chaos and vengeance rather than fighting Cheliax, even though they were still fighting Cheliax. The punishment became more important than the freedom.

In a world where your opponent can literally use the souls of the fallen as a weapon against you it makes sense to have a way to stop them from doing so. The souls can also be released from the blades at anytime so from a design point of view you could hold them until the war is over and then release them when it is safe to do so. The Final Blades themselves are a nasty weapon but aren't Evil or even cruel in and of themselves. Hell, a guillotine chop is more humane than a sword cut or knife stab. It is messy but very quick.

Edit: Now that I think of it Damerrich himself actually uses something very similar to the Final Blades. In his entry it says that the stone that he executes enemies on stops them from returning to the plane they came from so that they can't return.

By that logic why doesn't everyone use soul binding to stop their enemies? And no, the souls can't be freed at any time. The blades have to be destroyed to free them. And as Minor Artifacts that ain't easy.

Huh, where'd you read that? I didn't see anything in his Chronicle of the Righteous article.

It is in the locations under Red Rotunda (or whatever it's name is) it says that it is where he executes Demon Lords and other high power Evils. As to the Final Blades... "In addition, at 10th level, a Gray Gardener receives initiation in the secret rituals that can release a soul from a final blade." They can release them at anytime. They just don't normally.

silverrey wrote:

Rysky wrote:

They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.

Which would be while they were still fighting Chelix and before "when it became more about chaos and vengeance". That is where I am curious where she drew the line.

The moment they came up with the Final Blades is when it became more about chaos and vengeance rather than fighting Cheliax, even though they were still fighting Cheliax. The punishment became more important than the freedom.

In a world where your opponent can literally use the souls of the fallen as a weapon against you it makes sense to have a way to stop them from doing so. The souls can also be released from the blades at anytime so from a design point of view you could hold them until the war is over and then release them when it is safe to do so. The Final Blades themselves are a nasty weapon but aren't Evil or even cruel in and of themselves. Hell, a guillotine chop is more humane than a sword cut or knife stab. It is messy but very quick.

Edit: Now that I think of it Damerrich himself actually uses something very similar to the Final Blades. In his entry it says that the stone that he executes enemies on stops them from returning to the plane they came from so that they can't return.

They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.

Which would be while they were still fighting Chelix and before "when it became more about chaos and vengeance". That is where I am curious where she drew the line.

Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.

Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich

Back on topic since I derailed it: As with all things involving Paladins doing anything even a little gray I would talk to your GM and give them a summary of what you are wanting to do and why. Mechanically I think you are good but I can see fluff killing you.

Um, no, it says "when it became more about chaos and vengeance", so probably when they started to use the Blades, or even when they started using the executions is when Milani and her followers turned on them.

And a change like that definitely isn't locked into "degrees", especially with the insanity of Galt.

The Final Blades were commissioned in the first 2 years of the Red Revolution and in use within 5 years. That is a pretty quick rise and fall. By the wording of it it sounds like the Final Blades were in use while they were still fighting Chelix...

"...Margaery San Trayne created the final blades, which were capable of capturing the souls of the executed, thus preventing any resurrection. Trayne's secondary concern was that the final blades would prevent the souls from falling into the hands of any Chelish devils."

See my just now previous post :3

It wasn't a rude surprise for her followers at all, she didn't pull the rug out from under them. When it was against Cheliax they were for it, when it became hateful paranoid madness they went against it.

But a change like that is always a matter of degrees, more so when your enemy can literally call the masters of lies and trickery to their aid. If the Grey Gardeners and the Final Blades were used to kill her herald then they would have been around/being made while she was still backing them.

I personally don't like Milani (if you light the fuse you are responsible for the explosion) but I am willing to admit I was wrong about her. No I am more curious.

silverrey wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Also, she's a full on Goddess, not a demigod.

I thought she was in the same power category as the Empyreal Lords?

*nope*

Also Inner Sea Faiths has this to say (as QuidEst pointed out) "However, Milani’s church does not celebrate All Kings Day, for Milani hates the endless violence wrought by Galt’s Red Revolution."

Fair enough. I do wonder how long ago she pulled her support from them? I can see that as a bit of a rude surprise for her followers to get the call to start a revolution and then get told that she no longer supports it within a few years of each other.

Also, she's a full on Goddess, not a demigod.

I thought she was in the same power category as the Empyreal Lords?

silverrey wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.

The funny thing though is that that whole mess is still supported by a (Chaotic) Good Demi-Goddess who has the full support of the main Lawful Good Goddess... I fully agree that it is a mess where I can't imagine Good being the driving force but in world that seems to be the case.

To my knowledge Milani and Iomedae absolutely detest the Eternal Revolution, where did you read that they support it?

It is stated that Galt is one of her major centers of worship and that her herald was a member of the Red Revolution up until shortly before her death. As it only started about 50 years ago Milani backed it officially until not to long ago if she no longer supports it.

I want to say that it was in Hell's Rebels (specifically in the cleric's entry) that it said she was still going strong with members of the Red Revolution but I don't have the book with me to double check so I might be wrong.

I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.

The funny thing though is that that whole mess is still supported by a (Chaotic) Good Demi-Goddess who has the full support of the main Lawful Good Goddess... I fully agree that it is a mess where I can't imagine Good being the driving force but in world that seems to be the case.

Outside of the Tales novels it's sprinkled here and there throughout all the books involving them.

What did you think they did with all the bodies? And they don't keep things dead, they indiscriminately execute and seal souls in the guillotines. They like to make sure the souls stay trapped and unable to head to the afterlife.

I think this is where they (and I) get the idea that they want things to stay dead.

True Death (Su)

At 10th level, anyone slain by a Gray Gardener becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Attempts to use raise dead or similar magic to resurrect such a creature require a successful DC 25 caster level check, or the spell fails and any material components are wasted.

Oath Against Grotesquery wait your blind........meaning you can't tell the pretty people from the evil ugly people. but then if only you could walk around with detect evil on constantly.

Actually that could work really well. Going the whole beautiful/ugly soul route. It would also fit the near immunity to illusions.

"I can't see the mask you are showing the world. All I see is what you truly look like."

So how do you all handle making the Necrocraft scale up or do you? I am actually really interested in using one as my Necromancer but they seem a bit lackluster right out of the box.

I know that if two Archetype touch the same ability they can't be used together but I was wondering if that hold true when they both touch an optional part of a class?

For example: Seal-Breaker and Tyrant archetypes both effect an antipaladin's fiendish boon. They even both affect the mount choice. Would you be able to stack them if you chose the bonded weapon option since neither of the archetypes effect that part of fiendish boon or would the fact that they both effect fiendish boon, period, take precedence?

The pick what alignment you read as is actually more what I thought would be interesting in some situations. It would play merry hell with some traps and NPCs at least.

I think Leader should be a prestige class not a full class. Most leaders in fiction (and real life) don't get much of a following until they gain some experience and achieve some tangible results.

And it should be the kind of prestige class where it is worthwhile for a fighter, wizard etc. to take a one level dip in order to gain an apprentice.

Actually I can see something like a modified version of the Evangelist working well for that.

And he's Lawful Good. And would prefer to work with Chaotic Good over Lawful Evil.

...And regularly throws down and hates working with other LG characters while having long talks and laughing with a CE character. He is a bit "odd" when it comes to interpersonal relationships.

Fairly simple question but I want to make sure I am thinking of this right: Would an Alchemist using Eternal Potion on a potion of Infernal/Celestial Healing have fast healing 1 permanently and would they then have an Evil/Good aura as well?

I just thought of an amusing "fall". The standard Antipaladin who worships a god does so in a very power hungry fashion. If they, and by extension their god, repeatedly get defeated by a Good god it could result in a crisis of faith leading to a fall. Why follow the divine being that can't seem to win for any length of time when you could throw in with the winning side? Might not flash them into a Paladin but would probably break them away from the Antipaladin far enough to turn them into Fighters or Barbarians.

In reality, shields has been made obsolete by firearms so no one had a shield on the battlefield.

If you are bringing firearms into the equation you can throw out ALL metal and/or heavy armor. Bullets are weird with what they will puncture and what will catch them...

One of the stereotypical falls is love turning to jealously possessive. The reverse would make a fairly natural rise.

"No one but I can break my toys" --> "I won't let you damage what's mine" --> "I won't let you hurt them" --> "I will protect these people"

The other would be looking for a more challenging fight. After "saving" a few towns so they could fight the BBEG their motive shifts more towards fighting the BBEG to save the town.

What level/CR are you looking for?

Honestly the easier route would just be to "mine" the Abyss for soul gems and directly damage the source. The Abyss (and most aligned outer planes) is basically concentrated soul stuff. Just build a device to constantly transform it into soul gems. Then take the gems, purify them, and transfer them directly to your plane of choice (Axis might even build the device if you give them a cut) and tada you just shifted the power balance in a small way. If you get Axis involved they might even be able to make a self replicating version of the device to make a bigger strike against the Abyss and Chaos in general. Admittiedly that is the recipe for a Lawful grey goo scenario but that is besides the point.

silverrey wrote:

I can see Asmodeus and the Archdevils doing so, but Nethys, Pharasma, and the Ushers I can't see having a reason to. One is the definition of magically neutral and the others are judges with no claim to the soul one way or the other. Considering the later would be the ones to make the final call on you they would even be able to tell you as an individual howe it will work in your case.

Well Nethys is b@#!$#+ f~!*ing crazy so that should speak for itself.

As for Pharasma, hmm. Would she answer correctly? Would she answer at all? I don't think she would based on her observance of Fate, but that's just my interpretation of her.

It would be similar to asking a judge about what the law regarding something is. If you break the law through ignorance you still broke the law but a lawyer might be able to lessen your sentence if it is something obscure. If you break the law after being told what will happen then you have chosen to accept the ruling. What you do with the knowledge is what you will be judge on not that you requested the knowledge.

For example: You can't just claim a car that was left in your yard as yours because they left it overnight, That would be considered stealing the car, but if it has been left for a certain amount of time (different in each area) and you made an attempt to contact the owner then the car is legally yours free and clear. Asking what that time frame is and what paperwork you need to fill out would be something any local judge (or DMV) would be able to answer easily and have no reason not to answer.

silverrey wrote:

Lorewalker wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Lorewalker wrote:

Any number of ways? Any rule of the universe should be discoverable. And any god dedicated to good, evil, magic or universal laws in general could have the want to figure it out.

Should be. Is? Maybe. Already done? Maybe. Just because you've created an theoretical experiment doesn't mean it's been carried out, or was successful if it was.

My point is it is highly likely that something which can affect alignments so strongly has been investigated by the gods. At the very least, it should be entirely possible to do so for the gods... So what is your problem with that? I'm not saying that it is something in text.

Asmodeus, Nethys, and Pharasma at the very least should all know the answer just as part of their portfolios. Actually for that matter literally every Usher and Archdevil should be able to answer it as part of their day to day job function...

Those are also the 3 that would be very likely to screw with you as well.

Commune wrote:

You contact your deity—or agents thereof—and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. (A cleric of no particular deity contacts a philosophically allied deity.) You are allowed one such question per caster level. The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity's knowledge. "Unclear" is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity's interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.

The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If you lag, discuss the answers, or go off to do anything else, the spell ends.

I can see Asmodeus and the Archdevils doing so, but Nethys, Pharasma, and the Ushers I can't see having a reason to. One is the definition of magically neutral and the others are judges with no claim to the soul one way or the other. Considering the later would be the ones to make the final call on you they would even be able to tell you as an individual howe it will work in your case.

Rysky wrote:

Lorewalker wrote:

Any number of ways? Any rule of the universe should be discoverable. And any god dedicated to good, evil, magic or universal laws in general could have the want to figure it out.

Should be. Is? Maybe. Already done? Maybe. Just because you've created an theoretical experiment doesn't mean it's been carried out, or was successful if it was.

My point is it is highly likely that something which can affect alignments so strongly has been investigated by the gods. At the very least, it should be entirely possible to do so for the gods... So what is your problem with that? I'm not saying that it is something in text.

Asmodeus, Nethys, and Pharasma at the very least should all know the answer just as part of their portfolios. Actually for that matter literally every Usher and Archdevil should be able to answer it as part of their day to day job function...

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Snowlilly wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

In fairness, Death's Heretic (and a few other things) makes it pretty clear that Pharasma and the Inevitables in question only start caring a few centuries down the line, and even then mostly only under certain circumstances. It's not living a long time they really object to, but the possibility of someone never dying. A few extra centuries is...

There are a few Runelords, and ex-Runelords, that would like to say hello :)

Some of them have managed to persist for more than ten thousand years without the Immortality discovery.

I'm pretty sure suspended animation is not counted on your 'clock'.

Still, Karzoug's statblock mentions hit +3 bonuses to mental stats that are there due to living beyond venerable age in his "Immortal (ex)" special ability, implying that he went far beyond "his time" anyway. This would imply that the wizard discovery does allow one to not die from old age, and likely is a variant of the Immortality discovery.

I imagine some of that kind of thing is just keeping your head down. A wizard who spends 700 years locked in their study is probably considered less of a threat than the Immortal King who has been openly ruling their country for the last 3 generations.

silverrey wrote:

While I can't say I blame them for not throwing themselves to the lions, it is rather amusing that no one official has deemed to touch this topic. Hell, if this is "how it has always been" it shouldn't be to hard for someone from Paizo to explain how this has been designed to work this whole time.

They don't normally weigh in on rules topics here so it's not a surprise. Anything they say wont be official so it would be pointless anyway. May as well avoid fanning the flames and put out an FAQ.

Not seeing that happening either sadly.

While I can't say I blame them for not throwing themselves to the lions, it is rather amusing that no one official has deemed to touch this topic. Hell, if this is "how it has always been" it shouldn't be to hard for someone from Paizo to explain how this has been designed to work this whole time.

Rysky wrote:

dragonhunterq wrote:

Changing alignment magically doesn't automatically change your personality.

Yes it does.

Normally your behavior and actions determine your alignment, because that's how you get an alignment in the first place.

Forcibly changing your alignment by magic would forcibly change your personality along with it, which is a lot of people don't do it.

Do you have a source for that?

The helm of opposite alignment explicitly say it does that, but I can't find anything that makes it a general rule.

"The effects of this infusion may have serious repercussions for a creature suddenly struggling with a new outlook. Many see it as little more than forced insanity, and some good faiths outlaw its use."

That is from the Change Alignment discovery and is the closest I could find right off. It is flavor text and could be taken a few different ways but it does imply that it forcefully changes how they think.

Per the old Complete Scoundrel:
Batman was LG
Spiderman was NG
007 was LN
And... That is all I can remember without digging out the book again

silverrey wrote:

By the same token one of my old bosses was always one step away from being criminally abusive to their employees and yet it was my favorite job (most days) because the place ran with clockwork efficiency.

Can't beat being almost criminally abused with clockwork efficiency...

Considering I lost my job because the person who replaced him bankrupted the company by having EVERY employee work overtime if ANY department was running behind I did prefer the former.

I feel like a LG creature would be better friends with a CG creature, but would rather work with a LE creature. Good/Evil axis is leisure, and Lawful/Chaotic axis is business. This feels right to me with any alignment pair.

Speaking from working with a very broad range of people I think this is probably the best way to look at it. One of my best friends is almost comically CG. Great guy, love hanging out with him, but I would NEVER voche to have him work with me as I would spend more time cleaning up after him than I would doing my work. By the same token one of my old bosses was always one step away from being criminally abusive to their employees and yet it was my favorite job (most days) because the place ran with clockwork efficiency.