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Check out the Athars faction from the old Planescape setting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faction_(Planescape)#Original_factions
Apu,
There are a lot of ways to look at this.
Most distilled and least useful, faith in this setting is whether or not making your chosen god an essential part of your life meaningful and vitally important to you.
The whys are where it gets tricky.
--) Does your god have something to teach you?
--) The whole afterlife issue
--) Are the gods in their places keeping us safe from terrible uncaring things?
--) Your god gives you cool and useful powers
--) Your god fights people you don't like
The main concept here is that the tangible existence of divinity can be opposed by stating that such beings/forces are equal or lesser beings, whether that is moral, ethical, power, whatever. The iconic wizard Ezren is an atheist, if you're looking for a character example.
A character could take a viewpoint similar to Batman. In one of the storylines he pointed out that he believes actual divine beings are just exceptionally powerful entities, but not true gods. The Starstone supports that idea as anyone who can pass the trial becomes a god.
Demonlords, the Elemental Lords, Cthulhu, all grant clerical powers and spells, but they are not quite gods. So, you can be an atheist, you do not believe that the gods are actually gods, just beings that found incredible power.
A character could take a viewpoint similar to Batman. In one of the storylines he pointed out that he believes actual divine beings are just exceptionally powerful entities, but not true gods. The Starstone supports that idea as anyone who can pass the trial becomes a god.
Demonlords, the Elemental Lords, Cthulhu, all grant clerical powers and spells, but they are not quite gods. So, you can be an atheist, you do not believe that the gods are actually gods, just beings that found incredible power.
Well, to be fair, Cthulhu worships certain Gods himself so of course, he isn't a god.
We even know that gods can die in Golarion. See Aroden (Note: Is missing. Until you see the body, it ain't truly dead).
Also note:
Probably some more that I'm forgetting.
Also note that Curchanus was slaughtered by Lamashtu, who became a god.
Vyriavaxus was killed by Nocticula, who used his essence to build part of her abyssal realm.
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I played an atheist in a Ravenloft game a few years back. He was of the belief that the gods were all made up by the churches as a means of controlling people. Divine magic? So what, lots of people can use magic, it doesn't mean there are gods.
He wasn't pushy about it, didn't try to dissuade people from their faith, but privately he thought it was all a big scam.
When was the last time any Golarion believer actually talked to its deity, PCs notwithstanding ?
Not that hard to disbelieve actually ;-)
Reasobly, every answered prayer, the gods spiritual presence during worship.
Specifically, divinations, divinity specific effects.
Is some entity providing non-worshippers with divine power without requiring faith?
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Thing is, though, that Clerics casting spells is NOT proof that gods exist. While the players get to peek under the hood of a roleplaying game, the PCs and NPCs have no such privilege.
How can a character be an atheist? Simple, he has not personally met a god or being that could convince him of the existence of divinity. He thinks most churches are either entirely fraudulent or in some way deluded.
This doesn't stop him from being 'technically incorrect', but it's very hard to prove otherwise, unless you can Plane Shift and actually manage to make an introduction to a particular god. Also, since many gods are definitely NOT nice things worthy of being worshiped, rejecting the idea of actually worshiping a god is not an unusual idea.
And then there's the 'soft atheists', who just can't be bothered to worship because the rewards aren't tangible and immediate enough.
Well, to be fair, Cthulhu worships certain Gods himself so of course, he isn't a god.A character could take a viewpoint similar to Batman. In one of the storylines he pointed out that he believes actual divine beings are just exceptionally powerful entities, but not true gods. The Starstone supports that idea as anyone who can pass the trial becomes a god.
Demonlords, the Elemental Lords, Cthulhu, all grant clerical powers and spells, but they are not quite gods. So, you can be an atheist, you do not believe that the gods are actually gods, just beings that found incredible power.
I'm aware, that is why I lumped him next to two other groups that aren't gods.
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Three of my PCs come to mind here.
One of them, although not in a very obvious-gods setting, just didn't care. Okay, so divine magic is a thing. Okay, so deities are a thing. Whatever, praying for help is for wimps.
My second atheist character just thinks the gods don't care. He's aware they have very real power, that a chosen few can call on, and has some respect for that. But he's also seen enough people pray for help and no gods intervened to save any of them. So clearly, if you're not taking levels in cleric, faith is a pretty raw deal.
The third character is somewhat religious, because the tenets of the faith appeal to her, but she's pretty much a skeptic anyway. She doesn't think none of the gods exist, because yeah, that would be unlikely, but she also isn't too convinced any particular one exists either, because that's how life works, some stories are true and some aren't. She hasn't seen any signs of having Calistria's favor, after all, despite diligently blowing up whoever she has a grudge against for some time now, so the whole thing could well be a scam.
Choosing to be a person without faith, I think, has nothing to do whether powerful, spell granting deities exist or not. Perhaps this person wants to succeed or fail in life based on their own actions and choices, and not be influenced by powerful beings. Its a question of free will, that being an adherent to any particular powerful being may deny. Who wants to give up free will to follow the precepts of a powerful being. For those who are Christian, Satan is recognized to being a very powerful being, yet, there have never been huge populations of Satan worshipers, there may have been some, perhaps even today, but such has always been a small minority. Not everyone wants to be a follower in life, even those who recognize there are indeed powerful super beings out there.
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Have you played a divine denier in a world where gods are a certainty? How did your character reconcile his disbelief? What made him turn away from the gods in the first place?
Yes, in a world where gods are actually proven to exist, you can't be an atheist.
ON the other paw, you can most certainly choose not to kiss their asses. If you look at the gods, they aren't any better or different than a really powerful human. They're fallible, they're flawed, they screw up, and they die. They may be more powerful than most folks, but they certainly aren't 'better'.
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I have a hard time understanding how anyone in Golarion *wouldn't* be an atheist, at least in the Rahadoumi sense.
As a modern person living in a culture heavily influenced by the monotheistic Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, & Islam), it is hard for me to think of something like Serenrae as a *god*. She isn't all knowing, she isn't all powerful, she isn't immortal, she didn't create the universe, she isn't morally perfect, she isn't eternal, etc..., etc...
Speaking as a polytheist in real life who finds the idea of an omnipotent deity who's worth worshiping logically inconsistent with observed reality...I have no trouble at all seeing why someone would be religious in Golarion.
Heck, pre-Christianity the idea of an omnipotent God was just not something people believed in for the most part. But a God who was better than humans in every way, including morally? Absolutely an idea they had, and a good reason to follow someone. Someone who knows more than you, is smarter than you, is vastly more powerful than you, and wants to help you...why would you reject that help?
Let's take Sarenrae. She may not have created the universe, but she is a really nice person who just wants to help. And one of the most powerful really nice people in existence. Why wouldn't you accept the help or follow the teachings of someone who is righteous and Good and regularly gives nice people superpowers with which they can help others?
For a real world example, let's look at the Buddha. Nobody says he's omnipotent, or even immortal in some special way. He was just a philosopher with (according to Buddhists) an essential insight into the nature of the universe. People follow his teachings all the time. Now, add in lots of empirical evidence that he really did know more about the nature of reality than just about anyone (and it made him immortal) and have him start giving those who follow his teachings best superhuman powers...and you start beginning to see why almost all people might follow the Gods in a world like Golarion. Especially since there are enough of them that you can probably find at least one whose teachings already line up pretty well with your own beliefs.
Now, this isn't to say that not following them doesn't also make sense. As noted, they are fallible, they can die, and there are certainly all sorts of other justifications. Not following them can make all sorts of sense, especially as a point of pride in an 'I don't need help' kind of way (which is a definite part of Rahadoumi philosophy, for example)...but it's gonna be in the minority.
The gods of Golarion have very little to do with the concept "God" as understood by monotheists. "God says I should be king" carries some weight in medieval Europe because the God under consideration is believed to be perfectly moral and perfectly wise. "Gozreh says I should be king" not so much. Gozreh is powerful, and presumably pretty smart, but he's just one of many imperfect beings who might have an opinion on the monarchy. He's not even good. Respect the gods, sure, but worship? Why? They're manifestly not worthy of worship.
Well, speaking as a student of mythology, polytheistic faiths didn't think that deities were perfect...but still sometimes went for the 'divine right of kings' thing, on the basis that the Gods were both vastly more powerful, more knowledgeable, and in some cases more moral than humans and thus had better judgment than people on who should rule. Which follows pretty logically in many cases.
Is Gozreh (or Zeus) all-knowing? No. Does he know more than any mortal? Yes. He's thus in a better position than humans to decide who should rule. Plus, nobody wants to get hit with lightning for criticizing his choice.
Or that's the logic, anyway. With some Gods that logic has a flaw inasmuch as the deity might have very different priorities than the people of the kingdom and pick a ruler who's not super good for those people, just the God's own agenda (Rahadoumi would argue all Gods do this).
All that said...Golarion doesn't actually have a whole lot of Kings/hereditary rulers. And almost none who actually go with 'a God picked me, thus I rule' as their justification for rule. The 'divine right of kings' is not a common belief in Golarion...so using it as an example is pretty flawed.
On Golarion and in a great many third party worlds, as well as pretty much every D&D world since the beginning gods have been a fact of life. Being an atheist is damn near impossible when divine beings walk the earth and demons and angels can be summoned forth. So how and why does one choose not to put faith in the gods when they are fact. Looking past just Golarion's Rahamoudan, we look at being faithless in your pathfinder game.
Have you played a divine denier in a world where gods are a certainty? How did your character reconcile his disbelief? What made him turn away from the gods in the first place?
Again... the viewpoint of someone living in Golarian isn't going to be the same as an atheist living in America. After all not a single pope or evangelical has actually demonstrated the ability to raise the dead, any more than any sideshow magician has done a real polymorph.
If you deny in the face of things you actually witness, than you're on the same level as the people on our world who still make Flat Earth videos.
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That's not it.. Rahadoun doesn't deny the existence of Gods. It's quite the opposite, they fully know that Gods exist,, that they have the powers advertised, they simply don't want any more Truck with them than Jean Luc Picard or Benjamin Sisko would want with a Q.
I quite liked the view held by the Arcanists of ancient Nethril, in pre-Forgotten Realms. They weren't atheistic so much as antitheistic. They saw deities as beings attempting to restrain and prevent mortals from reaching their true potential. This degree of proud arrogance suits the power level of a D&D magic user. Especially ones with spell levels up to 13.
Of course, Nethril fell when one Arcanist finally became powerful enough to try to remove that restraint. Clearly, wisdom was a popular dump stat among Arcanists.
I quite liked the view held by the Arcanists of ancient Nethril, in pre-Forgotten Realms. They weren't atheistic so much as antitheistic. They saw deities as beings attempting to restrain and prevent mortals from reaching their true potential. This degree of proud arrogance suits the power level of a D&D magic user. Especially ones with spell levels up to 13.
Of course, Nethril fell when one Arcanist finally became powerful enough to try to remove that restraint. Clearly, wisdom was a popular dump stat among Arcanists.
It's a truism that people who actively seek power are frequently among those the least suited to wield it.
The wizard you're thinking of was actually trying to fully take over control of the Weave himself and finding that he was vastly unsuited for the task. He'd messed up things so much that Mysterl could only fix the Weave by killing herself to reboot it, as it were... reincarnating herself as the Second Mystra.
There was a 3.5 splat book (for the life of me I can't remember which one) had a very good guide/outlook for that. The view would more "Don't see me" than "I don't see you". They are overwhelmingly powerful beings who can wipe you and all you know away with a blink if they want but that doesn't mean you have to praise them... You just have to not piss them off. Being a "nobody" helps, when you are concerned with whole worlds one person keeping their head down isn't a big deal. In many ways Rahadoun only continues because they remain completely neutral and thus make themselves (either intentionally or not) more useful to the gods than annoying.
Athiesm in Golarion would probably be related to any evidence-avoiding RL belief.
Just needs a selling concept that's preferable to observed reality, social support group, youth indoctrination, claim to historical longevity or popularity, valuing loyalty to the concept/group over rationality.
Anti-theism like Rahadoum, or whatever you call gods are just more powerful me's so why worship when I can become or bargain with one instead, seems much more interesting to me.
Signing out of the discussion.
I meant to compliment the OP on the title. I like the song, and the inferred holy war referent.
Atheism in Golarion isn't denying the gods exist. Instead, it's the belief that any deific power, whether native or not, isn't worth the effort to worship. They even state that in several of the setting books. For a non-believer who completely denies the gods exist, they are pretty much boned since all people who die go to the Boneyard and get judged by Phasrama. Most likely they'll end up being resent back as a new soul or have to listen to Justin Bieber/elevator music while the death based bureaucracy decides what to do with such an unbeliever. As far as the Realms go, you have to worship a god or become Faithless or False ever since Kelemvor got tired of people committing suicide by not believing in the gods because they knew they would get a fair shake in the afterlife.
Now in your own setting, you could deny the gods' existence all you like, and if your belief is strong enough in a world in which magic exists, you would most likely be less subject to divine magic due to the strength of your belief. I found a regular class way back in 3.0 that extends this disbelief into magic, and can even eliminate the magical powers of magical beasts or dragon or outsiders by disbelieving or using science to dismiss their existence. There is also the idea of the godkillers, a group of mortals that slays gods because they are not worthy of worship, and the true atheist who can't be resurrected or raised because they believe the soul doesn't exist and vanishes after they are born.
I think it would depend greatly on how one chooses to define 'God' or 'gods.'
Obviously, I think just about anyone with any significant resources can objectively confirm beyond reasonable doubt the existence of powerful beings that some people worship and some people call Gods. That alone though doesn't necessarily mean you have to believe that Gods exist.
For example, I personally believe that Julius Caesar existed, he was indeed quite powerful, and many people have worshiped him and called him a god. For me though, not of those facts provide any compelling evidence for the existence of divinity.
Believing that all the gods in Golarion, even the supposedly benevolent ones, are liars and scam artists simply desiring to harvest the souls of mortals ins't really all that much a stretch.
The gods could be a lie.
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It's not actually even necessary to believe that the Gods are scam artists to deny their divinity. You could easily believe that someone like Sarenrae is nice and trying to help while still not regarding her as more worthy of worship as such than that nice doctor who lives down the street.
Whether power justifies or necessitates worship is a very personal choice, even if you agree with the deity in question's ethos.
Bad atheists refuse to worship a god. Good atheists worship Groetus. Don't refuse to pick the lesser evil, pick the guy who promises to burn it all to the ground.
I never thought of atheism in Golarion or most stock fantasy worlds as being a "there are no such things as gods" but more of "yes, they exist but so what, I'm not letting something tell me how to live my life" approach to viewing deities. It is practically impossible to deny the afterlife/gods/the things we in the real world can doubt in worlds where you routinely see undead, ghosts, demons, angels, demi gods and clerics of gods that when they pray to them they get real results.
This is pretty easy
Okay, yes, the cleric invokes their god and fire rains from the sky.
But the wizard can do the exact same thing.
The cleric prays for mercy and your broken arm heals
The singer at the local bar can do the same thing.
Magic stops being evidence of divine favor when everyone has magic.
I never thought of atheism in Golarion or most stock fantasy worlds as being a "there are no such things as gods" but more of "yes, they exist but so what, I'm not letting something tell me how to live my life" approach to viewing deities. It is practically impossible to deny the afterlife/gods/the things we in the real world can doubt in worlds where you routinely see undead, ghosts, demons, angels, demi gods and clerics of gods that when they pray to them they get real results.Atheism literally is the belief in godlessness (from Atheos, godlessness), so what you are describing could be Misotheism, Antitheism, Antiworship, or some other similar term, but not atheism.
That is our definition on this planet. Other planets that have actual gods but ppl who choose not to worship them would probably call it something else but the closest we can relate to is atheism. I don't see any running around saying "How can anyone be a Misothist in a world where gods exist?"
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Atheism literally is the belief in godlessness (from Atheos, godlessness), so what you are describing could be Misotheism, Antitheism, Antiworship, or some other similar term, but not atheism.
Its a fantasy setting, not a philosophy course.
But yes, Rahadoum is more maltheism than atheism. Most people are maltheistic towards a fair number of deities..
Athiesm in Golarion would probably be related to any evidence-avoiding RL belief.
Just needs a selling concept that's preferable to observed reality, social support group, youth indoctrination, claim to historical longevity or popularity, valuing loyalty to the concept/group over rationality.Anti-theism like Rahadoum, or whatever you call gods are just more powerful me's so why worship when I can become or bargain with one instead, seems much more interesting to me.
Rahadoum's Anti-Theism has nothing pragmatic regarding the gods, it's outright hatred because of the war and misery brought on by two faiths that had an all-out war for the hearts and minds. One day the nation decided it had enough and declared a pox on all divine powers. The only real good portrait of the mindset from an inside view is Jame's Sutter's Death's Heretic.
Rahadoum's Anti-Theism has nothing pragmatic regarding the gods, it's outright hatred because of the war and misery brought on by two faiths that had an all-out war for the hearts and minds. One day the nation decided it had enough and declared a pox on all divine powers. The only real good portrait of the mindset from an inside view is Jame's Sutter's Death's Heretic.Athiesm in Golarion would probably be related to any evidence-avoiding RL belief.
Just needs a selling concept that's preferable to observed reality, social support group, youth indoctrination, claim to historical longevity or popularity, valuing loyalty to the concept/group over rationality.Anti-theism like Rahadoum, or whatever you call gods are just more powerful me's so why worship when I can become or bargain with one instead, seems much more interesting to me.
Weak grammar on my part, those were supposed to be two separate concepts, anti-theist and anti-worship, to contrast with athiest. Death's Heretic is a great read, the best PF novel by far.
As I said above "Define gods". Then I'll tell you whether my Golarion self is an atheist or not.
Something that can beat a well prepared wizard?
*ow ow ow kidding ow ow ow...*