1 drop of devil's blood does not have a price and thus would be covered by a spell component pouch or eschew materials.Hello, who said you get access to the item?
Any way, the rules on magic have been posted and are perfectly clear in this case. There is no cost listed for the material components for infernal healing, therefore all you need is a spell component pouch or eschew materials. It doesn't matter that there is an unrelated item that costs money, the rules do not say "spells that have a material component without a listed cost are negligible (just kidding ignore this statement and look up everything to make sure)", the rule is "spells with a material component without a listed cost are negligible"
Your logic is completely faulty.
Unholy Water does have a price. Just because it's not listed on that spell doesn't make it free.
Maybe?
That's the point of this FaQ. Why have 2 components, one with a price, and one seemingly without? It makes no sense.
There's no "maybe" and no "seemingly". 1 drop of devil's blood very clearly has no price per RAW.
I agree, though, that it makes no sense. But this is neither the first nor last Pathfinder rule that makes no sense.
This is just more information. Make what of it you will.
1. If there is not a price listed, then it's free.
Not true. Both Holy Ice Weapon and Holy Ice Wall like "a flask of holy water; or 5 lbs of powdered silver worth 25 gp". The price for a flask of holy water is not listed. Only the price of the 5 lbs of silver is listed.
2. Dose vs. flask
So two previous spells requiring holy water state a flask (or 5 lbs of silver) as the component when they mean a full flask of holy water. The only time it says dose is in Infernal and Celestial healing.
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1 drop of devil's blood does not have a price and thus would be covered by a spell component pouch or eschew materials.Hello, who said you get access to the item?
Any way, the rules on magic have been posted and are perfectly clear in this case. There is no cost listed for the material components for infernal healing, therefore all you need is a spell component pouch or eschew materials. It doesn't matter that there is an unrelated item that costs money, the rules do not say "spells that have a material component without a listed cost are negligible (just kidding ignore this statement and look up everything to make sure)", the rule is "spells with a material component without a listed cost are negligible"
Your logic is completely faulty.
Unholy Water does have a price. Just because it's not listed on that spell doesn't make it free.
Maybe?
That's the point of this FaQ. Why have 2 components, one with a price, and one seemingly without? It makes no sense.
There's no "maybe" and no "seemingly". 1 drop of devil's blood very clearly has no price per RAW.
I agree, though, that it makes no sense. But this is neither the first nor last Pathfinder rule that makes no sense.
Yea there is a maybe, and yes, it doesn't make any sense, hence the need for the FaQ.
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This is just more information. Make what of it you will.
1. If there is not a price listed, then it's free.
Not true. Both Holy Ice Weapon and Holy Ice Wall like "a flask of holy water; or 5 lbs of powdered silver worth 25 gp". The price for a flask of holy water is not listed. Only the price of the 5 lbs of silver is listed.
2. Dose vs. flask
So two previous spells requiring holy water state a flask (or 5 lbs of silver) as the component when they mean a full flask of holy water. The only time it says dose is in Infernal and Celestial healing.
Not to mention that dose is a quantity, not a measurement. So flask could be a dose.
Just to add yet another possibility, perhaps the writer put a "dose of holy water" in as a flavor component (similar to guano in fireball) and the devil blood part is supposed to support such an idea.
Hello, who said you get access to the item?
Any way, the rules on magic have been posted and are perfectly clear in this case. There is no cost listed for the material components for infernal healing, therefore all you need is a spell component pouch or eschew materials. It doesn't matter that there is an unrelated item that costs money, the rules do not say "spells that have a material component without a listed cost are negligible (just kidding ignore this statement and look up everything to make sure)", the rule is "spells with a material component without a listed cost are negligible"
Note that, by this logic, the transformation spell has no costly material component.
Components V, S, M (a potion of bull's strength, which you drink and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects)Note the phrasing - it must be a fully-functional potion (and not a completely different "potion of bull's strength" item with no mechanical elements), because otherwise it wouldn't have any effects to subsume.
Thus, by the logic of the quoted post, all spell component pouches contain numerous potions of bull's strength. For 5 gp, no less.
Now that's how you buff the fighter class. And it's even Core! ^_^
If only those potions stacked with the belt of mandatory.
Not to mention that dose is a quantity, not a measurement. So flask could be a dose.This is just more information. Make what of it you will.
1. If there is not a price listed, then it's free.
Not true. Both Holy Ice Weapon and Holy Ice Wall like "a flask of holy water; or 5 lbs of powdered silver worth 25 gp". The price for a flask of holy water is not listed. Only the price of the 5 lbs of silver is listed.
2. Dose vs. flask
So two previous spells requiring holy water state a flask (or 5 lbs of silver) as the component when they mean a full flask of holy water. The only time it says dose is in Infernal and Celestial healing.
I think you're giving the editors too little credit. Spells that require a flask of holy water say so in 2010 and 2012. Infernal healing was published in 2011, and Celestial healing was published in 2014.
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I think you're giving the editors too little credit. Spells that require a flask of holy water say so in 2010 and 2012. Infernal healing was published in 2011, and Celestial healing was published in 2014.Not to mention that dose is a quantity, not a measurement. So flask could be a dose.This is just more information. Make what of it you will.
1. If there is not a price listed, then it's free.
Not true. Both Holy Ice Weapon and Holy Ice Wall like "a flask of holy water; or 5 lbs of powdered silver worth 25 gp". The price for a flask of holy water is not listed. Only the price of the 5 lbs of silver is listed.
2. Dose vs. flask
So two previous spells requiring holy water state a flask (or 5 lbs of silver) as the component when they mean a full flask of holy water. The only time it says dose is in Infernal and Celestial healing.
That's the thing though, a dose isn't a measurement by itself.
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I mean... this a non-issue issue. Sure, you could get some Paizo developer to say "Of course unholy water costs something!", but it is meaningless due to devil's blood not having a cost.
Is it silly to have a non-cost option and a costly option? Not really, there are definitely good possible reasons to have it be so.
But, I'll throw a FAQ click. As I'm also the sort of person who wants things technically fixed even if they aren't functionally broken.
I think they meant a drop?
Because dosage varies.
However, when cooking: A liquid dose is usually a teaspoon.
Unless it's a tablespoon.
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Another very interesting note: the earlier printings of the spell (in 3.5's Gods and Magic and Pathfinder's Adventure Path #29: Mother of Flies, respectively) do not include the unholy water as a component option - only the drop of devil's blood. The unholy water component doesn't appear until the Inner Sea World Guide, meaning that it was intentionally added.
This means it must be there for some reason... although I couldn't tell you what. Maybe to explain why it doesn't have the lawful descriptor in addition to the evil descriptor? (That's also when the worshipers-of-Asmodeus-only restriction was lifted, for the record.)
It is a mystery.
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Another very interesting note: the earlier printings of the spell (in 3.5's Gods and Magic and Pathfinder's Adventure Path #29: Mother of Flies, respectively) do not include the unholy water as a component option - only the drop of devil's blood. The unholy water component doesn't appear until the Inner Sea World Guide, meaning that it was intentionally added.
This means it must be there for some reason... although I couldn't tell you what. Maybe to explain why it doesn't have the lawful descriptor in addition to the evil descriptor? (That's also when the worshipers-of-Asmodeus-only restriction was lifted, for the record.)
It is a mystery.
I seem to recall something about being able to use the blood of certain evil outsiders as unholy water. Maybe I'm just thinking of Black Blood, but not sure.
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There's no "maybe" and no "seemingly". 1 drop of devil's blood very clearly has no price per RAW.
One big question on this topic, is: Does Devil's Blood refer to the actual blood of an evil outsider with the devil subtype, or does it refer to something called "Devil's Blood?"
If the spell required a Martyr's Tear, would it refer the tear from a martyr, or to this magic item: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Martyr% 27s%20Tear?
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One way is to look at how the text is formatted. For example, in the aforementioned transformation spell, note how the potion of bull's strength it asks for is italicized - the same way a magic item would be.
So, to answer your question: it would depend on whether the spell required a martyr's tear, or a martyr's tear. ^_^
I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.
And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.
Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).
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I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.
And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.
Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).
Yeah, that's the main reason I'd like it to be FaQed, it bugs the hell out of me >_<
Nah no maybe. The holy ice spell as written the 25 gold is implied for the holy water flask.
Not by the rules of punctuation and English I know...
Its true that the magic rules don't make sense in some ways. Of you think about the rules for gameplay purposes, and imagine the awful minutae of tracking every tiny silver and copper component, the rules make perfect sense. I've shown in the rules how magic works, the rules say what they mean.
So then the bull's strength potion in the Transformation spell is free? That's what you're telling us here.
I think it's a stronger bet that the person writing the rule you keep mentioning expected all spells with a more costly material component to include the price reference and that expectation is not always met in the write-up of spells. So what's our solution - to dig in with the rule and make the bull's strength potions used in Transformation free? Or recognize that the general guideline isn't always followed in the rulebooks and apply the costs of specific items listed in the component when they are known?
Another related FAQ request
Can a creature gain the effects of Fast Healing from a spell, such as from Infernal Healing, when they normally do not heal naturally?
This is in relation to Undead, Constructs and Eidolons.
Eidolons = a definitive yes.
They already have the ability to obtain fast healing through evolutions. The ability, as RAW for eidolons currently reads, prevents eidolons with the fast healing evolution from healing while not summoned.
The same would apply to Infernal Healing, it only heals them while summoned, but the duration expires normally if not summoned.
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I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.
And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.
Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).
Didn't even occur to me. Yeah, Eidolons now have subtypes, so their blood could potentially qualify for this. Suggestion to Paizo, eliminate the drop of devil blood reference, and just require the Unholy water. Way easier and eliminates the potential issue with Devil Eidolons giving out free spell components.
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Didn't even occur to me. Yeah, Eidolons now have subtypes, so their blood could potentially qualify for this. Suggestion to Paizo, eliminate the drop of devil blood reference, and just require the Unholy water. Way easier and eliminates the potential issue with Devil Eidolons giving out free spell components.I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.
And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.
Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).
Don't forget Pitborn Tieflings.
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Don't forget Pitborn Tieflings.Didn't even occur to me. Yeah, Eidolons now have subtypes, so their blood could potentially qualify for this. Suggestion to Paizo, eliminate the drop of devil blood reference, and just require the Unholy water. Way easier and eliminates the potential issue with Devil Eidolons giving out free spell components.I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.
And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.
Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).
Forget? No, I haven't read any of the tiefling information. Not my thing. Interesting to know a player race can have the devil subtype.
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Forget? No, I haven't read any of the tiefling information. Not my thing. Interesting to know a player race can have the devil subtype.Don't forget Pitborn Tieflings.Didn't even occur to me. Yeah, Eidolons now have subtypes, so their blood could potentially qualify for this. Suggestion to Paizo, eliminate the drop of devil blood reference, and just require the Unholy water. Way easier and eliminates the potential issue with Devil Eidolons giving out free spell components.I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.
And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.
Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).
They don't have the subtype, they're just Tieflings that are specifically descended from Devils.
So they got a lot to devil's blood in em.
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Forget? No, I haven't read any of the tiefling information. Not my thing. Interesting to know a player race can have the devil subtype.Don't forget Pitborn Tieflings.Didn't even occur to me. Yeah, Eidolons now have subtypes, so their blood could potentially qualify for this. Suggestion to Paizo, eliminate the drop of devil blood reference, and just require the Unholy water. Way easier and eliminates the potential issue with Devil Eidolons giving out free spell components.I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.
And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.
Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).
They don't have the subtype, they're just Tieflings that are specifically descended from Devils.
So they got a lot to devil's blood in em.
Not sure, but I think they'd need the subtype to qualify for this spell. I know I wouldn't allow a Sorcerer with the Infernal Bloodline to qualify as having devil's blood for this spell's components.
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Not sure, but I think they'd need the subtype to qualify for this spell. I know I wouldn't allow a Sorcerer with the Infernal Bloodline to qualify as having devil's blood for this spell's components.Forget? No, I haven't read any of the tiefling information. Not my thing. Interesting to know a player race can have the devil subtype.Don't forget Pitborn Tieflings.Didn't even occur to me. Yeah, Eidolons now have subtypes, so their blood could potentially qualify for this. Suggestion to Paizo, eliminate the drop of devil blood reference, and just require the Unholy water. Way easier and eliminates the potential issue with Devil Eidolons giving out free spell components.I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.
And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.
Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).
They don't have the subtype, they're just Tieflings that are specifically descended from Devils.
So they got a lot to devil's blood in em.
it just says devil's blood so there's not really a hard and fast rule that it has be devil's blood from a full on Devil or devil's blood from a Devil-blooded Tiefling.
*shrugs*
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Sooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?
Wouldn't a much more reasonable FAQ request be to simply omit the Unholy Water component in favor of only a drop of Devil's Blood?
Sooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?
Wouldn't a much more reasonable FAQ request be to simply omit the Unholy Water component in favor of only a drop of Devil's Blood?
i wouldn't want that to happen, but I think the FAQ request has applications that go beyond that. It raises the question what the price of a wand is if the material component has two different prices.
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i wouldn't want that to happen, but I think the FAQ request has applications that go beyond that. It raises the question what the price of a wand is if the material component has two different prices.Sooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?
Wouldn't a much more reasonable FAQ request be to simply omit the Unholy Water component in favor of only a drop of Devil's Blood?
*nods*
I didn't make this FaQ for the intention of "Change this!", I made it for "WHICH IS IT?!". If th Devs state that they're no price for each I can live with that, right now it just bugs the f!+# out of me. Hence the FaQ.
For Clarification, not Revision.
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Sooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?
I'd be more concerned about the alignment shift caused by three castings of this. IIRC evil characters are banned from PFS.
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Sooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?I'd be more concerned about the alignment shift caused by three castings of this. IIRC evil characters are banned from PFS.
Only if they're Neutral already.
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i wouldn't want that to happen, but I think the FAQ request has applications that go beyond that. It raises the question what the price of a wand is if the material component has two different prices.Sooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?
Wouldn't a much more reasonable FAQ request be to simply omit the Unholy Water component in favor of only a drop of Devil's Blood?
*nods*
I didn't make this FaQ for the intention of "Change this!", I made it for "WHICH IS IT?!". If th Devs state that they're no price for each I can live with that, right now it just bugs the f#*+ out of me. Hence the FaQ.
For Clarification, not Revision.
Granted pretty much all FaQs are Clarification for some, Revision for others. How much varies from FaQ to FaQ.
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Sooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?I'd be more concerned about the alignment shift caused by three castings of this. IIRC evil characters are banned from PFS.
This has been covered by Paizo more than a few times: Evil spells are not evil actions, the evil spell subtype has it's own interactions with various class abilities and in-game effects, but the act of casting an evil spell does not impact your alignment.
Mind you, doing evil things with the spell, can certainly impact your alignment, but the spell itself has no effect on alignment (some evil spells are nearly impossible to use in a non-evil capacity). The most common application of the alignment descriptor is that clerics are unable to cast spells of alignments opposed to their alignment or their deity's alignment. It isn't that they are penalized for doing so, they are totally unable.
Sooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?I'd be more concerned about the alignment shift caused by three castings of this. IIRC evil characters are banned from PFS.This has been covered by Paizo more than a few times: Evil spells are not evil actions, the evil spell subtype has it's own interactions with various class abilities and in-game effects, but the act of casting an evil spell does not impact your alignment.
Mind you, doing evil things with the spell, can certainly impact your alignment, but the spell itself has no effect on alignment (some evil spells are nearly impossible to use in a non-evil capacity). The most common application of the alignment descriptor is that clerics are unable to cast spells of alignments opposed to their alignment or their deity's alignment. It isn't that they are penalized for doing so, they are totally unable.
Ultimate Intrigue and Horror Adventures both contradict you there; they both explicitly mention that casting a spell with the evil descriptor is an evil act (and likewise casting a spell with the good descriptor is a good act). Horror Adventures even has a (stupid) sidebar that says casting any of them 3 times is enough to shift your alignment one way or the other -- I ignore that sidebar in my own games though due to it being utter nonsense (casting celestial healing 6 times shouldn't make a mass murderer suddenly Good, the amount of work to go back up should be directly related to the amount and severity of evil acts done), but PFS doesn't have that luxury.
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A mass murderer probably wouldn't want to cast celestial healing on themselves even once, the effect on their already unstable mind would definitely not be a pleasant one, that of suddenly gaining a conscious.
While a lot of people don't like that they gave a ("usually") specific number to amount of times you can cast an aligned spell before you shift it was brought on by demands of having said exact number.
Aligned spells being aligned acts have always been implicit in the history of this game, those two books just made it explicit.
What they didn't do was give ingame lore as to why they're aligned acts. It's basically you're evil/good/chaotic/lawful/neutral now, go f%+! yourself if you want a reason why. Not even a "it releases evil energy into the world" or a "causes something bad to happen to a good person", both of which would be lazy but perfectly acceptable. This is "because I said so morality" which is the worst way to go about morality.
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Aligned spells being aligned acts have always been implicit in the history of this game, those two books just made it explicit.What they didn't do was give ingame lore as to why they're aligned acts. It's basically you're evil/good/chaotic/lawful/neutral now, go f!&& yourself if you want a reason why. Not even a "it releases evil energy into the world" or a "causes something bad to happen to a good person", both of which would be lazy but perfectly acceptable. This is "because I said so morality" which is the worst way to go about morality.
Uh, they're aligned because Alignments are tangible actual forces in the universe. You're dealing in pure [insert alignment of choice] when you cast those spells.
This has been covered by Paizo more than a few times: Evil spells are not evil actions, the evil spell subtype has it's own interactions with various class abilities and in-game effects, but the act of casting an evil spell does not impact your alignment.
To the best of my knowledge, this was clarified this way only for PFS play, where alignment infractions can cause the loss of a character due to the "no evil PCs " rule and a desire to keep people from just playin with the yo-yo's of "infernal healing, prot from evil".
Expanded rules from hardback splat books such as Ultimate Intrigue & Horror Adventures have not been introduced into the greater PFS campaign (nor have similar expanded rules such as those found in the latter part of Unchained, to be fair).
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Giving a mid-week nose boop.
*boop*
Stop booping it.
I want the Bardic Masterpieces FAQ first.