[FAQ REQUEST] Infernal Healing Pricing


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Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Poor Bards :(

I don't know, they didn't do one last week but I didn't hear anything about it still being on hiatus.


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TimD wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
This has been covered by Paizo more than a few times: Evil spells are not evil actions, the evil spell subtype has it's own interactions with various class abilities and in-game effects, but the act of casting an evil spell does not impact your alignment.

To the best of my knowledge, this was clarified this way only for PFS play, where alignment infractions can cause the loss of a character due to the "no evil PCs " rule and a desire to keep people from just playin with the yo-yo's of "infernal healing, prot from evil".

Expanded rules from hardback splat books such as Ultimate Intrigue & Horror Adventures have not been introduced into the greater PFS campaign (nor have similar expanded rules such as those found in the latter part of Unchained, to be fair).

Actually, this one was elucidated upon by Sean a fair while back. It was one of those wake up moments that made start to see how Paizo reasoned about their own rules. It comes from the Magic chapter.

Quote:

The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water.

Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.

Source. Emphasis added, yada, yada

So, casting an [evil] spell has always been an evil act per the rules. They simply didn't make a big show of it in other materials and it was one of those "obvious" thing to them. Which, on this one, I can't really fault them. It's pretty black and white.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Buri Reborn wrote:
TimD wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
This has been covered by Paizo more than a few times: Evil spells are not evil actions, the evil spell subtype has it's own interactions with various class abilities and in-game effects, but the act of casting an evil spell does not impact your alignment.

To the best of my knowledge, this was clarified this way only for PFS play, where alignment infractions can cause the loss of a character due to the "no evil PCs " rule and a desire to keep people from just playin with the yo-yo's of "infernal healing, prot from evil".

Expanded rules from hardback splat books such as Ultimate Intrigue & Horror Adventures have not been introduced into the greater PFS campaign (nor have similar expanded rules such as those found in the latter part of Unchained, to be fair).

Actually, this one was elucidated upon by Sean a fair while back. It was one of those wake up moments that made start to see how Paizo reasoned about their own rules. It comes from the Magic chapter.

Quote:

The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water.

Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.

Source. Emphasis added, yada, yada

So, casting an [evil] spell has always been an evil act per the rules. They simply didn't make a big show of it in other materials and it was one of those "obvious" thing to them. Which, on this one, I can't really fault them. It's pretty black and white.

*nods*

For the longest time implicit, now explicit.

Silver Crusade

FAQ for PFS about aligned spells and their impact on players, if anyone needed a reference.

Obviously, YMMV in home games depending on the GM.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Phylotus wrote:

FAQ for PFS about aligned spells and their impact on players, if anyone needed a reference.

Obviously, YMMV in home games depending on the GM.

That was the go-to for the longest time but it's a) specifically for PFS b) it's 3 years old c) in contradiction to the newest Rulebook.

Granted it might very well stay the same for PFS.


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It would be a mistake to change it for PFS. It is a ridiculous rule whether implicit or explicit and one I shall resolutely ignore.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
dragonhunterq wrote:
It would be a mistake to change it for PFS. It is a ridiculous rule whether implicit or explicit and one I shall resolutely ignore.

That's your opinion and you're more than welcome to it.


i think the implications are pretty funny.

paladin bob is on his way master lich!

quick minions, open the emergency stash of protection from evil wands! he cant attack us if we're good!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CWheezy wrote:

i think the implications are pretty funny.

paladin bob is on his way master lich!

quick minions, open the emergency stash of protection from evil wands! he cant attack us if we're good!

Only if you have a complete and total disassociation from what alignment is.

If they tried that Paladin Bob would a Lich and Minions pushing for peace and helping out at soup kitchens rather than whatever diabolical schemes they may have wanted to do when they were evil. That or freaking the f%@* out over whatever they had done while they were evil.


Rysky wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

i think the implications are pretty funny.

paladin bob is on his way master lich!

quick minions, open the emergency stash of protection from evil wands! he cant attack us if we're good!

Only if you have a complete and total disassociation from what alignment is.

If they tried that Paladin Bob would a Lich and Minions pushing for peace and helping out at soup kitchens rather than whatever diabolical schemes they may have wanted to do when they were evil.

You could also skip the whole issue then by making the front door a magic item that casts protection from good when you touch it and auto-fall every paladin that come to you.

.... I must never let my GM know of this.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
silverrey wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

i think the implications are pretty funny.

paladin bob is on his way master lich!

quick minions, open the emergency stash of protection from evil wands! he cant attack us if we're good!

Only if you have a complete and total disassociation from what alignment is.

If they tried that Paladin Bob would a Lich and Minions pushing for peace and helping out at soup kitchens rather than whatever diabolical schemes they may have wanted to do when they were evil.

You could also skip the whole issue then by making the front door a magic item that casts protection from good when you touch item and auto-fall every paladin that come to you.

.... I must never let my GM know of this.

Well the Paladin wouldn't be casting the spell, the door is. And the door's alignment is door.

Though a trap that seethes aligned energy into is interesting, up there with the reverse gravity welcome mat and (much more appropriate for a Lich) ILW doorknob.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Cavall wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.
Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.

Oh I absolutely agree. Same with celestial. Like the blood of angels is something everyone has for no cost?

I think the reason it's given no price is because the almost certain "my aasimar just bleeds into a bucket. Let's buy that armour!" Comes up.

A aasinmar is an outsider, but lack the good subtype.

A tiefling isn't a devil and don't get the devil subtype.

Both fail as material components for Infernal and Celestial healing.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.
Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.

Oh I absolutely agree. Same with celestial. Like the blood of angels is something everyone has for no cost?

I think the reason it's given no price is because the almost certain "my aasimar just bleeds into a bucket. Let's buy that armour!" Comes up.

A assinmar is an outsider, but lack the good subtype.

A tiefling isn't a devil and don't get the devil subtype.

Both fail as material components for Infernal and Celestial healing.

Eh, that's debatable.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
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Rysky wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.
Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.

Oh I absolutely agree. Same with celestial. Like the blood of angels is something everyone has for no cost?

I think the reason it's given no price is because the almost certain "my aasimar just bleeds into a bucket. Let's buy that armour!" Comes up.

A aasinmar is an outsider, but lack the good subtype.

A tiefling isn't a devil and don't get the devil subtype.

Both fail as material components for Infernal and Celestial healing.

Eh, that's debatable.

How it is debatable?

Aasimar Medium outsider (native) - no good subtype, required by the spell.
Tiefling Medium outsider (native) - no devil subtype, required by the spell.

There is nothing to debate, the requirements are clear.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.
Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.

Oh I absolutely agree. Same with celestial. Like the blood of angels is something everyone has for no cost?

I think the reason it's given no price is because the almost certain "my aasimar just bleeds into a bucket. Let's buy that armour!" Comes up.

A aasinmar is an outsider, but lack the good subtype.

A tiefling isn't a devil and don't get the devil subtype.

Both fail as material components for Infernal and Celestial healing.

Eh, that's debatable.

How it is debatable?

Aasimar Medium outsider (native) - no good subtype, required by the spell.
Tiefling Medium outsider (native) - no devil subtype, required by the spell.

There is nothing to debate, the requirements are clear.

Uh, no.

celestial healing requires a "drop of a good outsider's blood", so even if the Aasimar doesn't have a Good alignment they still have plenty of good outsider blood in them.

infernal healing requires "a drop of devil's blood" and there is a specific bloodline for Devil descended Tieflings (Pitborn).

So yes whether the Native Outsider's blood can be used or not is highly debatable.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
MrRetsej wrote:
Sooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?
I'd be more concerned about the alignment shift caused by three castings of this. IIRC evil characters are banned from PFS.

This has been covered by Paizo more than a few times: Evil spells are not evil actions, the evil spell subtype has it's own interactions with various class abilities and in-game effects, but the act of casting an evil spell does not impact your alignment.

Mind you, doing evil things with the spell, can certainly impact your alignment, but the spell itself has no effect on alignment (some evil spells are nearly impossible to use in a non-evil capacity). The most common application of the alignment descriptor is that clerics are unable to cast spells of alignments opposed to their alignment or their deity's alignment. It isn't that they are penalized for doing so, they are totally unable.

According to one of the recent books, evil spells actually *do* shift your alignment.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
SheepishEidolon wrote:

I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.

And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.

Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).

As it give the capacity to cure wounds to classes that normally can't do it, it is not so linear.

You can as easily say that it is worth 19 skill points in use magic device (or less skill points but some trait or feat to compensate) as that is what is the "cost" of getting a 100% chance of success when using a wand of CLW if CLW isn't in your spell list.

Infernal healing is a big boon for several arcane casters.


Rysky wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Aligned spells being aligned acts have always been implicit in the history of this game, those two books just made it explicit.
What they didn't do was give ingame lore as to why they're aligned acts. It's basically you're evil/good/chaotic/lawful/neutral now, go f!&& yourself if you want a reason why. Not even a "it releases evil energy into the world" or a "causes something bad to happen to a good person", both of which would be lazy but perfectly acceptable. This is "because I said so morality" which is the worst way to go about morality.
Uh, they're aligned because Alignments are tangible actual forces in the universe. You're dealing in pure [insert alignment of choice] when you cast those spells.

The problem is its not clear if this actually influences behavior. Sure, I detect as good now, but does my character suddenly have a conscious?

Should the GM pull me aside and tell me I am playing my character incorrectly because I am acting good on a character that cast infernal healing too many times? Or do I just have a good alignment while I am still a bad person?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:

I am pretty sure it's intended to be 0gp. Because on the one hand the power level of the spell is roughly en par with Cure Light Wounds.

And on the other hand it doesn't list a price for the 'dose of unholy water'. Usually they don't expect people to check other books for component prices.

Finally, on the third hand (because eidolon), it would be quite odd to have two different prices. Can't remember another case like this (but I didn't max out Int, so feel free to correct me).

Didn't even occur to me. Yeah, Eidolons now have subtypes, so their blood could potentially qualify for this. Suggestion to Paizo, eliminate the drop of devil blood reference, and just require the Unholy water. Way easier and eliminates the potential issue with Devil Eidolons giving out free spell components.

They are summoned creatures, when the summoner go to sleep they disappear and all their parts disappear with them.

I doubt that you can use something that isn't completely here as a material component for a spell.
Maybe it could work if the eidolon blood is used while it is present and summoned, but surely it can't be stored for the next day.


Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

You have a point if it say "good outsider", but they do not have devil's blood, and there is nothing to back that statement up. They have teifling blood since a teifling is its own creature type. At best they have devil genetics, but that is not a factor for the spell.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
johnlocke90 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Aligned spells being aligned acts have always been implicit in the history of this game, those two books just made it explicit.
What they didn't do was give ingame lore as to why they're aligned acts. It's basically you're evil/good/chaotic/lawful/neutral now, go f!&& yourself if you want a reason why. Not even a "it releases evil energy into the world" or a "causes something bad to happen to a good person", both of which would be lazy but perfectly acceptable. This is "because I said so morality" which is the worst way to go about morality.
Uh, they're aligned because Alignments are tangible actual forces in the universe. You're dealing in pure [insert alignment of choice] when you cast those spells.
The problem is its not clear if this actually influences behavior. Sure, I detect as good now, but does my character suddenly have a conscious?

Yes.

johnlocke90 wrote:
Should the GM pull me aside and tell me I am playing my character incorrectly because I am acting good on a character that cast infernal healing too many times? Or do I just have a good alignment while I am still a bad person?

You now have a very conflicting mindset.

Actions determine alignment, not he other way around, until magic gets involved.

Choosing to cast an aligned spell affects your alignment as well.

I don't like to bring up the analogy but it fits, you spam Force Lighting and you go to the Dark Side.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

You have a point if it say "good outsider", but they do not have devil's blood, and there is nothing to back that statement up. They have teifling blood since a teifling is its own creature type. At best they have devil genetics, but that is not a factor for the spell.

-_-

Okay then what Sorcerers/Bloodragers with the Infernal Bloodline?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

Beside the little fact that devil and good celestial have a specific meaning in the game rules, and that isn't "creatures with an ancestor of that kind", at least check your sources when you cite something.

Pitborns have Demon ancestors.
You want the Hellspawn, those have devil ancestors.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

Beside the little fact that devil and good celestial have a specific meaning in the game rules, and that isn't "creatures with an ancestor of that kind", at least check your sources when you cite something.

Pitborns have Demon ancestors.
You want the Hellspawn, those have devil ancestors.

Huh, coulda sworn that Pitborn were the Devil Descended (Hell=Pit)

*shrugs*

Even if you go off that you need a full on Devil and not something with Devil's blood in it there's still Celestial Healing which requires "good outsider" blood, not a celestial. Would a Couatl not work?


Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

You have a point if it say "good outsider", but they do not have devil's blood, and there is nothing to back that statement up. They have teifling blood since a teifling is its own creature type. At best they have devil genetics, but that is not a factor for the spell.

-_-

Okay then what Sorcerers/Bloodragers with the Infernal Bloodline?

Same as my previous statement, just like sorcerers with the dragon bloodline don't have dragon blood in them. They just had a dragon in their ancestry.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

You have a point if it say "good outsider", but they do not have devil's blood, and there is nothing to back that statement up. They have teifling blood since a teifling is its own creature type. At best they have devil genetics, but that is not a factor for the spell.

-_-

Okay then what Sorcerers/Bloodragers with the Infernal Bloodline?

Same as my previous statement, just like sorcerers with the dragon bloodline don't have dragon blood in them. They just had a dragon in their ancestry.

We're going to severely disagree on this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

You have a point if it say "good outsider", but they do not have devil's blood, and there is nothing to back that statement up. They have teifling blood since a teifling is its own creature type. At best they have devil genetics, but that is not a factor for the spell.

-_-

Okay then what Sorcerers/Bloodragers with the Infernal Bloodline?

This has gone way off topic, but...

Tiefling's (nor sorcerers nor blood rangers) don't have devil's blood running through their veins to take drops any more than my mother's blood is running through my veins.

The outsider traits also occur sporadically in the descendants. You wouldn't say you could get devil's blood from the human parents, would you?


Rysky wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

Beside the little fact that devil and good celestial have a specific meaning in the game rules, and that isn't "creatures with an ancestor of that kind", at least check your sources when you cite something.

Pitborns have Demon ancestors.
You want the Hellspawn, those have devil ancestors.

Huh, coulda sworn that Pitborn were the Devil Descended (Hell=Pit)

*shrugs*

Even if you go off that you need a full on Devil and not something with Devil's blood in it there's still Celestial Healing which requires "good outsider" blood, not a celestial. Would a Couatl not work?

There is no cost associated so it will be in a spell component pouch, so it's really a nonissue. The only reason this is even being FAQ'd is because people are assuming a "dose" could be the same as "flask", which actually has a listed price.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

Beside the little fact that devil and good celestial have a specific meaning in the game rules, and that isn't "creatures with an ancestor of that kind", at least check your sources when you cite something.

Pitborns have Demon ancestors.
You want the Hellspawn, those have devil ancestors.

Huh, coulda sworn that Pitborn were the Devil Descended (Hell=Pit)

*shrugs*

Even if you go off that you need a full on Devil and not something with Devil's blood in it there's still Celestial Healing which requires "good outsider" blood, not a celestial. Would a Couatl not work?

It really all depends on if you read that as needing a good outsider, or a [Good][Outsider]. I think both are reasonable interpretations. At my table I will go with the latter.


Rysky wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Aligned spells being aligned acts have always been implicit in the history of this game, those two books just made it explicit.
What they didn't do was give ingame lore as to why they're aligned acts. It's basically you're evil/good/chaotic/lawful/neutral now, go f!&& yourself if you want a reason why. Not even a "it releases evil energy into the world" or a "causes something bad to happen to a good person", both of which would be lazy but perfectly acceptable. This is "because I said so morality" which is the worst way to go about morality.
Uh, they're aligned because Alignments are tangible actual forces in the universe. You're dealing in pure [insert alignment of choice] when you cast those spells.
The problem is its not clear if this actually influences behavior. Sure, I detect as good now, but does my character suddenly have a conscious?

Yes.

johnlocke90 wrote:
Should the GM pull me aside and tell me I am playing my character incorrectly because I am acting good on a character that cast infernal healing too many times? Or do I just have a good alignment while I am still a bad person?

You now have a very conflicting mindset.

Actions determine alignment, not he other way around, until magic gets involved.

Choosing to cast an aligned spell affects your alignment as well.

I don't like to bring up the analogy but it fits, you spam Force Lighting and you go to the Dark Side.

But then we have to look at how this is supposed to work as a game.

When a characters alignment shifts from too much infernal healing and the character keeps acting good, does the GM pull the player aside and tell him he is RPing incorrectly?


Rysky wrote:

...

Actions determine alignment, not he other way around, until magic gets involved.

Choosing to cast an aligned spell affects your alignment as well.

I don't like to bring up the analogy but it fits, you spam Force Lighting and you go to the Dark Side.

Where in the rules does it say that changing alignment affects your future behavior?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

You have a point if it say "good outsider", but they do not have devil's blood, and there is nothing to back that statement up. They have teifling blood since a teifling is its own creature type. At best they have devil genetics, but that is not a factor for the spell.

-_-

Okay then what Sorcerers/Bloodragers with the Infernal Bloodline?

Same as my previous statement, just like sorcerers with the dragon bloodline don't have dragon blood in them. They just had a dragon in their ancestry.
We're going to severely disagree on this.

There's actually a blog post and an entire book (Legacy of Dragons) that says wraith strike is correct.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Rysky wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

Beside the little fact that devil and good celestial have a specific meaning in the game rules, and that isn't "creatures with an ancestor of that kind", at least check your sources when you cite something.

Pitborns have Demon ancestors.
You want the Hellspawn, those have devil ancestors.

Huh, coulda sworn that Pitborn were the Devil Descended (Hell=Pit)

*shrugs*

Even if you go off that you need a full on Devil and not something with Devil's blood in it there's still Celestial Healing which requires "good outsider" blood, not a celestial. Would a Couatl not work?

Couatl LG Large outsider (native)

Again, no good subtype, so, no.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
johnlocke90 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Aligned spells being aligned acts have always been implicit in the history of this game, those two books just made it explicit.
What they didn't do was give ingame lore as to why they're aligned acts. It's basically you're evil/good/chaotic/lawful/neutral now, go f!&& yourself if you want a reason why. Not even a "it releases evil energy into the world" or a "causes something bad to happen to a good person", both of which would be lazy but perfectly acceptable. This is "because I said so morality" which is the worst way to go about morality.
Uh, they're aligned because Alignments are tangible actual forces in the universe. You're dealing in pure [insert alignment of choice] when you cast those spells.
The problem is its not clear if this actually influences behavior. Sure, I detect as good now, but does my character suddenly have a conscious?

Yes.

johnlocke90 wrote:
Should the GM pull me aside and tell me I am playing my character incorrectly because I am acting good on a character that cast infernal healing too many times? Or do I just have a good alignment while I am still a bad person?

You now have a very conflicting mindset.

Actions determine alignment, not he other way around, until magic gets involved.

Choosing to cast an aligned spell affects your alignment as well.

I don't like to bring up the analogy but it fits, you spam Force Lighting and you go to the Dark Side.

But then we have to look at how this is supposed to work as a game.

When a characters alignment shifts from too much infernal healing and the character keeps acting good, does the GM pull the player aside and tell him he is RPing incorrectly?

No, the GM should tell the player that they probably have a bunch of evil thoughts floating around in there with the good.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Snowblind wrote:
Rysky wrote:

...

Actions determine alignment, not he other way around, until magic gets involved.

Choosing to cast an aligned spell affects your alignment as well.

I don't like to bring up the analogy but it fits, you spam Force Lighting and you go to the Dark Side.

Where in the rules does it say that changing alignment affects your future behavior?

Why wouldn't it?

Alignment isn't meaningless letters you write into your paper just so you if you can use Ability A or Ability B.


Diego Rossi wrote:

...

Couatl LG Large outsider (native)

Again, no good subtype, so, no.

The subtlety here is that a Good outsider != an outsider with the Good subtype. Unlike the devil blooded tiefling, who wouldn't qualify for a feat with Prerequisite:Devil, an Aasimar would qualify as a Good outsider so long as they were a) an outsider (no problem there), and Good (probably no problem there either, given their natural disposition). The Good subtype isn't a requirement.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

Beside the little fact that devil and good celestial have a specific meaning in the game rules, and that isn't "creatures with an ancestor of that kind", at least check your sources when you cite something.

Pitborns have Demon ancestors.
You want the Hellspawn, those have devil ancestors.

Huh, coulda sworn that Pitborn were the Devil Descended (Hell=Pit)

*shrugs*

Even if you go off that you need a full on Devil and not something with Devil's blood in it there's still Celestial Healing which requires "good outsider" blood, not a celestial. Would a Couatl not work?

Couatl LG Large outsider (native)

Again, no good subtype, so, no.

As Mahtobedis pointed out, this would depend on whether you need a Good Outsider or a good Outsider.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

You have a point if it say "good outsider", but they do not have devil's blood, and there is nothing to back that statement up. They have teifling blood since a teifling is its own creature type. At best they have devil genetics, but that is not a factor for the spell.

-_-

Okay then what Sorcerers/Bloodragers with the Infernal Bloodline?

Same as my previous statement, just like sorcerers with the dragon bloodline don't have dragon blood in them. They just had a dragon in their ancestry.
We're going to severely disagree on this.
There's actually a blog post and an entire book (Legacy of Dragons) that says wraith strike is correct.

Un, where?

What I gleamed from Legacy is that in instances where there were actual dragon descendants that you did have diluted dragon blood. Saying you don't have any dragon blood in you despite having dragon ancestry is kinda nonsensical.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Snowblind wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

...

Couatl LG Large outsider (native)

Again, no good subtype, so, no.

The subtlety here is that a Good outsider != an outsider with the Good subtype. Unlike the devil blooded tiefling, who wouldn't qualify for a feat with Prerequisite:Devil, an Aasimar would qualify as a Good outsider so long as they were a) an outsider (no problem there), and Good (probably no problem there either, given their natural disposition). The Good subtype isn't a requirement.

*nods*


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mahtobedis wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

Beside the little fact that devil and good celestial have a specific meaning in the game rules, and that isn't "creatures with an ancestor of that kind", at least check your sources when you cite something.

Pitborns have Demon ancestors.
You want the Hellspawn, those have devil ancestors.

Huh, coulda sworn that Pitborn were the Devil Descended (Hell=Pit)

*shrugs*

Even if you go off that you need a full on Devil and not something with Devil's blood in it there's still Celestial Healing which requires "good outsider" blood, not a celestial. Would a Couatl not work?

It really all depends on if you read that as needing a good outsider, or a [Good][Outsider]. I think both are reasonable interpretations. At my table I will go with the latter.

Actually, in Rysky's defense when mentioning the subtype it is always written in a specific way. You can do what you want in your home games, but for official purposes it reads as "good outsider" not "outside with the good subtype".

edit: Since I actually took the time to look the spell up myself and stop accepting cut off quotes refer to my next post where I change my stance.


Rysky wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Rysky wrote:

...

Actions determine alignment, not he other way around, until magic gets involved.

Choosing to cast an aligned spell affects your alignment as well.

I don't like to bring up the analogy but it fits, you spam Force Lighting and you go to the Dark Side.

Where in the rules does it say that changing alignment affects your future behavior?

Why wouldn't it?

Alignment isn't meaningless letters you write into your paper just so you if you can use Ability A or Ability B.

"a bunch of evil thoughts floating around in there with the good." sounds meaningless to me.

Its basically hand-waving away alignment as those thoughts will never be felt by the player or(if the player continues to play the character as good) represented in game.


After reading the text of celestial healing it says

"You anoint a wounded creature with the blood of an outsider with the good subtype(such as an angel)"

That means aasimars will not work.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

After reading the text of celestial healing it says

"You anoint a wounded creature with the blood of an outsider with the good subtype(such as an angel)"

That means aasimars will not work.

Ah, okay then, what I get for just looking at the component line >_<


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

You have a point if it say "good outsider", but they do not have devil's blood, and there is nothing to back that statement up. They have teifling blood since a teifling is its own creature type. At best they have devil genetics, but that is not a factor for the spell.

-_-

Okay then what Sorcerers/Bloodragers with the Infernal Bloodline?

Same as my previous statement, just like sorcerers with the dragon bloodline don't have dragon blood in them. They just had a dragon in their ancestry.
We're going to severely disagree on this.
There's actually a blog post and an entire book (Legacy of Dragons) that says wraith strike is correct.

Un, where?

What I gleamed from Legacy is that in instances where there were actual dragon descendants that you did have diluted dragon blood. Saying you don't have any dragon blood in you despite having dragon ancestry is kinda nonsensical.

More than Blood

Legacy of Dragons, pg 2. "...few are connected by something as simple as blood."


Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

After reading the text of celestial healing it says

"You anoint a wounded creature with the blood of an outsider with the good subtype(such as an angel)"

That means aasimars will not work.

Ah, okay then, what I get for just looking at the component line >_<

They also should have written it better.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
johnlocke90 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Rysky wrote:

...

Actions determine alignment, not he other way around, until magic gets involved.

Choosing to cast an aligned spell affects your alignment as well.

I don't like to bring up the analogy but it fits, you spam Force Lighting and you go to the Dark Side.

Where in the rules does it say that changing alignment affects your future behavior?

Why wouldn't it?

Alignment isn't meaningless letters you write into your paper just so you if you can use Ability A or Ability B.

"a bunch of evil thoughts floating around in there with the good." sounds meaningless to me.

Its basically hand-waving away alignment as those thoughts will never be felt by the player or(if the player continues to play the character as good) represented in game.

If you just hand-wave away alignment then this all moot anyway.

That's where it's the GM job to enforce when someone is acting outside of what their alignment is. Constantly committing evil acts and ignoring would make evil, or with this disregard CN possibly.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Anything is debatable, that does not mean there is no clear cut answer just because someone chooses to debate it. In this case DR has given factual statements.

Again, not really. The spells say "good outsider" and "devil's blood".

They don't say Good Subtype or Devil Subtype, or name a specific creature of that type.

Devil descended Tieflings have devil blood in them. Aasimar's have celestial blood in them.

You have a point if it say "good outsider", but they do not have devil's blood, and there is nothing to back that statement up. They have teifling blood since a teifling is its own creature type. At best they have devil genetics, but that is not a factor for the spell.

-_-

Okay then what Sorcerers/Bloodragers with the Infernal Bloodline?

Same as my previous statement, just like sorcerers with the dragon bloodline don't have dragon blood in them. They just had a dragon in their ancestry.
We're going to severely disagree on this.
There's actually a blog post and an entire book (Legacy of Dragons) that says wraith strike is correct.

Un, where?

What I gleamed from Legacy is that in instances where there were actual dragon descendants that you did have diluted dragon blood. Saying you don't have any dragon blood in you despite having dragon ancestry is kinda nonsensical.

More than Blood

Legacy of Dragons, pg 2. "...few are connected by something as simple as blood."

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Rysky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

After reading the text of celestial healing it says

"You anoint a wounded creature with the blood of an outsider with the good subtype(such as an angel)"

That means aasimars will not work.

Ah, okay then, what I get for just looking at the component line >_<
They also should have written it better.

Eh, yeah.

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