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I wasn't advocating for the "limiting" of actions. But if I person has one alignment down but only acts another then I'd find that odd and (with talking with the player first to see if it wasn't just acting on the character's part) have things affect them on how they acted, rather than on what they wrote down.
You can act however you want in-game, your alignment will follow.
I see it as the wand casting the spell, but since the deity of the character may not like infernal healing he may still get penalized by his deity for using the wand.
If it's the wand casting the spell, then why stop at wands of Infernal Healing? Pull out the wands of Animate Dead, and cast freely! A Paladin of Abadar could summon an army of zombies to aid him in his crusade against chaos, and he wouldn't fall since it's not him who willingly did the evil act, it's the wand!
If it's the wand casting the spell, then why stop at wands of Infernal Healing? Pull out the wands of Animate Dead, and cast freely! A Paladin of Abadar could summon an army of zombies to aid him in his crusade against chaos, and he wouldn't fall since it's not him who willingly did the evil act, it's the wand!
I am only saying the wand is the caster, but if someone activates the wand they are still guilty of an evil act.
As an example a good divine can't(literally) cast certain spells. He can get around it by using a wand, but his deity, while not granting the use of the spell still won't be happy about it because he just did "insert evil thing" with an item, instead of with his own spell power.
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As Mahtobedis pointed out, this would depend on whether you need a Good Outsider or a good Outsider.
Text of the spell Celestial Healing:
You anoint a wounded creature with the blood of an outsider with the good subtype (such as an angel) or holy water, giving it fast healing 1. The target radiates the aura of a good creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the righteousness of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment. If the target has its own evil aura, this is not suppressed by celestial healing, and can also be detected normally.
So the spell specify that you need the good subtype.
You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood
Infernal healing only say devil, but a devil is a specific subtype of outsider with the Devil, Evil, Extraplanar and Lawful subtypes.
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If it's the wand casting the spell, then why stop at wands of Infernal Healing? Pull out the wands of Animate Dead, and cast freely! A Paladin of Abadar could summon an army of zombies to aid him in his crusade against chaos, and he wouldn't fall since it's not him who willingly did the evil act, it's the wand!I am only saying the wand is the caster, but if someone activates the wand they are still guilty of an evil act.
As an example a good divine can't(literally) cast certain spells. He can get around it by using a wand, but his deity, while not granting the use of the spell still won't be happy about it because he just did "insert evil thing" with an item, instead of with his own spell power.
Horror Adventures did address this and said Divine casters trying to "cheat" by using things like wands would indeed fall.
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Horror Adventures did address this and said Divine casters trying to "cheat" by using things like wands would indeed fall.If it's the wand casting the spell, then why stop at wands of Infernal Healing? Pull out the wands of Animate Dead, and cast freely! A Paladin of Abadar could summon an army of zombies to aid him in his crusade against chaos, and he wouldn't fall since it's not him who willingly did the evil act, it's the wand!I am only saying the wand is the caster, but if someone activates the wand they are still guilty of an evil act.
As an example a good divine can't(literally) cast certain spells. He can get around it by using a wand, but his deity, while not granting the use of the spell still won't be happy about it because he just did "insert evil thing" with an item, instead of with his own spell power.
That is what I figured should happen, and that is what I would do as a GM.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts. <thumbs up>
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So, for the record, if a LN or LE ex-paladin is casting good aligned spells, say from a wand, how many times do they have to cast it to become LG again?
"Oh, Paladin Joe, you gleefully butchered those innocents, go sit in the corner and bless water with this wand until you rember what being good is..."
He'd return to being LG fast enough (or too fast, depending on your personal opinion). But he'd still need that Atonement spell to get his Paladin powers back.
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So, for the record, if a LN or LE ex-paladin is casting good aligned spells, say from a wand, how many times do they have to cast it to become LG again?
"Oh, Paladin Joe, you gleefully butchered those innocents, go sit in the corner and bless water with this wand until you rember what being good is..."
A better question is how a nutjob like that became a Paladin in the first place.
[The FAQ is] in contradiction to the newest Rulebook.
Indeed, but at least it doesn't contradict itself.
"A wizard who uses animate dead to create guardians for defenseless people won’t turn evil, but he will if he does it over and over again. (...) [T]ypically casting two evil spells is enough to turn a good creature nongood, and three or more evils spells move the caster from nongood to evil"
Emphasis mine. In what universe does the term "over and over again" mean two or three times?
Even if I'd accept that 2-3 casts is RAW, then "over and over again" is clearly RAI.Also, regarding a prior argument: I think Infernal Healing and Celestial Healing aren't the spells that need their material line changed to include a value, but Transformation is!
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[The FAQ is] in contradiction to the newest Rulebook.Indeed, but at least it doesn't contradict itself.
"A wizard who uses animate dead to create guardians for defenseless people won’t turn evil, but he will if he does it over and over again. (...) [T]ypically casting two evil spells is enough to turn a good creature nongood, and three or more evils spells move the caster from nongood to evil"Emphasis mine. In what universe does the term "over and over again" mean two or three times?
Even if I'd accept that 2-3 casts is RAW, then "over and over again" is clearly RAI.Also, regarding a prior argument: I think Infernal Healing and Celestial Healing aren't the spells that need their material line changed to include a value, but Transformation is!
I think 3-5 is more than fair for meaning "over and over".
Apparently "over and over" is considered rules text now.
Ultimate Intrigue and Horror Adventures both contradict you there; they both explicitly mention that casting a spell with the evil descriptor is an evil act (and likewise casting a spell with the good descriptor is a good act). Horror Adventures even has a (stupid) sidebar that says casting any of them 3 times is enough to shift your alignment one way or the otherSooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?I'd be more concerned about the alignment shift caused by three castings of this. IIRC evil characters are banned from PFS.This has been covered by Paizo more than a few times: Evil spells are not evil actions, the evil spell subtype has it's own interactions with various class abilities and in-game effects, but the act of casting an evil spell does not impact your alignment.
Mind you, doing evil things with the spell, can certainly impact your alignment, but the spell itself has no effect on alignment (some evil spells are nearly impossible to use in a non-evil capacity). The most common application of the alignment descriptor is that clerics are unable to cast spells of alignments opposed to their alignment or their deity's alignment. It isn't that they are penalized for doing so, they are totally unable.
Remember to shift character alignments towards good every time they cast Protection from Evil.
Yes, you too can run a party full of good aligned murder hobos and serial killers, as long as they carry wands of Protection from Evil.
Deliver us from evil, oh wise and holy wand!
I mean, it makes some sense for Protection from [X] to ward away some of the X in your soul. But that doesn't work if it's the caster, not the recipient, that undergoes the most change.
One of my characters, a Lawful Neutral (leaning good, but only leaning) monk, is utterly terrified of losing to the chaos within, and drinks potions of Protection from Chaos expressly to drive it out and become more Lawful.
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Ultimate Intrigue and Horror Adventures both contradict you there; they both explicitly mention that casting a spell with the evil descriptor is an evil act (and likewise casting a spell with the good descriptor is a good act). Horror Adventures even has a (stupid) sidebar that says casting any of them 3 times is enough to shift your alignment one way or the otherSooooo, you want to take a spell that is currently a 750 gp wand and turn it into a 2000gp wand. You realize this would have a **massively** detrimental effect to thousands of PFS players, right?I'd be more concerned about the alignment shift caused by three castings of this. IIRC evil characters are banned from PFS.This has been covered by Paizo more than a few times: Evil spells are not evil actions, the evil spell subtype has it's own interactions with various class abilities and in-game effects, but the act of casting an evil spell does not impact your alignment.
Mind you, doing evil things with the spell, can certainly impact your alignment, but the spell itself has no effect on alignment (some evil spells are nearly impossible to use in a non-evil capacity). The most common application of the alignment descriptor is that clerics are unable to cast spells of alignments opposed to their alignment or their deity's alignment. It isn't that they are penalized for doing so, they are totally unable.
Remember to shift character alignments towards good every time they cast Protection from Evil.
Yes, you too can run a party full of good aligned murder hobos and serial killers, as long as they carry wands of Protection from Evil.
Either they wouldn't be serial killers because they're now good, or they're still evil because the castings aren't enough to overcome all the evil they've done.
"Serial killer" is more a descriptor or title than it is a way of life. Somebody who did enough murders to qualify for being called one, but after the last one had an epiphany and wanted to repent, would still be a serial killer in definition, even if they are now good and trying to make up for it.
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Yeah, I'm not a fan of magic items that force alignment change, and having spells that do so it equally annoying. A character's alignment should be reflected in how they role play, not in what spells they cast. That PFS FAQ approach, wether legal or not, is exactly how alignment spells should affect alignment - it's what you do with the spell, not what the spell is.
Cursing water to sell as a Cleric of Abadar, should not warrant alignment alteration. Just like blessing water shouldn't make you more good. And it should go without saying, using good spells to harm innocents should count towards evil, not good.
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Yeah, I'm not a fan of magic items that force alignment change, and having spells that do so it equally annoying. A character's alignment should be reflected in how they role play, not in what spells they cast. That PFS FAQ approach, wether legal or not, is exactly how alignment spells should affect alignment - it's what you do with the spell, not what the spell is.
Cursing water to sell as a Cleric of Abadar, should not warrant alignment alteration. Just like blessing water shouldn't make you more good. And it should go without saying, using good spells to harm innocents should count towards evil, not good.
Having one doesn't remove any capability of the other.
Using a good spell (good act) to harm innocents (evil act).
Using an evil spell (evil spell) to harm innocents (evil act).
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"Serial killer" is more a descriptor or title than it is a way of life. Somebody who did enough murders to qualify for being called one, but after the last one had an epiphany and wanted to repent, would still be a serial killer in definition, even if they are now good and trying to make up for it.
True, but serial killer gets thrown around enough that I used it in that sense. My bad.
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I dunno, if saving innocents with animate dead is enough to get you evil than killing random NPCs with holy smite making you good seems like a likely outcome.
Have I mentioned this rule is b%~@#%~&?
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I dunno, if saving innocents with animate dead is enough to get you evil than killing random NPCs with holy smite making you good seems like a likely outcome.
Have I mentioned this rule is b@*$+~~*?
Those all have alignment actions in and of themself, it's not just the sum total. Animating dead? Evil. Saving an innocent? Good. Saving another innocent? Good. And on and on.
... why does a Good aligned person know animate dead anyway?
The reason the casting of the spells is an aligned act is simply for the fact that you're channeling pure, tangible alignment when you do so. Good and Evil are actual, physical things in the game of Pathfinder.
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"Serial killer" is more a descriptor or title than it is a way of life. Somebody who did enough murders to qualify for being called one, but after the last one had an epiphany and wanted to repent, would still be a serial killer in definition, even if they are now good and trying to make up for it.
It depends on the person. Often, I think it's just something the news uses to make murders seem more exciting.
That said, some times an individual puts enough effort into something, where it is more than just a descriptor or a title, but actually their way of life and career. H. H. Holmes, in example, is a serial killer in more than just title.
As for repenting, serial killer when used in a lawful capacity is referencing criminal behaviour based on past actions. They could be repent and be a former serial killer, but they are still a serial killer in that respect. Granted, if they never mention their past, you could just know them as that nice guy (or as Paladin Joe). Though I suppose, if they were falsely accused, they could redeem their serial killer status by proving their innocence.
As an aside, being a serial killer doesn't make them inherently evil. It does make them inherently unlawful, but the law doesn't always take into account the struggles of good and evil. For example, if a city gave equal rights to Evil Outsiders and Humans alike, a NG cleric could very easily become a serial killer.
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I'm a fan of aligned spells being aligned acts but I think the new sidebar rule goes too far. Casting infernal healing is an evil act to me, and it's not something that a good character should want to do, but doing so seems about as evil as not tipping at a restaurant. A CG character who is a bad tipper isn't suddenly sliding into evil, they just have a character flaw. A NG magus who loves using infernal healing might get a disapproving frown from a nearby paladin or good cleric but isn't about to gut an orphan.
Personally, no good character I play would choose to use infernal healing. Who knows what dark forces or fell influences you're introducing into someone's injured system with each casting. No thanks.
Conversely, a lich who eats souls like I eat potato chips isn't suddenly going to be redeemed by a few castings of protection from evil. I actually imagine casting such a spell might be singularly unpleasant for a truly evil individual, possibly allowing them to empathize with all the suffering they've caused for a brief instant.
Flavor may vary, obviously.
... why does a Good aligned person know animate dead anyway?
Ask the writers for the rulebook, they're the ones that used it as an example in the first place.
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Hot take: my only issue with the sidebar is that it affects all alignments equally. I like it for evil, but I'm not sure how I feel about law and chaos, and I definitely don't like it for good.
That's just me, though. ^_^
Having specificied amounts of alignment movement for each spell would be a way to solve that, but it's in no way practical for any book.
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... why does a Good aligned person know animate dead anyway?Ask the writers for the rulebook, they're the ones that used it as an example in the first place.
Definitely not the first place. Which is why they probably did use it as an example, since it's an example that's been thrown around forever, way before Horror Adventures was written.
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As an aside, being a serial killer doesn't make them inherently evil. It does make them inherently unlawful, but the law doesn't always take into account the struggles of good and evil. For example, if a city gave equal rights to Evil Outsiders and Humans alike, a NG cleric could very easily become a serial killer.
... How?
If you go around killing Evil creatures and people just for existing you're not really NG, not by a long shot.
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... why does a Good aligned person know animate dead anyway?Ask the writers for the rulebook, they're the ones that used it as an example in the first place.
There are GOOD deities with the Death Domain. That's the easiest example.
Sort of like, why does a Cleric of Urgathoa know "Bless Water?" It's because it's on the Divine Subdomain spell list, and that's one of her subdomains.
@Ryric: Not even my neutral characters use that spell. There are evil spells that I'd use, but infernal healing isn't on my list. Curse Water, for example, can be a very practical spell to use as a Neutrally aligned character. Protection from Good, too. Neither of those spells strike me as inherently evil actions. And there are Good Aligned outsiders that shoot first and ask questions later...
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I wonder the same thing about infernal healing all the time.
... why does a Good aligned person know animate dead anyway?
Because it's alluring in its power and its ability to heal as a wizard spell.
As a creation of Asmodeus, it's a work of art. ^_^
Despite what people think it's for this very reason that I absolutely adore the spell.
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There are GOOD deities with the Death Domain. That's the easiest example.... why does a Good aligned person know animate dead anyway?Ask the writers for the rulebook, they're the ones that used it as an example in the first place.
Paizo did release a non-pro undead alternate Death Domain to take care of that.
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Paizo did release a non-pro undead alternate Death Domain to take care of that.There are GOOD deities with the Death Domain. That's the easiest example.... why does a Good aligned person know animate dead anyway?Ask the writers for the rulebook, they're the ones that used it as an example in the first place.
Only for Pharasma. And she's neutral anyway. Though in hindsight, I can't recall which Good deities (if any) have the death domain. I may have been thinking of the Darkness Domain, which a handful of Good deities have, despite it being an evil only thing in the CRB.
You can get the Death Domain with one or two of the Druid archetypes, with no alignment restrictions (beyond normal druid restrictions). The Undead bloodline for the sorcerer also gains animate dead without any alignment requirement. Oracle Bones Mystery too.
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Paizo did release a non-pro undead alternate Death Domain to take care of that.There are GOOD deities with the Death Domain. That's the easiest example.... why does a Good aligned person know animate dead anyway?Ask the writers for the rulebook, they're the ones that used it as an example in the first place.Only for Pharasma. And she's neutral anyway. Though in hindsight, I can't recall which Good deities (if any) have the death domain. I may have been thinking of the Darkness Domain, which a handful of Good deities have, despite it being an evil only thing in the CRB.
You can get the Death Domain with one or two of the Druid archetypes, with no alignment restrictions. The Undead bloodline for the sorcerer also gains animate dead without any alignment requirement. Oracle Bones Mystery too.
Unless your class that gets its spells from a Deity then there isn't an alignment requirement to cast aligned spells (unless it calls it out in the spell itself).
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Unless your class that gets its spells from a Deity then there isn't an alignment requirement to cast aligned spells (unless it calls it out in the spell itself).
Agree. But the question I was addressing is, "why a good aligned character would even know a spell like animate dead." A NG druid with the Death Domain, in example, would know animate dead, even if they be very unlikely to ever cast it. Though I have considered that to Druids, Animate dead, and create undead, could be reskinned as "Animate Potting Soil" and "Create Mobile Potting Soil." Zombies only, of course. More a joke than a serious thing.
I can also picture a Good aligned wizard wanting to learn evil spells just to understand their limitations and how to better counter them. More of a role playing reason.
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Despite what people think it's for this very reason that I absolutely adore the spell.I wonder the same thing about infernal healing all the time.
... why does a Good aligned person know animate dead anyway?
Because it's alluring in its power and its ability to heal as a wizard spell.
As a creation of Asmodeus, it's a work of art. ^_^
Oh yes it's a wonderfully designed temptation spell. So often so-called temptations are really easy for players to resist.
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The better question is why not? We don't have an explanation as to why animated a wolf skeleton is evil. Skeletons make very good minions or even simple manual labor.Unless your class that gets its spells from a Deity then there isn't an alignment requirement to cast aligned spells (unless it calls it out in the spell itself).Agree. But the question I was addressing is, "why a good aligned character would even know a spell like animate dead." A NG druid with the Death Domain, in example, would know animate dead, even if they be very unlikely to ever cast it. Though I have considered that to Druids, Animate dead, and create undead, could be reskinned as "Animate Potting Soil" and "Create Mobile Potting Soil." Zombies only, of course. More a joke than a serious thing.
I can also picture a Good aligned wizard wanting to learn evil spells just to understand their limitations and how to better counter them. More of a role playing reason.
Because creating undead is evil.
Always has been.
Isn't there an entry somewhere that says that everyone aside from those kids that get tossed into the wild and are raised by animals know creating undead is an evil act?