[FAQ REQUEST] Infernal Healing Pricing


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Silver Crusade

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The components for the spell are "1 drop of devil blood or 1 dose of unholy water".
Now, unholy water costs 25g, whereas there is no listed price for a "drop" of devil blood, which has lead to two assumptions about it.

The first, that unholy water costs 25g so therefore the devil blood must also cost a similar amount and thus not being subject to the eschew materials feat/spell component pouch (and would mean a wand of infernal healing would cost 2,000g).

The second is that since there is no price listed for devil blood then the spell qualifies for eschew materials/spell component pouch, but creates a disconnect in why the unholy water was given as a material component if the other option is covered by the above options.

Which is correct?


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I don't care but I flagged it anyway.

keeps hammering FAQ button.

Silver Crusade

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Thanks? :3

Liberty's Edge

14 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Another related FAQ request

Can a creature gain the effects of Fast Healing from a spell, such as from Infernal Healing, when they normally do not heal naturally?

This is in relation to Undead, Constructs and Eidolons.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I would say so for Undead and Eidolons (there's a couple of undead that come with Fast Healing already, I.e. Vampires).

Constructs? *shrugs*


There is also now celestial healing which is similar except duration and has holy water as an optional component (rather than the blood of a good outsider).

Celestial Healing

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Eidolons also have access to a Fast Healing Evolution.

And Undead can be healed by Inflict spells and Eidolons can be healed by Cure spells.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

My players have asked about this a few times. I ruled it a negligible cost. Holy water comes in 1 pint flasks, not doses. I decides a dose was a few drops/sprinkling.

But it is a FAQ at my table.


I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

*nods*

But with a dose being "a quantity of" instead of "a quantity" in and of itself 1 pint could very well be one dose.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.

Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.


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Tammy found Imp cages the real hidden cost.

Silver Crusade

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Tammerine "Tammy" Dragontoe wrote:
Tammy found Imp cages the real hidden cost.

Those do add up after awhile.


Otherwise you gotta hire a Dwarf to drag a tiefling around, and then they bleed out so much faster.

It's a big hassle.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

... why not just hire the Tiefling?

Silver Crusade

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... granted that does raise the question also if Tiefling blood even works for this in first place.

Pitborn (Devil-descended)? I'd say maybe. The others? I'd say no.


Rysky wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.
Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.

Oh I absolutely agree. Same with celestial. Like the blood of angels is something everyone has for no cost?

I think the reason it's given no price is because the almost certain "my aasimar just bleeds into a bucket. Let's buy that armour!" Comes up.


Tammy isn't subtle about it.

Silver Crusade

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Cavall wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.
Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.

Oh I absolutely agree. Same with celestial. Like the blood of angels is something everyone has for no cost?

I think the reason it's given no price is because the almost certain "my aasimar just bleeds into a bucket. Let's buy that armour!" Comes up.

*nods*

Heh, though Teiflings do have that alternate ability the roll for that lets them bleed valuable blood once per day. I guess it's concentrated?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:

I would say so for Undead and Eidolons (there's a couple of undead that come with Fast Healing already, I.e. Vampires).

Constructs? *shrugs*

Eidolons actually does not have natural healing, which Fast Healing and Regeneration is augmenting. Undead are not living, though Vampires and other undead have the ability, I would think that a temporary boost is unlikely to work for Zombies and skeletons.

The evolution, gotten at higher levels than the 1st level spell, give the Eidolon the ability and becomes a part of his make up.

I put this in because I have the question every once and a while about the Eidolon.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'd say that's reading a bit too much into it, especially since the Fast Healing in question isn't natural, but coming from a spell. The fact that they, as an Eidolon, can "naturally" acquire Fast Healing themselves later on just kinda adds to that notion.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I really don't like the celestial healing spell, and I find it problematic. There's no trade-off from the perspective of heroic PCs. Also, I prefer it when good/evil effects don't directly parallel each other. That spell does not exist in my game.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Haladir wrote:
I really don't like the celestial healing spell, and I find it problematic. There's no trade-off from the perspective of heroic PCs. Also, I prefer it when good/evil effects don't directly parallel each other. That spell does not exist in my game.

The two spells are completely different except for the core mechanic of using fast healing.

Celestial is slower and weaker (you'll be 20th level before it matches Infernal). Infernal has all kinds of damage types it won't heal. Casting Infernal healing is an evil act with effect upon the character's alignment.

So no Protection from Good/Evil either? ;)

Scarab Sages

Rysky wrote:

The components for the spell are "1 drop of devil blood or 1 dose of unholy water".

Now, unholy water costs 25g, whereas there is no listed price for a "drop" of devil blood, which has lead to two assumptions about it.

The first, that unholy water costs 25g so therefore the devil blood must also cost a similar amount and thus not being subject to the eschew materials feat/spell component pouch (and would mean a wand of infernal healing would cost 2,000g).

Where are you getting a cost for Unholy Water?

Holy Water, as per the CRB, is sold at only the material cost by the churches of GOOD faiths. Non-GOOD faiths are not expected to sell it at such a discount. Unholy water, is not even listed as an option buy in the CRB. The cost of Unholy Water should be equal to the cost of hiring a cleric to cast a 1st level spell (Curse Water), plus the materials. So it should cost 35gp (Caster Level x Spell Level x 10gp + Material costs) for Unholy Water or Holy Water bought from non-GOOD aligned religious organizations.


Rysky wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.
Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.

By definition, not listed is exactly the same as negligible in a rules sense.

components wrote:
Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible.

It won't be the first time you have non-equal options.

No FAQ needed.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Rysky wrote:

The components for the spell are "1 drop of devil blood or 1 dose of unholy water".

Now, unholy water costs 25g, whereas there is no listed price for a "drop" of devil blood, which has lead to two assumptions about it.

The first, that unholy water costs 25g so therefore the devil blood must also cost a similar amount and thus not being subject to the eschew materials feat/spell component pouch (and would mean a wand of infernal healing would cost 2,000g).

Where are you getting a cost for Unholy Water?

Holy Water, as per the CRB, is sold at only the material cost by the churches of GOOD faiths. Non-GOOD faiths are not expected to sell it at such a discount. Unholy water, is not even listed as an option buy in the CRB. The cost of Unholy Water should be equal to the cost of hiring a cleric to cast a 1st level spell (Curse Water), plus the materials. So it should cost 35gp (Caster Level x Spell Level x 10gp + Material costs) for Unholy Water or Holy Water bought from non-GOOD aligned religious organizations.

Where are you getting that Evil and non-Good Religions don't provide perks to their faithful?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
dragonhunterq wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.
Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.

By definition, not listed is exactly the same as negligible in a rules sense.

components wrote:
Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible.

It won't be the first time you have non-equal options.

No FAQ needed.

Are there any other spells that have a material component of a specifc price and not priced material component where this would apply?


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Not relevant. the rules say no cost listed is functionally free, then the spell is free. No faq needed

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CWheezy wrote:
Not relevant. the rules say no cost listed is functionally free, then the spell is free. No faq needed

Unholy Water does have a price though, thus the basis for needing a FaQ.

Scarab Sages

Rysky wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Rysky wrote:

The components for the spell are "1 drop of devil blood or 1 dose of unholy water".

Now, unholy water costs 25g, whereas there is no listed price for a "drop" of devil blood, which has lead to two assumptions about it.

The first, that unholy water costs 25g so therefore the devil blood must also cost a similar amount and thus not being subject to the eschew materials feat/spell component pouch (and would mean a wand of infernal healing would cost 2,000g).

Where are you getting a cost for Unholy Water?

Holy Water, as per the CRB, is sold at only the material cost by the churches of GOOD faiths. Non-GOOD faiths are not expected to sell it at such a discount. Unholy water, is not even listed as an option buy in the CRB. The cost of Unholy Water should be equal to the cost of hiring a cleric to cast a 1st level spell (Curse Water), plus the materials. So it should cost 35gp (Caster Level x Spell Level x 10gp + Material costs) for Unholy Water or Holy Water bought from non-GOOD aligned religious organizations.

Where are you getting that Evil and non-Good Religions don't provide perks to their faithful?

Cost of Holy Water is in the CRB. It specificies in the last line of the description:

Quote:
Temples to good deities sell holy water at cost (making no profit). Holy water is made using the bless water spell.

Hence the 25gp listed cost for holy water in the CRB. Otherwise, you'd have to pay for spellcasting services in addition to material costs.

And this isn't a perk for their faithful, anyone can buy from a temple. Neutral and Evil temples just aren't willing to discount like the Good temples do. But the CRB cost for the holy water assumes that the players are purchasing it from a Good temple.

Neutral deity followers will still probably buy their holy water from good temples (or merchants, though merchants are inclined to sell at 35gp mark, for an easy profit).

35gp for either, is still entirely reasonable for what it does and the cost to produce (It is a first level spell, after all).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Okies, then going with them not selling at cost it would cost 2,500g for a wand of infernal healing.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
I'd say that's reading a bit too much into it, especially since the Fast Healing in question isn't natural, but coming from a spell. The fact that they, as an Eidolon, can "naturally" acquire Fast Healing themselves later on just kinda adds to that notion.

Fast Healing comes from different sources for the various monsters. It isn't a form of positive energy like the Cure Spells (Which do work on an Eidolon). Vampires have it from the energies within that process the past blood he has taken, Constructs can have a self repair mechinism within it's works, and Eidolons gain an evolutionary kick that gives it an accelerated healing process that it didn't have before.

The spell is a temporary boost that augments the natural healing process and speeds it up for a determined amount of time. It is my contention that if the target does not have that natural process, it can't benefit from the effects of spells/auras that speed it up.

Hence, my posting of the FAQ above. Seemed to be appropriate.

Silver Crusade

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ThaX, stop it.

You're already arguing this, poorly, in another thread. Don't drag it into a different one to try and prove yourself right. As was pointed out in the other thread, creatures lacking your self made up term of "natural process" would make a lot of spells moot.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I quoted the text in the other thread.
"Except where noted here, fast healing is
just like natural healing." from the Bestiary.

It goes on to explain that the ability does not recover HP from Starvation and other things, and that it stops when the creature is killed.

"The eidolon does not heal naturally." from the APG

"• Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence
score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such
as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast
healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s
Intelligence score." From the Besiary

The Fast Healing special quality is assumed to be an ability the creature would already have. (like Vampires)

"• Cannot heal damage on its own, but often can be repaired
via exposure to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s
description for details) or through the use of the Craft
Construct feat. Constructs can also be healed through
spells such as make whole. A construct with the fast healing
special quality still benefits from that quality." From the Bestiary.

This is clearer, as it specifically mentions that the construct with the ability would benefit from it.

I do not make stuff up. I am not sure where this notion comes from.

Silver Crusade

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"Is like" is not the same as is

Undead can have fast healing. Eidolons can have fast healing. If I looked I might be able to find a construct with fast healing. It's a spell, it supposed to do stuff your naturally can't.

*pinches nose*

And it also doesn't have anything to do with the question being posed in this thread, take it back to the other thread please.


Rysky wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Not relevant. the rules say no cost listed is functionally free, then the spell is free. No faq needed
Unholy Water does have a price though, thus the basis for needing a FaQ.

Not relevant because it is unrelated to the cost of the spell.

Costs for the spell really are given in the spell. That's it. No faq needed.

Silver Crusade

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CWheezy wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Not relevant. the rules say no cost listed is functionally free, then the spell is free. No faq needed
Unholy Water does have a price though, thus the basis for needing a FaQ.

Not relevant because it is unrelated to the cost of the spell.

Costs for the spell really are given in the spell. That's it. No faq needed.

What?

It's a material component to the spell (so yes it is in fact related to the cost of the spell) so indeed relevant.


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A material component with no cost listed. If the component is listed with no cost, then the cost is negligible. End.

Im sure there are plenty of spells where you could find a real costs for the components, but that does not matter. The magic rules do what they say they do imo.

No faq needed.


Has the market price for unholy water been printed?

Silver Crusade

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CWheezy wrote:

A material component with no cost listed. If the component is listed with no cost, then the cost is negligible. End.

Im sure there are plenty of spells where you could find a real costs for the components, but that does not matter. The magic rules do what they say they do imo.

No faq needed.

-_-

Just because they don't list the price for a known item does not mean you get access to a free version of said item for the purpose of the spell.

Silver Crusade

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Paradozen wrote:
Has the market price for unholy water been printed?

Same price as holy water.


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Hello, who said you get access to the item?

Any way, the rules on magic have been posted and are perfectly clear in this case. There is no cost listed for the material components for infernal healing, therefore all you need is a spell component pouch or eschew materials. It doesn't matter that there is an unrelated item that costs money, the rules do not say "spells that have a material component without a listed cost are negligible (just kidding ignore this statement and look up everything to make sure)", the rule is "spells with a material component without a listed cost are negligible"


Rysky wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Has the market price for unholy water been printed?
Same price as holy water.

This had been my assumption, but while the spell curse water costs the same as holy water, I don't see any reference to it in the CRB/UE.

This may seem like splitting hairs at first, but perhaps this is intentional. Maybe unholy water is something PCs are supposed to have to find/make and not be able to buy. Which would make the spell harder to cast than having a 25gp component, because it has a story component not found in your local market/spell component pouch.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CWheezy wrote:

Hello, who said you get access to the item?

Any way, the rules on magic have been posted and are perfectly clear in this case. There is no cost listed for the material components for infernal healing, therefore all you need is a spell component pouch or eschew materials. It doesn't matter that there is an unrelated item that costs money, the rules do not say "spells that have a material component without a listed cost are negligible (just kidding ignore this statement and look up everything to make sure)", the rule is "spells with a material component without a listed cost are negligible"

Your logic is completely faulty.

Unholy Water does have a price. Just because it's not listed on that spell doesn't make it free.

Silver Crusade

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Paradozen wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Has the market price for unholy water been printed?
Same price as holy water.

This had been my assumption, but while the spell curse water costs the same as holy water, I don't see any reference to it in the CRB/UE.

This may seem like splitting hairs at first, but perhaps this is intentional. Maybe unholy water is something PCs are supposed to have to find/make and not be able to buy. Which would make the spell harder to cast than having a 25gp component, because it has a story component not found in your local market/spell component pouch.

*nods*

Possible, but it also harkens to the "you can but you're kinda not supposed to play evil characters" philosophy that permeates this game and earlier editions.


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So your claim is that in the rules for magic, when it says

Quote:
Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

That this is not true, and you do have to look up the price for everything.


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Rysky wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

Hello, who said you get access to the item?

Any way, the rules on magic have been posted and are perfectly clear in this case. There is no cost listed for the material components for infernal healing, therefore all you need is a spell component pouch or eschew materials. It doesn't matter that there is an unrelated item that costs money, the rules do not say "spells that have a material component without a listed cost are negligible (just kidding ignore this statement and look up everything to make sure)", the rule is "spells with a material component without a listed cost are negligible"

Your logic is completely faulty.

Unholy Water does have a price. Just because it's not listed on that spell doesn't make it free.

1 drop of devil's blood does not have a price and thus would be covered by a spell component pouch or eschew materials.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CWheezy wrote:
So your claim is that in the rules for magic, when it says
Quote:
Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.
That this is not true, and you do have to look up the price for everything.

Only for the components that do already have prices listed for them.

Sovereign Court

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CWheezy wrote:

Hello, who said you get access to the item?

Any way, the rules on magic have been posted and are perfectly clear in this case. There is no cost listed for the material components for infernal healing, therefore all you need is a spell component pouch or eschew materials. It doesn't matter that there is an unrelated item that costs money, the rules do not say "spells that have a material component without a listed cost are negligible (just kidding ignore this statement and look up everything to make sure)", the rule is "spells with a material component without a listed cost are negligible"

Note that, by this logic, the transformation spell has no costly material component.

PRD wrote:
Components V, S, M (a potion of bull's strength, which you drink and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects)

Note the phrasing - it must be a fully-functional potion (and not a completely different "potion of bull's strength" item with no mechanical elements), because otherwise it wouldn't have any effects to subsume.

Thus, by the logic of the quoted post, all spell component pouches contain numerous potions of bull's strength. For 5 gp, no less.

Now that's how you buff the fighter class. And it's even Core! ^_^

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
MeanMutton wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

Hello, who said you get access to the item?

Any way, the rules on magic have been posted and are perfectly clear in this case. There is no cost listed for the material components for infernal healing, therefore all you need is a spell component pouch or eschew materials. It doesn't matter that there is an unrelated item that costs money, the rules do not say "spells that have a material component without a listed cost are negligible (just kidding ignore this statement and look up everything to make sure)", the rule is "spells with a material component without a listed cost are negligible"

Your logic is completely faulty.

Unholy Water does have a price. Just because it's not listed on that spell doesn't make it free.

1 drop of devil's blood does not have a price and thus would be covered by a spell component pouch or eschew materials.

Maybe?

That's the point of this FaQ. Why have 2 components, one with a price, and one seemingly without? It makes no sense.

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