Kingmaker Update

[pixierose]

You didn't pay for the book, you invested into a project. The project is still being worked on, and updates are given. You can be frustrated or even disappointed its not out yet>

The circumstances of Covid not only be en emotional and negative consequences of the world but its influence on the publishing industry as a whole gives actual tangible physical issues if you choose to not care about the emotional weight affecting your fellow human beings.

[Cori Marie]

I also backed the project. But I'm aware enough of supply chain issues, and again, the global pandemic. They are sending regular updates, and it will get released. Have a little bit of patience and compassion.

[Tonya Woldridge]

Removed a post that included Covid statistics and commentary on their accuracy, which is beyond the scope of this thread. I understand people are disappointed the book hasn't been released yet. We are working on it and you can find updates on the Game On Tabletop site.

[Ravingdork]

graystone wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Gary M. Sarli

This name doesn't ring a bell? What are they known for?

He was one of the lead developers for the Stat Wars Saga roleplaying game under Wizards of the Coast.

[Deriven Firelion]

I feel like Paizo will get it done. I think James Jacobs doesn't seem the type to let something not get done that people paid for. Right now Paizo is dealing with a lot of issues both external and internal that are slowing development. Once they get clarity of these issues, they will get the Kingmaker update done.

[CorvusMask]

I think biggest thing slowing kingmaker down is that they seem to be intending to release all the books in same time rather than when they are finished :p

[graystone]

Ravingdork wrote:

graystone wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Gary M. Sarli

This name doesn't ring a bell? What are they known for?

He was one of the lead developers for the Stat Wars Saga roleplaying game under Wizards of the Coast.

Ah, ok.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

I wasn't able financially to back the KS but I was tempted to quite strongly.

Almost as tempted as I was to back the Masterclass SF minis -- but I'd been warned off of that one by friends who'd been burned by ND in the past.

The comparison between the two is night and day, however, especially if one is getting monthly updates as a minimum.

Isn't there a warning on the KS site about project expectations and liability?

[Sporkedup]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Isn't there a warning on the KS site about project expectations and liability?

There certainly is, though this project was not done through Kickstarter.

[AlastarOG]

As for the problems being shipping and printing... Why not just release the pdf products and tell backers they'll have the printed product when they can?

This is even more egregious considering the delays on a converted product. The baseline is there's you just have to convert it.

I'm running a pf2e kingmaker right now. Is it paizo quality? No! Is it hard to convert ? Not particularly !

30 months of delay is simply not understandable to me, considering the project. I just want some damn army and kingdom rules rather than having to make them up myself !

[Cori Marie]

Okay but what we backed was never a straight conversion. Just like the Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne books weren't straight conversions. There are updates, additional encounters, rewrites, etc.

[TomParker]

AlastarOG wrote:

30 months of delay is simply not understandable to me, considering the project. I just want some damn army and kingdom rules rather than having to make them up myself !

The Kingmaker project I backed said delivery would be late 2020. That's 12 to 14 months behind right now, not 30. And this project was never just a rules update.

Whether it was crowdfunded or not, this is how long this is going to take. I'd buy it regardless. So I don't really care that I paid when it crowdfunded and have to wait. The alternative is that Paizo kept it super secret and I would have paid next year when it comes out.

The point of crowdfunding is that you're part of the process, which can be bumpy and painful. And sometimes you get nothing—I've crowdfunded about 135 projects and have had a handful that utterly failed. If you just want your thing, and you don't want to deal with delays, don't crowdfund things. You'll still have to wait but you can hang onto your money until then. I'd rather be along for the ride.

[Themetricsystem]

I too have no issue with Kickstarter projects taking a long time to get out but I would very much prefer if companies were more conservative and more honest with the time estimations given that the usual delivery date given on an average project is six months to two years AFTER that time. Of course, Paizo couldn't have known that the whole world would change in early 2020 and impact the release but this isn't just a Paizo thing or even new since Covid started to be everywhere, it's been essentially the NORM for all crowdfunding campaigns for nearly a decade now.

In my opinion, companies who crowdfund REALLY need to get into the habit of using the Scotty Principle where you first do a REAL estimation of what all needs to be done based on your best knowledge and experience and then add 25-50% additional time on top of that when talking about when you can actually deliver results.

[AlastarOG]

TomParker wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

30 months of delay is simply not understandable to me, considering the project. I just want some damn army and kingdom rules rather than having to make them up myself !

The Kingmaker project I backed said delivery would be late 2020. That's 12 to 14 months behind right now, not 30. And this project was never just a rules update.

Whether it was crowdfunded or not, this is how long this is going to take. I'd buy it regardless. So I don't really care that I paid when it crowdfunded and have to wait. The alternative is that Paizo kept it super secret and I would have paid next year when it comes out.

The point of crowdfunding is that you're part of the process, which can be bumpy and painful. And sometimes you get nothing—I've crowdfunded about 135 projects and have had a handful that utterly failed. If you just want your thing, and you don't want to deal with delays, don't crowdfund things. You'll still have to wait but you can hang onto your money until then. I'd rather be along for the ride.

Scheduled delivery now is April 2022, which is 17-19 months, that deadline will most likely be extended another 6 months, and then who knows if we'll get it.

Maybe not 30 but it won't be far off the map.

With the amount of funding they got, this really feels like paizo didn't allocate the necessary resources to make this project in time because they got paid up front.

[The Raven Black]

AlastarOG wrote:

TomParker wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

30 months of delay is simply not understandable to me, considering the project. I just want some damn army and kingdom rules rather than having to make them up myself !

The Kingmaker project I backed said delivery would be late 2020. That's 12 to 14 months behind right now, not 30. And this project was never just a rules update.

Whether it was crowdfunded or not, this is how long this is going to take. I'd buy it regardless. So I don't really care that I paid when it crowdfunded and have to wait. The alternative is that Paizo kept it super secret and I would have paid next year when it comes out.

The point of crowdfunding is that you're part of the process, which can be bumpy and painful. And sometimes you get nothing—I've crowdfunded about 135 projects and have had a handful that utterly failed. If you just want your thing, and you don't want to deal with delays, don't crowdfund things. You'll still have to wait but you can hang onto your money until then. I'd rather be along for the ride.

Scheduled delivery now is April 2022, which is 17-19 months, that deadline will most likely be extended another 6 months, and then who knows if we'll get it.

Maybe not 30 but it won't be far off the map.

With the amount of funding they got, this really feels like paizo didn't allocate the necessary resources to make this project in time because they got paid up front.

It has been the sole focus of James Jacobs' work for an extremely long time. Including all the awesome additional stuff that got unlocked.

For me, this means money very well spent.

[Cori Marie]

AlastarOG wrote:

TomParker wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

30 months of delay is simply not understandable to me, considering the project. I just want some damn army and kingdom rules rather than having to make them up myself !

The Kingmaker project I backed said delivery would be late 2020. That's 12 to 14 months behind right now, not 30. And this project was never just a rules update.

Whether it was crowdfunded or not, this is how long this is going to take. I'd buy it regardless. So I don't really care that I paid when it crowdfunded and have to wait. The alternative is that Paizo kept it super secret and I would have paid next year when it comes out.

The point of crowdfunding is that you're part of the process, which can be bumpy and painful. And sometimes you get nothing—I've crowdfunded about 135 projects and have had a handful that utterly failed. If you just want your thing, and you don't want to deal with delays, don't crowdfund things. You'll still have to wait but you can hang onto your money until then. I'd rather be along for the ride.

Scheduled delivery now is April 2022, which is 17-19 months, that deadline will most likely be extended another 6 months, and then who knows if we'll get it.

Maybe not 30 but it won't be far off the map.

With the amount of funding they got, this really feels like paizo didn't allocate the necessary resources to make this project in time because they got paid up front.

Mighty big to assume another delay, and then another one beyond that before anything gets announced?

[AlastarOG]

Cori Marie wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

TomParker wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

30 months of delay is simply not understandable to me, considering the project. I just want some damn army and kingdom rules rather than having to make them up myself !

The Kingmaker project I backed said delivery would be late 2020. That's 12 to 14 months behind right now, not 30. And this project was never just a rules update.

Whether it was crowdfunded or not, this is how long this is going to take. I'd buy it regardless. So I don't really care that I paid when it crowdfunded and have to wait. The alternative is that Paizo kept it super secret and I would have paid next year when it comes out.

The point of crowdfunding is that you're part of the process, which can be bumpy and painful. And sometimes you get nothing—I've crowdfunded about 135 projects and have had a handful that utterly failed. If you just want your thing, and you don't want to deal with delays, don't crowdfund things. You'll still have to wait but you can hang onto your money until then. I'd rather be along for the ride.

Scheduled delivery now is April 2022, which is 17-19 months, that deadline will most likely be extended another 6 months, and then who knows if we'll get it.

Maybe not 30 but it won't be far off the map.

With the amount of funding they got, this really feels like paizo didn't allocate the necessary resources to make this project in time because they got paid up front.

Mighty big to assume another delay, and then another one beyond that before anything gets announced?

Well I've been right to assume that for the past 3 announced dates so yaknow... I like my odds.

[pixierose]

I read somewhere that the books are done its just going to printing I could be remembering wrong though.

[Kasoh]

pixierose wrote:

I read somewhere that the books are done its just going to printing I could be remembering wrong though.

The September or October update mentioned that development of the product was completed, but I don’t know if that means off to the printer or it had to go through copy editing. Either way, I suspect the lions share of the work is completed.

[Val'bryn2]

Love that my comment was deleted when I responded to someone bringing Covid into the discussion, because it was "beyond the scope of the discussion". I paid for a product, Paizo has failed to deliver so far, and I have no recourse for if they decide they just don't feel like doing this anymore, and when I voice my displeasure as to this, I am shamed for daring to expect to get something for my money.

[Cori Marie]

They've been giving monthly updates. Where the heck are you getting the idea that "they just don't feel like doing this anymore"?

[TriOmegaZero]

And what exactly would satisfy you?

[pixierose]

Once again you didn't pay for a product, your invested into a project. Two different things

No one is saying you can't feel frustrated of disappointed. In fact those are very normal human feelings.

But it's possible to recognize those emotions while also pointing out that you have been dismissed information given to you, that you have written callously about the staffs own situation, or that you partook in covid dealings and skepticism which is a rabbit hole that I am glad paizo is taken a stand against.

No one is saying your base emotions are u justifiable just asking for understanding and perhaps reconsider your expectations and your overall perspective on crowdsoyrcing projects such as kickstarters.

[Cori Marie]

August Update wrote:

Well over a thousand pages of Kingmaker content is now laid out, copyfit, and over to edit for its final few rounds of editing and proofing. For the next few months, as we get closer and closer to shipping to the printer, I’ll be sharing with you some close-to-final spreads of pages from the various books in this enormous new edition of the classic campaign.

October Update wrote:

The Kingmaker Pawn Box has now been sent to the printer! Here’s a sample of what you’ll find inside…

November Update wrote:

More products for Kingmaker have been sent off to the printer! This month, we’re focusing on the flip-mats linked to the Adventure Path. There’s three flip-mat packages in all, each of which contains two separate two-sided flip mats to enhance your playthrough of Kingmaker!

So that's several things sent off to the printer, a pretty good indication that A) The current timeline is on track and B) they're not abandoning the project

[The Raven Black]

Also they can make even more money selling the products to all those who missed the crowdfunding. Why would they let all their efforts on these products go to waste ?

[Rysky]

Because if I complain about a non-issue or make one up I get a discount on my meal/clothes/furniture/crowdfunded entertainment.

[Kevin Mack]

I have no doubt the product will be finished but what does suprise me is well the suprise people are having that it is taking this long.

I mean pandemic aside as I mentioned before paizo does not seem to have all that great a track record when it comes to anything involving crowdfunding and while I am certain that James himself is giving 110% to the project for paizo as a company it clearly was never going to be a priority (the fact they crowdfunded it at all should have been a pretty big clue to that)

[Rysky]

I think I actually ran the numbers awhile back on Paizo related Crowdfunded projects and it was over half that was funded and delivered, the rest “in progress”.

If you further split “in progress” into actually in progress vs nah/failures it bumps it up to like 75% or more? With the Starfinder minis and the MMO being the glaring ones, but not the only ones they’ve done.

[Kevin Mack]

Well besides those two the other ones I know of is the arena one (That recently just funded but it's already had a whole mess of problems) Another arenaish one (Name I cant remember only that they cancelled the project.)

Definetly more but there the ones that come to mind right now (Maybe some card game ones but not sure if they were crowdfunded or just done in partnership)

[AlastarOG]

What bothers me the most about the delays is I'm the kind of GM who plans campaigns years in advance.

I planned my kingmaker 2.0 and backed assuming that if I gave them a 6-10 months windows for delay I'd still be able to play it then.

So I had time to run agents of edgewatch from a to z AFTER the Kickstarter announced release date, then a 3 months between campaign sessions, and then even more delays were announced.

So I took about 60 hours of my own time and just made my own systems and things for my kingmaker campaign.

When the product finally does come out, I will have paid for nothing because my campaign will be over and I will have no use for it.

That's whats bothersome.

Wrath of the righteous is my next campaign, you can be sure I'm not kickstarting it when they inevitably do it. At this point I'll just suck it and make my own mythic system based on free archetype rules.

[Fumarole]

AlastarOG wrote:

When the product finally does come out, I will have paid for nothing because my campaign will be over and I will have no use for it.

No, you will have backed the project for a product which you will have received.

[NielsenE]

I always assume a minimum 6-12 month delay on any kickstarter (or other crowd funding) from a company without a proven track record of delivering on time. If it involves collaboration between multiple business entities, I add an extra 3 months to my expectations. If they have stretch goals that involved more content, but no schedule change or later delivery, add another year.

So I was expecting from day one that this one would be 21-25 months late. Looks like that will be about the right ballpark. (if anything that suggests they are making great progress despite the pandemic)

And that last modifier is the most important one, IMO, it's the one that really tells you how much they've actually thought about production schedule and plans. So much of the stretch goals here were new content in some form or another, so it wasn't 'just' converting between rule systems. New content is more work, more departments involved, new art requests, new designer/developer iterations on balance, etc. Its scope creep added during the emotions of the funding campaign without the vetting it should have. Even if they are planned ahead of time, they are still almost always unrealistic -- either the company doesn't think they'll be reached and they just have them to look good, or a decent portion of them should have been baked into the base/default offering and the schedule/funding goals rethought to account for it. And in either case, it feels like companies when planning stretch goals forget that they have to do work to deliver them.

[AlastarOG]

Fumarole wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

When the product finally does come out, I will have paid for nothing because my campaign will be over and I will have no use for it.

No, you will have backed the project for a product which you will have received.

That does not mean I will have a use for it.

[TOZ]

I don't believe the book has an expiration date.

[AlastarOG]

TOZ wrote:

I don't believe the book has an expiration date.

And yet my point, within the context mentioned earlier, remains entirely valid.

[TOZ]

That's just life.

[Val'bryn2]

Here's the thing, though, especially for those saying "you didn't pay for a book". Yes, I did. Part of the pledge says "pay this much, and receive these items". I paid that much, as yet I have nothing, including the PDFs that were supposed to be part of it. They have taken 26 months so far. As others have said, they made their pledges for specific purposes, which the delay made untenable. If it's not released in a timely manner to work with the purposes it was ordered for, those books become just so much junk cluttering up a bookshelf. I ordered it because my gaming group would have enjoyed it. Been 2 years since we spoke, so my primary reason for ordering this has gone.

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

How's Paizo responsible for you not talking to your gaming group?

[Cori Marie]

I'd say planning a campaign before having the product in hand is not the fault of the company that's been hit with unexpected setbacks like a global pandemic.

[The Raven Black]

Val'bryn2 wrote:

Here's the thing, though, especially for those saying "you didn't pay for a book". Yes, I did. Part of the pledge says "pay this much, and receive these items". I paid that much, as yet I have nothing, including the PDFs that were supposed to be part of it. They have taken 26 months so far. As others have said, they made their pledges for specific purposes, which the delay made untenable. If it's not released in a timely manner to work with the purposes it was ordered for, those books become just so much junk cluttering up a bookshelf. I ordered it because my gaming group would have enjoyed it. Been 2 years since we spoke, so my primary reason for ordering this has gone.

Neither you nor I paid for a deadline AFAIK.

[Val'bryn2]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

How's Paizo responsible for you not talking to your gaming group?

I never claimed they were. What I did say was that I purchased this product with the intention of playing it with them, and during the delays that Paizo has had with the product, the gaming group I had dissolved. I never claimed they were responsible, but that doesn't change the fact that, during the delays, the reason I purchased the product ceased to be a factor.

[Val'bryn2]

The Raven Black wrote:

Neither you nor I paid for a deadline AFAIK.

So you are content with waiting for Pathfinder 3rd edition being released to receive Pathfinder 2E material? You're fine with them holding off on releasing it for 4,5 years or so after taking your money to give you something that other single people have been able to bash out in roughly 60 hours?

[The Raven Black]

Val'bryn2 wrote:

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

How's Paizo responsible for you not talking to your gaming group?

I never claimed they were. What I did say was that I purchased this product with the intention of playing it with them, and during the delays that Paizo has had with the product, the gaming group I had dissolved. I never claimed they were responsible, but that doesn't change the fact that, during the delays, the reason I purchased the product ceased to be a factor.

How is Paizo responsible for this ?

[Cori Marie]

So if your gaming group had waited to dissolve until after you had the product it wouldn't have been a waste of money?

[Grumpus]

I am a little disappointed in the delays for this project, but I understand the pandemic threw a huge wrench into everything.

But, Paizo has been able to release multiple books from the rulebook line, multiple books from the lost omens line, and monthly AP volumes all throughout the pandemic. With the majority of those being released on schedule, or only a month or 2 late.

So why does this project keep getting shoved to the back of the line such that what was supposed to be the 10th anniversary edition, will hopefully be the 12th anniversary edition?

The only difference I see is that they already have the money for this product, so there's less incentive to get it out on time. And all the other stuff they only get the money when it is released so there's more incentive to make sure it is released on time.

[Val'bryn2]

Cori Marie wrote:

So if your gaming group had waited to dissolve until after you had the product it wouldn't have been a waste of money?

It would have been just another one of those things. Paizo ran a Kickstarter, making promises as to providing books. Twenty-six months later, we haven't gotten the PDFs, much less the physical books that were promised. Paizo dropped the ball. That cannot be argued. We can argue about how "justified" it was, but the fact is, they received money, we have received nothing but glimpses at the product we've already paid for.

[Val'bryn2]

The Raven Black wrote:

How is Paizo responsible for this ?

Because I have already paid them for the book, and they have not provided said book. I fulfilled my end of the contract, they have yet to do so. They have, as others and myself have pointed out, released numerous books in the main line, in side lines, in the adventure paths, and even in society adventures, but they have not produced the one book (or set) that has already been paid for.

[Cori Marie]

Again, you did not pay for a book. You backed a project. Those are different things with different expectations attached to them. Paizo has been very communicative about the delays with the project.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Speaking as someone who works in 'essential' retail here:

Twenty-six months during a world-spanning pandemic is the effective equivalent of about four months of 'non-pandemic' time if one is lucky.

We've had to remove entire sections of product categories at work because we cannot get the items, and the best 'guess' is we'll get them in two to three years if we're lucky.

Businesses cannot operate like that and expect to remain in business for long.

Most Kickstarters I've participated in during the pandemic have had significantly longer execution and expectation times, and if things became available sooner at the quality desired they'd give us an update in that regard.

Just for the sake of example, if one was willing to pay an exorbitant and excessive amount of money to ensure the shipping costs, would one to ensure it would be done 'on time' or in some close semblance thereof?

Because that's what the chain is like right now in terms of supplies and deliveries -- 'what the market may bear' is apparently a *lot* of up-charging for expediting services.