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I don't know, I didn't start GMing till last spring or so, letting my buddy really drive my rules knowledge prior to that. Pathfinder is similar enough to prior D&D editions that you can get started as a player pretty easily.
Granted, once I got into being the GM, well, I went overboard scouring threads, reading books, etc., to understand the nuances of all the mechanics. For reading, I prefer pdfs because I'm nearly 50 and my arms aren't long enough anymore. For gameday, I prefer books because they're actually easier to reference, IMO.
Since I started subscribing a year ago, I've picked up most of the hardbacks, some through Paizo, some through Amazon, some through local stores. Pathfinder actually has a similar representation as D&D in the stores I visit (Colorado Springs area), and at least as many, if not more, gaming sessions. One place has a liquor license and serves beer during sessions, charging players a buck each that gets applied to GM credit in the store.
Edit: corrected typos
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One big benefit going back to 2E was that a large amount of optional rules were setting specific. Which I think made it more natural for people to ignore extra mechanics, and options that didn't appeal to them. Thus far Pathfinder has attempted to integrate many different genre options into 1 setting. There is a trade-off there, namely it gives you there larger potential market for selling new rules books but makes for potentially larger and larger barriers for new players.
Well with Starfinder I think we are seeing at least the testing of waters on new setting specific rules. Since it's sounds like it will be pretty compatible with Pathfinder, but will have a lot changes to mechanics for better emulation of science fiction versus epic fantasy.
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Asa DM, I generally just give the players Core Rulebook and whatever supplements I have on hand. They just get confused by optional, extraneous and cross referenced rules on d20pfsrd, and forget what their character can actually do. Do you not experience this and how do you avoid it?As a DM, I generally open the floodgates and tell my players "play whatever you want, even 3PP. Just let me see what you want to do first."
I usually don't run into it as a problem since i ask my players what they want their characters to do then try to find a way to make it work in the rules. After that its jut a matter of a character sheet flash cards for spells or wordier abilities and the occasional hint. Rarely for X uses per day I've had chits when dealing with players who just could not keep track of resource pools
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It's kind of weird at mine. We have a lot of DnX books and one or two Pathfinder books. However, most of the DnD books just sit there while the PF books do get sold but are kept in low number. As well, I think there is agreements between some FlGs and WoTC surrounding DnD.
Hmmm ...
Is Pathfinder "In Its Twilight"? Observations From A Retailer
Other than dropping a live grenade on the floor, what was the point of this? Hmmm?
I must admit, I'd quite like to see Paizo in the "Bricks and Mortar" program - buy the book in your participating FLGS, get the PDF as well if you give them your email address to send it to (or, in the case of Paizo, possibly your account to attach it to).
Perhaps something like the code that came from the Bundle of Holding deals a while back? Redeeming the code added specific items directly into your Downloads. Perhaps the publisher/distributor could add a sticker inside the front cover with a scratch-off film (like the one on lotto tickets and some game pieces) that reveals the code to redeem on the Paizo website?
I have no idea how difficult it would be to do this. Likewise, I don't know if Paizo would need to raise prices if giving out free PDFs of the print versions starts to undercut the profits and web sales.
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Other than dropping a live grenade on the floor, what was the point of this? Hmmm?Hmmm ...
Is Pathfinder "In Its Twilight"? Observations From A Retailer
Marc is a key member of Kobold Press, an established freelancer, and a nice guy. I'm pretty sure he has a genuine non-trolling interest in the answers to those questions, especially considering KP makes products supporting both Pathfinder and 5e.
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Other than dropping a live grenade on the floor, what was the point of this? Hmmm?Hmmm ...
Is Pathfinder "In Its Twilight"? Observations From A Retailer
Hey there - dropping a grenade, live or otherwise, was definitely not my intention!
I LOVE Paizo and Pathfinder, believe me. I also feel there are some pretty positive things in 5E, and intend on getting into a 5E game at some point soon, but I think my heart will always belong to Pathfinder :)I posted those articles solely because I found them to be interesting - some very insightful things, as well as some things I felt were pretty biased. But regardless, they seemed like they might be worthwhile reading. Nothing more or less than that, honest !
Other than dropping a live grenade on the floor, what was the point of this? Hmmm?Hmmm ...
Is Pathfinder "In Its Twilight"? Observations From A Retailer
Hey there - dropping a grenade, live or otherwise, was definitely not my intention!
I LOVE Paizo and Pathfinder, believe me. I also feel there are some pretty positive things in 5E, and intend on getting into a 5E game at some point soon, but I think my heart will always belong to Pathfinder :)I posted those articles solely because I found them to be interesting - some very insightful things, as well as some things I felt were pretty biased. But regardless, they seemed like they might be worthwhile reading. Nothing more or less than that, honest !
Good enough for me, Marc. Wish I could see past the biased stuff as easily, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to do so.
I just don't understand. People have a lot of different tendencies. They want the stuff they have bought to stay relevant and completely accurate forever. Thus, they do not want new editions of PF. They also want the new and shiny. Thus, leaving PF for said new and shiny. These two things are pretty damn hard to reconcile.
Or perhaps what they want is a game without rules bloat? At this time, PF is pretty much the worst example in the industry, a consequence of years of Paizo listening to what its fans wanted. They have published new rules, while their main income (as I have understood it) has remained the APs. Again, listening to the fans eventually gets you to where the fans leave.
The analysis that was made after the autopsy of TSR still rules harshly. Don't split the fanbase, and thus do not make more than one setting for the game. Ever. But... A new setting is where you can experiment. Take risks. Those products are often the most delightful. They get fans clamouring for more a decade later. Safely holding to the known concept gets you another sale, and a forgettable setting.
In each of these issues, is it impossible to imagine a middle way? Does it have to be all or nothing?
Personally, I think Paizo do a good job trying to walk the middle path. When we play PF, we use just the CRB - I think they meet the needs of the "no bloat, just adventures/flavor" crowd whilst also still churning out many, many books of options for those that want them. Occasionally there are references to rules we haven't seen before, but it's pretty easy to make up something on-the-fly when it's just an NPC or monster and not a PC ability that's going to come up again and again throughout the campaign.
I'm hoping that branching out into Starfinder is a safer way to try something new and fresh than the TSR model of many same-but-different campaign settings. Hopefully the new game and setting is separate enough that it doesn't cannibalize Golarion/Pathfinder sales too much but rather brings in fresh people (or fans who want more than is currently available).
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Would any of this discussion even have arisen if Paizo had never pulled ahead of WotC in sales? That event seems to have set up expectations for Paizo that would have been considered unrealistic before then.
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I was super stoked that 5E was going with bounded accuracy, a design element I have wanted for decades. The tighter system runs slick and it is fast and easy. The 5E mechanics gets out of the way of my story and doesn't eat all our table time. When 5E doesn't get out of the way, a rulings over rules philosophy allows me to get things back on track. However, my players think 5E is the big snooze and wont play it.....
My verdict is that 5E is the game I want to run, but PF is the game I want to play. /shrug
Stores selling more 5E isn't a surprise because WOTC doesn't do the digital thing. Also, the system is newer and PF is starting to pile up the years. Anecdotally, I see folks playing both games as much as the other due to personal taste more so than one is better than the other. YMMV
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Yeah, but what about Fantasy Age? ;-)
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My guess is the new movie will have minimal impact and not be very good.
On the store side of things, FLGS need to adapt as businesses always have. Gaming cafe/ store seems to be the new way to go, along with a healthy supply of magic cards and Friday night magic.
I think that niche games (everything from Call of Cthulhu to Munchkin) will have to each make do with an increasingly fragmented portion of gaming market space outside of the big 6 (or 7). Because that's the way it's always been and because of Kickstarter and similar business options for the "little guys". Kickstarter helps all the little games stay afloat and healthy but unless they also win the Meme Lottery, they won't ever grow up to be a big 6 (or 7).
I pretty much agree with you (I'm optimistic for all things RPG at the moment other than FLGS lifespans and the continuing existence of dead-tree versions of gaming products).
One tangential comment I saw was in the most recent ICv2 report - they talked about going back to reporting (or beginning to report?) on the top ten RPGs rather than the top five. Apparently games 6-8 or so are pretty much level pegging with the games in 4th, 5th and even 3rd spot. I also found that encouraging for the smaller publishing companies and personally I hope they do make that change.
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I hope star finder does open the door to a pathfinder second ed. or a reworking, as long as it's not a total overhaul and it's backwards compatible it will be fine. If such a new book hits it might be more valid to compare than a several year old game core sales with a just released one. I think D&D is doing well because it's new, 3.0 and PF sold very well when new, even 3.5. It was the massive change in direction that put many off 4th.
What keeps me using pathfinder even with the "bloat" is the constant emergence of new rules that I want to test - kingdom building, unchained classes, poisons, disease and crafting; horror rules like corruptions and sanity. Our group also uses hero lab so we don't actually notice the "bloat" so much. I can think of many more books I would want - even just the NPC codeces have a wealth of possibility for me.
Personally I'm happy for both to do well since it adds more variety to my table, getting my players to actually plat 5th is proving very hard.
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So saying that Starfinder will be compared to Pathfinder is a baiting post and it was removed. Well that's news to me.
I suspect that wasn't considered baiting.
If you want to query a moderator call, Paizo are pretty good about giving further explanation. They prefer it not be in the thread that the post was removed from but rather in the website feedback forum or via email at community@paizo.com.
For the record, I would not expect an electronic-only subscription to show up earlier in the month. For me the reason to go electronic-only is two fold:
bookshelf space (and having to lug books everywhere) and cost. I'll happily pay the part of the cost that covers the author and the layout, whether that's 50% or 65%. (Heh.. though if its 99.8%, I'm going to raise an eyebrow).
But realistically, when I need rules I go to the web or to Hero Lab. In fact, when I want to evaluate a new set of rules, my general order of purchase is Hero Lab, then electronic, then heavily-discounted dead tree (through bn.com). Hero Lab comes first because its something that I can use to make my play / prep time easier. And I know that I'm still supporting Paizo through LW's licensing of the product.
Indeed, about 80% of the modules I have in print from Paizo are through their warehouse reduction sales (where the ole 3.5 modules are like 80% off).
Its a matter of stretching that dollar. Btw, for the record, the odds of me migrating over to 5E is very small to nonexistant - mostly because I'm already heavily invested (in both time and money) in pathfinder and really don't want to start over again.
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I think WotC will likely leverage the upcoming movie (2017? 2018?) to increase their sales. Deciding to do this looks to me like a no-brainer effort and should raise the tide for other RPGs as well.
Given the abysmal track record of D+D movies so far, I would not be betting the farm on this. How many failed movies will it take to get WOTC to stop beating this dead horse?
Instead of making movies titled "Dungeons and Dragons", I wonder if it ever occured to them to anchor a movie around a popular novel series instead, like maybe a set of books that keeps hitting the best seller list?
So saying that Starfinder will be compared to Pathfinder is a baiting post and it was removed. Well that's news to me.
This is the first I've heard of Starfinder. So the rumor is that it will be an unofficial Pathfinder 2nd edition?
If so, I think this should extend the popularity of Pathfinder. Those who resist a 2nd edition would have Pathfinder; those that want a 2nd edition could play with Starfinder but in a classic dungeon crawl setting. Best of both worlds.
Just a thought.
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Instead of making movies titled "Dungeons and Dragons", I wonder if it ever occured to them to anchor a movie around a popular novel series instead, like maybe a set of books that keeps hitting the best seller list?
While I'm not sure how good it would actually be, Drizzt does have all of the classic draws of a movie success. If they work to keep it PG-13 (mostly avoid the creepy demon stuff and implied incest) the prequels would be pretty easy to make successful.
Come on - a darkly beautiful young male throws off the evil shackles of his heritage? Cut out the side plots/character (keep Drizzt the focus) and at least streamline his crazy phase (probably just go nearly straight from escaping the city to the surface - maybe a montage chase scene), and it'd be easy to hit all of the classic light blockbuster checkpoints.
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My family and I would love to see the Drizzt books made in to a TV series on HBO. The game of thrones writers would have blast with menzoberranzan to play with and later I'd love to see Jarlaxle and Entreri interacting together on screen.
Back to the original topic, it's not the twilight of Pathfinder, it's the twilight of the whole table-top role-playing industry. We are living in a geek renaissance right now where there has been a massive surge in popularity (and sales) in everything from comic books to board games. Despite this, table-top role-playing sales have been stagnant without the same surge of new blood. And this doesn't bode well when everything else tangent is on a massive upswing.
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I hope star finder does open the door to a pathfinder second ed. or a reworking, as long as it's not a total overhaul and it's backwards compatible it will be fine.
Based on the direction of 5E I don't believe there really is a need for a PF2.0. Early 5E design teams mentioned that 5E would be the "modular" edition. However, since release 5E is keeping a real tight lid on content releases. Honestly, PF has modular locked down at the moment in spades. Casting systems, combat systems, Mass combat, etc give PF long legs. Combine that with a robust, yet mechanically challenging, character building system and you have a perfect alternative to 5E ready made.
If such a new book hits it might be more valid to compare than a several year old game core sales with a just released one. I think D&D is doing well because it's new, 3.0 and PF sold very well when new, even 3.5. It was the massive change in direction that put many off 4th.
I can agree with this, while also pointing out PF has OGL and a full SRD that cuts into core rules sales on top of the years it has been in print.
What keeps me using pathfinder even with the "bloat" is the constant emergence of new rules that I want to test - kingdom building, unchained classes, poisons, disease and crafting; horror rules like corruptions and sanity. Our group also uses hero lab so we don't actually notice the "bloat" so much. I can think of many more books I would want - even just the NPC codeces have a wealth of possibility for me.Personally I'm happy for both to do well since it adds more variety to my table, getting my players to actually plat 5th is proving very hard.
This pretty much can attest to my opinion that PF doesn't really need a 2.0 at this time. Technology gives the system legs and ability to keep up with bloat for players. Additional options add fresh ideas to a growing system in comparison to the competition that is keeping it tight.
If Starfinder is just Pathfinder in Space, why isn't it just another Pathfinder RPG book? Ultimate Space. Ultimate Worlds. Ultimate Planes.
I think WotC will likely leverage the upcoming movie (2017? 2018?) to increase their sales. Deciding to do this looks to me like a no-brainer effort and should raise the tide for other RPGs as well.
Given the abysmal track record of D+D movies so far, I would not be betting the farm on this. How many failed movies will it take to get WOTC to stop beating this dead horse?
Instead of making movies titled "Dungeons and Dragons", I wonder if it ever occured to them to anchor a movie around a popular novel series instead, like maybe a set of books that keeps hitting the best seller list?
Those rights were sold Pre-Hasbro buyout, and DnD sold the rights in such a way that they have little if any control of them.
Hasbro has been fairly aggressive with producing big budget blockbuster adaptations of there products; While their movies haven't been exactly a huge critical success, one can't argue that the Transformer movies haven't made a ton of money.
Basically, comparing the previous attempts with both low budgets, poor scripts, and mostly no-name actors with whatever Hasbro is going to produce is probably not relevant.
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If Starfinder is just Pathfinder in Space, why isn't it just another Pathfinder RPG book? Ultimate Space. Ultimate Worlds. Ultimate Planes.
Because the existing system is rather clunky in emulating Space Fantasy tropes. Even if you keep the basic game, you need to significantly modify skills, combat, equipment, and magic to get something that feels like a better fit than Pathfinder. Plus provide robust systems for game elements like space ship combat. At that point it's a new system really.
Or converting the right module series.I think WotC will likely leverage the upcoming movie (2017? 2018?) to increase their sales. Deciding to do this looks to me like a no-brainer effort and should raise the tide for other RPGs as well.Given the abysmal track record of D+D movies so far, I would not be betting the farm on this. How many failed movies will it take to get WOTC to stop beating this dead horse?
Instead of making movies titled "Dungeons and Dragons", I wonder if it ever occured to them to anchor a movie around a popular novel series instead, like maybe a set of books that keeps hitting the best seller list?
The problem with converting a module is that it essentially only gives you half the story. You've got the villain and his plot, but no protagonists. No characterization. No character driven plots or subplots. No relationships.
There's also the fact that no module ever made Barnes and Nobles best seller list, if you get my point. The vast majority of Drizzt fans at this point, are probably not even gamers.
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If Starfinder is just Pathfinder in Space, why isn't it just another Pathfinder RPG book? Ultimate Space. Ultimate Worlds. Ultimate Planes.Because the existing system is rather clunky in emulating Space Fantasy tropes. Even if you keep the basic game, you need to significantly modify skills, combat, equipment, and magic to get something that feels like a better fit than Pathfinder. Plus provide robust systems for game elements like space ship combat. At that point it's a new system really.
I'm actually more interested in how they do ground vehicles. What rules Pathfinder has for vehicles are a mess, as are every other crunchy RPG's vehicle rules that I've ever seen, while space-ship rules really aren't that hard and have been done pretty well before. (It's the interaction between the vehicles & infantry that's really tricky to get right, especially on a grid.)
If Starfinder is just Pathfinder in Space, why isn't it just another Pathfinder RPG book? Ultimate Space. Ultimate Worlds. Ultimate Planes.Because the existing system is rather clunky in emulating Space Fantasy tropes. Even if you keep the basic game, you need to significantly modify skills, combat, equipment, and magic to get something that feels like a better fit than Pathfinder. Plus provide robust systems for game elements like space ship combat. At that point it's a new system really.
Which I'm all for. I really want to see a homegrown Paizo system. That's exciting in its own right. I think if they knock it out of the park we can expect at least some dabbling in a serious way with respect to a Pathfinder 2 ESPECIALLY considering they've already been doing Starfinder with cross compatibility with Pathfinder proving what I've been saying for a good long while: they won't break compatibility with their own products, it's not a binary either/or; they can coexist or bridge rather gracefully. The same would be true for a PF 2.
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My guess is the new movie will have minimal impact and not be very good.
On the store side of things, FLGS need to adapt as businesses always have. Gaming cafe/ store seems to be the new way to go, along with a healthy supply of magic cards and Friday night magic.
This is exactly how my FLGS does it and it is doing amazing business. They have had to move locations once and are looking to move again just to have more tables for people to play.
As for the original topic, there's really been no surge? Even with the release of 5E?
5e saw sales spikes during the release but now we're a few years down the road and it looks like everything holding to what it used to be.
My information is from December 2015, so it's a little old at this point. But at that time, during an interview with Angry DM on talking tabletop (a podcast) they brought up the topic on what the status of the industry was because earlier that week Mike Mearls said on twitter that sales growth was steady. This wasn't good news though as all tangent geek-type industries (fantasy books, board games, card games, video games, comics, etc.) are seeing large sales growth.
During the discussion it was agreed that the main problem is the table-top rpg sales method for new players. Basically, most everyone gets into pathfinder and DnD because they knew someone who also played and brought them into it. Their friend/cousin/uncle, etc. either taught them the game or brought them along to join a game. Which means if you don't know anyone who plays your probably never going to hear about it or find a game.
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There's also the fact that no module ever made Barnes and Nobles best seller list, if you get my point. The vast majority of Drizzt fans at this point, are probably not even gamers.
This is definitely true. I have a lot of friends and family that read fantasy. They love Homeland by Salvatore. They have no interest in pathfinder/DnD.
On the store side of things, FLGS need to adapt as businesses always have. Gaming cafe/ store seems to be the new way to go, along with a healthy supply of magic cards and Friday night magic.This is exactly how my FLGS does it and it is doing amazing business. They have had to move locations once and are looking to move again just to have more tables for people to play.
Alcohol.
A game store in the city near me got a liquor license and opened up a bar area in the adjoining storefront. I think this is the future.
