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For me its bookshelf space. I don't "read" the campaign series, player companions or the rulebooks cover to cover. I refer to them, or to d20pfsrd or somewhere else. These do not need to be physical copies for me - they can be electronic.
But I'm not going to spend $16- on the pdf of the campaign setting, or $11 on the companion when the pdf of a hardback rulebook is $9.99. Rather, "if" I get them, it's going to be off Barnes and Nobles's website when they are half off and I can apply my member discount.
Give us an electronic-only version of the campaign setting subscription at 50% off the paperback price and I'll sign up. Until then, I have to pick and choose what I buy. Cause frankly, too much comes out at once.
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Yes, but if you are playing at a game store and not buying stuff there, you are being mean.
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You should buy at least some things at the FLGS in order to keep in business. This especially applies if you are using their store and tables in order to run your game. Those stores cannot stay open if everyone buys product online. I lost a very good FLGS back in the 90's in the advent of online because people thought they were being smart with their money...and it cost us all a chance to meet and play together.
The town I live in now has a wonderful FLGS that has a crap ton of people that play there but most of them also buy from the store as well. I have a Paizo sub for several things as you can see under my name but I buy dice, other companies books and miniatures from the FLGS to help keep it going and to justify my taking up valuable space at a table in their store.
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You should buy at least some things at the FLGS in order to keep in business. This especially applies if you are using their store and tables in order to run your game. Those stores cannot stay open if everyone buys product online. I lost a very good FLGS back in the 90's in the advent of online because people thought they were being smart with their money...and it cost us all a chance to meet and play together.
The town I live in now has a wonderful FLGS that has a crap ton of people that play there but most of them also buy from the store as well. I have a Paizo sub for several things as you can see under my name but I buy dice, other companies books and miniatures from the FLGS to help keep it going and to justify my taking up valuable space at a table in their store.
Thank you for putting it better than I was able to.
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Thank you for putting it better than I was able to.You should buy at least some things at the FLGS in order to keep in business. This especially applies if you are using their store and tables in order to run your game. Those stores cannot stay open if everyone buys product online. I lost a very good FLGS back in the 90's in the advent of online because people thought they were being smart with their money...and it cost us all a chance to meet and play together.
The town I live in now has a wonderful FLGS that has a crap ton of people that play there but most of them also buy from the store as well. I have a Paizo sub for several things as you can see under my name but I buy dice, other companies books and miniatures from the FLGS to help keep it going and to justify my taking up valuable space at a table in their store.
You are welcome and thanks for the compliment. I have seen first hand what online only buying from gamers does to the local gaming scene. It simply kills it dead because the FLGS can't compete with those price points.
I'd rather have a place to play and especially have a place for NEW people to come in and play than save a few bucks.
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Give us an electronic-only version of the campaign setting subscription at 50% off the paperback price and I'll sign up. Until then, I have to pick and choose what I buy. Cause frankly, too much comes out at once.
Yeah. There's a pretty good chance, I'd subscribe to a pure pdf series, Player Companion and/or Core. I might would even PDF-sub to an adventure path to get some DMing in. This is related to my earlier complaint that Paizo is too married to dead tree publishing, though they are still doing a lot better than WotC on that front.
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I grew up on 2nd Ed D&D and 3.X. I personally love the feel of pencil and paper, books, and the like. I will always buy physical copies over e-copies any day. Looking into the future and wanting to be a store owner myself, I try and support local stores whenever possible. Does it cost me extra? Yeah sure, but in return I get the social interaction that I enjoy. Does it mean I do not save money and put it towards other books? Yeah. But in the end, I know I have supported a store owner whose dream was probably to run a game store. Then I get to go back when I decide to make a purchase and have fun all over again.
Nothing wrong with buying online or e-copies, it is just not for me. :-)
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Yeah. There's a pretty good chance, I'd subscribe to a pure pdf series, Player Companion and/or Core. I might would even PDF-sub to an adventure path to get some DMing in. This is related to my earlier complaint that Paizo is too married to dead tree publishing, though they are still doing a lot better than WotC on that front.
Speaking as a grognard old-schooler who still very much enjoys the dead tree version in my hands, I'm rather happy that Paizo still indulges me.
Likewise, I'm also happy Paizo caters to you by providing digital content.
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Paizo doesn't exactly "cater" to the digital set though, otherwise there should be digital subscriptions. Why would I want my house to be more flammable by having a lot of paper books in it? Why does Paizo want to burn down my house?
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Paizo doesn't exactly "cater" to the digital set though,
On the contrary — they offer it, whereas WotC, it seems, does not.
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Paizo doesn't exactly "cater" to the digital set though, otherwise there should be digital subscriptions. Why would I want my house to be more flammable by having a lot of paper books in it? Why does Paizo want to burn down my house?
So that your insurance will pay for new copies and force the errata version of Ultimate Equipment on everyone.
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Paizo doesn't exactly "cater" to the digital set though,On the contrary — they offer it, whereas WotC, it seems, does not.
That's less like catering and more like takeout. Sure I don't have to cook the food myself, but I still have to go and get it.
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Would have been better as day old donuts, because subscribers can get today what I have to wait weeks to get. Except the donuts are like 2 or 3 weeks old by the time I can get my hands on them.
So, it's less like catering and more like 3 week old donuts.
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I was not aware text can go stale.
Errata?
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It's like a duck riding a bear.
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These analogies are very confusing.
{shrugs} It's easier to roll with when you're a slaad. Still very confusing, but being confused just doesn't bug you much anymore.
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As a GM with a family, I finally have come to believe rules bloat is a real thing.
Back in college, or before I had kids, as a GM, I thought it was all fun and dandy and I was willing to stay on top of things.
And even now, when sitting in the player's chair, I like to buy books and try out new things.
But as a GM who has reached his 30s and sleeps less than 6 hours a night, and I've got my one night out a week with the guys, when a player or a published module says "I want to use weird thing X now", my only response is "ugh, I don't have time for this." Finding time to prep for game is hard enough. Staying up to speed on the latest whiz-bang and all the errata and tiering and forum-opinions on it (that my players will be leveraging) is a bridge too far at this point in my gaming life. I love the game, but I am sour on the meta-game.
Keep the modules coming. Keep the setting books coming. But please, for the love of sanity, stop publishing rules, and stop using them in your modules and setting. It really does cause GMs like me to refuse the run the game, and turn to other systems that are inherently self-limiting by virtue of fewer rule books.
- my 2 cents
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There are several 5E D&D Twitch games that are streamed. The players in these games are voice actors and actresses usually in their 20s. The DMs and players are pretty good. I can see why 5E D&D has a solid following among younger people. The game is solid and easy to pick up and play.
I personally prefer Pathfinder with loads of options but I can understand others who prefer 5E. I do not see Pathfinder's presence as much online outside of Paizo.com.
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Keep the modules coming. Keep the setting books coming. But please, for the love of sanity, stop publishing rules, and stop using them in your modules and setting. It really does cause GMs like me to refuse the run the game, and turn to other systems that are inherently self-limiting by virtue of fewer rule books.
100% in agreement...in fact, this is a large part of why I rarely play Pathfinder any more. Unfortunately, I believe people like us are in the minority, so it's tough to (fairly) blame Paizo for NOT catering to us.
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That's less like catering and more like takeout. Sure I don't have to cook the food myself, but I still have to go and get it.Paizo doesn't exactly "cater" to the digital set though,On the contrary — they offer it, whereas WotC, it seems, does not.
I don't really understand that view. Even if there was a digital subscription you'd have to "go and get it" anyway wouldn't you?
As I see it now, when a new campaign book comes out you have to click through the purchase process and then download the PDF. The initial clicks take what, fifteen seconds? That's all that would be saved by a subscription (effort wise).
That's less like catering and more like takeout. Sure I don't have to cook the food myself, but I still have to go and get it.Paizo doesn't exactly "cater" to the digital set though,On the contrary — they offer it, whereas WotC, it seems, does not.I don't really understand that view. Even if there was a digital subscription you'd have to "go and get it" anyway wouldn't you?
As I see it now, when a new campaign book comes out you have to click through the purchase process and then download the PDF. The initial clicks take what, fifteen seconds? That's all that would be saved by a subscription (effort wise).
...which is also exactly true of the physical products, no? Yet they offer a subscription.
I think he has a fair point.
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err, no it's not true of the printed product (it gets delivered without having to download it). I get my subs and never need to visit the website at all.
However, I don't think many people list "not having to go and get it" as the advantage of the subscription anyway. They list things like "getting it early" and "free PDF".
I can see that there might be an advantage offered with a digital subscription, but "not having to go and get it" doesn't seem to be much of one to me.
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I'm an odd bird. I find that if I read something on a monitor, I don't absorb it. Tablet is middle ground - I can take things in, but it's better for reference. Hardcopy is far and away my preferred way of reading rules and setting information.
So I'm absolutely ecstatic that Paizo give me a free PDF with my hardcopy subscription, since it means that I get the hardcopy I prefer, but can just chuck the PDF onto my tablet and use that at the table.
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Dude, having to study up on the new rule sets before being able to host the new adventure modules properly is the only reason my group and I will have the time to be able to host all of the previous adventure paths! Why do you want to take that away from us???
;)
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Culturally, D&D is going to stay in the lead because it came first. Just as many people call all drywall sheetrock and all copiers Xeroxes, many groups I know call any and all fantasy tabletop gaming "D&D."
Even the 4th Edition debacle didn't change that, so of course with 5th being a legitimately pretty good system, why would that change?
With that said... "Observations From a Retailer" is what I like to call "anecdotal evidence." That article's content may be summed up in its entirety as follows:
"One store isn't selling as much Pathfinder stuff as it used to do in part because its staffers seem more inclined to push 5th Edition D&D which has a higher brand name recognition and is also a perfectly fine system."
To which I respond, "but MY local gaming store sells more Pathfinder than D&D because the Pathfinder players are often on hand using the game room so people see it as a fun game they can easily find a group for."
Both of these anecdotal data points are equally meaningless.
But they suffer from the same problem as Kleenix did. The brand became the name for all similar products from it's competitors. D&D is that and has been since I first started playing and that was in the mid 80s.
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It's interesting that so many posts talk about Paizo's rules bloat.
I've got to agree. I'm here for the adventures first, Golarion second and rules options come a distant third.
I do wish that after the first year we'd had one hardcover per year in the RPG line.
I'm supposed to read occult adventures and horror adventures to fully enjoy Strange Aeons. It just puts me off the AP...
I wonder how many groups play 'full pathfinder' with every single Paizo rule book?
The more telling statistic is that while the entire RPG market has grown about 40 percent, the tabletop market doubled in the same period, which means as a percentage overall, paper and dice rpg's in total are in decline.
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err, no it's not true of the printed product (it gets delivered without having to download it). I get my subs and never need to visit the website at all.
However, I don't think many people list "not having to go and get it" as the advantage of the subscription anyway. They list things like "getting it early" and "free PDF".
I can see that there might be an advantage offered with a digital subscription, but "not having to go and get it" doesn't seem to be much of one to me.
Yeah, I guess I don't understand what you mean, then.
If you don't have a book and want it, without a subscription you would have to spend the same 15 seconds to order it as you would a PDF. Shipping, while a delay, requires zero effort on your part. I think that's the point of wanting a PDF subscription option...not having to order things.
But maybe I just don't get what you're saying?
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Well, if a subscription would let one get the pdf early, that would be a definite benefit.
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It should be interesting to see how Starfinder affects "rules bloat."
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err, no it's not true of the printed product (it gets delivered without having to download it). I get my subs and never need to visit the website at all.
However, I don't think many people list "not having to go and get it" as the advantage of the subscription anyway. They list things like "getting it early" and "free PDF".
I can see that there might be an advantage offered with a digital subscription, but "not having to go and get it" doesn't seem to be much of one to me.
Yeah, I guess I don't understand what you mean, then.
If you don't have a book and want it, without a subscription you would have to spend the same 15 seconds to order it as you would a PDF. Shipping, while a delay, requires zero effort on your part. I think that's the point of wanting a PDF subscription option...not having to order things.
But maybe I just don't get what you're saying?
It was a query really. It seemed to me that Melkiador was saying that the desirable thing about a possible PDF subscription is that it's less effort (you don't have to "go and get it").
My thinking is that, with PDFs, your effort is not really reduced much at all - you still have to come to the site and go through the howevermanyclicksandsecondsitis process of downloading your PDF - adding the ordering clicks to that each month isn't actually much extra.
You said it was the same with physical products and although I don't think that's true, I don't really see the relevance because I don't think minimal effort is put forth as a reason for choosing the subscription anyhow (people generally want to get things early, to get the PDF for nothing and to help out Paizo).
Note that my post was deliberately phrased as "I don't understand" not "that's wrong". I may well have misunderstood Melkiador's original passing comment. I wasn't arguing, I just don't see how a PDF subscription saves you any meaningful effort (given you want a PDF). Melkiador may have meant something else (or may highly value the additional fifteen seconds a month a subscription would save).
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Well, if a subscription would let one get the pdf early, that would be a definite benefit.
I could understand that being seen as a perk, however my guess would be that the PDF would come available on street date anyway.
"Getting it early" is not a true benefit of subscribing currently - it's not promised and it doesn't always happen that way. Subscribers nearly always do get their PDFs before the street date, but that's an accidental artefact of paizo's systems rather than a goal - they try to have your book arrive as near as practicable to the day it's available in shops. Given the lag of shipping and the fact your PDF access is linked to the purchase of the hard copy, the net effect is subscribers generally get access early.
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I think it's pretty simple. Some people like a Thing. Some other people like a different Thing that's similar to the previous Thing. Sometimes the first group says their Thing is better than the other's Thing.
Then there's a third group who likes the first Thing for specific reasons and likes the second group's Thing for other reasons. And often play BOTH (or MULTIPLE) Things on a regular basis.
Plainly put Pathfinder is tailored to a group of players who like what Pathfinder provides. These reasons are varied but often involve a familiarity to a ruleset that's been around for over 15 years, extreme depth of character customization, the setting, a full use of their system mastery, a good amount of well-written adventure paths, isn't worried over much about class balance, ect.
D&D 5th Edition is tailored to a group of players who don't like a LOT of rules muddling the waters, has a fair amount of customization but isn't staggering, is fine with more balance across classes, less numbers and less math, a larger amount of campaign settings, and letting the DM set the tone of the campaign with what options are allowed (Races, Classes, Feats, etc).
Different strokes for different folks
It should be interesting to see how Starfinder affects "rules bloat."
Since it is a separate game, it won' be affecting Pathfinder at all.
As to whether it bloats on it's own, that depends on whether it captures enough of a market to become an ongoing concern.
It should be interesting to see how Starfinder affects "rules bloat."Since it is a separate game, it won' be affecting Pathfinder at all.
As to whether it bloats on it's own, that depends on whether it captures enough of a market to become an ongoing concern.
Hasn't this already shown itself to be not true? I believe there was something about Starfinder being *the* GenCon hardback next year, replacing the Pathfinder line up. Call it a special case cuz of the launch or whatever, but making a statement and proving it wrong out the gate doesn't send a good message.
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As a DM, I generally open the floodgates and tell my players "play whatever you want, even 3PP. Just let me see what you want to do first."
I wonder how many groups play 'full pathfinder' with every single Paizo rule book?
Same here. I use all the official Pathfinder books in my games. If I don't have it, and you want to play it, give me a heads up and I'll integrate it. It also helps to trust your players not to get out of hand. Most of my players also realize that if they abuse something, as a GM, I can make it very bad for them.
The more telling statistic is that while the entire RPG market has grown about 40 percent, the tabletop market doubled in the same period, which means as a percentage overall, paper and dice rpg's in total are in decline.It's interesting that so many posts talk about Paizo's rules bloat.
I've got to agree. I'm here for the adventures first, Golarion second and rules options come a distant third.
I do wish that after the first year we'd had one hardcover per year in the RPG line.
I'm supposed to read occult adventures and horror adventures to fully enjoy Strange Aeons. It just puts me off the AP...
I wonder how many groups play 'full pathfinder' with every single Paizo rule book?
That's an interesting thing to note. Myself, I am getting more into boardgames, but finding less and less interest in many of the RPGs out there.
For example, the "modern" RPG methods found in 5e, such as bounded accuracy appeal to some sort of audience that is NOT me.
Pathfinder also is starting to come out with hardback books that I have no interest in buying (Horror Adventures), even if I still really support Pathfinder (still a subscriber for the APs and modules). I just am not one of those that like what some would call so much bloat with the rules. In fact, it's a real turnoff to a degree for me.
Of course, a similar thing could be seen with 3e/3.5 for me, but I was still getting every FR book (even the hardback modules they came out like Shadowdale, etc...) that came out. Those didn't sale as well as the rulebook type things though.
I just find I have very little interest in a LOT of the modern RPG type ideology, so I don't get into things like 13th Age, Numenera, or other RPGs.
But it hasn't really done away my interest in tabletop games per se.
It's kind of a weird dynamic.
PS: For those who like searching, I actually wrote a topic some time ago (two to three years?) that addressed this very item on Paizo. It addressed one of the REAL reasons D&D had cyclically fallen into hard times and the problems in dealing with what arose, as well as the things that MIGHT happen to Pathfinder in a similar time frame.
Who knows if that will or won't happen, but if it does, that post could be of singular interest to any systems that follow the same pattern.
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Well...sort of. With WotC, they don't sell PDFs of the core rules of the most recent edition. However, they do sell the core rules for every other edition they ever published. You can go on OBS right now and buy PDFs from the core rules of OD&D all the way through 4e essentials. The only one you can't buy digitally is the most recent one.
With Paizo, it's the exact opposite. You can very easily purchase the most recent edition of the Core Rulebook in PDF, but if you want any of the older editions, you are out of luck.
You seem to be confusing "edition" and "printing." There is only one edition of Pathfinder (unless you count the beta, I suppose).
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Yeah, I was going to say "which printing of 3rd Ed?"
1st printing of 3? (Mines in storage)
2nd printing Nov 2000?
How about 1st printing of 3.5 July 2003?
Special edition from October 2004?
Perhaps the leather bound ones?
If you can get PDFs of all of those, awesome, and your argument is valid. If not, then no, you're just as limited in editions as you are from Paizo.
I think that's the 'digital subscription' option people want. Being able to 'get it early' without purchasing the paper copy.err, no it's not true of the printed product (it gets delivered without having to download it). I get my subs and never need to visit the website at all.
However, I don't think many people list "not having to go and get it" as the advantage of the subscription anyway. They list things like "getting it early" and "free PDF".
I can see that there might be an advantage offered with a digital subscription, but "not having to go and get it" doesn't seem to be much of one to me.
Yeah, I think many people want that too. I doubt that early perk going to be offered though, even if a PDF subscription to the campaign setting does ever eventuate.
The electronic subscriptions Paizo do currently offer don't grant any early access, as far as I know.
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I think that's the 'digital subscription' option people want. Being able to 'get it early' without purchasing the paper copy.err, no it's not true of the printed product (it gets delivered without having to download it). I get my subs and never need to visit the website at all.
However, I don't think many people list "not having to go and get it" as the advantage of the subscription anyway. They list things like "getting it early" and "free PDF".
I can see that there might be an advantage offered with a digital subscription, but "not having to go and get it" doesn't seem to be much of one to me.
Yeah, I think many people want that too. I doubt that early perk going to be offered though, even if a PDF subscription to the campaign setting does ever eventuate.
The electronic subscriptions Paizo do currently offer don't grant any early access, as far as I know.
Once profit from electronic sales significantly outstrips profit from hardcopy (by enough to make up for losing the entirety of hardcopy sales), then it's possible that Paizo will consider an electronic only sub, but I can't see it happening before that, and there's zero chance that it will offer early access to products.