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Sovereign Court

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Fantasy Flight opened a game center here in the TC that serves wine and beer. You can enjoy the beverages out on the game floor. Its hardly an issue since most folks seem to enjoy in moderation. Blends in completely with the stores family vibe and you wouldn't even know the person next to you was having alcohol.

I attribute a lot of that to how the business presents itself. Its a game store first, an event center second, and a café/bar third. The drinks lean towards the premium side of things so its not like dollar old Milwaukee, lone star, or old style taps. I think FFG has demonstrated a glowing example of how to do it in 2016.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Drunk gamers? In my local stores? No thank you.

I'm fine with players sipping beer at my home games, and frequently do as GM, but we don't want to be the public face of the hobby.


Not Pathfinder but they serve wine and beer at my local boardgame cafe and I've never had an issue with drunk people (even late at night on weekends). As mentioned most people enjoy in moderation.

Grand Lodge

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Hitdice wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Drunk gamers? In my local stores? No thank you.
I'm fine with players sipping beer at my home games, and frequently do as GM, but we don't want to be the public face of the hobby.

It's also an issue for my local store in that having alcohol on the premises is a risk to them due to laws against underage drinking. Having both alcohol and minors in the store puts them in legal trouble. Since there is a liquor store right next door, they have to be vigilant against people bringing in drinks.


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I've never met anyone who could roleplay well while drunk.


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I've met people who only Roleplay while drunk, unable to get into character while sober

Silver Crusade

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I'm one of them. Though it's more being deftly afraid of talking than getting into character.

Sovereign Court

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Why does everything go straight to drunk? There is an in between folks.

Shadow Lodge

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Pan wrote:
Why does everything go straight to drunk?

Experience.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pan wrote:
Why does everything go straight to drunk?

A year in a dry village...

And the fact that public drinking culture, at least in the parts of this country that I've seen it, encourages drunkenness as the outright goal.


It sounds like FFG has the right idea. We have a local brewery that often ends up a place for games and drinks. The games tend to happen during the daytime hours (business is slower and many families come in for the very tasty sandwiches and family atmosphere). I don't think I've seen any RPG being played, but (board)games, studying groups, knitting circles and even a band of post-partum mothers for a nursing and social circle have enjoyed the setting, food and drink.


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I have crippling stage fright so I can only GM for my wife and kids.

Sovereign Court

TOZ wrote:
Pan wrote:
Why does everything go straight to drunk?
Experience.

Sorry to hear that. Also, sorry about your local shops woes.


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

That just sucks, captain yesterday. I hope your wife and kids at least enjoy the game. Can you play as a character in another GM's game?


Melkiador wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
The issue is CRBs which (usually) represent new players. You don't get your CRB by subscription. I suspect most aren't bought online at all. It doesn't matter what any other book is doing, if you've stopped moving the basic entry level player book you've stopped growing and started dieing.
Paizo's business model seems to be to give the core away for free though. 95% of those books are in the PRD on this site. My guess is that most of the profit is from adventure paths and player companions.

Not to mention that if a player wants to "catch up". the likely way they enter the game is a steady game with friends who let them borrow a copy of books or use free online resources until one of Paizo's great deals which include things like the CRB and beginner box and dozens of other material for far less money yet still constitutes a significant investment... and then you have a somewhat experienced player with a generally unneeded starter kit... who then hopefully uses it to teach their non-gaming friends/family the basics and repeat the process... most of that volume won't be seen in store sales and will in fact reduce core sales in stores.

As what use they could make for a Second Edition soon... I could see them simultaneously releasing a "Second Edition" that is essentially the same as first edition, maybe starting with a CRB that serves the same purpose as the current beginner box, and then mostly is just a reorganizing and streamlining of first edition rules, like releasing books for specific classes that get updated like encyclopedia entries(so you could have books including the entirety of Fighter archetypes and things like their advanced training), then new players could buy what they want to play and not worry about their class being under or over powered because they don't possess book x or book y and the GM doesn't need to figure out what they need to fact check, while Paizo releases "new" content in "first edition" while releasing re-organized content in "second edition" only after it sufficiently amassed to sell in a more organized fashion, allowing interplay for both while the later provides a better platform for new players to join and the former supplies more regular content.


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M1k31 wrote:
I could see them simultaneously releasing a "Second Edition" that is essentially the same as first edition, maybe starting with a CRB that serves the same purpose as the current beginner box, and then mostly is just a reorganizing and streamlining of first edition rules, like releasing books for specific classes that get updated like encyclopedia entries(so you could have books including the entirety of Fighter archetypes and things like their advanced training), then new players could buy what they want to play and not worry about their class being under or over powered because they don't possess book x or book y and the GM doesn't need to figure out what they need to fact check, while Paizo releases "new" content in "first edition" while releasing re-organized content in "second edition" only after it sufficiently amassed to sell in a more organized fashion, allowing interplay for both while the later provides a better platform for new players to join and the former supplies more regular content.

That....is a long sentence. :p


thejeff wrote:
Thaine wrote:
Grond wrote:
Browman wrote:
On the store side of things, FLGS need to adapt as businesses always have. Gaming cafe/ store seems to be the new way to go, along with a healthy supply of magic cards and Friday night magic.
This is exactly how my FLGS does it and it is doing amazing business. They have had to move locations once and are looking to move again just to have more tables for people to play.

Alcohol.

A game store in the city near me got a liquor license and opened up a bar area in the adjoining storefront. I think this is the future.

I really hope not. Adjoining storefront maybe, though I don't see how that really works.

First, I'm not really interested in gaming with drunk strangers.
Second, tying gaming to alcohol cuts off bringing young people into the hobby.

I'd say 90% of my gaming when I was at college was with drunk gamers. Well, they weren't drunk when we started, but by 3 AM most of them were drunk at that point. Made for some really unique adventures, you really get to know what people are really like at that time.

Of course, most gamestores will not be open at that time either.

Now days, I game with Mothers and sisters and nieces and friends. None of the group drinks. No one is drunk. Much more family friendly atmosphere to say the least.


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There is a very obvious problem with doing anything movie-wise in Menzoberranzan. Drow have dark skin. How much cruelty, demons, murder, and the pure evil the city is described as do you think you need to make national news about racism?


Sissyl wrote:
There is a very obvious problem with doing anything movie-wise in Menzoberranzan. Drow have dark skin. How much cruelty, demons, murder, and the pure evil the city is described as do you think you need to make national news about racism?

I wonder how much of a problem that would be if the Drow were given an unusual skin tone.

"This movie is racist against dark purple people!"


Sissyl wrote:
There is a very obvious problem with doing anything movie-wise in Menzoberranzan. Drow have dark skin. How much cruelty, demons, murder, and the pure evil the city is described as do you think you need to make national news about racism?

Depending on how it's done, I doubt you'd get very much.

Other than dark skin, drow don't really resemble Africans. Facial features are different. Hair is different. The skin color isn't actually much like real African "black".
Even their evil doesn't match racist stereotypes. The culture doesn't match racial stereotypes.


A purple Drizzt sounds great. :-)


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Just please, no one in blackface.

We don't need to set Hollywood back sixty years just to make a movie. :-)

Dark Archive

I think Downey did it best, play himself playing someone in black face


captain yesterday wrote:

Just please, no one in blackface.

We don't need to set Hollywood back sixty years just to make a movie. :-)

Honestly? I think it has to be blackface. Just not really "blackface.

They're not "black". An African doesn't look like a Drow. You'd need to put makeup on an African actor anyway.

Sovereign Court

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Snowblind wrote:


"This movie is racist against dark purple people!"

So long as they don't have purple people eaters.


Snowblind wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
There is a very obvious problem with doing anything movie-wise in Menzoberranzan. Drow have dark skin. How much cruelty, demons, murder, and the pure evil the city is described as do you think you need to make national news about racism?

I wonder how much of a problem that would be if the Drow were given an unusual skin tone.

"This movie is racist against dark purple people!"

Apparently, poking around the net, purple is a common color for pictures of Drow. Not sure why.


thejeff wrote:
Apparently, poking around the net, purple is a common color for pictures of Drow. Not sure why.

It's because the darker a skin tone is, the harder it is to show details of the skin and face. It's the reason that Beast and Nightcrawler are blue; and the reason that the Hulk is green instead of his original dark grey.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Snowblind wrote:


"This movie is racist against dark purple people!"
So long as they don't have purple people eaters.

If the D&D movie doesn't have purple worms, I'm boycotting it.


I don't see how sales of physical books in B&M stores is a reasonable comparison, when one of the two systems also sells PDF's, and the other is terrified of the possibility.

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
There is a very obvious problem with doing anything movie-wise in Menzoberranzan. Drow have dark skin. How much cruelty, demons, murder, and the pure evil the city is described as do you think you need to make national news about racism?

I wonder how much of a problem that would be if the Drow were given an unusual skin tone.

"This movie is racist against dark purple people!"

Apparently, poking around the net, purple is a common color for pictures of Drow. Not sure why.

I think that they're actually supposed to be totally black (not dark brown), and purple is the common artist trick to give highlights/depth to black. Sort of like how Superman's hair isn't blue despite the common use of it on his hair in the comics.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
There is a very obvious problem with doing anything movie-wise in Menzoberranzan. Drow have dark skin. How much cruelty, demons, murder, and the pure evil the city is described as do you think you need to make national news about racism?

I wonder how much of a problem that would be if the Drow were given an unusual skin tone.

"This movie is racist against dark purple people!"

Apparently, poking around the net, purple is a common color for pictures of Drow. Not sure why.
I think that they're actually supposed to be totally black (not dark brown), and purple is the common artist trick to give highlights/depth to black. Sort of like how Superman's hair isn't blue despite the common use of it on his hair in the comics.

Yeah, that's probably it. Though I think it's taken on a life of it's own, since some of the purple ones are pretty light purple.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
I don't see how sales of physical books in B&M stores is a reasonable comparison, when one of the two systems also sells PDF's, and the other is terrified of the possibility.

Because it's not about the number of pdf sales or a comparison with WotC sales, it's an observation that there are less physical copies being sold at a (F)LGS than used to be the case. The comparison is between Pathfinder sales in the past and Pathfinder sales now.


Does this correlate with less FLGSs?


captain yesterday wrote:

Just please, no one in blackface.

We don't need to set Hollywood back sixty years just to make a movie. :-)

Does it really count as blackface if it's straight dark makeup without any of the other characteristic modifications?

Movie legolas or elrond painted black certainly doesn't evoke blackface in my mind.

Though I do agree dark purple [or blue] is best.

Sovereign Court

Sissyl wrote:
Does this correlate with less FLGSs?

Has the # of FLGs dropped recently? I thought that they'd remained pretty steady since the CCG bust, the increase in total market more than canceling out the business lost to online sales.

(Sure, some open and some close, but that's true of any business type, especially the kind which many open primarily to be 'fun' rather than primarily to make $.)


I think instead of PF2.0 Paizo will keep publishing unchained books, I only hope they include ways to introduces variants without as much rework as possible into pre-made material


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Does this correlate with less FLGSs?

Has the # of FLGs dropped recently? I thought that they'd remained pretty steady since the CCG bust, the increase in total market more than canceling out the business lost to online sales.

(Sure, some open and some close, but that's true of any business type, especially the kind which many open primarily to be 'fun' rather than primarily to make $.)

If anything there might be a slight increase overall, as 'hobby games' are growing strongly. There are two that opened not far from me in the last two or three years. What they (and the older ones I visit) aren't doing is devoting as much space to RPGs as to other types of game - board games, card games, miniature games. That in itself probably doesn't help sales of RPGs, it's harder to sell things you don't stock, but it's also fair to say there's little reason to stock things that don't sell well. Of course the specific article under discussion is one stores perspective, so who knows how widespread the trend they observe is.

Sovereign Court

Bluenose wrote:
What they (and the older ones I visit) aren't doing is devoting as much space to RPGs as to other types of game - board games, card games, miniature games.

True, but part of that is how dense of a value most RPGs have. From what I understand, RPGs are known to have a lower turn rate than any of the other 3 main game-store categories (CCG/mini/board games) but their advantage to the store is that they're denser. It's not hard to get 10k worth of RPG books in 15-20ish sq feet of space (maybe 40-50 with walking space). While their turn rate is lower, that square footage probably sells the 2nd most $ after wherever they keep the latest MTG boosters. :P

While most board games are more expensive than a single RPG book, they take up far more space. The same is true of minis. (CCGs are a bit denser than RPGs, but beyond MTG and 1-2 flavors of the month, they're getting diminishing returns by stocking them.)

From the same perspective, filling up too much space with RPGs is a hugely expensive initial outlay.


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Does this correlate with less FLGSs?

Has the # of FLGs dropped recently? I thought that they'd remained pretty steady since the CCG bust, the increase in total market more than canceling out the business lost to online sales.

(Sure, some open and some close, but that's true of any business type, especially the kind which many open primarily to be 'fun' rather than primarily to make $.)

I have seen the three nearest FLGSs to me all close in recent years, with no new stores opening. Of course, I am not counting comic book stores or Barnes and Noble for this purpose -- some of them may have opened near me.

Does anyone live in an area where new FLGSs have opened recently?

Sovereign Court

David knott 242 wrote:


Does anyone live in an area where new FLGSs have opened recently?

Bluenose above just said that he'd had two open up recently.

I had a Games Workshop close near me recently, but it had only been open for a couple of years and never did very well. It was in a high rent area, and it only had 2 game tables. It was rather poorly designed (and it had a ton of unused space in the back due to weird rent reasons) and I think its failure is a combination of Games Workshop in general doing poorly the last several years, and there's a longstanding FLGS 5-8 miles from it which gives 15% off all Games Workshop stuff. (and has more tables)


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
What they (and the older ones I visit) aren't doing is devoting as much space to RPGs as to other types of game - board games, card games, miniature games.

True, but part of that is how dense of a value most RPGs have. From what I understand, RPGs are known to have a lower turn rate than any of the other 3 main game-store categories (CCG/mini/board games) but their advantage to the store is that they're denser. It's not hard to get 10k worth of RPG books in 15-20ish sq feet of space (maybe 40-50 with walking space). While their turn rate is lower, that square footage probably sells the 2nd most $ after wherever they keep the latest MTG boosters. :P

While most board games are more expensive than a single RPG book, they take up far more space. The same is true of minis. (CCGs are a bit denser than RPGs, but beyond MTG and 1-2 flavors of the month, they're getting diminishing returns by stocking them.)

From the same perspective, filling up too much space with RPGs is a hugely expensive initial outlay.

You also don't actually need all that much space. I mean how much space would it actually take to stock a couple copies of each pathfinder hardcover and a selection of other products? 2 shelves on an normal sized bookshelf? Most game stores I have seen has 1 maybe 2 bookshelves with rpg stuff in it and that can actually equal a really impressive selection. The only time it ends up taking more space is when they include side materials in the same display, IE maps, minis etc. But more often then not I see those in a different area of the store.

I mean you only need to see the spine of a book to brows a selection, that's how books work. And rpgs are mostly books. Where as board games, take up more space, particularly if you want to show off the top cover art that often helps sell the product. Minis, same thing, they often have elaborate art, or are in clear packages to display the minis. Or come in boxes akin to board games if not bigger in some cases.

I see this reflected in my own home. Storage of rpg materials is almost nothing compared to board games and miniature games.

I don't think the amount of shelf space matters, its more whether or not the store actually stocks the latest products and has a good selection. If it does, I would say rpgs are well selected there even if they are just a small corner of the store.

Sovereign Court

Kolokotroni wrote:


You also don't actually need all that much space. I mean how much space would it actually take to stock a couple copies of each pathfinder hardcover and a selection of other products? 2 shelves on an normal sized bookshelf? Most game stores I have seen has 1 maybe 2 bookshelves with rpg stuff in it and that can actually equal a really impressive selection. The only time it ends up taking more space is when they include side materials in the same display, IE maps, minis etc. But more often then not I see those in a different area of the store.

I mean you only need to see the spine of a book to brows a selection, that's how books work. And rpgs are mostly books. Where as board games, take up more space, particularly if you want to show off the top cover art that often helps sell the product. Minis, same thing, they often have elaborate art, or are in clear packages to display the minis. Or come in boxes akin to board games if not bigger in some cases.

I see this reflected in my own home. Storage of rpg materials is almost nothing compared to board games and miniature games.

I don't think the amount of shelf space matters, its more whether or not the store actually stocks the latest products and has a good selection. If it does, I would say rpgs are well selected there even if they are just a small corner of the store.

I agree: that was exactly my point (with added ramblings about product mix selection). Just because less space is devoted to RPGs doesn't mean that less of the store is devoted to RPGs as a % of inventory.


I still odd to assume that bringing in new customers = growing. Surely we'd need some way to measure people leaving?

Sovereign Court

bugleyman wrote:
I still find it odd to assume that bringing in new customers = growing. Surely we'd need some way to measure people leaving?

True - but it's the easier metric to watch. And, as we know that some players are always leaving, a decent amount of new blood is needed even to tread water.

For a game as modular as Pathfinder, it's hard to track veteran players through sales, but it's relatively easy to figure out if someone is new when they buy the CRB. (Though probably harder for Pathfinder than other systems due to the free resources online.)


Being that Paizo basically gives away their core books, the only meaningful comparison would be in sales of modules/adventures. If sales of those are going down too, then I'd start to be concerned.


Melkiador wrote:
Being that Paizo basically gives away their core books, the only meaningful comparison would be in sales of modules/adventures. If sales of those are going down too, then I'd start to be concerned.

It is also a question of where their books go... if you leave the hobby forever it doesn't seem likely you won't gift or give any hardcovers away to friends for cheap... I mean they do represent a decent expense and storage issue.


Sissyl wrote:
There is a very obvious problem with doing anything movie-wise in Menzoberranzan. Drow have dark skin. How much cruelty, demons, murder, and the pure evil the city is described as do you think you need to make national news about racism?

Somehow, that was not a problem that came up either making or showing Thor: The Dark World. And not even one of the dark elves in that movie was a wanna be good guy.

And there is no requirement that the first Drizzt movie be set in Menzoberranzan. I think that the Crystal Shard trilogy would be an excellent first movie series to start with.

Do Menzoberranzan AFTER the series has established itself as a popular franchise.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
There is a very obvious problem with doing anything movie-wise in Menzoberranzan. Drow have dark skin. How much cruelty, demons, murder, and the pure evil the city is described as do you think you need to make national news about racism?

Somehow, that was not a problem that came up either making or showing Thor: The Dark World. And not even one of the dark elves in that movie was a wanna be good guy.

I'd thought of that too, but I don't think the dark elves in that were actually dark in color. Most of them were white masked in full body armor, but Malekith was corpse white.


Hopefully it would be offset by having the main character (Drizzt) being a dark elf with a heart of gold but I think your right and that it'd be a problem anyway.

I hate how nowadays you can't just have a character be a character, they're ambassadors of their race/gender/culture/religion/creed/etc.


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David knott 242 wrote:
Does anyone live in an area where new FLGSs have opened recently?

Define "recently."

In general, Colorado Springs has been even from what I can tell. There's a few places I knew about that are gone, but there are new ones, too. One is the place that has a liquor license I mentioned a few posts back, which seems relatively new (the building they're in is only a few years old). There are a few that I never knew about until recently, though I don't know how long they've been around. One of the ones that disappeared was in a mall, which hardly counts since malls are dying anyway.

The place I like the best dedicates a very limited amount of space to D&D/Pathfinder (2 chest-high bookshelves), maybe only a few % of the store, with another few % to miniatures. Both are about equal in space, actually, though there are far more Pathfinder products available, it's display is just condensed more. Charon's Little Helper did mention product density, after all.

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