hey guys,
while adventuring through an ancient temple of a long forgotten civilization our party came across some strange writing in a language none of us recognized. we safely assumed it was the language of these lost people.
I attempted to use Comprehend Languages on the writing only to be told by the DM that after casting I was still unable to understand anything about the writing. the spell fizzled and it was still gibberish to my character.
I asked the DM later why this was the case (as the writing was not magical or warded) and her explanation was that because the race/civilization that wrote the passage was so magically powerful but so ancient that the magic of the 'multiverse' had forgotten it or changed over time enough that the spell (using 'modern day' magic) was unable to decipher it at all.
I find myself increasingly dissatisfied with this explanation because the writing was of a mundane (albeit ancient) language and it was not warded. there was nothing magical to suggest why the spell would totally fail.
I understand that this is her ultimate decision as the DM and didn't argue with her further. however the more I think about it, the more disappointed i am with the answer and outcome. if in fact the magic of the multiverse did change/evolve over the ages, or that the language was so ancient that magic was unable to recognize it fully/at all, why not explain that after casting the spell I am not able to understand all of the passage but jumbled concepts and vague manings? instead of the spell failing completely.
what are your thoughts. am I over thinking this? should I move on? or was it unsatisfactory Dm'ing on her part?
thanks!
P.S. we are playing in the pathfinder Golarion campaign setting.
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This probably wasn't the most elegant way for the DM to handle that, but give them a break here.
There are a couple of possibilities. One is that the GM didn't even have any text for this sign, and so came up with an answer that she hoped would cover that. Another is that it is significant information that is planned to be revealed to you, but part and parcel of the quest she designed is finding a way to decipher it, and she didn't consider what a simple spell like comprehend language would do to her adventure, and so is preventing it from working to make the game still be fun.
Like I said, probably not the most elegant of solutions, but give your poor GM a break and try and work with them to make the game fun, rather that picking on them for not being perfect at it. I expect you will have a lot more fun if you choose that option.
And it is in general perfectly acceptable for the GM to create situations that 'break' or are 'outside' of the normal rules. A special language that can't be deciphered with magic is not outside the bounds of what could be used in an adventure design. Ideally this should be telegraphed ahead in some way, so that players don't react exactly you did and feel the GM is just arbitrarily neutralizing their abilities (and I agree that most likely that is exactly what happened this particular time.) If you had gone to the ancient temple already knowing that one of things that was so interesting about it was that even the most powerful magic couldn't decipher the inscriptions found there, you would have probably been excited rather than annoyed and finding writing your couldn't read.
GMs aren't perfect though, they screw up, have to cover sometimes, make all sorts of mistakes and have a variety of other problems. Give them a break though, work with them to tell the story and remember that in general they are putting in a lot of work to try and make this a fun experience for everyone.
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This is why you put skill points in linguistics and knowledge history. Backup systems, man.
For me this would be one of those warning signs that my DM might not understand what can be reasonably accomplished by characters (and spells) at different levels.
Hopefully this isn't indicative of any bigger patterns, but keep an eye out for other "surprise your abilities don't work" situations.
In the meantime I'd move on though. A single GM kludge is not a dealbreaker for me.
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My view as a GM is.... that that was lazy GM'ing.
I think an easy fix would be if your GM had said you had to roll against spell resistance for it to work. Maybe at a DC 50 or something stupid.
This way you know why you failed (In character even) and there's an attainable goal (potentially attainable anyway).
Maybe talk to your GM about this so they're more prepared next time.
It's the GM's game, so their word is law, but the more GM fiat they bring in to hamper the players the less fun it is for everyone.
Talking is always the answer when someone's upset about a game.
Honestly your GM's mistake was giving you an out of character explanation of that instead of letting you find out in game.
Whether 'ancient civilization rewrites its own language out of view of modern magic' is a good answer or a lame one is more a question of writing skill than game-running skill. Putting aside the matter of when and how it was explained, I'd certainly agree that it probably could have been explained better.
Sounds like she is pulling the old 'Tardis Translation Circuit is out of it's element trick'.
This could be for a couple reasons:
1) She had nothing prepared for that wall text and did not want to make up something on the spot that would potentially backfire on her later on.
2) That text is a vital clue with some other means of translation that will be revealed with further adventure.
3) She simply forgot about Comprehend Languages and was caught off guard so said what she did.
4) This is how her game world works and strange stuff happens.
5) Other stuff I have not thought of.
I guess the questions I have are is this the first time she has GMed? Is this a home made adventure? Perhaps the text is psionic or was inscribed with Words of Power and as such does not detect properly to detect magic?
Honestly I would not worry about it too much. It is always disappointing when we have the right spell for the job and it fails out of hand but I would not worry about it unless not knowing what that text says gets you killed later.
Did anyone try to decipher it with Linguistics?
Possibly out of touch question. Conceptually, alongside divination spells was the concept that they didn't always work. This could be from deliberate action, or as a side effect to catastrophe, or any number of things. Even characters had and ( I thought) have access to limited forms of this.
Is this no longer the case?
Why was OP upset enough about the failure of a first level spell to provide instant information that he tasked the GM on it afterwards? My answer as a GM would have been, "Maybe that is something your character should be trying to work out." The GM went above and beyond to provide the easy reader version of the answer, but this wasn't enough I guess, as OP went further to post here (to get ammo to go back to His GM?)
Seems to me that the player is more upset that the information given was "unsatisfactural" on a personal level. Life doesn't always give you what you want, don't be surprized when stuff like this happens.
Did you, in character, attempt to make a Knowledge Arcane or Knowledge History or Linguistics check to see why this issue occured? Or did you just flip out and demand an explination post game?
The only thing wrong I see that your DM did was sharing Information with you that you don't know ICly, just to satisfy you as a player. Think about skill checks or plot devices you can look at next time, instead of huffing and puffing your 1st level spell didnt solve ALL your problems.
It might seem lazy, but there are other ways to figure out to solve this problem. Sometimes it takes a little more elbow grease to figure out a problem then waving around your finger saying "I cast XXXX Spell to solve all my problems."
There are - or at least were - languages around which could not be deciphered by comprehend languages, since the script covered only half of the information. The most famous example being the touch script of the mindflayers in D&D.
There was one case where the script was on the outside of a wall of a chamber which was warded by an AMF, which just covered the outer surface, too. It would have blocked the translation, too, but we were not trying to read it, we were trying to break it down.
I don't think this was an example of living runes either, who change their meaning while you study them.
I assume that in this case the DM did not have an actual text to give you and made the explanation up. It is usually best to make something up on the fly, if the descriptive text mentions runes and signs and a player asks "what do they say?". It is even better, if you can make up something that makes sense and gives the caster some satisfaction - such spells do far less so than nuking down demons, so nothing wrong with doing that.
It is entirely possible that the GM had simply put in that writing as aesthetics to decorate the ancient civilization passed.
GM: "There's some weird type of furnature, there's some glass that has actually started to crumble back into sand, some old, unintelligible writing in a forgotten script, some sort of pattern on the floor, and an old, breezy shaft in the floor, leading down, its ladder long since destroyed."
Player: "I detect Magic and look around the room."
GM: "You take a look and find no magic present."
Player: "Cool. I cast Comprehend Languages and read the ancient writing."
GM (Oh no...I have no godly idea what that writing might say...) "Uhh, the spell fizzles, and the writing continues to look like gibberish."
This used to happen to me before I got my improv chops up to scratch, when a PC would ask about or exploit some overlooked detail I never accounted for. This is only a possibility, though; I have no idea how green your GM is.
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I think the GM should have rolled her eyes in the back of her head as far as she could and progressively louder and louder chant "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" ultimately grabbing and shaking the table and made your character go insane. :P
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Think about skill checks or plot devices you can look at next time, instead of huffing and puffing your 1st level spell didnt solve ALL your problems.
What about expecting your 1st level spell to solve the one problem it is supposed to solve - not being able to understand a written or spoken language?
Mysterious runes that can't be translated magically are great and all, but players should also be able to expect that their characters' abilities function as described. And while a GM can block abilities they should avoid the appearance of arbitrarily taking something away from a player.
The GM could have/should have handled this a bit better, but GMs aren't perfect and I'd definitely suggest moving on. If it's really bugging you, or if it turns into a pattern, have a polite conversation with the GM explaining your disappointment and asking if in the future she'd be able to give you a little more than "surprise gibberish." (There's some good advice to be had in this thread and elsewhere in planning for divination, which might be useful if she's a relatively new GM.)
GM (Oh no...I have no godly idea what that writing might say...) "Uhh, the spell fizzles, and the writing continues to look like gibberish."
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Reminds me of Doctor Who. He's got a universal translator that will decipher every single language in all of space and time.
Except when he doesn't. Every once in a while they'll find some writing or languages that the TARDIS never encountered... and THAT... Shouldn't be POSSIBLE!?!?!!
They turn things like that into a huge plot point and a basis for the setting.
I'd say run with it. There is something kinda cool about finding language that even magic doesn't recognize anymore!!
Easy way for the GM to wiggle out of this, if she needs to: Comprehend Languages "does not decipher codes or reveal messages concealed in otherwise normal text." So the OP could easily have deciphered the words without having a real clue to the meaning. Come to think of it, that in and of itself could be a neat plot hook.
This is about the only explanation I have seen posted that I can accept. It is a simple explanation that fits without having to change the fundamental rules of the universe. I see magic as a fundamental force of the universe. Like gravity and time its existence is not dependent on anyone understanding it. While our understanding of it may change and its presence may vary it underlining rules do not change.
Another explanation I could accept would be that the concepts of the writing may be something that is beyond the characters understanding. Think of someone from Golarion reading a manual for setting up a computer network. Even if he can understand the words they don’t really make sense. They would probably think that Ethernet is a net designed to capture ghosts. This would mean that this particular writing may not be translatable but others from the same language may be.
I think that either the GM is being lazy and not thinking things through, or he is not explaining himself very well.
Why would you expect a fundamental force like magic to be consistent when magic itself is wildly inconsistent?
Take Comprehend Languages: it can read languages but not codes, even though a code and a language of identical form are functionally the same. Hell, historically, obscure dialects have even been used to send coded messages.
The only difference is intent. A language is intended to be understood, a code is not. Well, a language is intended to be understood only by those fluent, and a code is intended to be understood only by those who know the code, or in other words, fluent. So, no, there isn't even a difference in intent.
For all purposes a code is a language; one can be comprehended by magic, the other cannot because... reasons. Why should a GM need a better reason for something to not be comprehended?
Rub-Eta said:
If it was a coded message, the DM should say so.
I often agree with you, but not this time.
The DM decides what works, and what doesn't, that is what a DM does.
The DM explains what he wants to explain to protect the storyline.
The DM's job is to put out a fun and interesting game. period.
The DM put the work into putting the game together, and is not required to conform to our bias as to how the game is played.
This is not a post from the DM asking how he could have handled it better.
(Note that this was not a PFS game, so it does not need to conform to that advertising model.)
Couldn't an unreadable sign be a clue?
Must it be a sign of incompetence or an affront to the player?
(Note that this was not a PFS game, so it does not need to conform to that advertising model.) =/= The players should be aware of what rules they're playing by.
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Couldn't an unreadable sign be a clue?
Must it be a sign of incompetence or an affront to the player?
Not always, but OP already said they were "adventuring through an ancient temple of a long forgotten civilization" and "assumed it was the language of these lost people" so having the GM say that the spell failed because the civilization was so old and powerful isn't really new or useful information.
If they found magically unreadable runes scrawled in a dusty room in a still-occupied fort that would be much more interesting.
And yes, if it's a coded message and the player expressed confusion about the spell failing then the GM should have reminded the player that codes are the most common reason / the only RAW reason for Comprehend Languages to fail. (I certainly wouldn't expect the GM to warn the player about a coded message before they used the spell.)
Not new information, true.
But possibly useful getting the party looking for some form of Rosetta Stone.
When I ran a similar themed campaign, (Only about a year real time) the part had to work out a ghost translator to get past that set of barriers.
I did give my standard warning that things written in the rule books are not gospel in my games. In 40 years of gaming I only ever had to toss one continually ....hurt rules lawyer out of my games. Generally it took inappropriate behavior to get someone tossed. Fortunately that was rare.
I should point out that rules predictability is less important to me as a player and as a GM, and is far less important to me than a good story. So I guess the perception of unfairness some people are upset about just doesn't resonate with me. It is hard for me to see that as the important thing here. Just different approaches I guess, would be an awfully dull world if we all looked at things the same way.
Comprehend languages is not a bulletproof solution to understanding unknown text. Suck it up, read the description of the spell, and quit whining.
Player: As a player, I can understand being upset if you have Comprehend Languages as one of only a couple of spells in a day, and it may be a worthless spell if this is the way the GM usually runs. If you made that investment, particularly on a Bard or Sorcerer where this potentially is taking up half your first level spells known at level 1, I would ask the GM if this is going to be a common occurrence and then request a spell swap if so.
GM: As a GM, if this is information being hidden is critical to the plot, I would recommend saying the book/whatever was tattered so far as the broken condition, or else you are just going to have to come up with a method to bypass a casting of the Mending spell next.
So, the GM potentially needs Magical writing (to block Comprehend Languages), and Broken (enough to block Mending). If that's a bridge too far, do not lay out clues that you do not want deciphered.
For a low level crew, I would probably fudge rule and tell the player he somehow stopped the casting when he realized it was going to fail. I would NEVER tell him why, that is the party's job to work out. I would also not make this a recurring fudge.
EDIT/ADD
I take issue with the whole idea that an experienced GM should overrule his own judgment for rules as written. I have character sheets and DM notes older than the majority of the developers. Heck, I have riding boots older than them. I am capable of making fair decisions that promote the storyline. Disclaimer, I do not do PFS.
For a low level crew, I would probably fudge rule and tell the player he somehow stopped the casting when he realized it was going to fail. I would NEVER tell him why, that is the party's job to work out. I would also not make this a recurring fudge.
EDIT/ADD
I take issue with the whole idea that an experienced GM should overrule his own judgment for rules as written. I have character sheets and DM notes older than the majority of the developers. Heck, I have riding boots older than them. I am capable of making fair decisions that promote the storyline. Disclaimer, I do not do PFS.
The real issue is that the GM has the attitude of "You want to do things your way? No. Do them my way. I don't care if your way should work. My way is the way it has to happen. I want this story to unfold how I want it to, and I will blatantly screw with whatever I need to in order to facilitate that, even if it means totally disregarding the part of the implied social contract that expects me to abide by the rules when reasonable."
The fact that the GM disregarded the rules is a symptom of the real problem. The real problem seems to be that the GM is happy to set fire to player agency when it is convenient.
This seems to be a lot smaller of a deal than people make it out to be...
I get it. You have an important plot point, then you realize you didn't plan it through all the way, and when the player uses Comprehend Languages, you go $#@%! So you just quickly fudge it to save the story. It's a last resort thing and not really a power abuse. I suppose the best way to avoid it is to plan ahead, but it's unfair to expect someone to meticulously plot every detail when it's a group and not a full published document. Maybe there could have been a warning that the spell wouldn't have worked, but that was on the spot and in the past anyways. The GM isn't nerfing anyone or trying to make anyone lose or have a bad time, so I see no problem.
Just, forgive and forget!
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Easy way for the GM to wiggle out of this, if she needs to: Comprehend Languages "does not decipher codes or reveal messages concealed in otherwise normal text." So the OP could easily have deciphered the words without having a real clue to the meaning. Come to think of it, that in and of itself could be a neat plot hook.
I had an adventure that the group had to retrieve a holy book from thieves that contained info pertinent to the campaign but didn't want it known too early and knew comprehend languages would spoiler it so had book written in code/cipher with hints others had guessed at written in margins to limit what players could learn from the book. I even printed a 'book' with actual adventure text changed by replacing letters of the text with gibberish. The book was a hit cause they had actual info even if they couldn't use it.
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This seems to be a lot smaller of a deal than people make it out to be...
I get it. You have an important plot point, then you realize you didn't plan it through all the way, and when the player uses Comprehend Languages, you go $#@%! So you just quickly fudge it to save the story. It's a last resort thing and not really a power abuse. I suppose the best way to avoid it is to plan ahead, but it's unfair to expect someone to meticulously plot every detail when it's a group and not a full published document. Maybe there could have been a warning that the spell wouldn't have worked, but that was on the spot and in the past anyways. The GM isn't nerfing anyone or trying to make anyone lose or have a bad time, so I see no problem.
Just, forgive and forget!
What makes you think that the Comp Langs thing was an oversight and not planned?
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What makes you think that the Comp Langs thing was an oversight and not planned?This seems to be a lot smaller of a deal than people make it out to be...
I get it. You have an important plot point, then you realize you didn't plan it through all the way, and when the player uses Comprehend Languages, you go $#@%! So you just quickly fudge it to save the story. It's a last resort thing and not really a power abuse. I suppose the best way to avoid it is to plan ahead, but it's unfair to expect someone to meticulously plot every detail when it's a group and not a full published document. Maybe there could have been a warning that the spell wouldn't have worked, but that was on the spot and in the past anyways. The GM isn't nerfing anyone or trying to make anyone lose or have a bad time, so I see no problem.
Just, forgive and forget!
That's true. It's still possible that it was just the best explanation that could have been come up with. Honestly though, I think this would be better worked out talking to the GM, rather than the internet. People here are very quickly heated and judgmental. Have you seen the Lightning Blaster Caster thread going on?
Why should a GM need a better reason for something to not be comprehended?The players should be aware of what rules they're playing by. It is, in general, bad form and practice as a DM to arbitrarly and rules contradictingly say "no" to invalidate player agency.
If it was a coded message, the DM should say so.
Comprehend language does not decipher codes, nor does it even tell the caster that a message is, in fact, coded. The GM absolutely should not tell the player the message was coded.
Besides what's the difference between "code" and "forgotten language, etc, etc" other than one is a well thought out reason why the text can't be deciphered and the other is a lame, zero-thought excuse?
Both have exactly the same effect on the game mechanics: comprehend language doesn't work and the players need to use the GM's method to decipher the text.
In what fathomable scenario is a well planned, well flavored, well executed foil for a low level spell less fun, interesting, and engaging than "uh, it's a code"?
if in fact the magic of the multiverse did change/evolve over the ages, or that the language was so ancient that magic was unable to recognize it fully/at all, why not explain that after casting the spell I am not able to understand all of the passage but jumbled concepts and vague manings?
This is actually a much more interesting outcome than just not being able to understand the language. I can only imagine the GM didn't think of it. I wouldn't have.
I will now though. Totally stealing this.
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I guess I have Nicer/more mature players:
GM (me) : your comprehend languages does not translate this
player - OOC : you know that this spell should work, by the rules ?
me : yes I do
player - IC : wow, we've found something really interesting we have to investigate on !
If I was never allowed to make some things out of the rules, it'd be boring, no ?
(and btw : stop the "lazy/stupid" GM thing. it's not nice and being a GM is not easy. making mistakes does not make you stupid...)
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As others have pointed out there are two probable reasons for the GM’s reaction:
1. The text is inconsequential and he hadn’t thought what it would say and was caught by surprise
2. The text gives away the plot and he didn’t want to ruin the adventure.
In either case it is probably worth talking to your GM out of character in a conciliatory manner. If it was the former then you can move on, the text says “Welcome to our City”. If it was the latter then you have an opportunity to help your GM make your campaign better. Your GM may have spent a reasonable amount of time developing a lost culture and hidden a breadcrumb of clues that you reveal throughout the adventure. Unfortunately, many of these styles of campaign fall down through missed clues. You could direct him to this excellent article about the rule of three and from there he could review his campaign and insert more clue opportunities.
He may also be absolutely accurate in his statement that you did not understand the text. I am reminded of an episode of Star Trek:TNG where Picard is on a planet with the captain of another alien ship and a hostile lifeform. The alien captain’s language is a series of metaphors and Picard struggles to understand what is being said. The text could have read something like Adam and Eve eating an apple. To us that could mean gaining forbidden knowledge as we understand the context but to someone who has never heard the Christian origin story it has absolutely no context or meaning. Approached in the right manner, your GM may realise he missed an opportunity to give you a clue and could retroactively provide you with a cryptic metaphor, give you a bonus on a future clue check or give you a hint as your character makes a connection to the gibberish text he has previously read.
In any event it is in your group’s best interests that this does not become an issue that stops the game from being fun for all involved.
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Another hypothesis that I haven't quite seen mentioned: GM rudely surprised by an ability has a knee-jerk reaction.
This isn't uncommon in PF. Some things that are hard in typical fantasy books or movies can be done with absolute reliability in PF, and rubs people the wrong way. If they see it coming it's one thing, but if they suddenly run into it they can react angrily.
- The GM has an awesome desert adventure planned in a world where politics is centered on oases of drinkable water. The players proceed to spam Create Water.
- Foraging was supposed to be one of the challenges of the wilderness adventure. The PCs cast Create Food.
- The GM wrote a dungeon full of magic traps and illusions. The players proceed to spam Detect Magic.
- Ancient runes that require research and lots of effort to decode are a staple of fantasy. The players proceed to use Comprehend Languages. Or took that ancient language with Linguistics with the GM's consent, except later on he comes up with all kinds of reasons why that doesn't work anyway.
The frustration of the players when shut down makes sense. First the GM says one thing ("we use the normal rules") and then contradicts himself ("except when I don't want you to use the obvious solution").
Still, I can understand the frustration of the GM. PF has some low-level abilities that have far-reaching implications for what kind of adventures you can plausibly run. He should have handled it more gracefully, like stating from the outset of the campaign that Comprehend Languages only works on living, not ancient dead languages. However, you can't always foresee these things.
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I think Lorila's proposal is also elegant. As a historian myself, I can attest that just being able to translate a text is just the beginning; understanding it is a whole other thing.
Another hypothesis that I haven't quite seen mentioned: GM rudely surprised by an ability has a knee-jerk reaction.
I think this was one of the first ideas thrown out. I, as someone who has GMed many games for the better part of two decades sometimes may want to throw something in the game that defies normal rules. Instead of getting whiny about it, perhaps the reaction should be more along the lines of "Wow. So this is gonna take more than a low level spell to solve. Perhaps we should work to uncover the meaning behind this. Also, perhaps it was just gibberish to begin with? I once played a character that would speak meaningless gibberish sometimes. Another player cast Tongues and then got angry when I said he still did not understand me. I the explained OOC and he got a good laugh out of it. Perhaps let's not assume the GM was incompetent or rude and think maybe the player is just upset he couldn't bypass every game mechanic/plot element with weak magic spells. As we have only the word on one person involved(no other players or the GM has piped in) we should not be so quick to judge. To the OP: Have to asked the GM about this in an adult manner?