TheMonkeyFish's page

Hey'all, sorry if I am asking something that is obvious or common knowledge, but I can't seem to find any sources for this. I was working on some builds for fun using PFS as a baseline standard, but I forgot what the average wealth was per level?

I remember that the average PFS Wealth/Level was slightly higher than the Rulebook suggestions (I think 1000gp for 2, 3000 gp for 3, 6000 for 4, ect), but I don't remember the average numbers for each level.

Because these "Fun Builds" are using PFS as a standardized model, I was hoping someone might be able to provide an average PFS Wealth per Level? Or, if not, perhaps the Average Wealth Reward per Adventure so I could calculate using that?

Also, this is specifically for PF1e Society Play... While I don't have any groups that I currently play with after it's abandonment in my area, I still like using PFS Rules and Guidelines when creating characters.

Hey'all, sorry if I am asking something that is obvious or common knowledge, but I can't seem to find any sources for this. I was working on some builds for fun using PFS as a baseline standard, but I forgot what the average wealth was per level?

I remember that the average PFS Wealth/Level was slightly higher than the Rulebook suggestions (I think 1000gp for 2, 3000 gp for 3, 6000 for 4, ect), but I don't remember the average numbers for each level.

Because these "Fun Builds" are using PFS as a standardized model, I was hoping someone might be able to provide an average PFS Wealth per Level? Or, if not, perhaps the Average Wealth Reward per Adventure so I could calculate using that?

Also, this is specifically for PF1e Society Play... While I don't have any groups that I currently play with after it's abandonment in my area, I still like using PFS Rules and Guidelines when creating characters.

Yeah, I think there are too many negatives from Racial Trait selection for Orc Atavism to be worth it unless you're extremely feat-starved. Ferocious Resolve is already good enough, and the PFS Legal Ferocity Feats aren't that bad. But if you don't mind giving up a lot of the Half-Orcs bread and butter and don't mind dumping a Mental Stat (most likely Charisma), it's a pretty good option.

I'm definitely interested in making a Deathless Feat Tree character for PFS if I'm ever able to find a 1st edition table again.

My only experience with playing this type of build was with Orc Atavism though... He had 20 Str / 14 Dex / 16 Con..... (*cough* 7 Int / 7 Wis / 5 Cha *cough*). He was... Interesting to play. XD

(Roleplayed him as "too stupid for magic" with Bear's Balance to auto rage instead of becoming feared, and gaining Superstition as a Rage Power <this almost costed him his life btw>. TLDR; Natural Weapon Barbarians are fun, dying because you can't get healed because you're unconscious and raging so you don't die by Barbarian Rage Death isn't...)

Unfortunately; I am unable to edit the original post for some reason (There doesn't appear to be an edit button anymore), but you do bring up some interesting points Mysterious Stranger.

My original post, regarding the Deathless Initiate feats "only requiring 2 feats to come online," I was referring to the Staggered condition while under the effects of Diehard. Deathless Initiate requires 3 feats to become unstaggered, and Deathless Master requires 4 to no longer take damage while acting under 0 HP.

Unfortunately, Ferocious Action isn't PFS Legal (which is why it went under my radar during the searches). However, two other feats also work but with their own limitations: Unyielding Ferocity requires 19 Constitution to take but gives the ability to use Full-Round Attacks, and Animal Ferocity requires +3 BAB but causes a -5 Penalty on all your attacks. Ferocious Action is the best feat though, especially for Ragers, since it removes Staggered rather than just allowing Full-Action Attacks.

Ferocious Resolve does prevent you from taking any Racial Traits that would remove Half-Orc Ferocity - as that is required for the feat. But you are correct that it doesn't cost anything else.

Let me revise the chart with what we have so far:

Orc Atacism
Pros: No Feat requirements; Unlocks "Orc Ferocity" Feats
Cons: Extremely Limited Racial Trait flexibility (Only Darkvision can be changed); removes Human from Orc Blood Trait; take a -2 to Int, Wis, or Cha; +2 bonus is limited to Str ONLY; Best Ferocity Option isn't PFS Legal

Ferocious Resolve
Pros: Only 1 Feat requirement; Unlocks "Orc Ferocity" Feats; More Racial Trait flexibility; +2 Intimidate while at "Death's Door"
Cons: Limited Racial Trait flexibility (Cannot substitute Half-Orc Ferocity); Best Ferocity Option isn't PFS Legal

Diehard
Pros: Unlocks "Diehard" Required feats; Full flexibility with Racial Traits; +2 Damage while at "Death's Door"
Cons Requires 2 Feats or Undying Fighter Level Dip; Deathless Feat BAB requirements (+6 for Initiate, +9 for Master)

So... which one to pick? All of them fight to the death. Each have their own pros and cons.

Orc Atavism:
Pros: No Feat
Cons: Replaces everything but Darkvision; -2 to Int, Wis, or Cha; Bonus restricted to +2 Str; Staggered

Ferocious Resolve:
Pros: Only 1 feat; Only requires Half-Orc Ferocity Trait
Cons: Staggered; can't replace Half-Orc Ferocity Trait

Deathless Initiate
Pros: No traits or restrictions; Can Replace Half Orc Ferocity; Not Staggard; eventually takes no damage to act (Deathless Master); Extra Damage while at Deaths Door
Cons: Requires 2 feats to come online, 4 for maximum benefit

---

Deathless Initiate can also take a level dip into Unbreakable Fighter, reducing the number of required Feats required to take.

What do you all think?

TheMonkeyFish wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

Isnt there a PFS specific rule about sacred huntmaster with the animal domain?

I thought they get 2 stat points instead of the double companion shenanigans

That's Kingmaker, PFS just limited HD to CL+1 (Druid Level 16 at level 12, vs Druid Level 21 without the limit).

theres something PFS too i think.I might be thinking of the divine hunter hunter archetype, which is similar to the sacred huntmaster tho

Oh, that? Nah, that's not PFS exclusive. That is a specific errata to the Divine Hunter archetype for Hunters. I could see some tables ruling that the errata affects Animal Domain and not Divine Hunter, but RAW only the Divine Hunter gets stat points for their animal companion like that.

I am tempted to try and squeeze 3 levels into hunter to min-max my Strength Score for them now... Lol

Isnt there a PFS specific rule about sacred huntmaster with the animal domain?

I thought they get 2 stat points instead of the double companion shenanigans

That's Kingmaker, PFS just limited HD to CL+1 (Druid Level 16 at level 12, vs Druid Level 21 without the limit).

Sorry, I think their was a misunderstanding. I was wondering what classes could reach Druid Level 16 by level 12 (HD 13, which is CL+1 at that level).

Fighter 1 Ranger X (or similar pet scaling class) w/ Animal Ally gets Druid Level 17 at level 12.

Animal Domain Sacred Huntsmaster gets Druid Level and Nature/Lunar Oracle can both reach Druid Level 21, but PFS rules limit that to Druid Level 16 because of the HD Cap.

I'm wondering what other combinations there are that would work.

Hey Y'all, I have been extremely busy at work (working at a warehouse during Black Friday and Cyber Monday). Still, I've recently had something gnawing at the back of my mind during my times off—specifically Animal Companions and the HD+1 clause that the Pathfinder Society implemented.

For those that don't know this clause, they are specifically preventing the ability to have an HD18+ Animal Companion at Level 12 through shenanigans. At least in Pathfinder Society play, the limit to an Animal Companion's Hit Dice is Character Level +1. So instead of having a Druid Level 20 at level 12, you're restricted to Druid Level 16 (HD 13) for your Animal Companion.

This ruling was created because of a pre-nerfed Assamar/Elf racial favorite class bonus for Oracle which gave +1/2 Level for a Mystery's Level (now +1/6ths level), but has since been reiterated for the Sacred Huntsman Animal Domain Inquisitor.

This led me to ponder and brainstorm what potential Class/Archetype combinations as well as Feat/Racial options would lead to the Maximum (Druid Level 16/HD 13) Animal Companion in PFS Play. So far, I've been able to come up with the following:

1 - Fighter 1 + Ranger X (or similarly scaling Animal Companion Class) + Animal Ally
2 - Oracle with the Nature's Bonded Mount Revelation or Lunar's Primal Companion + Animal Ally
3 - Sacred Huntsmaster with the [url="https://www.aonprd.com/DomainDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animal"]Animal Domain[URL].

Fighter/Ranger doesn't get an animal companion until Level 4 (Fighter 1/Ranger 3) because of Animal Ally. After that, they get 2 Druid Levels per Character Level, just barely hitting the HD+1 mark by level 12, at the end of Society Gameplay. Meanwhile, Oracle can use restraining Shinanigans to have an animal companion theoretically at Level 1 and start gaining double character levels starting 5 and above. Animal Domain Sacred Huntsmasters don't need any additional Shinanigans to get twice their character level as their druid level past level 4.

Currently, these are the only ones that I've been able to find, and I feel like I'm overlooking a lot of potential Animal Companion Munchkin options for this specific ruling.

Do you guys know of any combinations that would provide a CL+1 HD Animal Companion by level 12?

@wraithstrike I think there is a misunderstanding, since I'm not DMing and don't have players. I'm asking for Society purposes, since Society doesn't allow individual rulings and requires uniformity. Hence asking for a RAW ruling or and Errata or FAQ involving this question.

Regarding the Champion Automaton; I've revisited the book and looked up the information on two separate wikis (Archive of Nethys and d20pfsrd), and while I was wrong about the number of attacks, I can confirm that it does have one Slam attack listed on it's list of Natural Attacks.

Based on the wordings for Arcane Pincer ("While holding a creature in a pincer, the champion automaton loses access to that pincer attack and gains an additional slam attack") the fact that it says an addition implies that it already had a slam attack to begin with.

That and the fact it does have a slam attack listed in it's melee attack list (2 arcane pincers +18 (2d6+12 plus grab), slam +18 (1d8+6)), so if it had someone grabbed, it would be 1 Arcane Pincer and 2 Slam attacks, and so on.

So I can see it working out one of three separate ways: (A) Slam Attacks are like Unarmed Strikes and can be used with any part of the body. (B) Slam attacks use the Arm while Claws/Pincers/Ect use the Hand and are separate 'limbs'. (C) Natural Attacks can stack on the same limb as long as they're different natural attacks and don't interrupt each other.

I'm more inclined towards C because there is also Gore/Bite in the argument and it's widely considered okay for Gore and Bite to be used together despite both being on the head.

Ngl; I read the title and thought this was going to be a min-max for carrying capacity. Lmao

What monsters are using "Claw + Slam / Pincer + Slam" from the exactl same "hand"?

edit:Sadly they are not doing anymore FAQ's. They didn't even keep up with FAQ's when PF1 was the only system they had to support. I appreciate what they did do, but I still feel like they dropped the ball on some of the easier questions.

I didn't go far into in-depth searching, just enough to find one example for Claw/Slam and Pincer/Slam. Nachzehrer (PAP #119) has both a Claw attack and a Slam attack, which as listed on the generally accepted chart would both be an arm attack.

As for the Pincer/Claw attack, first one I was able to find was Champion Automaton (PCS: Construct Handbook) - which has both x2 Pincer attacks and x2 Slam attacks. It also has the wording which if it grabs with a Pincer, it turns into 'another' slam attack, so there isn't confusing that it has both of them. And unless I'm missing something, I only see two arms.

It might be the case that they're ruling hands and arms as separate for natural attacks just like how they're ruling mouth and horns as separate (albeit as previously stated, some Gore attacks use the mouth not the horn).

@Senko: Just read the Ambidexterity Feat from 3.0/3.5 and the only ruling that it applies to in Pathfinder is Two-Weapon Fighting - which you can remedy by taking the combat feat of the same name. That being said, I don't think there is anything to further reduce TWF penalties like you could in 3.0.

Unless I'm mistaken and someone else can provide a feat or trick that would reduce two weapon fighting penalties that stack with the two weapon fighting feat. xD

The problem that I am currently having with the Manufactured + Natural Attacks rules as stated in the Attack Action rules is that it specifically calls out the Manufactured Weapon being used rather than just referencing different Natural Attacks using the same limb. (i.e.: "For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.")

This also brings up the issue that several existing monsters have attacks that conflict with this ruling, such as Gore + Bite both using head, Claw + Slam / Pincer + Slam both using Hand. So it's hard for me to argue with people who use it in my group when there are examples of these monsters that don't fit the ruling.

Probably too late to ask Paizo to make an FAQ on which Natural Attack is attached to which limb and which attacks can/can't be stacked on each other. Especially when the group I play with has practically ran out of replay credits and Paizo is dead set on letting 1e society fizzle out without granting more replays credits. lol

So... just wanted to see if there was any clarification regarding having (different) natural attacks using the same limb? I.e.: Gore and Bite both using the head, Claw/Pincer/Slam all using arms, and Tail Slap/Sting both using tail (Got that last one from an Eidolon threat that never got a complete answer yet).

How exactly are natural attacks of different types ruled when using the same limb? The closest FAQ I could find references the hypothetical of having x2 Bite Attacks rather than a Bite Attack and a Gore attack or a Claw and Slam attack.

Half-Orc--Toothy: Does this alternate racial trait stack with the Razortusk feat (page 168) granting you two bite attacks?

This is one of those areas where we tried to get at the same idea multiple ways. In this case, the answer is no, unless you somehow manage to get an extra mouth. Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each. This also applies to the Animal Fury barbarian rage power (Core Rulebook, page 32).

This clarification is more directed at trying to get multiple Natural Attacks of the same type (i.e.: x2 Bite Attacks) vs having different Natural Attacks on the same limb (i.e.: Slam attack and Claw attack).

Regarding the statement that monsters have both a Gore Attack and a Bite Attack - Nachzehrer have Slam/Claw and Champion Automaton have Pincer/Slam attacks with both only having one set of arms, (albeit I'll admit I can't find any with Claw/Pincer attacks or sting/tail slap), so I'd rule either allowing slams and claws to be used together or denying gore and bite. Honorable Mention to Mutants who can have both Slam and Claw attacks for each arm by RAW but potentially no way to use it as long as we also agree to deny Gore/Bite under the same logic.

I'll probably have to post in Rules for a more direct answer, but the clarification mentioned above was specifically for stacking multiple Bites.

I remember seeing someone asking about an Eidolon Tail Slap/Sting but hadn't seen any update on that yet.

@Tottemas - Ah yeah... I think that mistake was from a previous build that I was going for with Rageblood (Gore/Hoove/Hoove), and forgot to change the attack from Secondary to Primary when I changed it from Hooves to Talons. You are correct, Talons are a Primary Natural Attack not a Secondary Natural Attack.

Honestly accidentally skipped over that with the Shifter, shame though would of been a nice combo. But I can understand the balance of it. I'm guessing Lizardfolk would probably be the best Natural Attack Stacker then - albeit I don't have access to a society sheet for Lizarfolk. Lol

@Trokarr - I know I played with a table that was the opposite, but if you have the rules or errata/clarification text for this, that would be very helpful to provide my DM. I've heard of people saying this but I hadn't been able to find the original source other than what seems like RAI with not being able to use a Natural Attack on the same limb that you're using a Manufactured weapon, but that's it.

On that realm of thinking - if you are going to restrict Slam and Claw attacks from being used together for both being (Arm) attacks, than Gore and Bite would also be restricted from being used together because they're both using the (Head) limb. It's really hard to argue for one while arguing against the other.

Tbh, I never really played a Natural Attack build. I just was thinking "What would benefit from having really high strength while also not minding having a lower BAB".

If we are going by 1 attack per limb, we have 6 natural attacks available if you include a Tail attack from certain items/races.

Gore/Bite (Head)
Slam/Claw/Pincers (Arms) x2
Talon/Hooves (Legs) x2
Tail/Sting (Tail)

Outside of Society, if you can get wings and certain other things, you also have;
Tentacles (unlimited, own body part)
Wings (Wings) x2

Did some fiddling around - unfortunately I have work in the morning but this is what I've got so far for my STR version of this build. Unlike the DEX version, it aims to overwhelm with extremely high amounts of natural attacks. Here is what I've got so far, let me know what y'all think:

A lot of it focuses on wealth overall, honestly if it got to level 13, I'd think about taking the Totem feats over the actual barbarian totems (since using a Swift action to gain Pounce is pretty nuts).

The main reason I went Aerieborn instead of Rageborn is because I didn't know if Pelt of the Beast had a Raptor option (it wasn't listed in the list of benefits). If you can select Aerieborn with the Pelt of the Beasts, then Rageborn is 100% better.

Obviously, you'll need a Society Boon to play a Skinwalker.

So was building a DEX version of this build, and noticed something interesting. If you take the Kineticist class, you gain access to the Esoteric Knight Prestige Class - or you could use a Psychic class. Either one would be pretty good, since you get a form of permanent Martial Flexibility. Not sure if it's worth the overal -1 BAB or taking an effective dead class (since you can't advance any of their class features). Just something I noticed.

@Heather 540: Not sure if PFS uses Fractional Advancement from the additional rules, but it would be nice if they did.

Anyway, this is what I've gotten for the Dex Build:

It isn't 100% complete, but the idea is pumping DEX as much as possible as well as increasing the initiative all the way to the top. At level 1, you're looking at ~20 starting Initiative as well as the ability to store a d20 as Nugai mentioned on his character.

I was hoping to add Investigator into the mix, but I'm already 2 stages behind on BAB as is with the Wizard and Bard dips. The Bard dip works with Fate's Favored, giving me a +2 Luck bonus with everything, and Lingering Performance pretty much tripling the bonus.

The flow of actions is basically, Turn 1 turn on Archeologist's Luck and drink the Mutagen (if it's a big fight). Turn 2 turn on Urban Rage for even more Dexterity stacking. All-in-all, the amount of Dexterity Stacking is pretty insane, haven't yet done the math but between everything it looks like it'll end up being 30?

Ulfen Guard (Prestige Class) is the only way to get Rage Powers, definitely going to be more important for my Strength build (going to focus on Natural Attacks) probably).

What do you guys think? Any feats you'd fill in for the ???'s in the build? Anything you'd do differently? Anyone wanna do the math for me and make things are clear?

Tbh, everything past level 6 was pretty rushed because of Overtime scheduling at work, but I'd much appreciate you'alls opinion on the first build so far. Second build will definitely be using Id's Rager for massive strength buffs.

(Edit) One of the things that I like about this build is it's triple stacking on stats into Grit/Panache. So using the Headband of Mental Prowess and Headband of Mental Superiority would allow you to double dip gaining uses/day for each ability score the headband increases.

@Zza Ni - You pointing these out only makes me want to explore these options even more. Albeit the fighter archetype would be non-required because you don't start sharing combat feats until level 2. That, and unless there was an errata or clarification, House of the Green Mother only works with Familiar Bond and you'd still need Iron Will for Improved Familiar Bond. Unfortunately, due to PFS, the Wasp Familiar is unavailable (unless there is a Boon I'm unaware of).

Regarding the Racial Feats build, it looks rather interesting. I presume you are referring to the Nine-Tailed Scion trait that allows you to replace any bonus feat (combat or otherwise) with a Kitsune Tail Feat? Heavenly Radiance would also be an interesting since you can use your racials as spells instead of relying on the classes.

@Azothath - One of the reasons why I was thinking of this build was how chaotic yet organized you'd have to be to pull it off. I can definitely see this being a "focus on skills" situation, but at the same time I'm certain there are some combinations that work and synergies well together enough to make a level-dip only build.

@Sir Longears - Scribbling that one down on my list of builds that I'm researching for right now. So far, I've gotten an idea for four Extreme Multiclass builds. One for a Strength build, one for a Dex build, one for a Familiar build and one for a Animal Companion build. Will probably flesh them out more and post once I've gotten the ideas all fleshed out.

@Nugal - That actually looks like a really interesting build. The Wizard choice reminds me of a build my friend made that had +20 Initiative at level 1 (Wildfire Heart Ifrit, Max DEX, Divine Wizard, Reactionary, Improved Initiative). Might end up stealing this idea for my DEX Level Dip Build (Wizard Drop out ftw).

I really like that build, it feels so messy but it synergies so perfectly. Tbh when I was first looking at this multiclass challenge, I didn't even bother looking at spellcasting classes other than a few secondary spellcasters. You pointing this out actually is making me consider reevaluating them for their class skills. Lol

So, I was recently reminded of a DnD Streamer and one of their characters that was a "multiclassed into every class" build (Abserd). The character concept had me thinking something similar for PFS, and my ADHD mind decided to build a character to reflect myself - too unfocused to dedicate more than a single level to any class they happen to take.

I'm guessing that most of the Spellcasting Classes are going to be out of the option, since your Caster Level will always be low and you're stuck at Spellcasting Level 1. Albeit there are a few ways to increase your caster level of all your Spellcasting Classes up to CL3 (Half-Elf and a Trait? I forgot the exact combination).

In that same stretch, I'm assuming Familiar Builds aren't going to be that good either - since Familiar Builds require mostly Spellcasting classes. Would be awesome to be proven wrong.

With that being said, my brain is being split between Dex-Abserd and Str-Abserd. On one hand, we have a Fate's Favored Half-Orc (Shifter > Id Bloodrager > Barbarian > ???), on the other hand we have another Fate's Favored but Halfling (Un.Rogue > Bard > Slayer > ???).

I haven't actually gone too in-depths into these builds yet. I was in the middle of fleshing out the strength build, but my power went out and lost everything.

Has anyone had any experience or advice regarding a "Oops, All Multiclass" build?

So, the damage from the slam attacks doesn't increase with your level?

It seems very underwhelming. You don't get iterative attacks with natural attacks.

I think there was a misunderstanding with my original post. I was specifically asking about a Bloodrager Dip and how it'd effect the Shifter class, since I didn't know if Shifter's Alternate Natural Attack Slams counted as Slam attacks for the purpose of effects and feats.

To clarify, a one-level dip would provide a Rage that gives +6 Strength (+4 Moral, +2 Untyped), +4 Constitution, +2 Will, -2 Dex, and -3 Armor (-2 Moral, -1 Dexterity).

I thought that the Shifter's Defensive Instinct would help counteract the -3 Armor while Raging. I could also stack the Steelrager archetype to allow Heavy Armor Proficiency and use Stoneplate/Dragonhide Plate, while still being allowed to keep 1/2 of the Defensive Instinct bonus.

If I were to go with an archetype that removed S&#$ers Claws or Shifter's Fury, then I could still pick up the Beaststrike Club.

On that note, for rules that say "You can use one use of [X] for effect", if the use of [X] has "hours per day, 1 hour at a time" - would that mean you have to use 1 hour of that ability to activate the effect?

i.e.: "you can expend one use of wildshape to increase the weapon's damage by one step" vs "Can Wildshape a number of hours each day. Does not need to be consecutive but must be spent in 1 hour increments."

I grok do u wrote:

OP probably meant Anger Focus

Thanks.

I still can't see the problem.

ID Bloodrager wrote:

When the id rager enters a bloodrage, he gains additional powers as if he were a phantom with the emotional focus he selected as his atavistic focus.

...
and treats his bloodrager level as both his spiritualist level and his phantom Hit Dice when determining abilities and save DCs.

One of the Phantom abilities is "Slam Damage: Phantoms have two slam natural weapon attacks." so I don't see why he needs to get the slam damage through different means. The character already has it when bloodraging, and when not bloodraging he doesn't benefit from Anger focus.

PFS Rules/Rules Clarification stated that you only gain the Emotional Focus abilities, not the base abilities (i.e.: No slam attacks).

But yes, I did mean the Anger focus. XD
Tbh, was looking at Beaststrike Club at first (Large Club for a 2d6 Slam club), but then started going down the rabbit hole and somehow got to Shifter. Lmao

Was going down a pretty deep rabbit hole for this one (heh, pun) but think I've finally settled down on how to get this going. Originally started out looking at Id Rager and asking myself "how can I get Slam Attacks", and was looking hard at Oozemorph until I realized that Alternate Natural Attacks were not only an option - but legal in PFS.

However, there is one string of text that has me on the fence if this works or not. "These alternate natural attacks modify only the damage type of the shifter’s natural attacks and otherwise function exactly as the shifter claws class feature."

My question is, if I were to use the Alternate Natural Attacks to gain Slam attacks instead of Claw attacks, would they benefit from the Id Ragers Phantasm Powers? (i.e.: Hatred dealing one size increase).

@Sir Longears - I think, after reading more from this thread, that Feral Combat Training is more so for feats that specifically call out using an Unarmed Strike in their description, since there is a difference regarding Unarmed Attack and Unarmed Strikes.

For example, Adder Strike and School Strike each specify "Unarmed Strike" in their description, while Stunning Fist and Stupidying Strike use "Unarmed Attack" (apparently there is a ruling where Touch Spells using Stunning Fist targets AC not Touch AC).

So in the case of Feral Combat Training, it'd let them use their Natural Attacks for Adder Strike and School Strike, but wouldn't change that they already qualified to be used for feats like Stunning Fist and Stupifying Strike. I'm assuming Unarmed Trip just means you aren't using a manufactured weapon, like an Unarmed Attack.

Also I like the mental picture of a Wolf biting someone, throwing them to the ground, and pinning them there.

@Sir Longears: Ah, thanks for clarifying. All the places I saw online said th AoO before the target falls prone so I thought the movement would be after the AoO. Thank you for clarifying.

@zza nl: I didn't catch that... kind of wish I had three feats to spare now. Feral Combat Training would fix this, but it requires Weapon Focus Bite and Improved Unarmed Strike (No Dirty Fighting cheating sadly).

Thanks for pointing that out. It's unfortunate, would have been cool. Lol

(Edit) Sorry, forgot this part. To answer Sir Longears, Pathbuilder is an app to build Pathfiner 1e characters. Lots of minor bugs like this one though unfortunately. Pathbuilder 2e is lots better in terms of functionality.

I apologize if this question has been asked before or if I am asking an obvious question, but I hadn't found any direct answers. It seemed like the only things I found were assumptions that AoO could could be taken during your ongoing turn and an Advice thread asking HOW a Wolf could get Greater Trip (Dirty Fighting).

Anyway, this is all speculative for my Wolf Companion (Nature Oracle so he has 6 Int). I've given them the Dirty Fighting Feat and also the Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Greater Trip, Ki Throw. and Binding Throw Feats.

My two questions are: Are there any rules that support the use of AoO during your own turn?

And assuming that AoO can be taken on your turn, is this correct?

Bite Succeeds > Trip Succeeds > AoO from Trip > Ki Throw Movement > Binding Throw Grapple?

(EDIT) Apparently Pathbuilder has a bug that Dirty Fighting doesn't qualify for Improved Unarmed Strike for Ki Throw and other feats, despite having an Improved Combat Maneuver feat in its prerequisites.

Also, for clarification this is a Druid Level 16/HD 13 pet fo a Level 12 character min-maxing their animal companion.

Thanks guys! I was having such a hard time finding out what it was and couldn't think of anywhere else to ask. You all helped me so much with your answers and descriptions of the old event.

I am curious about the ending LunarVale mentioned, all the more reason to see if this playtest is possible to purchase for myself.

Thanks again for the help ^-^

I apologize if this is something my brain made up on it's own, but I've absolutely convinced myself that this playtest existed in ye'olden days.

Does anyone remember any of the Playtest that had something along the lines of the telling the GM "We are testing the death and dying mechanics and plan to push it to the limit. Don't tell your players that we are trying to kill them to make testing more realistic. Your players WILL die."

The session was basically just multiple waves of combat of increasingly ludicrous difficulty, only to have a "and every dies" at the end if they somehow do survive?

Can anyone confirm what this Playtest Session name was?

(Edit) I never played it officially, hence why I can't just find it on my Organized Play or Library, but I remember discussing it with my former PFS Group before situations caused me to leave the group.

Thanks Balafon! I hadn't even thought or considered retraining my Level 1 Revelation. For some reason, my brain had the idea that retraining anything before 4th level would disqualify the 4th level feat. But considering it'd cost 10 PP instead of 5 PP, it only seems fair.

Though I think you are misreading the clarifications or had they changed them? The rules I was reading stated that the HD was capped, not Druid Level, so a level 11 character would have a Level 15th Druid Level (HD 12 Animal Companion). Still a far cry from Level 19/HD 15, but a lot less limiting than only Druid Level 12/HD 10.

If the HD Cap was changed to Druid Level, that definitely would put a damper on investing a lot into this build. Can anyone confirm this?

I could always take a dip into one of the Pact Classes and have two animal companion at DL 10/9 and HD 9/8 respectively (is what I would say if the Pact Lord or Pactmaster were PFS legal, lmao).

So it looks like the earliest Companion Level is 3 and the earliest Animal Ally+Bonded Mount level is 4. Thanks again for helping me confirm!

I think there was a misunderstanding regarding this post. I was referring to ruling regarding Retraining and the fastest/least problematic way of obtaining Animal Ally's bonus condition at the earliest possible level.

Unfortunately, Animal Ally doesn't allow Bear so I would still be restricted on my Animal Companion to Wolf (but would allow me to play Human or Half Orc, since they also give +2s to their animal companion). Although Bonded Mount gives my wolf a free 6 Int instead of the starting 2 Int.

The build concept was going to use Friend of Animals to give them saving throw bonuses. I don't want to have flashbacks of Yogi Bear dying because they failed a Will Save and got Paralyzed.

The build itself will most likely be a Lunar Oracle Spirit Guide with a Nature Spirit.

Regarding the question on hand, with a single retrain, is level 5 the lowest possible level to get both Animal Ally and Primal Companion/Bonded Mount?

Did some thinking and just want to confirm my logic is correct:

Level 3 > Take Extra Revolation

Level 4 > Retrain Extra Evolation for Animal Ally

Level 5 > Take Extra Revolation

So level 5 would be the lowest level?

Was going through some of my older builds, and wanted to revisit an Animal Companion build I had a while back. The idea was using Animal Ally and Bonded Mount Revelation to stack druid levels in PFP (Originally used a Nature Domain Cleric with a 1 level dip into Nature Oracle for Cha to Saves).

The Character was an Emerald Spire character (unfortunately we never got to finish because the group I played with entirely lost interest in anything 1e as soon as 2e was released...). The basic idea was that we needed a support caster and a front line tank/defender. Instead of the assumed Oradin, I made a Cleric focused on Channel Energy with the Animal and Plant domain, with 90% of my build focused towards the Bear and the other 10% focused on healing/buffing.

Revisiting the idea, I want to make the companion THE focus of the build, so changing it to Wolf and stacking Oracle levels with Bonded Mount and Animal Ally (playing Halfling with Caretaker).

Theoretically speaking, what is the earliest level via retraining that I could take both while having an Animal Companion for the longest time possible in the players career?

(Edit) This is for PFS so I know about the "HD Cap = Player Level +1" homebrew rule but I don't know the nitty gritty of retraining.

Also, any advice for keeping the Bear instead of Wolf with character level stacking that doesn't involve Sacred Hunter + Animal Domain?

*casts Raise Thread spell*

For those who haven't already found the answer to the original question: the Seducer archetype for the Witch class is found in PC: Legacy of the First World. It alters the L 1 hex and gives up the L 6 + 8 hexes; in return, the Witch uses the Charisma stat for all things Witch-related and gains a few other abilities.

(I was actually searching for something else when I came across this thread and thought that the answer should be supplied for any future searchers.)

Since this thread has already been Necro Posted, I'll go ahead and add my 2¢ to this topic.

Optional to the Seducer Witch Archetype, you can also use the (unofficial) Stigmatized Witch from Wrath of the Righteous. I was able to convince one of my previous DMs to use this Archetype instead of the Seducer Archetype to play a CHA Witch because it avoided the sexy-time orgy theme that the Seducer Witch Archetype has.

The Stigmatized Witch replaces their Patron and Patron Spells for an Oracle Curse (you don't count as an Oracle so your curse only advances once every 2 levels instead of every level). It also turns their Spellcasting to CHA instead of INT, and turns their Hex saves to CHA instead of INT.

It was pretty fun making a Stigmatized Witch/Feyspeaker Druid Mystic Theurge.

(Edit) This is technically unofficial since its only used in the Pathfinder Wraith of the Righteous video game, but I think you'd have a harder to convince your DM to play a sexy-time orgy archetype than letting you play an archetype from a videogame...

Claxon wrote:

I'm going to suggest something that mechanically wont get you anywhere near what you're asking for, but in PF2 there's nothing that will get you near what you're asking for. It's just a difference between editions that are incredibly mechanically different.

I'm going to suggest a spirit instinct barbarian with the marshall dedication is going to be thematically close, but mechanically very different.

Hah. Beat me to it by a few minutes. That is my recommendation as well. It captures a lot of the flavor of the character itself, and a good portion of the mechanics.

It doesn't give the same party-wide buffs, but that is because those types of party-wide buffs aren't possible in PF2.

Haha, sorry for the misunderstanding regarding my original post. Me describing the mechanics from PF1e was me just reminiscing on what it could do rather than what I am looking to do in PF2e.

I suppose this is asking for a lot, but mechanically would it be possible to share the Spirits Instinct with my allies, as I tend to not be the one attacking while I played the fiddle in the background?

A lot of the Bard feats lack Concentration, so perhaps a Bard with the Barbarian Archetype and the Instinct Feat at level 6 would fit the flavor?

(EDIT) Ah... Looks like it's a level 20 Barbarian Feat to share instincts with another ally. But Shared Rage looks promising. It's not what I was hoping for, but better than nothing. XD

Sorry for asking a potentially dumb question, but I was wondering if there had been any translations created yet for the Spirit Totem Skald build from PF1e?

Used to love this build with the Magical Warrior Archetype, giving the whole team a +1 enchantment to one of their weapons AND giving them little spirits to surround them to gain extra attacks for melee characters and giving 20% miss chance to ranged and non-adjacent melee attacks for ranged characters.

Honestly, just the idea of a wisp-fiddler has peaked my interest but I don't think I've seen anything in Pathfinder 2e to help replicate that.

I apologize again for asking a potentially dumb question, just having a tough time translating some of my favorite characters from 1e into 2e.

My only Half Orc character was a Orc/Solar bloodline Sorcerer from PF1. He was built as a Munchkin with Flavor (Father was an Orc Chieftain and follower of Sezelrian. Mother was a human cleric of Saranrae). Basically mother went to orc tribe for diplomatic relations and ended up in arelationship with the chief. After going back to the temple, she kept the child but none from the temple really welcomed him, more just accepted him.

He was basically min-maxed for Magic Trick: Fireball.

Fireball + Trick Cluster Bomb + Metamagic Widen + Trick Condenced Fire all + Orc/Solar Bloodlines + Half Orc FCB = 5d6+12+1/2 Sorcerer Levels Fire Damage in a 5ft Radius per 2 Sorcerer Levels (with the center being no more than 60ft from each blast).

He was a fun character but I haven't gotten to that point where my Fireball does that much damage yet.

If I converted him to PF2, he'd most likely be a Fire Oracle.

I know it would waste a spell slot but is there a workaround as-is in game to just cast enlarge on your familiar...?

By RAW, there are several specific rules that prevent using Familiars in combat that can't be resolved by just casting Enlarge Person.

Namely the inability to make Strikes is one of the biggest RAW restrictions for a combat focused familiar.

JiCi wrote:

Claxon wrote:

JiCi wrote:

TheMonkeyFish wrote:

I'd love them to make Mauler familiars a thing in PF2e. lol

Only if they make it so your familiar grows to Large with the Mount trait...

I sort of disagree, I'd like that part to be optional.

I have a sprite with a corgi mount that I'd like to remain small, but that I'd also like to have HP of an animal companion.

The issue is that back in P1E, the Mauler grew to Medium, making it unrideable by Medium characters using normal means. If you were a Small character, this was a huge bonus.

If a P2E Mauler comes out, I wish that there's a way to grow it to Large, to make it rideable by Medium characters, which makes up for 75% of parties.

Well, I imagine the creature would basically be like having a familiar and an animal companion, and one transforms into the other, but narratively it's the same creature.

maybe with some higher level feats that would let you use familiar abilities while in animal companion form.

Tbh,I didn't expect a half-joke suggestion to get this much attention. If I wasneing serious though, maybe they could either make it an Improved Familiar Option or a Class Option?

Something along the lines of "Choose a core Animal Companion Option. <1>: Tranform the Familiar into a larger version of itself or return it to it's original size. While transformed, it becomes an Animal Companion instead of a Familiar, using the selected Animal Companions stats while maintaining it's base appearance and any Familiar Abilities."

I think it'd make more sense as a Feat, but making it an Improved Familiar Option would help prevent any weird rulings stacking it with other improved Familiar Options.

@Hilary Moon Murphy: Yeah, I've already got the build all planned out for Pathfinder Society, albeit less story driven and more mechanically focused than my dream version. I'd also have to pick a non Amnesia background for the build. (The Society character isn't going to be a Pharasma Champion since mechanically he needs to be Lawful Good, lol). Just need 50 more points to build him.

Unfortunately I also have another super expensive character I want to buy... (Kitsune Reflection Heritage Mirror Thaumaturge). So when the time comes, I'll have to choose which one I want to play more...

Regarding the Dream story itself, I definitely think that'd make a better ending for than just being resurrected. Perhaps when he becomes a Duskwalker reborn, his Eidolon also changes to a Psychopomp? Since originally his own soul was his Eidolon, being reborn would essensially give him a vacancy that could be filled by his new "patrol officer". Lol

@Bein Brennil: It's a common trope for intelligent undead to worship a death God/dess. Just writing the base summary of my dream, confirming if it was plausable before committing to a small story. I'd hate to waste time writing something only to learn it couldn't work canonically.

I do admit, Jaethal is becoming the new Drizt. Lol

(Edit) Inb4 a partition to make Pharasma pity unwilling undeath instead of be disgusted by it, and allow intelligent undead followers that follow fate as long as they don't seek to make their undeath a permanent thing? Lmao xD

I'd love them to make Mauler familiars a thing in PF2e. lol

@Sibelius Eos Owm: Nah, this was just a dream. No campaign sadly. I'm tempted to do some writing with this ideas as a pet project, hence my asking if my dream would be plausible with the disposition of Pharasma. Though I do have a character build for this character in case anyone does want to use them. I could definitely see them being a Duskwalker rather than restored into a human.

@Perpdepog: I'd argue that Duskwalker's "Neither your body nor your spirit can ever become undead" would conflict with a Skeleton <body> Summoner with his own Soul <spirit> as his Eidolon.

(Edit = TL:DR - Would Pharasma reward a Skeleton worshiper with Resurrection as a reward for completing a great task and willingly surrendering his undeath after completing his purpose?)

So... This is going to sound weird, but I've recently had dreams involving one of my character concepts that has left me with several questions. Specifically regarding the lore of Pharasma and unwilling undead in the Pathfinder setting. While I understand that Pharasma detests undead using their condition to prolong their life, and has what is best described as disgusted pity towards undead for existing if they're unwilling, would that prevent her from rewarding action done by an individual undead that aided in bringing back the balance of life and death?

Long story short, my dreams are almost never about myself and are always story-like in nature. As if someone were reading me a book or watching a TV show, rather than what normal dreams are like. This dream was focused on a Skeleton "Paladin" (Summoner Archetype Paladin that summons his soul to fight with him). He lost almost all his memories from his mortal life with hazy recollections.

Ultimately, he hates his undead affliction and is disgusted by himself. But something in the back of his mind is preventing him from 'just ending it'. Ultimately he worships Pharasma, but he knows there is something he has to do before judgement. At the end of his journey, he learns that he was tasked with fighting an undead lich that wished to curse the world with undeath to prevent any souls from passing on in a perpetual state of stagnation. The party was eventually able to defeat the BBEG and call upon the goddess of death for judgement.

During the last moments of the dream, there was a conversation between the goddess and the skeleton paladin. She admitted that, while she was disgusted by his affliction it didn't change that he fulfilled his duties in her name and praised him for his convictions. She then conjured a well of positive energy and instructed him to walk into it. She told him "Now that your task binding you to your undeath has been completed, you have no reason to continue living as you are now."

He paused for a moment to say his goodbyes to his companions before walking into the well of positive energy. He didn't feel pain, didn't feel destruction, he only felt warmth wash over him as his undeath ended.

But instead of dying, his soul and body were merged back together and flesh regenerated. The light from the positive energy faded away and he stood, fully revived and no longer undead. He questioned the goddess way and for what purpose, and she admitted that this was his reward for completing his duties and willingness to surrender his undeath without resistance. "What is the lifetime of a mortal but a blink of an eye for a god? Live your second chance at life to it's fullest, for there will not be a third." She warned him before leaving.

My question is: Is this something Pharasma would actually do for an Undead who prevented a scourge of undeath from occurring across the world and willingly surrendering his undeath at the end of the journey?

I was recently talking with someone about Pathfinder Society and they were curious when I mentioned that some Adventure Paths were Society Sanctioned. I know specifically that Emerald Spire (PF1e) is Society Sanctioned, because I played an Animal/Plant Domain Cleric that was both the parties support and strength based character.

Anyway, they were asking more about information regarding this. While I'm pretty sure Kingmaker, Wrath of the Righteous, and Whispering Tyrant were all Society Sanctioned, I'm not 100% sure and I am not certain how they were ran even if they were.

Could you guys confirm which APs are Society Sanctioned for PF1e and PF2e and how they are run differently from normal society games?

Wanted to point out that Wild Heritage is a featthat acts like Skill Focus for Eldritch Heritage, but gives an option for Wild Blooded choices for your Eldritch Heritage.

It'll cost you three feats (Wild Heritage, Eldritch Heritage, and the +4 level feat) but it's one way to get a Full Level companion w/out taking class options into account.

Honestly, might still consider making a Familiar with a ghost pet, if nothing else but to experience having Kira in my games again. I used to have a character with a pet which was a tribute to my old cat, and when it died in the story I was in (unlucky combat with a Mauler Familiar), I opted to make it a Figmented Sage familiar to represent it being a ghost.

So it would be interesting to have a Ghost familiar, even if we don't have Maulers in PF2e.

So... not sure how I missed this while reading the Book Of The Dead rulebook, but I recently saw the "Old Friend" familiar option and (besides having a mini emotional breakdown after reading it) had a few questions I wanted to ask...

As someone who had built an 'Old Friend' in Pathfinder 1st Edition using Figment Familiar, this made me want to build a character focused around this idea. However... I'm not quiet sure how familiars function or what makes them work in 2e, so I wanted to ask a few things:

1) What does it mean "Required Number of Abilities" for specific familiars? From what I'm reading, it sounds like it costs a number of Familiar Abilities? So I'd be down 4 Familiar Options in order to take the Old Friend Specific Familiar? (It has 4 listed next to it).

2) What can incorporeal creatures do to benefit the party? I understand it'll pretty much be a non-combat pet thing outside a few spell casting gimmicks, but I'd hate to invest an extreme amount of resources (~3 Class Feats and <assuming above> 4 Familiar Abilities) for something that is just the equivalence of flavor.

3) What other benefits would Familiars have to the party if I were to choose a Familiar focused character?

I'm going to flag this thread, it's been derailed far enough and I'd rather see it removed than have this continued...

I love how it's the people who are quoting me to "attack" or "defend" the ONE person I WASN'T referring to about in my last post, are the people I was originally referring to... If you think "Filling a thread with anger" is about one post, you might want to re-read the thread and view your own posts and see how much bitter resentment you used in the words chosen.

Just so we're clear, this has nothing to do with keftiu or their post, and this has everything to do with people going on people sending me harassing DMs, posting unrelated political opinions on a thread about skeleton fluff, and all around dog pilling and dog whistling.

(Edit) Re-reading the replies, I'm also specifically exempting Arcaian (in addition to Keftiu as previously stated) from my blanket statement. It appears they're the only ones who even attempted to resolve the issue with as little resentment as possible.

-sigh- I swear... Can't go a single day on the internet without a topic getting completely derailed by something completely unrelated about politics. Remind me again why I even bother with the internet anymore...?

Anyway, thanks for the discussion guys. I don't think I'll play 2e anymore, it's clear that accidentally saying one wrong word in a full paragraph is enough to fill a thread full of anger. Have fun all. <3