The Mystic Theurge is a prestige class I look at well as it as unlike some prestige classes it doesnt take reduced casting level.
Making a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge seemed complicated, in particular because you would need both Intelligence and Wisdom as casting stats. However an alternative that can work better is the Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge. Both the Sorcerer and Oracle use the same casting stat, Charisma.
Drawbacks: Unfortunately the Mystic Theurge cant be used all the way to level 20, so you cannot be a tier 9 caster in both Arcane and Divine magic. It also loses out on class features due to being a prestige class. Divine casting loses one of its nice features, wearing Armor while casting as you wouldnt be able to use your Arcane Spells. Oracle wouldnt get most Mystery or Revelations benefits, Sorcerer bloodlines are weakened too.
Upside: You would have a huge increase in overall spells, versatility, and just spell endurance as everyone else. You could be a tier 8 casting in one area, and tier 6(or 7) in another. Action economy problems can be avoided somewhat as with more spells Metamagic feats like Quicken Spell can be used more often. at Prestige level 10(about 16 overall) you would have the Spell Synthesis feature allowing you to cast 2 spells at once.
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Early build is this. I Think Half-elf would work well because of dual favored classes.
str 11(1) dex 14(5) con 14(5), int 12(2) wis 10(0), cha 15(7)+2
Traits: Reactionary, Magical Knack
Feats: Dazing Spell, Quick spell, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus(conjuration), Augment Summoning, Superior summoning
You can build it upon wizard and cleric, too. In that case you pick one as your main focus and the other class is regarded as an augmentation.
If you do wizard with some clerical stuff, your main stat would be INT and WIS needs only to reach 17 at the end. You would end up as Wizard 7/Cleric 3/MT 10, able to use 9th and 7th level spells respectively. By taking the trait which adds to CL to one class, your CL as wizard would be 19, too.
With the spontaneous version you would end up as Oracle 4/Sorcerer 6/MT10 and have access to 7th/8th level spells respectively.
(Exchange classes as desired.)
The MT is generally viewed as a bad option, because you lose a lot of class features or they become irrelevant without the class levels to boost them. You even lose out on casting power. The price for the higher versatility is very steep, and in the end not really worth it IMO.
Looking at your early build, drop dazing and quicken for later. Given your access to higher spell slots, both are a high-end deal for you given they are +3 and +4 (you will be level 14 when you get a 5th level slot). Or drop them altogether and aim for a rod. Given your plethora of lower level slots, you can make a lot out of cheaper meta feats.
With reduced CL, Spell Penetration is a good idea too, if you plan on casting offensively rather than just summoning and buffing.
Starting at high level with a sorcerer/oracle/mystic theurge can theoretically work out - but starting from level 1 and working your way up doing it can be rough. You need four levels of sorcerer and four levels of oracle to qualify, meaning you can take your first level of the prestige class at level 9. At that point, your wizard and cleric buddies are casting fifth level spells, your sorcerer and oracle buddies are casting fourth level spells with three bloodline powers or revelations...and you can't even cast haste or prayer yet.
If your fellow players are ok with that delay in casting ability and your GM is ready to adjust for it (or if you're starting at a high level) it is a nice way to make the theurge a little more single-ability-dependent. But it's a tough way to go, especially if you're doing it because you're the only caster in a party. (If you do decide to go that way, the Arcane Armor Training feat tree will let you reduce arcane spell failure penalties in armor, though it eats your swift action each round you do, which interferes with casting quickened spells.)
There is an odd way to get back your spellcasting levels lost to the prereq levels; the guild rules and esoteric training. They're overpowered outside the context of the MT though and the rules are optional, so don't count on them being available.
Any class can work if it fits your needs. If the question is does it give up too much is a whole different question. Even that question is also subject to personal preference.
The mystic theurge is going to be weaker than a single class caster because of three reasons one is that you don’t get your highest level spells. Second is like you mentioned it does not advance class features other than spell casting. The last reason is that you do in fact lose caster levels. To qualify you need to take at least 3 levels of each class so that puts you three levels behind on caster level. Magic knack can offset some of the issue, but it only applies to the level based variables of the spell, not in gaining spells. You are using a oracle/sorcerer instead so the problem is even worse you now have to give u 4 caster levels on each class instead of three. Your classes are also spontaneous casters so have a limited number of spells known.
You could use the wildblooded archetype and chose Empyreal for your bloodline. This changes the casting stat to WIS instead of CHA. This would allow you to use cleric instead of an oracle. This way you would qualify with only 3 levels of cleric and 4 levels of sorcerer. As prepared divine caster clerics automatically know all spells of a level they are able to cast. This is actually a huge benefit for the mystic theurge.
The other thing that makes this viable is the fact that full casters are so much more powerful than other classes. If your party does not include a lot of full casters than it actually works out pretty well. If the party does not include a full caster it would probably be a better choice anyways. Not only do you cover all the casting you are also reducing your power closer to the rest of the group.
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There is an odd way to get back your spellcasting levels lost to the prereq levels; the guild rules and esoteric training. They're overpowered outside the context of the MT though and the rules are optional, so don't count on them being available.
Yep, your best bet to making a viable Mystic Theurge is with the Spellcasting Guild rules from Inner Sea Magic.
You'll easily get the Eclectic Training perk by around level 2-3
Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.
For the sake of an example, let's say you're a wizard 2, you put your +1 bonus from ET into wizard (making you cast as a level 3 wizard), and then go 3 levels of cleric. Get the Magical Knack trait and apply it to the opposite class that you boost with Eclectic Training (cleric, in our example.)
This allows you to enter Mystic Theurge at level 6. This means at level 6, you're an effective 4/4 caster in each of your classes (and casting at caster level 6 in one of them.)
By around level 7, you'll qualify for
Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.
This means that at 7, you're an effective 7 wizard (2 wizard levels, 2 mystic theurge levels, 3 esoteric training) and an effective 6 cleric with a level 7 caster level (3 cleric levels, 2 MT levels, 1 ET bonus.) Congrats on your full casting!
This continues until level 15, when you become a MT 10, at which point, you're effectively a 15/14 caster.
At level 16, you take another level in cleric, getting to 15/15 and 8th level spells in both classes.
Levels 17 and 18 increase the class of your choice to get to effective 17 casting, and 9th level spells.
Levels 19 and 20 go into the opposite class, increasing it to effective 17 casting, and getting 9th level spells in a second class as your level 20 capstone.
ah, I forgot Sorcerers and Oracles dont get tier 2 spells until 4 instead of 3.
I also forgot some of the spells at tier 9 that I would miss out.
Wish anyone? Just the thought of working towards 28-9 Intelligence before Wish could add another 5 is...awesome.
I play in a Pathfinder Society Campaign. I would have to check if those Inner Sea Magic rules would work.
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Mystic Theurge needs to have its own specific exception to the SLA FAQ nerf.
The Spellcasting Guild rules are not available in PFS (or in most home games, either, for that matter.)
They're truly incredibly broken for anyone not a Mystic Theurge. I mean, can you imagine, say, an Oradin with them? Getting bumped up +3 oracle levels (and up a tier of spellcasting) just because? I'm sure there are more offensive uses.
For that matter, a full spellcaster is pretty much encouraged to just take a 3-level dip into whatever other class they want just for the heck of it. I mean, why not? You'd lose out on some class features, sure, but you'd get a whole bunch in exchange.
The reason that they aren't OP on the MT is that even with nearly full double casting, you have virtually no class features, many of the ones you have are worthless because they stop scaling, and you have more spells than you can actually do anything with (although, if you can pull it off, I still contest that a Spellslinger works really well for your wizard levels since your cleric levels more than cancel out the most offensive losses from going Spellslinger, and then you actually have a use for all those spells.)
There is a further caveat: the levels that Gulthor suggests for getting the guild training are unlikely to be granted that early. You'd have to negotiate with your GM but they might not be available until level 9 and 15...
Have you looked at the Razmiran Sorceror instead?
Or a Witch, or Shaman, or any of the other ways to get both divine and arcane spells?
So the Mystic Theurge really cant work?
I used mystic theurge recently, but I did it with a Magus/Warpriest(cleric would work fine too) combo. The combination of their spells works great, especially with the ability to quick buff and then shove an Inflict Critical woulds into a Scimitar. I've never done full casters before with it, but I know Theurge can bring some solid pain
So the Mystic Theurge really cant work?
It'll probably never be as good as a straight base class, no. Then again, that's how most prestige classes are.
I've made (not played) a Mystic Theurge before. I went with Cleric 3/Wizard 7/Mystic Theurge 10. At level 20 I would finally get 9th levels spells. I'm not too fond of Sorcerer/Oracle and Sorcerer/Cleric Mystic Theurges because they delay entry and don't get 9th level spells.
I've heard people say that Mystic Theurge makes a good support caster; access to both divine and arcane buff spells is supposedly good. I don't know because I chose to make mine a blaster/support build instead of just focusing on buffs and stuff.
I used my wizard spells to blast. I chose the Admixture subschool (evocation) so I wouldn't have to worry about energy resistance/immunity. I applied the Magical Knack trait to my wizard CL to make me better at blasting.
I used the Ecclesitheurge cleric archetype. It can't use armor so you're not missing out on that anymore. It gets a Bonded Holy Symbol that functions just like a wizard's Arcane Bond item. Basically you get access to one spell from the entire cleric spell list once per day. You also get the ability to switch one of your domain spell lists for another every day (when you prepare). This archetype adds even more versatility to the Mystic Theurge.
I devoted my cleric spells to buffs and utility only. This meant I wouldn't have to worry about low spell DCs or penetrating SR; I lowered my wisdom accordingly.
Overall, the build seemed fine at higher levels. The biggest issue is how bad you are before level 8-10. The delay in higher level spells hurts.
You might get some jerks hating on you for not being optimized enough, but they suck so who cares! >:C
If you want to play a Mystic Theurge, just do it!
Mystic Theurge is very difficult to make work in any game that goes even so far as practical optimization (e.g. selecting intelligent feats and items, no cheese, no dips, etc). Being 3 levels behind in casting at every level is awful. If there is a full caster in your group you will always play second fiddle with spells two levels behind. If you don't have another caster the group suffers, because you''re missing out on many buffs and abilities the game more or less assumes you are likely to have.
Until very high levels you don't have access to more spells at all - for the majority of your career you will have fewer of your highest and second highest level spells than a full caster will have of his 3rd and 4th highest level spells: the claim that MT's are loaded with utility spells and so forth relative to a real caster is immediately proven false with even a casual examination.
I suspect that a moderately well built Theurge would even struggle in an unedited Adventure Path, most of which are designed with the assumption that players are very new to the game. Frankly, you give up too much and get too little. I'd never play a theurge again.
Alternatives include the Witch (interesting blended list), False Priest Sorcerer archetype (use divine items with sorcerer slots), Shaman (add sorcerer/wizard spells to your list with Lore Spirit), and Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle. Of them, I think the False Priest Sorcerer is the most interesting, especially when combined with a Mnemonic Robe.
They should just add 4 more levels to mystic theurge. You'd still have slowed progression, but you wouldn't have to abandon one spell list to finish the other.
What about cleric and empyreal sorcerer? Empyreal sorcerer used WIS as casting stat.
You're talking about a 8th level character with access to 2nd level spells. The problem has never been casting stat. It is and will always be the fact that you are a minimum of 3 levels behind as a caster in all meaningful regards.
What about cleric and empyreal sorcerer? Empyreal sorcerer used WIS as casting stat.
They work okay-ish (I'm not too fond of them), but you miss out on 9th level spells (assuming the campaign ends at level 20) and are delayed entry into MT for another level.
What about cleric and empyreal sorcerer? Empyreal sorcerer used WIS as casting stat.You're talking about a 8th level character with access to 2nd level spells. The problem has never been casting stat. It is and will always be the fact that you are a minimum of 3 levels behind as a caster in all meaningful regards.
Peter is right. The rest of the party has to basically carry a MT throughout 2/3 of its career with it being so far behind on casting. I've played in a PFS adventure with an 8th level, I think, MT and it was basically like that character wasn't even there during combats.
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What about cleric and empyreal sorcerer? Empyreal sorcerer used WIS as casting stat.You're talking about a 8th level character with access to 2nd level spells. The problem has never been casting stat. It is and will always be the fact that you are a minimum of 3 levels behind as a caster in all meaningful regards.
I have a PFS Mystic Theurge from the days when SLA qualified for the class. So, only a 1 level cost for the cleric level.
Even with that lower cost at the levels the character played at (2-9) the character was probably weaker than a straight wizard. Even one level as a wizard costs and buying a decent wisdom meant that int was lower.
The big problem is that the game is dominated by action econony. No matter how many spells obe has you're only casting one per round.
The character also just had TOO many options and not enough time to consider them all. I often realized tgat I should have done sonething different when it was too late.
What about cleric and empyreal sorcerer? Empyreal sorcerer used WIS as casting stat.You're talking about a 8th level character with access to 2nd level spells. The problem has never been casting stat. It is and will always be the fact that you are a minimum of 3 levels behind as a caster in all meaningful regards.I have a PFS Mystic Theurge from the days when SLA qualified for the class. So, only a 1 level cost for the cleric level.
Even with that lower cost at the levels the character played at (2-9) the character was probably weaker than a straight wizard. Even one level as a wizard costs and buying a decent wisdom meant that int was lower.
The big problem is that the game is dominated by action econony. No matter how many spells obe has you're only casting one per round.
The character also just had TOO many options and not enough time to consider them all. I often realized tgat I should have done sonething different when it was too late.
I know the feeling. I played a wizard that got sorcerer casting at 1/2 her wizard level in exchange for being one level behind as a wizard. Even being one level back sucked, and secondary features were never enough to make up for it, no matter how good.
Rather than repost my Mystic Theurge advice, I'll link to my thoughts on how to be the only spellcaster in a party. Oops -- it has my Mystic Theurge advice in it after all. It repeats several alternatives already posted above, but I went into more detail on each one, plus added in Bardic capability (assuming that you have to do ALL the spellcasting for the party). If you don't need the Bardic stuff (like if you convince somebody else to be at least a Sensei Monk), you can ignore the VMC Bard (and Bard-hybrid archetype and Bloodline) and thus free up some much-needed feats, thus making some of the options better (that is, converting them from Jack-of-Almost-All-Trades, Master of None to Jack-of-A-Pretty-Good-Number-of-Trades, and Not-Too-Shabby-at-Them).
When I get the urge to theurge, I typically turn to the Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle with the Dreamed Secrets feat. (Coupled up with a +1 Will trait, Dual-Minded, Iron Will, and rather specific armor together with Fate's Favored to ensure that you actually have a Will save worth a damn)
After that, it is more of a question as to what I want to do on the side, because despite running around with more spells per level than I can be bothered casting, I also have selectable class features. You know, Oracle.
Pseudo-full BAB and Martial Flexibility?
-> Wood Mystery (Wood Bond) + Warsighted Archetype. Wood is flexible, man.
Animal Companion, SAD-o-rama, and confusion-spamming menace?
-> Lunar Mystery (Primal Companion, Prophetic Armor, Touch of the Moon) + Black-Blooded Curse. Because, who needs dexterity?
Mist Assassin with spells that slow your foes down?
-> Waves Mystery (Freezing Spells + Water Sight) + Deaf Curse. Couple up with a lesser MM rod of Rime, so you can whack people with a Rime Holy Ice Weapon on the side and entangle your foes in the mist.
Chucking rocks at people in your spare time?
-> Stone Mystery (Rock Throwing) + Warsighted Archetype.
...and that's just off the top of my head. And, of course, don't forget the classic Paragon Surge - you might not be able to get any spell you want from the wizard list on the FLY anymore, but give it 24 hours and I'm pretty damn sure you'll find a way of coping.
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I have a PFS Mystic Theurge from the days when SLA qualified for the class. So, only a 1 level cost for the cleric level.What about cleric and empyreal sorcerer? Empyreal sorcerer used WIS as casting stat.You're talking about a 8th level character with access to 2nd level spells. The problem has never been casting stat. It is and will always be the fact that you are a minimum of 3 levels behind as a caster in all meaningful regards.
Back then MT was a solid choice. MT wasn't the top tier combat caster, but they had enough spells for bunches of OOC buffing along with solid in-combat casting. And utility for days.
There is a further caveat: the levels that Gulthor suggests for getting the guild training are unlikely to be granted that early. You'd have to negotiate with your GM but they might not be available until level 9 and 15...
Have you looked at the Razmiran Sorceror instead?
Or a Witch, or Shaman, or any of the other ways to get both divine and arcane spells?
This is a fair point. The rules regarding making your education checks state:
As a general rule, a student should be able to attempt 4 to 6 Education checks per character level... You can also simply tie these checks to character level, and allow characters to make 5 Education checks all at once every time they level up.
Which is where my Fame assumptions come from. If you have a GM that does not agree with this core assumption, it will take commensurately longer, potentially to the point of never even acquiring eclectic training, let alone esoteric training.
No it really doesnt work, at least how I hoped it would. i thought as the Oracle and Sorcerer both use Charisma as their casting stat they could both benefit instead of one pool of spells being useless because youre not putting points into it.
A Oracle/Sorcerer is different than than a Priest/Wizard. One casting stat means much higher DC and more spells per day, but the Priest Wizard both KNOW many more spells.
Very Impractical. Its better than other prestige classes I know of as they are generally obsolete. the mysic Theurge can still be useful as a jack-of-all-traes kind of Caster. The question is, how many strong spells are you losing by splitting up your levels instead of specializing?
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I have a Mystic Theurge in PFS. I started him out in 2009. He is 15 level now.
This was one of my first characters that I made with the Pathfinder rules.
He is a 3rd level Cleric of Pharasma/ 3rd level Necromancer/ 9 level MT.
I made some mistakes while making this character. One of the biggest ones was choosing conjuration and transmutation as oppositional schools. I was able to make up for that by casting cleric versions of the spells I was missing out on.
My character worked well as a "swiss army knife" My character had that invisibility purge....the gust of wind....dimensional anchor etc. I found the character worked particularly well when there was a full caster for arcane spells and Devine spells.
He would cover the bases the primary caster wasn't.
When he was the only arcane or divine caster in the party he did all right.
I enjoyed the spell combinations I could use. For example healing the party by using spectral hand, and channeling cure spells through it.
It was a real slog up to 8th level when my character got access to 3rd level spells. But at 11 level, when my character got access to 5th level spells, things got very interesting.
I enjoyed playing my character over the years. Was he the guy bringing down the bad guys in a single hit or spell? no. But he did a good job at buffing the party. people enjoy a haste/ prayer combination.
Anyways Can a Msytic Theurge work? Sure it can. Like any class, putting some thought into what you are going to focus on helps.
I hope this helps.
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If you're looking for a very mystic theurge type of base class, you might check out the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press. One of the new base classes within is, you guessed it, The Theurge base class :)
Play a theurge right from 1st-level!
Ok, missed a text in the class that ruins the Mystic Theurge. Spell Synthesis only works once per day.
Mystic Theurge needs to have its own specific exception to the SLA FAQ nerf.
I can't remember the exact build for the pre faq MT, and I might have a chance to use it, how did it go? I vaguely recall Alternate aasimar,but that's about it.
Can it work? As others have said, it depends on your definition of "work."
As a practical matter, it is less "powerful" than a straight 9-level caster. If you are just looking to mix some arcane or divine spells on a primary caster chassis, then you are better off looking at arcanist (Magaambyan initiate), oracle (ancient lorekeeper), or shaman (Lore spirit with Arcane Enlightenment).
However, if you want to cast from two different disciplines using two different sets of spell slots, then mystic theurge "works," to a degree. As mentioned, there is a period (basically around 5th to 11th character level) that you will effectively be Batman to a single-classed character's Superman; you will have a wide range, but less force.
Also, mystic theurge "works" with combining a 9-level caster with a 6-level caster: i.e., a magus 5/cleric (negative energy) 1/magus +2/cleric +2/mystic theurge 10; or an oracle 6/bard (or skald) 4/mystic theurge 10.
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If you're looking for a very mystic theurge type of base class, you might check out the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press. One of the new base classes within is, you guessed it, The Theurge base class :)
Play a theurge right from 1st-level!
Hey everyone! Just wanted to let you know the Expanded and Updated New Paths Compendium Hardcover is now available right here on Paizo.com!!
Expanded and Updated New Paths Compendium Hardcover
Features the Theurge plus 11 other new classes (plus archetypes, spells, feats, and more)
Hope you check it out :)
Well as long as we're talking about necromancy... cough cough... the Theurge is good for that because it gets two pools of undead for animate dead.