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I have a player who wants to play a necromancer type character in a no-evil alignment PCs campaign.
His solution to avoid casting evil create undead spells is to play an occultist - Necroccultist and make use of the Necromancy school's Necromantic Servant power below to create undead servants.
However given how similar the power is to create undead, aka they both need and animate bodies, should using Necromantic Servant be considered an evil act?
Please note this is not a rule question, but more of a gming question.
Necromantic Servant (Sp): As a standard action, you can expend 1 point of mental focus to raise a single human skeleton (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 250) or human zombie (Bestiary 288) from the ground to serve you for 10 minutes per occultist level you possess or until it is destroyed, whichever comes first. This servant has a number of hit points equal to 1/2 your maximum hit point total (not adjusted for temporary hit points or other temporary increases). It also uses your base attack bonus and gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1/2 your occultist level. At 5th level, whenever the necromantic servant would be destroyed, if you are within medium range (100 feet + 10 feet per level) of the servant, you can expend 1 point of mental focus as an immediate action to cause the servant to return to full hit points. At 9th level, you can choose to give the servant the bloody or burning simple template (if it’s a skeleton) or the fast simple template (if it’s a zombie). At 13th level, when you take an immediate action to restore your servant, it splits into two servants. You can have a maximum number of servants in existence equal to 1/2 your occultist level. At 17th level, the servant gains a teamwork feat of your choice.
That's up to you as the GM. if you want my opinion, I would say generally, yes; because it functions like animate dead. However, if I had a player who wanted to do it, I would rule that in his specific case it was not an evil act because the zombie/skeleton is animated by the necrocultist's mind, instead of dark magic.
Its neutral really. Its what you do with the dead that really matters.
Using the good (undead) people as trap spingers is pretty dark.
Ultimate Intrigue finally settled the debate over whether casting spells with the [evil] descriptor is evil. It is.
Every spell that creates undead, as far as I know, has the [evil] descriptor.
I don't think this SP would be much different. I think its still an evil act, but it takes more than one evil act to shift alignment.
It's as evil as crate undead or animate dead. How evil you want that to be in your setting is up to you, just be consistent.
Personally, for my settings undead are always evil as is there creation. It warps your soul in an irreparable way, even if you plan to do good with those undead.
Creating undead is an evil act. However, you have have someone non-evil creating undead. If they are an otherwise good person, except for this whole necromancer thing, then they're probably Neutral, not Evil, and therefor a possible fit for a non-evil campaign.
How the rest of the non-evil party will react to it though is another question.
Mauler familiar soulbound puppet is probably better for combat anyway, and that's a construct.
This is more of a question for the GM and how creation of undead works in the particular campaign world.
At my table, creatiion of undead is an evil act, regardless of the method.
Your GM's miles may vary.
The important part is that the GM states how animating the dead works in her game world, and what the alignment repercussions are. Ideally, that would be spelled out in a campaign players' guide, or discussed at Session Zero.
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Animate pile of sticks to help you, ok.
A pile of bones? EVIL!
Such is hard coded in PF, but if it's a home game, do what you will.
It's as evil as crate undead or animate dead. How evil you want that to be in your setting is up to you, just be consistent.
Personally, for my settings undead are always evil as is there creation. It warps your soul in an irreparable way, even if you plan to do good with those undead.
Even the Shadow Companions of a Good Shadowdancer are Evil?
I have never considered Necromancy inherently evil. I feel that the notion otherwise is a very outdated idea. Then again I also hate the simplistic morality that a number of other game mechanics push, IMO. I fear that any more details will derail the thread.
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Creation of undead wasn't talked about at the start of the campaign as as no one needed it.
I had since made it clear that the creation of undead is an evil act.
The Occultist-Necroccultist is being made by a new player. He is joining the party at lv 7.
The other party members are a LG Paladin, NG Cleric (Sarenrea), NG Druid and a CG Wizard.
The other players are ok with him playing a necromancer. I have made it clear that their characters will have to live with any positive or negative outcomes. (They are rulers of their own country that is NG in alignment and have a heavy Erastil + Sarenrea following.)
I'm not sure how flexible I want to be with the creating of undead. Currently I'm drawing the line at the defiling of actual bodies, regardless of how they died or are procured.
Necromantic Servant (Sp) is unusual, as it seems to be written with a lot left to interpretation. As I read it, the skeleton or zombie is just "summoned" out of the ground and don't need an actual dead body to defile.
The other issue I have Necromantic Servant is that it seems to be very powerful for a class power, namely "At 5th level, whenever the necromantic servant would be destroyed, if you are within medium range (100 feet + 10 feet per level) of the servant, you can expend 1 point of mental focus as an immediate action to cause the servant to return to full hit points." This gives it more tanking power than most other pets.
In the event it does gets destroy, the caster can just pop 1 back up at the cost of a mental focus.
I'm trying to find a middle ground for this player. One that can avoid alignment issues like evil spells and still allow him to play a necromancer like character.
I'd call it neutral efficient,
but then, my morals do vary
from dubious to downright scary--
some even say non-existent.
It sounds like you have a good reason to ask the player to make something else with out making a moral question. You think the ability is too powerful, plus there might be interparty conflict, the bad kind.
I personally wouldn't view animating the dead as an act to be inherently evil, but according to you, you've already outlined necromancy as a whole evil. He's still puppeteering a corpse, even if he just 'poofs' it from nowhere. The moral standards of the country they're in also makes it seem like an Evil act.
I'd tell your player he should save his necromancer for a more fitting campaign.
I personally wouldn't view animating the dead as an act to be inherently evil, but according to you, you've already outlined necromancy as a whole evil. He's still puppeteering a corpse, even if he just 'poofs' it from nowhere. The moral standards of the country they're in also makes it seem like an Evil act.
I'd tell your player he should save his necromancer for a more fitting campaign.
This.
Looking at a party of good characters that comprises a paladin and cleric of Sarenrae and saying "I'm going to play a necromancer!" is a total "That Guy" move. Don't be That Guy, or through inaction, enable That Guy to be That Guy.
No actual corpses were harmed in the activation of this ability.
A practitioner of the necromantic arts need not be evil.
I, for example, have spent years studying such dark arts to better understand how to destroy the unliving abominations that stalk the night.
However, I would never sully myself nor stoop so low as to desecrate a corpse by imbuing it with the forces of unlife and forcing it to dance like a puppet in mockery of the living, breathing person it once was!
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I won't go into all the for or against of Animate Dead being evil, but I do think there are two good reasons one could view this ability as not being evil, even with the hardest line on animate dead.
1) This isn't corpse desecration and won't interfere with anyone's ability to be raised etc. The dead 'comes from the ground' without any requirement for any sort of corpse being there.
2) Unlike other creation methods for undead, this doesn't create a permanent menace that the creator can't be sure of being able to control in the future.
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I personally wouldn't view animating the dead as an act to be inherently evil, but according to you, you've already outlined necromancy as a whole evil. He's still puppeteering a corpse, even if he just 'poofs' it from nowhere. The moral standards of the country they're in also makes it seem like an Evil act.
I'd tell your player he should save his necromancer for a more fitting campaign.
Ah, my bad. I'm actually for this ability not being any where as evil as normal animate dead. It's basically a summon skeleton spell and not a "let's defile bodies" to make undead spell.
I misread Necromantic Servant in my first pass, where I thought it requires a body to "turn" into a skeleton or zombie. It doesn't seem to need a corpse to work.
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I would like to make a couple of points, addressing issues in order of importance:
1) This ability looks WAY too powerful! Look at how much you can do with it!
A) That's a fair point, but there are a few things you need to understand: First, the summoned creature's maximum hit points are equal to 1/2 those of the caster. Given the need for multiple useful attributes, this total likely won't be that high. Sure, eventually a bloody skeleton is VERY hard to kill, but disabling it won't ever be that difficult, and Mental Focus is a finite resource. Think of it like using a summoning spell, except that it's worse than most summoning spells, even with the longer duration.
2) Isn't animating the dead evil?
A) Well, yes, but as I mentioned, and as other posters have mentioned, and even as the OP mentioned, this spell doesn't animate the dead: It creates what is, essentially, a summoned facsimile of an undead. There are no corpses consumed or lost, and the created being is entirely under your control. Plus, this ability DOESN'T function like Animate Dead, or any other dead-creating spells. Hit points, creature's available for use, etc. are not open-ended. It is expressly limited in its use. Now, does it still create horrid monstrosities? Absolutely. But without the evil descriptor, in the Golarion setting it'd be hard to argue that it's DEFINITELY evil.
Bottom line, the ability isn't as powerful as you're afraid it is, and isn't expressly evil. He should be good to go.
I will add that whether expressly evil or not, it is certainly creepy and dark. I think a Paladin might be able to be fine with such a thing, but I could also see a Paladin not liking this at all. Even if the creation act isn't evil, the Necromatic Servant will still detect as evil and all of that. It has the stats from the bestiary, including alignment.
It looks like your players are cool with this, so I personally as a GM wouldn't have an issue, but I certainly think you were right to bring it up with them first, and if the existing players had felt their good character's couldn't tolerate such a thing, I would back them an not allow it in this particular campaign.
This isn't corpse desecration and won't interfere with anyone's ability to be raised etc. The dead 'comes from the ground' without any requirement for any sort of corpse being there.
If I were the GM, I'd rule that using this ability causes the animation of a corpse that happened to have been buried at that location at some point in the past. "Comes from the ground" means that the zombie or skeleton claws its way to the surface and climbs out of the ground.
Creation of undead wasn't talked about at the start of the campaign as as no one needed it.
I had since made it clear that the creation of undead is an evil act.
The Occultist-Necroccultist is being made by a new player. He is joining the party at lv 7.The other party members are a LG Paladin, NG Cleric (Sarenrea), NG Druid and a CG Wizard.
The other players are ok with him playing a necromancer. I have made it clear that their characters will have to live with any positive or negative outcomes. (They are rulers of their own country that is NG in alignment and have a heavy Erastil + Sarenrea following.)I'm not sure how flexible I want to be with the creating of undead. Currently I'm drawing the line at the defiling of actual bodies, regardless of how they died or are procured.
Necromantic Servant (Sp) is unusual, as it seems to be written with a lot left to interpretation. As I read it, the skeleton or zombie is just "summoned" out of the ground and don't need an actual dead body to defile.
The other issue I have Necromantic Servant is that it seems to be very powerful for a class power, namely "At 5th level, whenever the necromantic servant would be destroyed, if you are within medium range (100 feet + 10 feet per level) of the servant, you can expend 1 point of mental focus as an immediate action to cause the servant to return to full hit points." This gives it more tanking power than most other pets.
In the event it does gets destroy, the caster can just pop 1 back up at the cost of a mental focus.
I'm trying to find a middle ground for this player. One that can avoid alignment issues like evil spells and still allow him to play a necromancer like character.
If ur thinking about how powerful it is, remember that's it's only out for at max an hour and 40 mins ingame time. The level 5 and the ability to seperate it does not increase or reset or restart the timer.
I will go ahead and echo others here that as a new person to the group, I would ask them to play another class OR.......Refluff the fluff. Same abilities but instead of a skeleton or zombie, he summons a "whatever" (from a fluffy blob Kirby to a space pirate ninja) and have it do what it does and same stats but change the fluff and instead of a "evil undead" to a "something that can fight" that the group can agree upon without and drama.