Do you think the fighter (and other martial classes) should have an Extra Attack ability (like 5th Edition) where they get multiple attacks as a standard action?
2 at 6th, 3 at 11th, and 4 at 16th?
When people complain about martials, they usually complain about the lack of options; it takes 10 levels to solidify a build, at which point you have one trick you're really good at and that's it. However, I've looked over people's builds and some of those single tricks are REALLY effective.
Do these martial builds get boring, though? If you slug it out long enough to GET to level 10 and master your build, You may be powerful enough for the next 10 levels, but from a player-perspective, is it worth it?
Depends on how boring you make that characters personality and background IMO.
Also if you don't like melee then don't play a martial. If you do, then make one that is not a one trick pony.
It is not martials that are boring IMO it is the one trick ponies.
It's not inherently more exciting to cast the same spells than it is to simply strike the same sword strikes. Games get boring no matter what your class if the focus remains solely on character mechanics. It's what you do beyond the mechanics that keeps the game fresh.
Mages do have the advantages of getting new spells as they level up not just getting "Full attack" at 6th level.
My biggest ire is that martials cannot afford to enjoy that snazzy 36 (18+2+5+5+6) Strength or suffer terribly in many aspects of a typical campaign, while casters can stay in spotlight while enjoying that 36 in their mental score of choice thanks to the fact that their spells are powered their diversity from that single casting stat. It drives me crazy with rage (no pun intended).
Any character class can be interesting and contribute both in and out of combat. It is the player that chooses not to build characters capable of doing so.
Do you think the fighter (and other martial classes) should have an Extra Attack ability (like 5th Edition) where they get multiple attacks as a standard action?
2 at 6th, 3 at 11th, and 4 at 16th?
Personally I think the solution is already there. Give martial characters more effective and interesting things to do with standard actions. Make it actually a choice whether or not you just full attack or take a standard action to do something.
So many problems are solved by unifying the underlying structure of the 'stuff' classes get between martial and non-martial options.
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I think, at least in the little experience I've had playing martial characters, that one ought to realize something.
Damage is useful, but the amount of damage it takes to be viable in a party is a lot lower than you would think. Find a reasonable amount of damage to deal in one standard/full-attack, and once you've hit that threshold, start diversifying your portfolio. Every martial ought to have a ranged option, so find a way to make ranged combat reasonable. If you have the feats for it, consider going down a combat maneuver feat line. I played a reach fighter oriented around trips/dirty tricks at one point, and between the two maneuvers and dealing respectable damage (thanks in part to the number of AoOs I got), I found that most situations I could contribute to the group in different ways, depending on the scenario.
One big, bad guy? Trip him, give everyone AoO's, then use Dirty Trick to blind him. Horde of enemies? Reach trips are amazing, and they all provoke when they stand back up. Flying enemies? Dirty Trick to entangle/blind them if they get into reach, and because my Dexterity is reasonable, I can pull out a bow and fire with decent amounts of success.
Dirty Trick is probably the best maneuver as far as keeping the game interesting is concerned, mostly because you can't just "dirty trick". You actually need to describe the action you're taking as part of the maneuver. That alone keeps things fun, and it's rewarding because, once your CMB gets high enough, even giants and dragons don't stand much of a chance avoiding getting blinded/etc.
Do you think the fighter (and other martial classes) should have an Extra Attack ability (like 5th Edition) where they get multiple attacks as a standard action?
2 at 6th, 3 at 11th, and 4 at 16th?
Personally I think the solution is already there. Give martial characters more effective and interesting things to do with standard actions. Make it actually a choice whether or not you just full attack or take a standard action to do something.
So many problems are solved by unifying the underlying structure of the 'stuff' classes get between martial and non-martial options.
On the other hand, I'd prefer a different way of balancing things than just making the martials into casters* too.
Muscle Wizard is fun as a character concept, but not as a system patch.
Personally I think the solution is already there.
All respect to DP for making good rules, but PoW is another fat system that is a burden when thrown atop the core rules.
I have no problem with rule heavy rulesets, I just absolutely detest big (and growing) spell lists and what results from them.
Do Martials Get Boring?
Inherently, no. But those self-same lack of options can get very boring and frustrating, in certain campaigns, tables, and play styles. It's up to the local table and specific challenges.
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Do these martial builds get boring, though?
It depends.
Doesn't reading 400 pages of spell descriptions for casters get boring?
See, some people want something simple and reliable, so the most complicated decision they need to make each round is "where should I stand", and they still need someone to help them make that decision. Having classes that are basically "point & shoot" either with melee or range is a good thing because it keeps the game accessible to mellow, uncomplicated players. Having "tier 1" high-narrative-impacting flexible casters is also a good thing, because the player who isn't drunk can be as clever as their own capacity for invention.
So yeah, it depends.
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Do you think the fighter (and other martial classes) should have an Extra Attack ability (like 5th Edition) where they get multiple attacks as a standard action?
2 at 6th, 3 at 11th, and 4 at 16th?
Personally I think the solution is already there. Give martial characters more effective and interesting things to do with standard actions. Make it actually a choice whether or not you just full attack or take a standard action to do something.
So many problems are solved by unifying the underlying structure of the 'stuff' classes get between martial and non-martial options.
On the other hand, I'd prefer a different way of balancing things than just making the martials into casters* too.
Muscle Wizard is fun as a character concept, but not as a system patch.
I don't want to make them into casters. What I want is the fundamental structure of their stuff to match. Casters get a usable resource of 'cool stuff' to do that requires a relatively limited investment of character resources to achieve (taking or learning a spell). When you try to balance that against always on abilities that lie within the martial sphere, its a big problem to manage peak vs average ability to get stuff done.
As a concept, maneuvers get closer to anything anyone else has tried to bring things closer together structurally while maintaining the general 'feel' of the actual abilities tied to the class that does them.
Personally I think the solution is already there.All respect to DP for making good rules, but PoW is another fat system that is a burden when thrown atop the core rules.
I have no problem with rule heavy rulesets, I just absolutely detest big (and growing) spell lists and what results from them.
I don't neccesarily support the idea of adopting them whole cloth. I don't allow all spells from all books in my game either. I am speaking more then concept then a specific implementation. Giving martial characters maneuvers as a usable resource to do cool thematic stuff that is more effective and interesting then just swinging a stick is a good idea.
And while its not a simple mechanically as just attacking, that's kind of the point, we want to make it more interesting. And if taken in in stages its not fatter then adding the advanced class guide to the core rules as what you are playing with. Particularly if you only concern yourself for the classes and maneuvers your party and npcs actually use.
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Do these martial builds get boring, though?It depends.
Doesn't reading 400 pages of spell descriptions for casters get boring?
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No!
Considering that in these kinds of threads Martial is defined as "cannot cast spells," yes.Must one exclude the other?I agree that Inquisitors, Oracles, and Skalds are good, but they're casters, not martials.Inquisitor martials are great. Skills, spells, and full attacks all rolled into one package. Add in a bunch of features that let me fine tune how much power I need, great RP options and a couple of unique abilities and it never gets old.
Oracle Martials are also fun. Combat buffs and social skills, the ability to help the whole party, and a wealth of unique class features combine into a very engaging combats.
Brawler always interests me, with the ability to master combat maneuvers in moments, debuff as I pump out damage, and serve as party scout out of fights.
Skald is cool, I can buff the party (with metal), then move into flank, cast a few buffs/debuffs, and smash away.
As long as my viable list of options are wider than "use a magic item" "move and attack" and "full attack" it stays interesting. Its why I shy away from fighters for full characters.
Ah, didn't realize it was one of those threads.
Well, Urogue is interesting when you can act. Especially Vexing Dodger or Thug/Scout Rogues. Move to better positions, impose penalties with attacks, throw out sickened/shaken debuffs (as well as blind and entangled), etc. Swashbuckler looks like it has a lot of intersting choices too. And playing an animal companion could be tons of fun.
Yes. They do.
I personally can't find myself playing a full martial without 3pp or extensive house ruling. A while ago I dropped from a otherwise enjoyable game because I simply couldn't bother to play my (martial) character in combat... -.-'
I really enjoy building martial characters. Unfortunately, I GM most of the time so I don't get to play them. I do get to use them as npcs or I get to see others play them. No one has ever complained about them being boring.
Do these martial builds get boring, though?It depends.
Doesn't reading 400 pages of spell descriptions for casters get boring?
Not really, the PFSRD has short versions on the spell lists so I don't have to read the full spell to know what it does.
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Yes. They do.
I personally can't find myself playing a full martial without 3pp or extensive house ruling. A while ago I dropped from a otherwise enjoyable game because I simply couldn't bother to play my (martial) character in combat... -.-'
Agreed and seconded. In a recent game I began making one through Herolab and frankly nothing jumped put at me in terms of class features. I made a few characters ended up not saving any. I ended up taking Samurai Sword Saint Archtype. It has better and more interesting class features imo. While still being able to do what a Fighter does.
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I feel that every competent PC can be fun if you love to roleplay. I enjoy it so much that sometimes I roleplay in board games. My PCs generally have a unique personality and some quirks. Even as a caster I don't always find that I need a wide variety of actions to take in combat to have some fun. One of my more infamous PCs relied almost exclusively on casting Fireball to deal with nearly every threat, and that was a fun part of his roleplaying. Against golems immune to Fireball he'd basically flip out, buff a little, and chop them up with an adamantine construct bane guisarme (which could also be used to trip)
The worst thing I've found about martials while playing 3 of them to 15th level concurrently in different campaigns is that having a low Will save too often means that you can't participate in the game or become a detriment to your party. Sure, DMs might be able to target low Fort svaes to kill arcane casters, but it seems like they rarely do, perhaps since "The Wizard is dead!" might seem less funny to DMs than, "The martial goes crazy and babbles/attacks himself/tries to kill the party/thinks he's a vampire named Count Sharkula again".
If you don't invest in mobility there can also be some frustrating moments when a melee focused PC can't get into the action. Once you're in melee it can also be entertaining to have different options and active defenses like Body Shield which is hilarious for making enemies hit each other. I've also been having fun debuffing via intimidate, something which isn't strictly limited to martials but can often be mixed into your attack routine.
Problem doesn't lay with any class... it lay with the campaign, the players, and the DM.
It's a ROLEPLAYING game. If all you do is dungeon crawl, yes, it will suck eventually no matter what you play. The point is to live another life in your imagination. That involves a lot more things than just fighting and spending loot.
Also, people tend to min/max. TO nip that in the bud, use stat-checks liberally when characters try to do things that their stats don't support. You don't have to have all of your martial stats at 16+ at the cost of 8-10 mental stats... I mean really, what does it get you? A few points of damage. Nothing that better tactics couldn't solve. Min/Maxed characters are BORING.
Urge creativity, roleplaying, and balanced characters. Make good stories, do good interactions - then the game won't get boring, martial class or not.
Also, and this may be taken skeptically... but I encourage not sugarcoating the dice when the players screw up. Let them die. Let them lose limbs. Let them fail the quests. Players that are used to winning constantly tend to get very bored very quickly. Sure, they'll whine when they lose their level 10 fighter because they got complacent. But they'll be better for it the next time around.
Sorry for the minirant :D
Meh, by level 10 death really just costs a bunch of gold and a week of recovery to get rid of the negative levels. It's levels 1-6 where death is an actual issue.
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Min/Maxed characters are BORING.
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Any character class can be interesting and contribute both in and out of combat. It is the player that chooses not to build characters capable of doing so.Yes, there are no small parts, only small actors.
Halflings and gnomes are small parts! ;-)
I love playing martial characters. I don't find them boring at all. Being on the front lines in combat is exciting to me and knowing that my death could come at any time makes the combat scenes far more interesting.