RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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lots of stuff, not re-quotingQuite a bit of a strawman since you utilized CR1 non-lethal traps. CRs (of anything) equivalent to the APL are not overly challenging by themselves. The hero should be walking through the "Hall of Infinte CR 3 traps" instead.
You're not really in a position to throw stones here, since you're pretending that a single character is equivalent to a 4-5 person party of the same level for determining the intended lethality of a given CR. That's pretty dishonest of you, and you should stop it.
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Detect magic being a cantrip means magical characters can always, when they take a moment to think about it, have magical senses, but this takes 6-18 seconds to make use of. Its a super common trope in like every fantasy series from lord of the rings to harry Dresden.
Fixes for the problem:
1. No always up nonsense. If the caster wants to detect magic, they have to say they detect it, take the action and point the darn thing in a given direction. If they want to sweep a room, that's a couple minutes at least. Fine for looting a room after an encounter, doesn't work through a whole dungeon.
2. If they decide to do it anyway, explain to them, out of character that as they delay the enemy is getting more prepared and encounters will go up in difficulty. Its perfectly reasonable if the party takes half an hour to walk down a hallway detecting magic every 60 feat in 8 directions.
3. If someone takes the time to place a magic trap, they can place magic aura too. So, just like every trap, you have to spot it with a perception check.
4. Magic items, put it in a lead lined chest, or container, problem solved. Party still has to search the old fashioned way.
5. Invisble opponents, in addition to step 1, remember it takes 3 rounds before someone has a location. You detect magic, enemy moves, you no longer detect magic over there, rinse and repeat. All the magic user gets is a picture that somewhere nearby there is something magical but cant lock it down, again appropriate in fantasy tropes for casters but doesn't actually accomplish much beyond a minor warning.
Cantrips aren't game breaking so long as you actually put them into a context of a world where this is a thing. And most of all, just talk to your players about what is or isn't obnoxious to you. You should be playing this game with friends. Be friends and talk to eachother.
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Another thing to keep in mind: traps can be used as part of an encounter. If the PCs are busy dodging sword-swinging orcs, or charging down a corridor towards the archers shooting them, they may not have time to check carefully for magical auras, tripwires, pressure plates, pits in the floor, nets dropping from above, etc.
Or one can use traps to separate the party -- e.g., a portcullis dropping from the ceiling, or the classic forcecage-with-hamatula, or something in between, to isolate one or more of the PCs from each other, allowing enemies to gang up on part of the party. (This can be lethal.)
Alarm-type traps (bells, falling stones, etc.) can be used to let monsters know that something is coming, allowing them to prepare, or combine forces, or flee the area.
Pathfinder is a very high magic game so detects will get used a lot. Its fine
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Magic raps? Word up, DM MC!
Wherever our party gonna go
I cast Detect Magic don’t ya know!
Traps and tricks can’t fool us now
We find yo treasure anyhow
If you really a “hater” when it come to Detect Magic and think it ruin all yo magic raps you can just kick it back up to a 1st level spell and watch people not use it much til they get a cheap wand later on. Then I guess you can ban the wands and stuff. The game still got Green Slime, and it still ain’t magic.
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Plus there are lots of non-magical traps.
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Just because it's a slow day in the office, I'm going to actually do an analysis of how hard it is to do any serious damage with traps....
I present unto you all <drum roll>, Nabisco the Incompetent, Bard of Bards. (All stats 13, no useful skills except his Perception score is +5 [+1 Wis, +1 rank, +3 class skill], no useful equipment or spells. He's got max hp at first level [9] and saves of +1/+3/+3). He will attempt to walk through the Hall of Infinite CR 1 Traps, encountering each one in turn -- but fortunately, because this dungeon is "not dynamic with monster movement," he can just back out and heal up before wandering in again, so he always encounters each trap at full hp.
Now, as a CR 1 creature himself, (actually, CR 1/2 because he effectively doesn't have PC wealth), he should, by the logic of the CR system, die 50% of the time or more at each trap. If he doesn't -- if he actually survives most of these traps -- that will show you just how ineffective traps are at causing casualties.
So let's begin.
I) He stumbles across the threshold and spots an arrow trap. With +15 to hit, it almost surely hits him for 2-9 points of damage, but he almost certainly stumbles back and recovers. Even at full damage, he is not dead, only seriously injured -- and from here on, I will assume average damage for simplicity.
II) On his next trip, he crosses the same threshold, but because the arrow trap doesn't self-reset, he's safe.... until he steps forward onto the collapsing floor. Needing a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid it, he naturally fails and tumbles 10 feet down, taking 1d6 damage.
III) Bypassing the unrepaired collapsing floor, he instead trips and slides into a...
And this is why I ad-hoc CRs from traps. The existing CRs are almost always too high.
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I am new to pathfinder and a GM and player> they party of player is a dm'ing are rule mongers. They always have detect magic going do end y thing magic (I,e, traps or item are pointless. I need a to know if there is a fix for this ? They have it running at all times. This has made magic raps pointless. help please
Texas_ogre, basically, traps have been progressively marginalized with each new version since 3.0 came out.
Back in the "good old days" you could have a dungeon full of traps and only a rogue could do anything about it. This had a number of problems.
A) It REQUIRED a rogue to be part of the group. No Rogue? You are screwed if you ran into a trap.
B) Traps were LETHAL compared to nowadays. Even simple traps did a lot higher damage relatively than traps do since 3rd edition. The damage of the traps hasn't changed that much, the health of the characters has.
C) Traps back in the "good old days" were usually boring or frustrating. Either you could figure your way around them or you couldn't.
I agree that traps need to become more relevant, but they should not be an encounter unto themselves (usually). That is bad trap design. The best traps are the ones that have a battle involved.
As for Detect Magic, that is really a non-issue. Perception does even more, is not directional, everyone can do it, and is not restricted by distance (just penalized for distance).
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Just because it's a slow day in the office, I'm going to actually do an analysis of how hard it is to do any serious damage with traps....And this is why I ad-hoc CRs from traps. The existing CRs are almost always too high.
Maybe. Or maybe not. Maybe the existing CRs are presupposing a tactical situation where traps are appropriate.
A better test (for me), is whether a CR 1 creature plus a CR 1 trap is similar in lethality to a CR 3 creature. A non-lethal spell on its own is a nuisance; a non-lethal spell that debuffs you in the face of a weak opponent may end up allowing you to be killed easily.
I suspect that you're right, though, and that the existing CRs are too high. A trap that casts a single level X spell is a CR X+1 trap. I can't imagine a single fireball being equivalent to a griffon or a dire boar, let alone a wyrmling green dragon that itself has an AoE damage attack.
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There's a bigger point, though, which is the fact that traps are, in fact, lousy tacticians. Even animals can pick appropriate targets, choose good times and places to spring, flee if they're overmatched, focus/flank on particular enemies, and so forth. Traps just go off when the wire is tripped, and typically only do that once.
Monsters with bad tactical sense (e.g. golems) are typically given tremendous survivability (often including astonishing defenses) in order to make sure that they will still be around next round; the designers know that otherwise a humanoid with a third the hit points is more dangerous than a golem would be. Traps have all the brains of golems, but none of their survivability.
... which is fine, because traps aren't supposed to be challenging encounters. Traps make other encounters challenging, as the Army docs above show.
I used to have a DM that rigged traps in pairs, setting them to trigger *specifically* by the other one being disabled....
I would suggest first, adding fewer but bigger threat traps. A bunch of little hindrance traps are just that: hindrances. As stated above, a booby traps purpose isn't necessarily to kill, even slowing progress serves its purpose. But bringing the game to a halt every 2 minutes to roll dice really brings the fun down.
Second, there is such a thing as skill based encounters. Similar to EXP for traps, you can design areas to test the skills of characters. Complex climbing, dangerous jumping, perilous balancing, all can achieve the same effects as traps: difficulty, time, injuries.
Third, get your players OUT of the groove of constantly expecting traps. Make sure that your traps match the theme of where you're at too. Remember that traps cost money to create, construction time and costs to install, and not everyone has access to the magical means for more advanced magical traps. Not all places have (or warrent) traps.
*Mines, caverns and natural areas aren't likely to have anything except possibly the most basic things: trip wires to an explosive barrel, a beam holding up a small cave in, things like that.
*Areas built for utility reasons: Mines (again), dungeons, cell blocks, temples and similar buildings aren't likely to be trapped either. Even for the purposes of jailing creatures, most people won't have a desire to have escaping creatures outright killed, or why jail them? Why would a temple risk injuries among its staff or visitors? Why would a mine risk hurting it's workers?
*Tombs and Crypts: This is where it makes sense to have trapped areas. It's common for people to be laid to rest with the possessions they had in life. Treasures and riches always draw adventurers and grave robbers. Mechanical traps make the most sense here, as they would be built into the crypt. You're likely to see things that can be reset and reused, as well as threats like opening floors, spike pits, rooms that lock after entering, falling ceilings and others. Depending on the wealth of who is entombed, magical traps may also begin to be employed, but likely only for the most important areas/items.
*Exotic areas: Here's where magical traps make the most sense. A mages tower to guard their knowledge and wealth. Major institutions like banks and museums. Secret entrances nobody else is supposed to use/know about. The hideouts of the Big Bad and his minions.
And lastly, (as stated before) Detect Magic is simply going to tell you the presence, and then strength, and then finally the school of magic used to make whatever enchantments are in play. Your player is sniffing out auras, nothing more. His Spider Sense is tingling, but it's not pinpointing everything for him. Remember that materials of certain thicknesses block detection, as well as certain other counter spells. If he wants to drag the game down, start tracking the ACTUAL amount of time they're taking. Remind them that after 8 hours of their creeping pace they're tired and it might be time to rest. Remind them about their daily needs like rest and food. Make them realize how much more time they are burning. Have them find that magical treasure, but when they go to sell it have the merchant only offer them 25% of its value because:
"Well some other adventurous folks like you just came through and sold me a bunch of stuff just like this so I don't really need it or have the money, but if you had been here just a couple days ago... "
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How much fun are traps that you can't find until you trigger them?
How much fun are traps that you can find, but then need to figure out how to get past safely?
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It's okay that your players spot the traps while they're taking their time looking for them. Focus your energy on making the trap an interesting challenge to bypass.
Traps do not exist in a vacuum.
You could have clickplates. When you step on one it sounds like a trap triggering. It's up to you weather any of them radiate magic.
Maybe the goblins religiously go out and reset any traps. That might be how they eat and gather treasure. Aside from undead and golems, nothing can wait in their room for a victim to come to them for years.
Detect Magic will end if the PC casts another spell. That's likely to happen when the PC gets into combat. Traps which go off during combat have a chance to actually become a dangerous challenge, especially if the trap is one which creates a disadvantage for the PCs and or advantage for the enemies (in addition to any damage it might cause). Undead or Constructs with tremorsense, blindsight, or just Blind Fighting might think poison gas is pretty fun.
The groups I play with use the Crit deck for any traps which make attack rolls. A scything blade trap is a little scarier if it might Decapitate you for "double damage and death". We also use Hero Points, but getting somebody to spend those to avoid getting killed or crippled by a trap is the sort of thing our DMs find fun. I guess some of us feel that laughing at PCs for almost dying is often more fun than them actually dying.
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But he said that he didn't overuse magic traps.
They are 3rd to 5th level. Do I over use magic traps no not really .In fact their have just encounters their first 2 of them in the dungeon they are in now. I want to be fair but they are always pinging . It takes away a lot of the story and to be honest my enjoyment from the game. Paizo really needs to remove a lot of the OP spells or at least give them better rights ups that make sense like a dc check first the spell caster .I haven't played since DnD 2.o but pathfinder has huge holes you can drive a truck through
;)
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.... trapped barns... @_@
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.... trapped barns... @_@
I can't stop laughing at this. Seriously, I can't stop. Farm of Horrors?
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but...
Round One: Presence or absence of magical auras.
Round Two: Number of different magical auras, and strength of strongest aura.
Round Three: Strength and Location of each magic aura. If an aura is in line of sight, you can make a Knowkledge (Arcana) check to identify the school of magic. If the aura eminates from an item, you can attempt to identify it with a Spellcraft check.
Seeing how each round is six seconds, that means that roughly speaking, a caster needs to be moving slowly and facing the same direction for 18 seconds before they're aware of the locations of any magical auras. Assuming they're not in front of the party (and as a spellcaster, they're probably not), and another party member in front of them has a magic item on them, the "presence or absence of a magical aura" step will always be on, so even if they do step in front of something magical, they won't even be aware of its presence unless it remains in Detect Magic's area of effect for an additional 6 seconds, at which point, they'll still only be aware of the presence of an additional aura.
Detect Magic has a range of 60'. Most creatures have a move speed of 30'. This means that typically speaking, a caster will need to move at half speed while using Detect Magic if they ever want to study an area long enough to learn the locations of magic auras. A lot of different materials block Detect Magic, including 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal (which includes most dungeon doors), a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood/dirt.
So, worry not - Detect Magic isn't as broken as many people think. Remember that most creatures smart enough to set up a magical trap or hide a magical item would also strongly consider adding some lead to hide its presence, and remember also that turning on Detect Magic in the midst of battle is usually a mistake for the caster, and finally, exploring at a moderate or faster pace with Detect Magic is no guarantee to find every single magical item/trap, and even if/when they DO find one, there's still a skill check to be made to identify its properties.
I assume you have talked to the GM about laying off the traps. Every GM goes through that phase, I can be smug about it because I did it a long time ago in a place far far away.
I was horrible, and oh so much worse when a couple of my traps were published. An amazing amount of utter Drek was published then just like now.
Have you considered insisting on City adventures until the GM eases up?
GM. "A dying man staggers up to you, clutching a bloody map to his chest..."
Dwarf. "Another round of drinks Barkeep, and mind the trap on that cask of Porter."
Cleric. "There you are sir, all better now. Oh no, you keep that piece of paper, we are on hiatus."
Wizard, casting Cantrips, "There you are sir all cleaned and mended, couldn't have you going out looking like that. No, really, just go."
I had the same issue once. It didn't bother me that much, because I usually run sandbox games, yet I found it little annoying that they've been casting detect magic all the time and I had it enough when wizard did it in castle's toilet room (what did he expected to find there?!). So I came up with a trap that is triggered whenever that spell was being cast (it was sensitive to keywords) and which activated a huge, stone globe that came down through narrow corridor, destroying everything on its path. When I told them how it was activated, they have stopped spamming detect magic. We still laugh about it and that ball got pretty famous.
So, this is more like an anecdote than a solution, but you should't worry so much about players detecting some of your traps and hazards. Non-magical traps can be just as effective or even more so (collapsing walls, pits... all of this can be very dangerous), but I believe that you have a different problem, which is pretty common amongst new GMs.
You need different approach. When you design complicated dungeon, you should give your players as much freedom as you can. Don't force them to visit every room, don't force them to fight every creature there and finally don't force them to fall in every trap of yours. It's not a puppets theatre. Create many passages (some of them can be well hidden and let PCs skip dangerous parts), rooms, corridors and let them be discovered. Make player choices meaningful and finally; if they walked through your dungeon like a breeze, skipping most of your hazards, then don't make thier lives harder just because they have outsmarted you. They've done it a clever way so they deserve a reward for that, not a punishment.
You and your players are part of the same team, working together towards the same goal, which is called "Fun". Give them more freedom, focus more on designing world around them, rather than the story that you've forced them to be part of. It is much easier this way :)
I found Detect Magic to be a pain at first but really it shouldn't be.
In the case of looking for traps and other auras whilst exploring, the fact that it takes 3 rounds of the caster standing still and exposed at the front of the party in order to be effective should be a deterrent. Keep rolling for wandering monsters and keeping track of time. If there are no negative consequences for keeping Detect Magic going continually then it is a prudent action by the players.
In the case of searching a room for treasure. Given that Detect Magic is a cantrip and so very common, it would be expected that any quality furniture maker would use a wood/lead/wood laminate for drawers, cupboards and wardrobes so that magical items did not advertise themselves to thieves. Lead boxes would also be common, as would lead lined sheathes. Casters may use Magic Aura if no mundane option exists.
You may also houserule that certain rooms generate an overwhelming aura e.g. places of worship (that provide deities with their power) and further houserule that the stun effect described in the detect evil spell applies to all detect spells with overwhelming auras.
Hope that helps
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I think it's funny that people are still trying to help the OP. :D
This is kinda off topic, but reading about the lead made me wonder, if you created spikes that were magically enchanted or even just a weapon but it was made of lead would it still detect as magic?
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People only read the open post and ignore that all these suggestions were used to a terrible end. Also, someone in the original posts were talking about this being a troll but apparently the OP was just a bad DM. At least he caught whiff of something.
For that matter, talk about hindsight. When a cantrip is a problem, one has to wonder what is going on at the table. Did nobody wonder what was up?
This is kinda off topic, but reading about the lead made me wonder, if you created spikes that were magically enchanted or even just a weapon but it was made of lead would it still detect as magic?
I would imagine that since it is the lead itself that is magic, it would detect as magic.
No trolling i promise . I am new to pathfinder . last time i played was 2.0 and yes was a very long time ago. I have a got a lot of ideas on how to use the rulesIs it mean to wonder if this is a troll?
If the OP has 2e experience and three posts ever on the boards... 30+ years old...
Well, the first thing of all is that if your plans are being foiled by a single cantrip, you need to re-think your setups. But I'm not here just to judge you. So to recap:
1. Use mechanical traps. -- This is simple enough. Sense Magic doesn't sense what isn't magic.
2. Pair the trap with a monster attack.
3. Make unavoidable traps. Mind you, not Unescapable traps. And definitely don't make them Save-Or-Suck traps. But stuff like: "The door you have to go through is trapped. Now how will you deal with that?"
4. Don't hide magic items. -- This is arguably one of the ways the rules have gotten "kinder and gentler". There's no real point to making characters pass over useful magic items. If you really need them to not know how awesome an item they have is until later, simply make that item get more awesome/powerful at the adventure goes along.
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Sarenrae sometimes tells her following to test people who come to her temples. If they weren't able to avoid the 10 fireball traps on the way in, they weren't really worthy of mercy. Fireballs teaches one to be humble. ;3
See Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade.
A humble man bows and thus avoids the blades.
Characters should only die in these games if they are being stupid.
The OP shouldn't add lead after the fact. Maybe they still read these topics. Maybe they are slowly starting to realize why they got dumped from the gaming group.
I resent the 2 flame war groups. While some trolls give people a hard time for going along with the OP, the others attack anyone who disagrees with the OP as if they were off topic. Then when I offer a compromise, both groups attack me. Usually I just hide the topic, but since most of the posters have been discussing this intelligently, I won't report it and recommend it be locked, yet.
You know it takes like three rounds of concentration to locate an aura with Detect Magic. How frequently are these opponents casting detect magic to locate a rogue?
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You know it takes like three rounds of concentration to locate an aura with Detect Magic. How frequently are these opponents casting detect magic to locate a rogue?
It's 3 rounds, but still only one casting. It just has to be maintained, not that it matters whether it is cast 3 times or maintained. Most of the time when GM's complain about this spell it is because it found magical traps.
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The newly released Ultimate Intrigue actually addresses this.
Detect Magic: Though this at-will cantrip is an extremely powerful tool, remember that concentrating to maintain the spell consumes the caster’s standard action every round, and may significantly slow a party’s progress when timing is important or action is required. It also requires several rounds to reveal useful information.
On the first round of the spell, the caster doesn’t learn more than the presence or absence of magical auras in a 60-foot cone. If the wizard is standing behind someone in the party who has a magic item, he’ll get a false positive. Even on the second round, the caster just learns the number of auras and the power of the most potent aura, so it takes quite a while to pinpoint the locations of each aura. For instance, a common complaint about detect magic is that it might reveal invisible creatures, but in reality, an invisible creature can easily run circles around the concentrating wizard’s cone, never allowing the wizard
enough time to pinpoint it.The final and most important point to note is the fact that magical areas, multiple types of magic, and stronger auras can distort or conceal weaker auras. Very few GMs use this to its full potential. For instance, the NPCs might build their base on a ley line in order to mask magic auras. If all else fails, numerous countermeasures protect against a simple detect magic spell, starting with nonmagical means such as thin layers of lead and moving to magic aura, nondetection, misdirection, and more. Take a look at greater magic aura (see page 219) for a solid countermeasure. Greater detect magic (see page 212) allows for some interesting additional pieces of information, but it’s a 2nd-level spell, so it can never be as ubiquitous as the 0-level version. Greater magic aura still foils greater detect magic.