What to do with a cheating player.

[the David]

So I caught a player redhanded. Now he claims he only wanted to help by listing all the loot. What he did was copy paste all of the loot from the module we nearly finished. I figured it out when he added loot from encounters they've missed.

I'm a little bit pissed and dissapointed about this. He claims that he only looked at the loot and that he asked me for permission. (I think I'd remember a thing like that, but we were playing through Skype so I could have missed it.)

So what should I do? I think I have 3 options.
1. Boot the player from my campaign. Players are scarce around here though.
2. Change every important detail for the remainder of the campaign. Lot of work for a prewritten campaign.
3. Write my own campaign. A lot more work, but it might be more enjoyable in the end.

[The Sword]

Boot, unless he is good friends with the others and it will cause you problems in the long run. Without trust there is nothing.

[Herbatnik]

Boot. Simplest way to fix campaign without messing with plot.

[Scott Wilhelm]

the David wrote:

So what should I do? I think I have 3 options.

1. Boot the player from my campaign. Players are scarce around here though.
2. Change every important detail for the remainder of the campaign. Lot of work for a prewritten campaign.
3. Write my own campaign. A lot more work, but it might be more enjoyable in the end.

There are more options. There are all kinds of ways of punishing a cheating player. You have all the power here. There is nothing wrong with just rewording that the cheating player's share of the magic items are all cursed, and he gets to find that out in his next combat. Or that his gold coins are really foil-wrapped chocolates. And he accuses you of cheating, you lean back, fold your arms and say, "No, you are cheating, and this is your punishment. Dungeon Masters never cheat: we don't have to."

2&3 are good options. You are supposed to change details in modules. You are supposed to write your own adventures and create your own stories. That is the whole point of a fantasy Roleplaying game: to explore each other's minds and collaboratively craft a good story. Honestly, the fact that no part of this adventure was yours personally makes you partly to blame, here. Personally, I feel cheated when a GM is unwilling to put himself into a campaign.

[Pizza Lord]

2 and 3 is basically you punishing yourself with more work because a player cheated.

Either it's going to be that you tell him he's on thin ice and you don't tolerate that, and that every other player should know this, or boot him out now.

There is no justification for someone ruining everyone else's enjoyment. This includes yours, even if it seems the other players aren't aware of it. If you do decide on a warning, then you have to switch things around as appropriate.

I had the same problem with a player when I purchased Way of the Wicked. After I bought the first 2 books, he went to Pirate Bay and pirated a copy after he learned the name of the module. He also went on forums and asked for what classes would be optimized for the adventure, claiming it's not cheating to know the best way to beat a module, even though we had clearly over the many and very specific details laid out in that module on character creation.

Sure, he ended up being the ride for one of the other players and the remaining 2 couldn't finish the story on their own (thankfully I only bought the first 2 parts, like I said) so that did end the campaign for everyone, but his actions we're just too poisonous to keep (and the more we tried to work around it the more brazen or entitled he felt.)

It's just a pure slap in the face to everyone when a player does things like this. It's one thing to have read or previously played a module but this is blatant cheating even if its just looking over treasure tables and seeing what they missed while the adventure is on-going. After the campaign is another story.

[CalebTGordan]

You talk to him and ask him to stop.

When he does it again you talk to him and ask him to stop or else, with the or else being he will be kicked out.

When he does it a third time you talk to him and then kick him out. Be civil and explain that clearly your game isn't the game for him. That his expectations and play style are counter to yours and that he needs to go elsewhere for games. If he takes it well enough, let him know you may be willing to let him play with you in a future game, but probably not for a while. If he deals with it poorly, and gets angry, don't say anything about future games. If he yells, calls you names, and issues threats of violence (or uses violence) be sure to inform him that he will not be playing with you at all in any future games and that you will be sure let other people in your area know about his game etiquette.

[Bofor]

I would be honest with the player and state in clear terms that you don't trust the player and are no longer welcome. People make decisions and should be held accountable for those decisions. It really is not your responsibility to teach basic ethics. Whichever way you decide, I wish you good luck.

[KenderKin]

It is hard to say whether or not the player is or was cheating.

The most likely scenario is he asked to track loot. You may have said yes. What was never discussed was how that was to be accomplished.

As a loot tracker I have seen it done two ways.
1.additive as you find something you add it to the inventory
2. Subtractive you start with the total and subtract items from it.

If I were tracking loot for a module the most efficient method is the second one. Which seems to be what the person is saying.

Also I recall using the additive method and at least one lost loot sheet!

So the first thing is to resolve the issue by clarifying exactly what and how loot will be tracked. A shared spreadsheet lets everyone see everything all the time....if it is in the open and being reviewed all the time cheating is limited...

[the David]

I believe people make mistakes, and that there should be room for forgiveness and second chances.
Ofcourse, I don't want to make the same mistake twice, so I think I will be writing my own campaign. It's a lot of work, but I don't really have a life anyway. I wanted to see if I could customize a campaign for the players anyway, so this is my big chance.

In his defense, he's a good roleplayer and I enjoy playing with him.

[Rub-Eta]

So, he was in possesion of loot he wasn't even supposd to be aware of? Because he just wrote down all loot he found in the adventure module book? Honestly, this is probably a bigger problem with the player than just this one case. You don't make that misstake.

[Devilkiller]

If you want to take the player's story at face value - Maybe you could try emailing the loot to the players so that they don't want to look in the module to make sure they didn't miss any. It might work even better to send them a link to a Google spreadsheet with all the treasure on it.

[the David]

I do think it's an honest mistake. And a bit naive.

I do plan on handling the loot list myself from now on.

[J-Bone]

I have a player in my game who sits on the SRD looking up monsters and the various books in the AP. I didn't really get a full sense of this till recently and I feel its poisoned my game. That said, I think the best way to handle stuff like that is heavily modify the AP and encounters. Don't be a complete slave to how the monsters appear in the books nor the little details in the story. Feel free to change them up and hopefully you can dispense with some of that nonsense.

[Devilkiller]

@J-Bone - Somebody looking in the AP book is clearly out of bounds. How would you feel about a player who doesn't look on the SRD during combat but simply remembers the capabilities of most monsters from experience as a DM?

I used to play with a DM who gave wonderful description of locations and NPCs but wouldn't describe monsters much more than, "You see a big, hairy guy/thing" since he was afraid that some player would recognize the monster and know its abilities. For instance, giants all looked the same so that nobody could guess whether they might be immune to cold, fire, etc.

[Fergie]

Sounds like the player was not trying to be malicious. It also sounds like you might have given permission, even if it was a miscommunication.

This sounds like a good opportunity to talk to all the players in a non-confrontational way about game expectations.
Make it clear that players are NOT allowed to read the modules or adventure path. NO EXCEPTIONS. Ask that they also not read message boards and such about the adventure. Once the whole thing is complete, they are welcome to read anything they like.

I would also make it clear that players are not allowed to read up on monsters, spells, NPCs, feats, etc. that the enemy is using. If they want to know more about these things (and they should) they should do it in character.

As for information the player might have already gotten... Well, an odd thing about counter-intelligence in warfare: it's not about feeding an enemy a steady stream of false information. The most effective use of counter-intelligence involves giving a steady stream of GOOD information right up until it matters most. So basically, you don't need to change any of the minor details, just one important bit. Just make sure you think through the consequences, so you don't kill off an important future NPC or something.

[Harleequin]

Cannot abide cheating players.... one warning and if they continue, dice rolls suddenly start to go wrong!

[RedDogMT]

If the player pasted all of the loot from the adventure, then he had to go through the module and look at each encounter. His excuse that he 'just wanted to make things easier' is flimsy at best or a untrustable at worse. He should not have looked at one word fo the module in the first place.

When I have a new player, we specifically take a minute to talk about the consequences of cheating. Cheat and you are out. Once you begin to distrust your players, the game starts to loose some of it's enjoyment.

I would 'ask' him to leave.

[KenderKin]

The timing is also important they were wrapping up the module according to the OPso was the player cheating or was he trying to help wrap up?

More importantly I think the cheater would have either remained silent on the issue of loot tracking, or been smart enough to know to remove skipped encounters....the fact he didn't realize this points to not reading the encounters.

I stick to my original position contrary to the OPs assertions the player has been caught red handed, and proven guilty of cheating.

[BigNorseWolf]

Change the plot radically, drop hints that the plot has changed, and see if he's the only one in the party going with the regular plot.

[Eviljames]

What to do with a cheating player?
What to do with a cheating player?
What to do with a cheating player?
Late in the campaign.

We -ell that's stumper.
We -ell that's stumper.
We -ell that's stumper.
Late in the campaign.

Put him in hole with a scary monster
Pick an ugly from the kyton roster
With its love of blades and knives to foster
Late in the campaign.

Run him afoul of Eldritch Horrors.
Break his mind on sanity's borders.
Hunted and alone on the deepest sho-res
Late in the campaign.

That's what you do with a cheating player.
That's what you do with a cheating player.
That's what you do with a cheating player.
Late in the campaign.

[Raven's Shadow 2]

We had one we made stat blocks for the pc so the gm could tell. You can also cheat. Their a good book call by John wick called "play Dirty" Its has some good ideas. For us we eventually had enough and remove the player. The other thing you can do is make all rolls in front on the gm on the battle mat.

[MageHunter]

Harleequin wrote:

Cannot abide cheating players.... one warning and if they continue, dice rolls suddenly start to go wrong!

I was in a 1st level campaign where the GM would threaten to send a Froghemeth after us. I normally use Tarrasques.

[Cevah]

I am loot tracker in the current AP. The only time I look in the AP is to find the spelling, sale value, and sometimes the exact powers of an identified magic item. [Given our wizard's spellcraft, IDing items is easy and is either "you get nothing" or "here is what it does".] I don't look for stuff in the AP, and most certainly don't read it. "Spoiler" knowledge ruins my own fun also. I try very hard to have my character do what he does because of what the character knows, and not what the player knows.

I have a similar situation with respect to the DM screen. I am tall, and usually sit next to it, and can often see map layouts and such. I ignore that, except when called upon to draw the layout. GM knows I can see it, and I think trusts me not to draw "special" stuff, as well as to play it from the character's point of view. Again, it is more fun trying to "win" in character.

In reading the AP threads, I occasionally get hints about what will happen, and who the bad guys are and so on. Again, I play without that knowledge, as it is more fun. There a few times, when I had to make a decision about something that could be influenced by such knowledge. I know what the consequence will be. But I try to decide without such info, and have even asked the GM which path he thinks my character would go. This does lead at times to bad things happening to me and/or the party, but there is a lot of fun in surviving and turning it around.

As for loot tracking, it should be only additive. If you don't record it, someone forgot to pack it. If you lost the page, someone misplaced a bunch of loot. Sometimes the GM will be merciful, but it is much better not to loose track in the first place. I write stuff down during the game, and transcribe it afterwords to a spreadsheet while crossing off from my notes. This has served me well, except for the non-standard stuff.

/cevah

[Oxylepy]

My players cheat a lot. From fudging their die rolls, to not preparing spells, to looking up creatures in the bestiary.

The first can be handled by having a more open table with it, so everyone can see everyone else's rolls. I also removed a lot of rolling (daily initiative, instead of encounter, lots of taking 10s and passive 10s for rolls, etc)

The second just requires a few instances of "you have no spells prepared, so you have no casting today"

And the last one, and in the case of what you have to worry about: Reskin things. Reskin creatures, move secret doors and traps around, etc. Toss a different trap, resistance, etc on things, ramp up or down creatures and throw the PC for a loop.

[SmiloDan]

In my last game, the DM cheated and took away all my class abilities, so I know it's a two-way street. We only have 1 or 2 sessions yet (RotRL converted to 5th Ed). So I will probably try to be the bigger an and not ruin a two year campaign for the other players.

I'm supposed to run the next campaign, and I'm not sure I can fairly adjudicate the cheating DM.

It's a rough situation.

[Brodavid]

I peeked at a module for an RPG. Once. Least satisfying gaming experience I have ever had, and never did it again. If someone can cheat at RPGs and still wants to play, I would seriously question their motives for playing. I would also seriously question whether they were the kind of player I wanted to play with at all. Ultimately, you're GM, so it's your choice, but letting it continue would ruin the fun for everyone but him.

[Devilkiller]

DM screens are a crutch of the weak. The DM shouldn't hide his or her mighty dice behind a screen. Roll them on the table for everybody to see and fear!

We did once have a guy with a generally overpowered build who allegedly "rolled his hit points at home" and ended up averaging over 11 per die on something like 10d12. The PC didn't survive a full session after that.

[Rhaleroad]

Gaming is about having a good time and once you say someone is cheating it isn't fun anymore. It is a bit annoying that this player has access too the encounter information and even the loot that they may be getting, but really, if you are running a pregenerated adventure, that's happens. Some people buy all the material, some people GM and play as an adventure, are all these GMs cheating? I have people in my group that are also GMs and that have some of the adventures, and instead of taking the mindset that they are cheating, I tweek the adventures a bit, I also assume that they will know some of the information and trust that they will not hurt the game.

Option of booting a player because he posted too much loot, pass, just fix the loot list and talk to him about maybe not reading ahead as a courtesy to you, or ask how far he has read and adjust accordingly. Changing die results, adding items to inventory, purposefully interpreting spells/effects wrong, those are harder to justify, but knowing too much is not always cheating.

Also if this is a friend, gamming buddy, decided if you want to keep them as such, if not, boot away, because if you don't trust them, why would they want to game with you.

[BigNorseWolf]

back in highschool, I was pretty sure they were looking over the dms screen. So at the end of the adventure the wizard gave them a box full of stuff he hadn't identified yet and said pick one.

Left the DMs guide open to the girdle of giant strength and went to the bathroom.

Came back, sure enough. They were fighting over the belt.

The minotaur, of course won the fight for it.

handed the other players the sealed and dated envelope with the list of what everything was, and they were laughing too hard to pass the note. Guy playing the Minotaur gets it last. Laughs...

"YOU )(#$*$ ()*#)($)(*#$...."

Girdle of femininity/masculinity.

Never needed a DM's screen again.

[JakeCWolf]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

back in highschool, I was pretty sure they were looking over the dms screen. So at the end of the adventure the wizard gave them a box full of stuff he hadn't identified yet and said pick one.

Left the DMs guide open to the girdle of giant strength and went to the bathroom.

Came back, sure enough. They were fighting over the belt.

The minotaur, of course won the fight for it.

handed the other players the sealed and dated envelope with the list of what everything was, and they were laughing too hard to pass the note. Guy playing the Minotaur gets it last. Laughs...

"YOU )(#$*$ ()*#)($)(*#$...."

Girdle of femininity/masculinity.

Never needed a DM's screen again.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Brilliant, just brilliant... Let me guess, he already put it on and you made it cursed so it can't be taken off, right? Please say you did that!

[Lincoln Hills]

MageHunter wrote:

...1st level campaign where the GM would threaten to send a Froghemoth after us. I normally use Tarrasques.

Make it doubly memorable by delivering the Tarrasque through orbital insertion.

What I find particularly ludicrous about the player's excuse is that it's really, really uncommon for a group of PCs to achieve 100% treasure recovery on a dungeon. People miss rooms, overlook hidden compartments, monsters run away. If I were trying to 'help' or 'make things easy' I'd definitely keep a loot list, but I wouldn't be downloading any files to make sure 'the GM didn't forget any loot'.

I suppose you could apologize to the honest players, explain the next two adventures will have no treasure at all, and explain that you're just following wealth-by-level guidelines after Player A 'made a clerical error', but why pussyfoot around? Tell him he didn't 'help', and if he wants to 'help' and stay in the group he'll delete this bogus list and employ the list of items legitimately acquired. Which is a shame because he won't get to include the twin sun blades you had tucked in an extra, unofficial room.

[gnomersy]

Lincoln Hills wrote:

MageHunter wrote:

...1st level campaign where the GM would threaten to send a Froghemoth after us. I normally use Tarrasques.

Make it doubly memorable by delivering the Tarrasque through orbital insertion.

What I find particularly ludicrous about the player's excuse is that it's really, really uncommon for a group of PCs to achieve 100% treasure recovery on a dungeon. People miss rooms, overlook hidden compartments, monsters run away. If I were trying to 'help' or 'make things easy' I'd definitely keep a loot list, but I wouldn't be downloading any files to make sure 'the GM didn't forget any loot'.

I suppose you could apologize to the honest players, explain the next two adventures will have no treasure at all, and explain that you're just following wealth-by-level guidelines after Player A 'made a clerical error', but why pussyfoot around? Tell him he didn't 'help', and if he wants to 'help' and stay in the group he'll delete this bogus list and employ the list of items legitimately acquired. Which is a shame because he won't get to include the twin sun blades you had tucked in an extra, unofficial room.

Eh we honestly have no idea what's going on based on the OP's statements the player made a loot list including all the loot from the AP and claims it was permitted but we don't necessarily know what that list was for. For example this could have easily been a preliminary step to printing out loot flashcards so that the DM could hand them out whenever they were found. Alternatively he could have been trying to check to see what the players had found vs what they had bought because of how the party dealt with loot splitting when they sell items. This issue could have much more to it than we know based on the tiny bit of information we received.

Was this his personal inventory list that magically sprouted new items they never found or is the cheating in question just him having foreknowledge of the AP because he looked through the AP to write up a loot list?

Mind you, you still run into the guy having read the AP issue but that's not really a huge deal since there are plenty of times you have a player who's either played or GM'd an AP before and knows more than they ought to.

As far as how you deal with it I personally think that just following an AP straight out of the book is always a bad call. It's the easiest way to GM but it means the encounters are always balanced wrong for your party, the loot may or may not be any good for them, there could be roleplaying problems that shouldn't come up if you built the encounters, and you run into cheating/knowledge issues like this.

[RedDogMT]

Devilkiller wrote:

DM screens are a crutch of the weak. The DM shouldn't hide his or her mighty dice behind a screen. Roll them on the table for everybody to see and fear!

I totally disagree with you. If you feel you HAVE TO roll in from of players, you lack the confidence that your players trust you. Earn and keep player trust and you you can have a fantastic game.

[KenderKin]

DM screen is for me long gone I only game via play by post anymore. Dice rolls are all done by the dice roller.

[BigNorseWolf]

JakeCWolf wrote:

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Brilliant, just brilliant... Let me guess, he already put it on and you made it cursed so it can't be taken off, right? Please say you did that!

Of course!

[MageHunter]

RedDogMT wrote:

Devilkiller wrote:

DM screens are a crutch of the weak. The DM shouldn't hide his or her mighty dice behind a screen. Roll them on the table for everybody to see and fear!

I totally disagree with you. If you feel you HAVE TO roll in from of players, you lack the confidence that your players trust you. Earn and keep player trust and you you can have a fantastic game.

I GM for rookie players, so I like to pull the punches when they mess up. For the more experienced players on the other hand... Regardless for any case your group should decide what's fun, and agree beforehand how much deus ex machina they want.

[Apple Fetish]

Pizza Lord wrote:

...but his actions we're just too poisonous to keep (and the more we tried to work around it the more brazen or entitled he felt.)

This has been the way of every instance of such behavior that I have experienced in the past. People have different ideas on what is "fun" in gaming. So I understand that there would be those who defend such as "not that bad"; Experience tells me, however, that there will be no way for you to truly change a player's behavior...nor should you try. You simply decide if such a thing is more disruption in the game that you are DMing than you are willing to allow, if so...politely boot.

He should be given the opportunity to find a group with the play style that he prefers.

[justaworm]

You cannot assume players haven't read through a module/AP before playing. Unless you specifically requested players that hadn't already read it, and also promised they wouldn't, the main issue is just restoring trust. Players should be able to keep the knowledge to themselves though and away from their character.

If he is a good player and you enjoy playing with him, then work it out like adults, or at least how adults should act and not how many actually do.

To me, this is a pretty minor offense to be kicked out of a group over. Ensure that player will not in any way reveal anything about what is coming up. Changing some of the major encounters is also kind of fun anyway, so go for it!

[GM 1990]

RedDogMT wrote:

Devilkiller wrote:

DM screens are a crutch of the weak. The DM shouldn't hide his or her mighty dice behind a screen. Roll them on the table for everybody to see and fear!

I totally disagree with you. If you feel you HAVE TO roll in from of players, you lack the confidence that your players trust you. Earn and keep player trust and you you can have a fantastic game.

I've always used the screen more to keep my notes, maps and other things hidden from players as well.

I run a game and play in my son's on alternating weeks; I don't want to know what he's cooking up back there or it would be less enjoyable for me.

Also the screen can keep your dice from flying all over the place. to speed up combat I have a few sets of paired d20 and dX for damage, so I can toss a 2 fisted pile into the corner of the screen and not have dice across the whole battle mat.

I've never looked at it as a trust issue, but I've always played with family or close friends.

[Saldiven]

Devilkiller wrote:

@J-Bone - Somebody looking in the AP book is clearly out of bounds. How would you feel about a player who doesn't look on the SRD during combat but simply remembers the capabilities of most monsters from experience as a DM?

I'd like to think that most players who have DM'd would resist the temptation to metagame like that.

For example, I'm playing in a campaign for the first time in years (I've been DM'ing for 5 straight years), and we heard a rumor that we were going to run into a certain monster that had a fairly significant weakness. I remembered the weakness from being a DM, but didn't want to tell the characters who were taking a quick run back to town to pick up X and Y while they were there. So, I asked the GM if I could make the appropriate knowledge check to see what my character remembered about that type of creature. If I passed and got the appropriate info, I'd pass it on to the party; if I failed, I would hold my peace.

I personally believe that players should leave what they know on the shelf and focus on what their characters know. One of the difficulties in role playing is managing that dichotomy.

[hasteroth]

I've had to kick players out of my games in the past. It depends on the group and the player really... but sometimes it isn't a pleasant experience at all to kick someone. I really hated kicking people out and I agonized even over the players I was SURE needed to be kicked out.

One player I booted that I was certain needed to be kicked... was booted mostly by popular vote, because he was generally unpleasant to be around and had a penchant for perverted comments that made the two female players in the group uncomfortable. He had been warned several times before we kicked him, just to give him a chance to change... but he didn't and he had an absolute meltdown when we kicked him out. It felt like a nasty breakup with an emotionally abusive partner. Ultimately I felt I made the right decision there, but it took weeks of trying to avoid kicking him.

Another time a player was booted by popular request from players. He wasn't a bad person, but he interrupted other players far too often... Slowed down the game to a crawl with his incessant rants, and tended to verbally dominate the game. He received a couple warnings and prods towards changing, there was a long talk I had with him and a couple players, we all liked him and didn't want to boot him if he could change... But he wasn't able to and after months of trying to fix things with him we ended up kicking him out. To make matters worse, he was my roommate. But after the initial animosity he felt over being kicked, he recovered and things worked out. This group ultimately collapsed though due to unrelated personal issues between some of the players (and between one player and myself).

I guess my point is, that kicking people can be really really hard. Circumstances vary from group to group and player to player... I never dealt with cheating but I'm of the opinion that the player should be warned that if any signs of meta-knowledge in the rest of the game appear while he is playing... that he will be booted. And he should also be warned that if he is caught even glancing at the modules again, he'll be booted. I wouldn't shoulder any more work for yourself, but I'd personally give him the benefit of the doubt in this case, assuming he's otherwise a good and friendly player.

[hasteroth]

Saldiven wrote:

I personally believe that players should leave what they know on the shelf and focus on what their characters know. One of the difficulties in role playing is managing that dichotomy.

A common thing here is a player who has fought an enemy before and knows its stats (or has GM'd the enemy before) and has difficulty separating this meta-knowledge from their character. This happens a LOT in PFS. An example being one time I saw a player who didn't want to attack a Skeleton with his Scimitar because he knew they had DR Bludgeoning (and he had no Bludgeoning weapon), but he had already failed his knowledge check to identify them (and being level 1, hadn't fought them before). But the DM told him he had to act based on his character's knowledge. He got so frustrated by being unable to separate meta-knowledge from character knowledge that he actually left the game and I hadn't seen him since.

Unfortunately there are a LOT of players like the aforementioned one who can't successfully leave their meta-knowledge behind when playing the game.

[Devilkiller]

@RedDogMT - If the players can trust you then why would you hide the glory of your dice rolls from them? Let them gaze upon the nat 20s and despair! Thou shalt not fudge!

@Saldiven - There's certainly a difference between players having metagame knowledge and using metagame knowledge. Sometimes it is tough to figure out what a character "should" know though, and sometimes it might be tough to judge whether people are using player knowledge in character or the PC just happened to cast an appropriate spell. I mean, if you have 0 ranks in Knowledge (Planes) you probably shouldn't feel compelled to always cast Lightning Bolt at demons and Fireball at devils, but you also probably shouldn't always do the reverse. That said, different groups feel differently about players who perform actions which they know to be useless or counterproductive.

[Saldiven]

hasteroth wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

I personally believe that players should leave what they know on the shelf and focus on what their characters know. One of the difficulties in role playing is managing that dichotomy.

Unfortunately there are a LOT of players like the aforementioned one who can't successfully leave their meta-knowledge behind when playing the game.

I agree. The ideal is to completely separate player/character knowledge, but that can be difficult to do. I guess a GM can't expect all players to have that complete separation, but does have to decided where on the spectrum that GM is comfortable with the players operating. In the example you gave, I completely understand the GM's position and feel a bit sad about the player's reaction. It seems a bit extreme.

[GM 1990]

hasteroth wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

I personally believe that players should leave what they know on the shelf and focus on what their characters know. One of the difficulties in role playing is managing that dichotomy.

A common thing here is a player who has fought an enemy before and knows its stats (or has GM'd the enemy before) and has difficulty separating this meta-knowledge from their character. This happens a LOT in PFS. An example being one time I saw a player who didn't want to attack a Skeleton with his Scimitar because he knew they had DR Bludgeoning (and he had no Bludgeoning weapon), but he had already failed his knowledge check to identify them (and being level 1, hadn't fought them before). But the DM told him he had to act based on his character's knowledge. He got so frustrated by being unable to separate meta-knowledge from character knowledge that he actually left the game and I hadn't seen him since.

Unfortunately there are a LOT of players like the aforementioned one who can't successfully leave their meta-knowledge behind when playing the game.

My children read the Bestiary cover to cover many times since it arrived last year. I've cautioned them about meta-gaming, and they generally do a pretty good job once I point out they're acting in a way their PC wouldn't have knowledge of. But, this recently bit them in the tail.

Monster was a ghast that had come up out a swamp, but as I described the flesh and weeds hanging off the bones and body, my son got it in his mind that it must be a "skeleton", and his fighter decided to sheath his +1 longsword and instead use shield bash (considering his Focus-longsword, a much worse potential damage output). Even after I asked him out of character, "why" he wasn't using his best weapon against something his PC had never fought he tried giving some sheepish hand-waving reason. So....after taking significantly longer to kill these things than they would have we all had a good laugh when I told them all it hadn't had DR/bludgeoning, so that should be a lesson about meta-gaming.

[KujakuDM]

Ask them to stop.

If they don't stop ask yourself, "Is everyone having fun?"

Is the answer to that No.

Handle it like an adult and either stop playing with them or find a new group.

No gaming is better than bad gaming.

[Grond]

Some of the responses in this thread are interesting. How can anyone consider players reading a module/AP in advance cheating? Or going to a forum to look for help on how to build a character for it? I mean seriously you don't think people will go out and simply read it for themselves in a post internet world?

As long as people don't let their OOC knowledge flavor their IC knowledge what's the harm?

[Bofor]

The group I'm in plays under the premise that less metagaming means more fun. Its a role playing game. We want uncertainty and the challenges that it presents. The GM spends a lot of time crafting a story, but leaves plenty of margins to allow the players to dictate how it all ends. If everything had well defined parameters, we might as well be playing an over-the-board miniature game (which we all enjoy).
Another premise is that OOC and IC knowledge cannot be entirely separated. We understand that a certain level of metagaming is inevitable, and allowances are made, but we endeavor to keep it at a minimum. Someone who would circumvent these premises by reading an AP is not someone who would be welcome at our table.

As an aside, our GMs use Pre-fab adventures more as a guide than as a set in stone plot line. Anyone who tried to claim x, y or z treasure because it was in the book, would soon find that the Knights of Ozem are asking for help to pay for the war against the local lich lord. Trust me, in our world, you don't lightly ignore a call for charity from the KoO.

[Charon's Little Helper]

While I'd agree that it was in poor taste (assuming that he DID read the whole thing rather than just the items) I don't think that it rises to the level of cheating. Especially since you admit that you might have given him permission.

Ask him not to do so in the future. Maybe watch a bit closely, and only then do something else about it.

I actually find it interesting how grumpy people on here are about it. I've seen less hostile feedback when discussing someone who cheats on his dice rolls. (Which is actually cheating.) Based on the responses, I'm guessing that many posters didn't read past the title.

[swoosh]

The Sword wrote:

Boot, unless he is good friends with the others and it will cause you problems in the long run. Without trust there is nothing.

I'm kind of surprised this is the first thing people are jumping to considering how minor this issue seems to be and how the player in question seems to think he had your permission to do it. Just ask him not to. If problems persist, then look at other options.