Apple Fetish's page

It really is a tough situation to be in...when you don't want solutions that work, or to know where things went wrong.

You want to play by the rules with your Cleric and the AP, but give your characters free rein with abusing (maybe a strong word as it is done in fun) mechanics for "more fun"... It isn't an issue of realism vs magic/fun, it is about dealing with the Frankenstein's monster you made. Just let the players obliterate everything with little to no effort...that is what they built their characters for.

Honestly...if the Cleric can scry, why is she even staying? She should have her minions disguise her tactical retreat.

There is only one solution to this problem.

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..
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Rocks fall, everyone dies.

You’ve painted yourself into a corner with this party.
Your entire party is well beyond its normal power level. You’ve let them get away with too much. They have from what it sounds like, the absolute optimal equipment for every encounter. For example: They all have fog-cutter lenses, they all have some sort of see invisibility, all their AC’s are through the roof, and everyone’s save is impossible to bypass.

I’d probably put your partys APL at about 3 higher than expected. All of this and you are not willing to change anything from the adventure.

Harsh reality here, but you might as well just pack it up and start over.

This seems to about sum it up... /agree

to the OP: Yeah, players should buy magic items that benefit them, but depending upon the scenario/campaign/AP, it might be over the top to make anything/everything available for purchase.

Player Face: "Greetings fine merchant! I am her to purchase 6 fog cutting lenses, 6 cloak of resistance, 6 [insert powerful stuff here and repeat]...

Fine Merchant: "Well if I had that...today would be your lucky day, and mine...but I don't. Let me show you what I do have..."

Play the game as you and the players wish...but if you find that the players are just obliterating everything, you might ask them (and yourself) if this is fun, if it is, keep going. If the majority find it isn't, then adjust accordingly.

That is about what I was thinking. Thanks!

I have a Hex Channeler that I play for healing fun. She has Quick Channel. Can I use Raven's Flight and Quick Channel on the same turn? For example: Beginning of my turn, I see someone is too far away for a channel heal and further than my little 20' moving Halfling hiney can get to...so I (swift action) Raven's Flight then fly 50' towards them then Channel?

Raven's Flight says you can only take 5' step, move, or withdraw actions on the turn that you cast it...Quick Channel says that you can channel as a move action. So would Quick Channel allow me to channel as a move action during Raven's Flight?

I know it isn't a very optimal use of spells/abilities. but thematically it fits my Hex Channeler and Raven's Flight adds some maneuverability to a very pudgy and slow Halfling.

Granted, a witch with their first hex at 4th level could be a bit painful.

Indeed. One day I may get over my penchant for building under-powered characters...

It looks as if I can take both the Ley Line Guardian and Hex Channeler Archetypes as they replace different class abilities.

Would that be correct? It would be for a PFS character. Thanks in advance for your input!

Some of the responses in this thread are interesting. How can anyone consider players reading a module/AP in advance cheating? Or going to a forum to look for help on how to build a character for it? I mean seriously you don't think people will go out and simply read it for themselves in a post internet world?

As long as people don't let their OOC knowledge flavor their IC knowledge what's the harm?

Just curious...if you tell a group of players that you are going to run them through [Insert Adventure Name Here] and one of them then reads that adventure, what do you call him/her? A real go-getter? An advanced planner? Upper management material? Head of his class? I mean seriously, you don't think that such doesn't affect the adventure?

To answer your question...I don't think that the majority of players would go read an adventure that their GM told them they were getting ready to run through. Some people...yes, but those are the kind of people that some GM's don't want screwing up the adventure for everyone else.

I specifically avoid reading any adventure path or module information... Why? Because I'm a player...not a GM...and I realize that you can never truly react the same way, or make the same choices you would make, once you know something. ...and I like that feeling of the unknown...of really placing myself in my character and figuring it out, of seeing the adventure untainted by meta-players. Does that mean that I wouldn't replay an adventure I have already played? Of course not...but I would be glad that the first time I got to play it I did so as it was intended...as you can never experience that twice.

...but his actions we're just too poisonous to keep (and the more we tried to work around it the more brazen or entitled he felt.)

This has been the way of every instance of such behavior that I have experienced in the past. People have different ideas on what is "fun" in gaming. So I understand that there would be those who defend such as "not that bad"; Experience tells me, however, that there will be no way for you to truly change a player's behavior...nor should you try. You simply decide if such a thing is more disruption in the game that you are DMing than you are willing to allow, if so...politely boot.

He should be given the opportunity to find a group with the play style that he prefers.

There are many good suggestions in this thread. I agree with the "ability score loss" vs save vs death...it gives an impending sense of impairment and doom that descends into death, vs death by single die roll. Also, making up "resource pools" or progress time tables from abilities, while kind of ad lib and not able to be pulled from a book, can add to the enjoyment and suspense of being forced, as a player, to deal with previously mundane tasks involved in survival situations.

There are many who enjoy "being a hero", and I can understand the enjoyment of such a game...however there is definitely something to be said for, and many players who prefer, a more challenging game, where you actually have a risk of failure. Survival themed games can add to that aspect...or as I prefer, every game can be a game of survival.

The feat lets you do the other. If your necromancer channeled to command undead he could then channel to turn undead and vice versa.

Got it! Thank you.

Necromancer is a wizard that took the necromancy school.

Hrm...ok. Thank you for that information; It seems at odds with the feat though, as the Necromancy Arcane School doesn't give channeling of negative energy, just channel for command/turn undead.

You cannot take versatile channeler on a Hex Channeler because that character fails to meet the prereqs for the feat.

Quote:

Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature, necromancer or neutrally aligned cleric (see below).

Thank you...it was the (see below) part that misled me. Maybe you can also tell me what supplement I can find the Necromancer class that is mentioned?

...oh, and the ability reading "...as a cleric" doesn't answer how "...as a cleric 2 levels lower" would affect a Hex Channeler as they are given extra dice for their channel by Hex choice, not gaining them through levels.

The channel works as a cleric. Says so in the ability.

However, that feat needs you to actually BE a cleric or a necromancer.

Ok...that's what I was wondering. The feat description does however have "...characters who have the channel energy class ability and have to make a choice to channel positive or negative energy at 1st level." in the full description and nothing referencing Cleric only in the Feat Summary table in the book, also, in what book is the class/archtype/prestige class Necromancer?

HeroLab seemed to think the prereqs were met, and let me make the build, but it seems to have let me make "illegal" combinations more than a few times.

So...would a Witch (Hex Channeler) be able to use Versatile Channeler? How would the "...as a Cleric 2 level lower..." play out? ...and if it would work, would that allow for leveling into the prestige class Envoy of Balance and subsequent use of Twinned Channeling as a non-cleric?

Thanks in advance for any help.

...oh...I forgot to add I wouldn't be in too much of a rush once I had those three. I do like using feats for Extra Arcane Exploit, but you don't need to front load too much IMO.

I would do Potent Magic before any other exploit...then Quick Study...then Dimensional Slide. Some would argue Quick Study for later, when you have a larger arsenal of spells, but I find that the ability it offers is a key element in versatility that distinguishes the Arcanist (or in this case Exploiter Wizard).

THIS. The Mystic Theurge is the best necromancer, period.

No it's not. Had two friends play a theurge with Necromancer theme and they suck. Spell variety is nice but you lose far too much in power splitting it with this Prestige class. One you lose the channel Mystic Theurge doesn't allow a Cleric's channel to level up after leaving cleric. Can't wear armor without taking feats for your arcane spells. This isn't opionion but two players playing this combination a few times trying to make them work. Both were very disappointed with the results.

While not a fan of the class the DeathWalker Witch is better long term then this combination.

It is an educated opinion based upon the attempts you witnessed...but never the less, an opinion.

To the OP...I agree with the Mystic Theurge route, but instead try Witch 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge X. ...and choose Hex Channeler for a Witch Archtype...and then choose to up your Witch channeling dice by spending hexes and additional hexes from feat selection of such. I'm currently playing a Witch(Hex Channeler)/Cleric/Mystic Theurge, and I had a hard time not letting myself make her a Necro due to the options available and the ridiculous amount of channels that I have available as a Hex Channeler / Cleric.

Oh god, I am so sick of these threads. Different people enjoy playing the game differently. Don't invalidate, fudge, or cheat to mitigate a player's build. Make sure the game offers a diversity of role playing options and encourage this minmaxed player to role play. Ask him to make sure everyone is having fun in combat and add extra combatants if he seems overpowered.

Don't specifically target him and his abilities unless the enemies would have reason to know to do this. Don't directly the universe towards ruining his fun. This sort of issue is so easy to work out with a little communication and not overreacting. The very fact that you entitled this thread "how to handle a min-maxer" is already a troubling sign. Your goal is, how can I make this fun and challenging. That's doable. Targeting the one guy is a huge mistake and poor GMing.

One could also argue that If you have 1 player with a vastly different goal and idea of fun for the game (min-max vs RP/story), then a GM should sometimes decide if that difference is too vast or difficult to bridge. It's easy to say "...make this fun and challenging.", and yes that should be the goal, but trying to make a game that everyone enjoys should not need to delve into arguing with a player repetitively, or trying to tone down a player to allow other to enjoy the game.

You are absolutely correct: Diverse play styles should be encouraged and fostered by the DM, but that applies to the players also... If you have one player dropping steaming turds in a game session, and being an obvious case of oil and water not mixing, then to advocate the DM accommodate that player so that they can have "fun" is not in the best interests of anyone at the table, including the one person so distinctively different. Of course I am talking of extremes...most people are able to see when their grandstanding is killing the rest of the tables fun...most people...

...He's the only min-maxer in the group...

...He only finds fun in combat...

You should be honest with him, and let him know that you are going to run the campaign a certain way, as you and 4/5 players want it that way. Then apologize for needing to ask him to either find a group that he would enjoy (one that fits his min-max play style), or to adopt the preferred play style of the group. You would be doing 5 players and one DM a favor by being this straightforward...as, unless he simply likes being a big fish in a little pond, he would have more fun with a group of similar players...and you owe it to the majority...and him.

You could ask him if he has ever had a desire to play a build that he might have thought of that would be fun to play, but that he hasn't as it wasn't "optimized" enough. If he seems sincere in wanting to try, let him, as sometimes min-maxers find odd combinations of class/ability interactions that aren't really overpowered number crunching, but are instead just weird and possibly fun situational builds. If he hesitates in any way, or if during the game session he starts powergaming...again apologize for not being the proper group for him, and go all Spock on him with "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.".

...Archibald Eldersneep Tenured Professor of the Necromatic Arts...

Would you mind if I appropriate this name for use on a future character?

The need for a cleric can be mitigated by care, planning, and tactics. ...and as many have said, the best "metagame" or "tactical" use of a cleric seldom uses in combat healing...

With that said...not everyone enjoys playing a game where challenge has been optimized out. It is enticing to make a character that makes best use of the "numbers", but people should feel empowered to play the character they want. This could mean a group with no cleric, or in the case of my current character: A Cleric/Witch (Hex Channeler)/Mystic Theurge who has quick channel. She is almost pacifistic, doing little else but healing in combat (4d6 30' AoE heal...x2 a round...at level 7!) but also buffs/debuffs or helps with crowd control.

Let them play the adventure without a Cleric...even if their poor tactics cause them to die, they may learn something.

Finagle's Law in action...do not try to fight it. It would only bring regret...

I've been a PC in The Curse of the Crimson Throne, one of 6 PCs and my "party" is full of such lone wolfs.

The campaign does a good job of bringing all the PCs together, but they just refuse to do basic party introduction things. NO ONE will tell anyone their names! Or each other their names, even though the GM is referring to them by their character names. I've repeatedly and respectfully asked how I should refer to them but they won't because "My character just isn't the sort to be so friendly".

Apparently giving their name requires an inalienable bond.

As they arrived one-by-one for the first meeting point I introduced myself "Hi, I'm John Smith..." and then of course they laughed like hyenas because I was repeating myself to the group chat with "hurr, Matt Damon" jokes even though in-character each was only hearing my introduction once.

When I refer to them by their character names they break character to say "You don't know what my character is called"

When I refer to them by their real person names they say "keep it role play"

When I refer to them by how they appear or act (non pejoratively like "cloaked fighter") they object to that characterisation, either out of character or directly threatening my character under pretext of "my character would be quick to anger over things like that".

Every time I tried to raise it gently with "I didn't catch your name?" they'd be reply snidely with words to effect of "that's because I didn't give my name". They are brooding in corners, constantly using stealth to hide from the rest of the group even though it's VERY well established we have a common cause. Refuse to share even the basics of their back story. It got weird like when we met the big bad one would cry out "What did you do with my sister!" a complete surprise.

Even though I'd asked earlier what beef that character had with the big bad. This was even after we'd committed to raid his headquarters. We've been through two combats and STILL they won't even tell me their names or...

I always find it easiest to just give players the game that they are making...meaning, make clear distinctions between the words you say being OOC, or RP, and let the story become what it will. Example: Player 1, 2, and 3 all want to be "shadowy mysterious figures" who refuse to offer their name, when approached for it through RP...no worries, have your character assign them names, even so simple as "nameless one", "nameless two"...and hold fast to the RP that develops. Don't let one of the players weasel out with "my character wouldn't like to be called that"...keep it RP and call their bluff "Well fine...I wouldn't want to be called such either, but since you refuse to offer such a simple thing as even a made up name, I will call you "Ted"". Sometimes character concepts don't mesh well with others, the Paladin in the group of morally challenged adventurers...and that is fine; It adds opportunities for both RP and for story growth beyond the scenario A to scenario B path. As long as the players are ok with the tension and are mature enough to understand that if they are wanting and determined to play a certain character concept, they may need to pay the piper and be willing to deal with the problems that they are causing. If the player doesn't understand that their character being a lone wolf sociopath with no common goals or desire to engage even the slightest bit socially with the group is a huge problem...well then you have found out where the issue lies.

Character concepts don't need to mesh perfectly to have an enjoyable game...but a player being unwilling to own up to the actions they are making their character do...and being unwilling to accept that affects how the story plays out, will absolutely kill enjoyment. Not saying that is what is happening, but if OOC conversations about the odd events so far all devolve into "well that's what my character would do", then let them do "that", and let it affect the game as it should. It could make for an adventure that ends quickly...and maybe the players will learn to "play nice" for the next adventure path.

So, I recently came across a GM saying that in his (admittedly limited) experience it is virtually impossible to disengage in combat once engaged and as there are already rules for casting in melee, he sees no need for the 5' step rule...

It seems that he doesn't understand the uses of the 5' step, and how it can lend depth and options to combat. He shouldn't be so willing to let his inability to "see a need for [something]" limit the game play of others...especially when it is a pretty basic part of the rules. The DM however can do as he wishes...but that requires finding people who are willing to play the game stripped of the things he doesn't feel are necessary.

The best solution would be for him to experience a game session that uses the 5' step, with people who know how to use the 5' step.

Thank you! ...and sorry for such a simple seeming question. Trying to decide on a PFS character, and I think I'm almost there!

Say I'm a first level Arcanist with the Potent Magic Exploit, and that as a trait I have Magic Lineage (Snapdragon Fireworks) and as a feat I have Extend Spell.

If I were to use Potent Magic to up my caster level, and then cast a Snapdragon Fireworks that has been Extended...would this really give me a 6 round Snapdragon Fireworks at 1st level?! ...or would it not stack like that?

...and thanks for any advice and help.

Try the Pathfinder Society Online Collective

Sweeeeet! Thank you. I'll see what I can find there.

=( Ok...I guess the second bloodline will need to be Starsoul or Boreal.

One a related note...I signed up for Roll20 and am struggling through learning it. Would anyone be able to point me to a beginner friendly source for playing Pathfinder (specifically PFS) using it? I can't help but think there is a better repository of new player friendly information for such than I am currently wading through. ...or possibly a way to find a Roll20 game that is new player friendly? (New to Roll20...I almost have a decent understanding of Pathfinder!)

...and thank you all so much for the rules clarifications!

I apologize for asking what I should be able to determine by reading the resource material and "rules". I think I have determined that it is acceptable, but I just want to be sure before I try to find a PFS game with this character.

Crossblooded Sorcerer: Marid/Void-Touched. She would be a Halfling, with the Fleet of Foot racial trait. Her feats would be Rime Spell. Her traits would be Magic Lineage (Snapdragon Fireworks) and Master of Pentacles.

Mechanics wise, She would use the Marid ability to turn Snapdragon Fireworks into a cold descriptor spell with the Rime Spell metamagic applied so that she could start doing this from level 1. Later she would use Evocations to silence casters while doing damage.

Roleplaying wise, to be determined.

Hey! I as wondering if Necromantic Affinity caused the character with it to also take damage from positive energy channels and heal from negative energy channels? It seems to infer would be that way, but doesn't state such absolutely.

Looking for Ratfolk and/or Goblin.

I'm new to PFS, so I don't have any boons to trade, but from what I can infer from reading this thread, it is acceptable to trade gifted Paizo products. If this isn't the case, I apologize. If it is acceptable practice, and someone is willing to trade, let me know!

Thanks!

If no one points out when something you do is inconvenient, silly, ineffective, etc... then how do you expect to learn?

Absolutely true...but I prefer it takes the form of "in character". My character wouldn't care what is inconvenient for you or what you find "silly", as a player, but she could be convinced by your character.

I'm looking forward to my first PFS game this weekend...the only thing that I'm really worried about is that it will be mostly metagaming, with little to no character investment or story involvement. I hope I am wrong, as it seems that metagaming would be the most likely source of an "experienced" player being upset with a new player unwilling to engage in such more than is necessary.

Am I correct in that a 1st level Sorcerer, with Magical Lineage (Magic Missile) along with the Toppling Spell feat, would be able to cast Toppling Magic Missiles at level 1? The Magic Missiles would be +1 level for the Toppling, so would need a level two slot, but the Magical Lineage would reduce the meta magic feat cost by one level, so would they be able to be cast with the 1st level slots?

Hello! I was hoping that someone could help with a rules clarification. On the Bloodline Arcana for Void-Touched it mentions that a failed save on an evocation will silence the subject for 1 round. I am assuming that this means an evocation spell that never offers a save, such as Magic Missle, will NOT get to apply that silence and that the silence can only be applied by a spell which offers a save that can be failed.

Would that be correct?

I'm very interested in testing this!

AppleFetish wrote:

...any tips on character creation?

...The tenets of the Pathfinder Society are Explore, Report, Cooperate!

Build a character that is prepared to do that.

The Pathfinder Society is a gang, er, I mean group, of adventurer-explorers. You don't really know who will be in your party from one table to another, so you want to be able to fill a variety of roles...

...Have fun! :)

I like that! Thank you, very much!

Welcome to PFS! :)

You can look up events on the Events page.

It looks like there are four regular game days in your area:
Sat: Common Ground Games
Sat: Area 51
Sat: Madness Comics
Sun: Y2 Komics

You can also contact the Venture Officers for your area. They are Stephen Ross (Venture Captain) and Kevin Willis (Venture Lieutenant).

You can read more about the particulars of Pathfinder Society in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. (Your Venture Officers' email addresses will be in there also.) Here are some quick clarifications:

1. There are seasons, and each season has an overarching metaplot, but the scenarios (the word we use to describe these short adventures) are episodic (like a TV show). For the most part, you can play them in any order you want. They are relatively independent of each other. You can even play a scenario from season 6 (our current season) one day, then a scenario from season 4 the next day, and so on.

2. Most local events are weekly game days. Even though you will mostly see the same faces week after week at these events, the design of organized play allows you to take your character from one event to another event elsewhere in the world and continue their adventures.

Lastly, a warning. PFS is great, but it is not the same as a home game. There is often a culture shock of sorts for people who are used to home games when they move into organized play. Home games can do things that organized play cannot, and vice-versa. The biggest disappointments I see players experience originate from wanting PFS to be like their home game, when it simply cannot be. They are different beasts, but they are both great fun in their own ways. :)

Explore, Report, and Cooperate!

Thank you so very much! I have downloaded the Organized Play thingy and am checking it out so I can make sure I make a "legal" character.

I expect the play to be different from a home game. I'm not sure if what I am expecting (metagaming, min/maxing, munchkins, and powergaming) is going to be prevalent, but I'm looking forward to whatever it is. I can enjoy role playing and PnP gaming in different flavors...so it will be all good. I am sure there will many memorable experiences that it will be enjoyed and fun people met.

I'll contact those peeps and see what my next step is. Thank you again!

...any tips on character creation?

Hello. I apologize if this is the wrong forum for posting this question, but maybe someone can help me out.

Where would I find out about joining in on PFS games in my area? I have a wonderful long term home game that I play in on Saturday evenings, but would like to add some more game time where I could explore playing different characters that I have ideas for. From what I have read PFS is an organized play format where I create a character and play them out for the "season" through a series of pre-set adventures? Is that correct? I am also assuming that there are local places where these groups meet and play (I am in Dallas, Texas and I would imagine that Madness Comics in Plano, Texas is a meeting place). Are the game groups static? ...or do people just meet and form groups and play?

Sorry for the random newb questions. I'm a long time PnP role player, but this organized stuff is new to me. Any advice that someone could give on PFS play would be welcomed. Not just who to contact or where to go, but game advice also.

Thank you! We're looking for a normal Pathfinder group, though the card game does sound interesting. Venture Captain...Lieutenant? I'm not familiar with these terms, but are these people who would know where a game might possibly be available? I would hate to email them if they are just associated with the card game.

In Plano, Madness Games & Comics has a group doing the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game organized play (reachable at PACG.at.MadnessComics@gmail.com). The PFS Venture-Captain in the DFW area is Jonathan Cary (DFWVentureCaptain@gmail.com); Charles Davis (cedavis1092@att.net) is the DFW Venture-Lieutenant, and Stephen Ross (azothath@gmail.com) is the Fort Worth Venture-Lieutenant. Good luck!

(Disclaimer: I live nowhere near Texas, but I saw your post and checked the Pathfinder Society events links for you.)

Hey! Two players, new to Pathfinder, looking for a game in the Dallas/Plano area. Weekends or evenings would be best. Thanks!

Would there be a better spot to look for a Pathfinder group in our area?

Hey! Two players, new to Pathfinder, looking for a game in the Dallas/Plano area. Weekends or evenings would be best. Thanks!