So... now that Jingasa is gone... *sigh*
To be fair it likely was too cheap. But it is a completely different item now. I don't want to spend a bunch of time complaining about the change as it will do no good. In an effort to look forward constructively my most current concern is where to get a luck bonus to AC from now?
To my knowledge, there is no other luck bonus to AC as an item.
Yeah, I am coming up short too. Its too bad. I feel like changing the price and limiting the crit ability would have been a fine way to nerf it. However, removing a player's ability to obtain a luck bonus to AC at all... that is the most extreme change in my mind.
I mostly agree. How would you price the old Jingasa?
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Yeah... I mostly think that the crit part of Jingasa should probably never have existed at all. I can understand why they wanted to errata it. But the rules change doesn't fit crunch or fluff. I mean, it was meant to be fortunate which translates to granting a Luck bonus. Deflection isn't "fortunate". Luck is.
As for pricing, per this table a luck bonus is Bonus squared x 2,500 gp. So, 5k. As far as that once ever ability... it isn't worth much. In the current incarnation they value it at 1,000gp which I feel is high. I would say it would be worth closer to 500gp. I personally value it at far less especially because you cannot upgrade a Jingasa to a +2 version like you can a Ring of Protection.
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@Lune
They actually value the one-time ability to negate one critical hit/SA at 2000 gp, since the deflection bonus is 2000 and a 1.5 multiplier is added to one of the two abilities.
While it might be bad in comparison to the previous version, I actually think that it is a fair price of the one-time ability. It has the potential to save your life after all.
@Olaf the Holy
The Luck bonus to AC has a price of 2500 gp according to the Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values table, so 8000 gp might be too much. And the Luckstone (now Stone of Good Luck) has a 2x multiplier because it is slotless.
But yeah, Fate's Favored is the main problem.
*****
I mostly agree. How would you price the old Jingasa?
2000 x 1.5 for the AC bonus (minor abilities has a price increase of 50% on slotted items).
+
10,000 for the ability to negate one critical hit/SA once per day (What the devs thinks the one-time use is worth multiplied with 5.)
= 13,000 gp
Edit: Forgot that deflection bonus to AC is 2000, not 2500 gp. Changed this.
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If you're looking for crit negation, maybe you're better off with the Buffering Cap.
Hmm
Lyric the Singing Paladin: Nah, I saw it. I liked it. Very creative and says what a lot of us are thinking. Also, I just put together that you are Hmm. :)
Olaf the Holy: That is not accurate. See the link above.
Wonderstell: I already shared the same link above, as stated. If the base value for the +1 Deflection is 2,000gp (Bonus squared x 2,000 gp) and it has multiple different abilities (Multiply lower item cost by 1.5) then you have to decide what the "lower item cost" is. Which one are you suggesting is the "lower item cost"? The Deflection bonus or the one time ability?
We know what the Dev's think because they priced the item at 5,000gp. But what do YOU think?
Hmm: Actually, what I am most looking for is an item that gives a Luck bonus to AC.
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Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (New version), Total Cost: 5000 gp.
Number of abilities: 2 (AC Bonus and One-Time crit negation)
Price increase of the lower item cost: 1.5
Therefore, if Y is lower item cost and X is higher item cost:
X + 1.5Y = 5000
*****
We know the price of one of the two abilities. 2000 gp for the deflection bonus. If we assume the Deflection bonus is the higher item cost, then
2000 + 1.5Y = 5000
1.5Y = 5000 - 2000
1.5Y = 3000
Y = 2000
Lower item ability cost is equal to 2000. (One-Time Crit negation effect = 2000)
*****
If we assume the Deflection bonus is the lower item cost, then
X + 1.5*2000 = 5000
X + 3000 = 5000
X = 5000 - 3000
X = 2000
Higher item ability cost is equal to 2000. (One-Time Crit negation effect = 2000)
*****
As you can see, we get the same result from both assumptions, but that is simply because X = Y.
...That's what I think?
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Wow, that's a huge nerf. +1 deflection now and a one time use on the crit ability. It's not even as good as the buffering cap now imo.
So what's the alternative for crit protection? Buffering cap?
Can someone link me a list of all of the other nerfs?
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I might buy the Jingasa for high-level magic item crafters. But only since the price doesn't decrease when you have used the crit negation ability.
Make one -> Use the Crit Negation -> Sell it -> Create another
Wait an entire day to use it again...
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Wow, that's a huge nerf. +1 deflection now and a one time use on the crit ability. It's not even as good as the buffering cap now imo.
So what's the alternative for crit protection? Buffering cap?
Can someone link me a list of all of the other nerfs?
linky
The most drastical are Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Quick Runner's Shirt, the Brawling enchantment, and the Jingasa.
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I guess, if you have 2 rings you really want, you might want the jingasa, but I can't thing of 2 rings to get instead (3 if you get that necklace that grants extra ring slot).
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Wonderstell: You are starting with the knowledge that the item price is 5,000gp. What I was asking is for you to NOT start with that assumption. Show the math behind how YOU would price it. Deflection bonus is codified, so is having multiple different abilities. The crit part of it is not. What gold peice value do you put on that ability?
Azten: One time EVER. Not once per day. Ever.
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I guess, if you have 2 rings you really want, you might want the jingasa, but I can't thing of 2 rings to get instead (3 if you get that necklace that grants extra ring slot).
Meridian Belt for two more and you can always make magic tattoo versions of the rings to bypass the normal limits anyway. A tattoo version of a ring of defense +1 is cheaper that the Jingasa...
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Wonderstell: You are starting with the knowledge that the item price is 5,000gp. What I was asking is for you to NOT start with that assumption. Show the math behind how YOU would price it. Deflection bonus is codified, so is having multiple different abilities. The crit part of it is not. What gold peice value do you put on that ability?
Well, I was referring to how you said "they" value it at 1,000 gp, while the devs actually value it at 2,000 gp.
In the current incarnation they value it at 1,000gp which I feel is high. I would say it would be worth closer to 500gp. I personally value it at far less especially because you cannot upgrade a Jingasa to a +2 version like you can a Ring of Protection.
*****
In my opinion, 2,000 gp for a one-time ability of negating a crit is a bit on the high side, but still not far off the mark.
If I compare the Jingasa with the First Aid Gloves' ability to cast Breath of Life twice, then the price seems quite fair.
The Jingasa has potential which depends on when you use it. If you negate the crit which would have brought you down, then you have cheated death for the price of 2,000 gp. (Breath of Life is 2,250 gp)
The difference between the two is that Breath of Life has a more general use, but the Jingasa can prevent the situation instead of simply fixing it. The catch is that you can only use it with criticals, and on yourself.
Weighing the advantages against the disavantages leaves me to believe that a One-time Crit negating effect should have a price of 1500-2500 gp. (Placing it in the same price-zone as Aegis of Recovery and First Aid gloves).
*****
The MAJOR difference between the Jingasa and other death-avoiding items is that the Jingasa doesn't crumble to dust/disappear.
The more I think about it, the more odd it becomes. The Jingasa is actually a good item for high level crafters (as mentioned before), since it doesn't drop in price after you use the one-time ability.
Seriously, just craft 5 of them, use them up and sell them. You don't lose anything but time.
So, yeah. I'm actually not salty at all about the new Jingasa. But it has a niche market now, unfortunately.
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Funny that the Jingasa is now easily replaced by a 2k item and leave you enough cash to get something else useful, its not like Sneak attacks are that common either.
Of all of the choices they could have done to tune it down like price tag or anything they went with just nerfing it to the point its a one-shot 5k ring of protection... I rather spend my cash on something else, like a +2 armor instead.
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IMO, the crit/SA negation looks like a 3k talisman for the once ever functionality. I put a slight premium on it because I think it's a better fit in the neck slot as a talisman, where you can also pair it with Life's Breath and Good Fortune.
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IMO, the crit/SA negation looks like a 3k talisman for the once ever functionality. I put a slight premium on it because I think it's a better fit in the neck slot as a talisman, where you can also pair it with Life's Breath and Good Fortune.
They should have made it an entirely 1 use item, if for no reason that ease of use. The +1 cooking pot is dead weight.
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It's not even fortunate anymore, and anyone that *finds* one will probably not get one with the second use still functional.
More of an Uplifting Primer of the Swindled Guardsman now.
Kinda like buying a car with a 50% chance of it having an airbag. The time when you find it out if it actually has one is the time when you absolutely need one.
Not at all mourning the death of the Jingasa but keeping this on topic a quick search of Archives of Nethys reveals that there are indeed other ways to get that luck bonus to AC.
Gunfighter's Poncho gives a +2 luck bonus to touch AC. It seems to be untouched by the errata. There may be other options that may help flat footed AC but I didn't feel like looking though the 13 entries the search turned up after it was evident that not all of them were helpful.
...
Honestly, they just shouldn't have made the Fate's Favored trait. Now you get Sacred Tattooed half-orcs with Jingasas and Luckstones.The combination is just a little too good, although the individual items and racial traits were probably fine.
I agree. I never used the Jingasa, but it seemed like a perfectly reasonable item by itself. Fate's Favored seems like the problem to me. If they had just made Fate's Favored have a limited use, say one minute per day, I think that would have solved more problems than gutting the Jingasa.
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Mark commented that there's apparently too many ways to get little AC bonuses. The ioun stone, this, etc... And while each isn't a problem, getting all of them puts you a good amount ahead of the expected AC curve.
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Azten: One time EVER. Not once per day. Ever.
For some reason I'd thought they'd added a 24 hour attunement period to it like they did the Quick Runner's Shirt.
Azten: One time EVER. Not once per day. Ever.For some reason I'd thought they'd added a 24 hour attunement period to it like they did the Quick Runner's Shirt.
a 24 hour atunement and once ever aren't mutually exclusive, it could have both to keep a high level character from swapping out jingasas every fight.
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Mark commented that there's apparently too many ways to get little AC bonuses. The ioun stone, this, etc... And while each isn't a problem, getting all of them puts you a good amount ahead of the expected AC curve.
Next up, let's prune back ways for casters to up their spell DCs. While each isn't a problem, getting all of them puts you a good amount ahead of the expected save DC curve. ;-)
Though to be fair, they also did hit the Staff of the Master with the nerfbat.
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Mark commented that there's apparently too many ways to get little AC bonuses. The ioun stone, this, etc... And while each isn't a problem, getting all of them puts you a good amount ahead of the expected AC curve.
And behind in other places... Why can't player choices matter? They are making this game more boring with every release. Power creep? No, power sink.
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What if I were to pop in here and suggest that there is no real solution to be found in rules changes? The real problem is much bigger than the woes of one little hat, and it lies in the intangible culture that has developed, which is far more powerful than written rules - the problem in particular here appears to be, let's call it the "powerless power gamer" culture (or "slave to the beans," which I like even better), that spreads this doctrine of "The Numbers command me to take these character options, these items, etc to get the Perfect Number, therefore I MUST DO SO...or else I am surely *gasp*...STUPID!"
That's not what the game is about, folks. At all. Intelligence isn't about blind adherence to rules and making the biggest number possible, otherwise ENIAC would be smarter than all of us - it's about independent, creative decision-making, individualized and self-driven LEARNING rather than choosing to merely be passively TAUGHT, and being able to perceive and imagine those things that matter more than numbers, which are a means to an end, NOT the end in and of itself (if this sounds like I'm talking as much about the roots of the Real-World global political crisis as I am about Pathfinder, that's no accident - just as I don't believe it to be an accident that the mentality of the larger issue would infect the smaller; it brings me no joy to suggest that the notion of "escaping politics" appears to ultimately just be wishful thinking). This is a game with standards. It is NOT meant for the LCD. A certain level of individual maturity and ethics is expected, otherwise it doesn't work. The "nerf/errata" cycle (or whatever you might call it) can only be broken by people exercising personal restraint. It's not inevitable. We are not powerless. It is our choice.
As a veteran player (as in, "Generation Red-Box") I used to play with said, - those of you who've followed the trajectory of Internet culture for as long as I have (or much longer, in many cases) will recall the increasingly "Asmodean," shall we say, attempts by forum websites to codify expectations of behavior, until eventually came Paizo.com, and a miracle occurred: Rather than add more layers of EULAspeak, they said, "Don't Be A Jerk" because they knew that if people were honest with themselves, they'd know what that meant, and it would be enough. And lo - it worked (not perfectly, but a lot better than much of what had come immediately before). This, at least, gives me hope that this will turn out the same way (and from the looks of it, possibly soon!).
Ethics, man - ensuring the ongoing sustainable viability, and VIBRANCY, of the game is in your hands alone.
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What if I were to pop in here and suggest that there is no real solution to be found in rules changes? The real problem is much bigger than the woes of one little hat, and it lies in the intangible culture that has developed, which is far more powerful than written rules - the problem in particular here appears to be, let's call it the "powerless power gamer" culture (or "slave to the beans," which I like even better), that spreads this doctrine of "The Numbers command me to take these character options, these items, etc to get the Perfect Number, therefore I MUST DO SO...or else I am surely *gasp*...STUPID!"
That's not what the game is about, folks. At all. Intelligence isn't about blind adherence to rules and making the biggest number possible, otherwise ENIAC would be smarter than all of us - it's about independent, creative decision-making, individualized and self-driven LEARNING rather than choosing to merely be passively TAUGHT, and being able to perceive and imagine those things that matter more than numbers, which are a means to an end, NOT the end in and of itself (if this sounds like I'm talking as much about the roots of the Real-World global political crisis as I am about Pathfinder, that's no accident - just as I don't believe it to be an accident that the mentality of the larger issue would infect the smaller; it brings me no joy to suggest that the notion of "escaping politics" appears to ultimately just be wishful thinking). This is a game with standards. It is NOT meant for the LCD. A certain level of individual maturity and ethics is expected, otherwise it doesn't work. The "nerf/errata" cycle (or whatever you might call it) can only be broken by people exercising personal restraint. It's not inevitable. We are not powerless. It is our choice.
As a veteran player (as in, "Generation Red-Box") I used to play with said, - those of you who've followed the trajectory of Internet culture for as long as I have (or...
When the "perfect number" becomes disproportionate to being the most powerful character, or even type of character, I'll keep this advice in mind.
Until then...sorry, that's just how the game's meta is designed. If a character's power was disproportionate to whatever numbers you possessed, well...then these magic items and such don't have any sort of value.
Well not everybody plays this game to win.
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Well not everybody plays this game to win.
It's not about winning. It's about being able to accurately portray character concepts for whatever gaming that I see fit. And in a lot of people's minds, that is winning.
If I want to portray someone who is strong enough, extremely weak, or who specializes in X subject, but I cannot portray that level of power, or that type of character, then why would I use the system that doesn't get the job done?
I'm not trying to sit there and say "Optimize or Die" (though that is practically synonymous with how the game is currently designed, so it's not unfounded), all I'm saying is "Don't destroy my ability to portray characters who are powerful/weak or can accomplish X," a request that is infinitely more reasonable and widespread among all types of gamers.
Because if the system doesn't work, then I can't "win" with this system. Sure, you can't please everyone, but this was a pretty big blow across multiple types of gamers.
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Well not everybody plays this game to win.It's not about winning. It's about being able to accurately portray character concepts for whatever gaming that I see fit. And in a lot of people's minds, that is winning.
If I want to portray someone who is strong enough, extremely weak, or who specializes in X subject, but I cannot portray that level of power, or that type of character, then why would I use the system that doesn't get the job done?
I'm not trying to sit there and say "Optimize or Die" (though that is practically synonymous with how the game is currently designed, so it's not unfounded), all I'm saying is "Don't destroy my ability to portray characters who are powerful/weak or can accomplish X," a request that is infinitely more reasonable and widespread among all types of gamers.
Because if the system doesn't work, then I can't "win" with this system. Sure, you can't please everyone, but this was a pretty big blow across multiple types of gamers.
I say the system works.
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If your character concept's linchpin is the availability of a single underpriced and overpowered item, well...
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'My character concept cannot possibly work unless he wears a culturally anachronistic hat!'
Actually, that would make more sense than, 'the hat must have this set of powers'. Once you are complaining about the numbers that isn't a character concept. It's a math problem.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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, getting all of them puts you a good amount ahead of the expected AC curve.
It's also not that much more than 20k gp to get most of them.
This change has lowered my AC on every character I have in PFS by 2. You can't get a luck bonus to AC that works with the other slots any more. (Poncho conflicts with cloak of resistance and is touch only anyway.)
So this change does reduce the static always available 36 AC you could easily reach by 7th with the right build and half your gold at that level.
I actually see this as a positive in some ways. It's going to hurt more to be a martial now, but we are doing it "as expected" now.
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And behind in other places...
Actually, my quote to which Chess Pwn refers (not specifically about this topic but certainly applicable) shows that you will be ahead of the curve both in AC and in other places because you get more AC for less gp. Here's a quote instead of a paraphrase:
The chart for expected opposition in the Bestiary, while not sacrosanct in designing foes or infallible, does arise from a mathematical assumption that can be satisfied by buying the Big 6, and potentially other ways by buying gear that fills the same role or by building in such a way that you avoid running into the d20 roll in question (no need for a weapon if you don't make attack rolls, less need for armor if you avoid enemies getting an attack roll on you, etc), but probably can't be satisfied by characters with no gear unless they have extraordinary class features. It's something inherited from 3.5, and it's why I lobbied for the inclusion of the Automatic Bonus Progression in Unchained (and succeeded and then wrote it). Incidentally, the idea that you could avoid them with similar items cuts the other way as well: the fact that the chart works out with the Big 6 means that over time, even though for instance the item pricing chart says that a slotless +1 unusual AC bonus item (like dusty rose prism ioun stone) is 5,000 gp, if you create 12 of them each for a different bonus type, while no one is overpowered, a single character with all 12 of them and a +3 ring of protection and +3 amulet of natural armor has 8 more AC than a character who spent 4,000 gp more on a +5 ring and +5 amulet, and is going to break the game's math. This is an example of overall math creep without any individual item being actually overpowered, and it can be an issue more so for allowing everything carte blanche over some sort of limitation that checks to see if an individual character is doing this.
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'My character concept cannot possibly work unless he wears a culturally anachronistic hat!'
Actually, that would make more sense than, 'the hat must have this set of powers'. Once you are complaining about the numbers that isn't a character concept. It's a math problem.
If math was abstract of a character's potential to do XYZ, you'd have a point.
But the problem stems that the numbers are almost always linked to the character concept and how effective it is pulled off.
Want to rule the world through kindness? Better have the highest Charisma and Diplomacy in the freaking world, as well as any abilities which improve upon it.
Want to be an unhittable juggernaut? Better have the highest AC, Saves, and CMD in the world, as well as any abilities (Spell Resistance, etc). to help further protect you.
This extends well beyond flat numbers, but onto the ability to do a subject itself; Crane Style feat chain says hi.
So saying that nerfing an item's effectiveness is "just a math problem" because that's all it currently is, is a fool's taunt, one that invites even worse problems to come at some time in the future (like it just did).
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I have no problem with the item getting nerfed. I think that removing a luck bonus to AC is a bad move from both a mechanical and RP standpoint. The luck bonus matches both flavor and the mechanics of the game. I can understand removing the crit-be-gone part of it as that is difficult to price.
I think it is disingenuous to say that it was done because AC is too easy to get. The luck bonus to armor is something that has been codified in the system since previous iteration of the game and has never caused a problem in and of itself. Currently there is no item to take the place of obtaining the luck bonus. I didn't think that the Jingasa was a problem. It actually made you pay for a feature that you may not want (the crit-be-gone bit) in order to get something you did want (the luck bonus to AC).
If anything I think that the removal of the luck bonus hurts the power curve for the character types who would be most likely to buy it as there is nothing anyone can get that takes it's place currently.
No, I think a better option would have been to change it's price if the power it gave was out of line for it's price. Changing the item to something that doesn't resemble what it was meant for and doesn't give the mechanics that people are looking for is a mistake.
That being said, the purpose of this thread was not to complain. It was to look for other options now that it is gone.