I am considering building an Ectoplasmatist and am looking at what tools I want to put in my toolbox here.
So first of all I am considering going with Slashing Grace so it is going to be feat tight at the early levels. I am thinking of dipping to pick up Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse early but am open to suggestions about the best dip to grab theses. With the best thing for Ectoplasmatist being more Ectoplasmatist I don't really want to go more than a level deep to get it.
I also wanted to go with Two Weapon Fighting and Combat Reflexes as these are light reach weapons. These feats are so good for the build that I am really looking for a way to get them in earlier, hence why I am looking for a way to pick up some of these feats earlier.
For reference Secret Wizard has a very similar build here. It didn't inspire my concept but it is pretty close to what I am thinking about.
The build poses some challenges and some questions though. Here are some of them:
1. While I'm fairly certain there is no issue with taking Weapon Focus for weapon-like spells and bombs where does that leave Lash? Judging from this FAQ it seems like it is all allowable. Bombs are (Su) and so is Lash so ... I'm good. Right?
2. The Lashes don't actually take up hands... or do they? The fluff seems to indicate that they do not with "ectoplasm tethered to her by wispy, ectoplasmic tendrils" but then it also says "she can wield them both as light melee weapons". I can't tell whether they mean that they sorta just come out of her like a tentacle as a separate appendage or if that while they are tethered that they still have to be held to be swung like a weapon.
I am assuming that you need Two-Weapon Fighting to use two Lashes effectively because it says that they are wielded like weapons. But whether they take up an actual hand or not seems fuzzy. The level 4 ability allowing them to manipulate objects at a distance could either mean that they are separate autonomous appendages or that you still have to hold them to use them in this way. Spiritual Combat also is unclear. The ability saying "an ectoplasmatist can make all of her attacks with a single light or one-handed ectoplasmic lash wielded in one hand, and also cast a single spiritualist spell" could be interpreted in two different ways. The first is that it is saying "wielded in one hand" to signify that this ability wont function if you manifest the two-handed bludgeoning Lash, or it could support the concept that it takes a hand to "wield" the lash.
We could go with the fluff of the archetype concept in that basically it replaces a Phantom with with Ectoplasmic Lash in a sense that they harbor this mentally. But if we are likening it to a Phantom they are interchangeably described as an extension of the character's own consciousness and as a separate creature. Mostly, though, when the Phantom isn't manifested it is treated as part of the character. But where does that leave Ectoplasmic Lash? Manifested, partially manifested, "harbored" or somewhere in between? Its certainly not a separate being, but separate appendage?
This is important for several reasons. IE: How do Deliquescent Gloves work with these attacks (or do they at all)? Can I use a shield while using both Lashes? How about a buckler? Does it even allow for the use of Slashing Grace or any of the feats that require a free hand (Crane Style, etc.)?
3. How would one improve these attacks? I get that an Amulet of Mighty Fists wouldn't work as it isn't a natural attack. It is, however, still a "weapon". ...or is it? It is wielded as a weapon. But is it treated as a weapon for other things? What about Greater Magic Weapon? We covered whether it can be treated as a weapon for feats (I think they can) but what about other effects? Say you were some funky combination of Paladin and Ectoplasmatist: could you use your Divine Bond on your Lashes? Likewise what about a Magus using his Arcane Pool to enhance his weapon? Hell... for that matter could a Bladebound Magus make his Lashes an intelligent Black Blade? It could certainly make for an interesting concept!
These questions all really need to be answered before I can effectively make a build. I think I'm going to post the questions separately in the rules forum. But I am also looking for build advice particularly in the following areas:
How to pick up some of these as bonus feats with minimal dippage.
How to enhance the attacks.
Itemization and gear for such a build.
The post for rules question is here if you would like to keep the advice separate from the rules discussions.
A Bladebound Magus with their Ectoplasmic Lashes being their intelligent Black Blade does sound super awesome. I kinda wanna do it. Plus, I could go with only 3 levels of Kensai/Bladebound and get the Black Blade and pick up Weapon Focus as a bonus feat. It does put off the rest of the Ectoplasmatist stuff though... ugh.
What do you think of this build:
Str 8
Dex 17+2
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 13
Cha 12
Rogue is Unchained Rogue
Spiritualist is all Ectoplasmatist
1st
Spiritualist 1
Ectoplasmic Lash, Knacks, Combat Reflexes (1st) , Two Weapon Fighting (human)
2nd
Rogue 1
Finesse Training, Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding
3rd
Rogue 2
Evasion, Rogue Talent: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (3rd)
4th
Rogue 3
Danger Sense +1, Finesse Training, Sneak Attack 2d6
5th
Spiritualist 2
Lash: +1, Fury's Fall (5th)
6th
Spiritualist 3
Spiritual Combat
7th
Spiritualist 4
Ectoplasmic Armor, Lash: reach +5ft., Weapon Trick: Off-Hand Opportunity (7th)
8th
Spiritualist 5
Detect Undead
9th
Spiritualist 6
Lash: +2 and aligned, Improved Two Weapon Fighting (9th)
10th
Spiritualist 7
Calm Spirit
11th
Spiritualist 8
Lash: Ghost Touch, Greater Trip (11th)
12th
Spiritualist 9
See Invisibility
Other feat ideas:
I considered Cornugon Smash and Shatter Defenses to allow for frequent use of Sneak Attack and debuffing. The problem with this is threefold:
1. It takes up 5 feats (Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, Power Attack and Cornugon Smash). I have to take Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting so that only leaves me with 5 open feats so that puts this schtick coming online at 11th level which is too late to wait for too little benefit.
2. Power Attacking and Two-Weapon Fighting is going to make this character's attack bonus dismal.
3. Power Attack requires 13 Strength and this is a Dex focused build.
I considered a mix of Circling Mongoose and Panther Style feats. There are problems with this as well.
1. Circling Mongoose requires you to be adjacent and doesn't care about reach.
2. It requires way too many feats (Dodge, Mobility, Sprint Attack, Circling Mongoose, Improved Unarmed Strike, Panther Style and at least Panther Claw to get multiple attacks). There is just not enough room for all of that.
I also considered going with Kirin Style. This has flaws as well.
1. While I was planning on getting a positive modifier on Int I wasn't planning on getting it super high.
2. It takes a lot of feats many of which can't be taken until later. It requires the following to be effective: (Improved Unarmed Strike, Kirin Style, Kirin Strike and Combat Style Master). Kirin Style becomes available at 6th level so I could take it at 7th. Kirin Strike becomes available at 9th level but I need that spot for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Combat Style Master also becomes available at that level. That is too many feats fighting for my 9th level slot and no way to take the others any sooner.
3. Without Combat Style Master it takes 3 turns to bring Kirin Strike online. That is too late for too little advantage.
I settled on the above build because each feat is beneficial along the way and builds toward a common goal. Prone creatures are easier to hit and you get AoOs when they stand up. With Greater Trip you even get an attack when you trip. A Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone socketed into a Wayfinder will go a long way towards ensuring that the trips land. This build's BAB is a bit low but I feel I have enough ways of shoring up the weak CMB especially with Fury's Fall in the mix. This build is at least serviceable and each feat represents a true advantage being gained rather than just filling prerequisites. Plus if play goes beyond 12th level there are plenty of other in-theme feats to pick up that add to the build. Ki Throw, Tripping Strike and Viscous Stomp to name a few. There are also a bunch of critical feats that would start becoming very helpful after getting Keen via the Ectoplasmatist's 12th level Ectoplasmic Lash ability.
I'm not married to the tripping concept, though. In fact, I would prefer to focus on something that benefits more from the AoOs and reach. I thought of going the Bodygard, Combat Patrol, Swift Aid, etc. route but my son already has a character that focuses a lot on that. Also with going armorless and shieldless it kind of forgoes the Benevolent enchantment that really makes these builds shine. There are also the Stand Still and Steady Engagement line of feats. I didn't dismiss those but believe that simply Tripping is a superior tactic. There is also that whole bother with the word “adjacent” in Stand Still. I still really feel that should say “threatened”.
The real issue is that I get all the feats I really need early in this build and have a bunch I'm not sure what to do with. I admit it is a good problem to have and I normally make builds that always have a good way to spend a feat. All this one really needs is Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes and the Two-Weapon Fighting line of feats. It has all of those by 2nd level. Then I'm looking for other good ways to spend my feats.
It is too bad that Spiritualists do not have access to Frostbite or Frigid Touch or I would consider Rime Spell.
Any other ideas of how to build this kind of character?
Hm. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Maybe I should make a Bladebound/Kensai Magus instead and take a single level of Ectoplasmatist just to get the Lash as a weapon. One level is a pretty strong dip for getting a weapon that can never be disarmed, stolen, destroyed, dispelled or used against you. I mean, the RP alone is worth it. Hell, the saves, spells and knacks alone nearly make it worth it.
The real question on that build concept is where to drop off at. A second level of Ectoplasmatist is desirable to get the +1 enhancement bonus early. It isn't really worth it for 2 levels, but 3... well, then you get Spiritual Combat with your Spiritualist spells and that can be handy. And if you are going to 3 then 4th is also nice to grab both reach, Ectoplasmic Armor, another BAB, more saves and 2nd level Spiritualist spells. I can't see going more than 4 levels, though. I think it is either 1 level, or 4 levels.
It wouldn't allow me to Two-Weapon Fight, but it would allow for everything else I want to do. It would also allow for the use of Rime Spell. Hm... this is interesting. I'm going to have to think on this.
Aw, c'mon. I was really hoping for some feedback on this. Any feedback. Hell, I'd even take a "You suck and your ideas are stupid." at this point. :(
Trouble is you're as knowledgable as anyone likely to pop up here Lune.
Still, I'll try. Int 12 is one short of what you need for combat expertise, right? Dirty fighting is a common answer there, it should work for improved trip but I haven't checked all the other feat prereqs.
I hate keeping trap sense/danger sense on a rogue. If you don't especially care about trapfinding you might take the rake archetype, or shadow walker, or swashbuckler or something.
Hey, avr, thanx for posting. :) I hope I don't know more than most about Occult classes. I don't own the book, mostly dislike the classes from it (with the exception of Spiritualist, really) and haven't put much thought into anything from it until now. I wonder if there is anyone out there that has ever played an Ectoplasmatist who could lend advice.
Ah, yeah. Good catch on the Int.
I was looking at Rogue archetypes but none really appealed to me. I don't so much care about trap sense or danger sense in this build either but then again what I can switch them out for wasn't all that appealing either. *shrug* I dunno, I guess Darkvision is alright.
I have been thinking about the build more. I wonder how bad it would be to switch out the Rogue levels for Kensai/Bladebound. The idea of having the Lash be my Black Blade is really appealing.
Slashing Grace doesn't work well with Magus anymore, I am aware. However, you still get Dex to hit, just not to damage when using Spell Combat. The up side is that you can still prebuff with a touch spell from the Magus list and you can still use Spiritual Combat and Slashing Grace works just fine. I wouldn't be able to use TWF with Slashing Grace though.
The problem here is that there are only 5 ways that I know of to get Dex to damage:
1. Agile - It doesn't work here as there is no way to apply it to the Lash.
2. Fencing Grace - The Lash isn't a Rapier.
3. Dervish Dance - The Lash also isn't a Scimitar.
4. Slashing Grace - It works! ...but you can't TWF or use Spell Combat with it but you can use Spiritual Combat with it.
5. 3 levels of Unchained Rogue - It also works! ... but it is 3 levels of a class that adds nothing else to the build (except feats, I guess)
I have even been thinking of going 1 Ectoplasmatist, 3 Kensai/Bladebound, 3 URogue then the rest Ectoplasmatist. The up side is it gives me everything I want to do: TWF, Dex to damage with all attacks, full use of both Spell Combat and Spiritual Combat, an intelligent Black Blade Lash. The down side... well, it is severe. By 7th level I would only have a crippling 4 BAB. This is only partially made better with a high Dex, free Weapon Focus and Arcane Pool boost.
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I don't know if you've resolved the initial question of hand use with the lashes, but as the designer of the archetype, I can share that in both intent and execution (I thought the latter was clear, anyway), the ectoplasmatist's hands are indeed taken up when wielding the lashes.
Ayy!!! Alright! Always happy to get an answer so that I can make the build work the way it was intended. :) Thank you so much for posting about intent, Brandon. I really appreciate it. Also congrats on making one of the few things I liked out of the Occult adventures. Most of the classes don't seem to play well with others for the rest of Pathfinder. The Spiritualist is my diamond in the rough and I particularly like the Ectoplasmatist.
I think that leaves the only lingering question is if they take up the metaphysical hand (aka "hand worth of effort) or if they take up the actual hand. In other words whether you are able to hold something in those hands but not use it and whether Deliquescent Gloves work with Lashes or not.
OK, I was wrong about luring the knowledgable out of the woodwork. It did work.
There is actually a way to apply Agile to a lash. The occultist class can get you a transmutation implement, whose base power is to spend 1 point of mental focus as a standard action to either improve a weapon's enhancement bonus or to add an equivalent ability for 1 minute. On the downside, a standard action and limited uses, on the upside just one level required. With the reliquarian archetype you could even get a domain to go with that - travel or trickery perhaps - and make the mental focus points based off Wis.
3+ levels in each of 3 classes seems to me insane in PF. You're looking at 2nd level spells at level 10 and similar delays on everything else.
Here's my take: click
Secret Wizard: I credited you in my original post and linked your thread. :)
You don't do TWF or Blackblade though.
avr: I think you are right about the classes. Going 3/3/x is spreading it too thin. I dislike the Occultist (and in fact, all occult classes except Spiritualist, really) and don't think it is right for the build. However, here is an alternate idea:
Ectoplasmatist 1, Bladebound/Kensai 3, all the rest Ectoplasmatist. I could still get Dex to damage all the time via Slashing Grace except when using Spell Combat. I would still get it when using Spiritual Combat, though. I could always cast before attacking with spells like Chill Touch that last for more than a single attack. The only thing this wouldn't give me is Two-Weapon Fighting. I could take Two-Weapon Fighting but couldn't use it with Slashing Grace so it is a loss to do so. I just don't see anyway to fit it all in without the 3/3/x.
Ooops, got caught up in the discussion.
I thought that too and it is a valid question. And their spells are worse for the circumstances. You would think if anything that the class feature would be MORE forgiving.