Farewell, Jingasa.


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I think the item nerf isn't as big as what it implies here. Now my characters lose one or two points of AC and need a new way around crits, big whoop. The trait+Item combo complaint is silly, because defender of the society is a trait that explicity gives a +1 to AC. It doesn't get called cheesy or a cheap exploit, because +1 AC will not save you often. The crit negation can arise from armor properties, which work more often in a day, even if you cannot decide when they work. The actual mechanical change is annoying, but not crippling

But more importantly, people liked the jingasa. It wasn't a staple item or a necessity for anyone, like the mithral BP or Cloak of Resistance, but it was fun to figure out a flavorful reason your non-tian characters had it, and it was good enough to justify buying it perhaps with a quick line about why if asked about it. It was a popular that a lot of people liked, and was only in need of a minor tweak. It was then turned into a nearly useless item that makes little sense for many characters. This isn't fun, nor is trying to patch up the hole in defenses. Its doable, and in this case its kind of easy, but I do not enjoy it as it bothers me to use cookie cutter builds/items.

Also, to the "Ignore/Houserule Patch it" crowd, that isn't an option for more than just PFS. In some circles, GMs don't allow it. Many GMs in the past have disallowed item crafting fearing exploitation, and many use the PRD/SRD because they haven't saved enough to buy all the PDF/books they want to use. Its not an option for everyone.

Dark Archive

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Will.Spencer wrote:
On a positive note, fewer characters are going to look silly now.

My friend, you are in luck. With the generously priced Sleaves of Many Garments, you are granted full freedom with equipping your characters while maintaining your badass iconic look.


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Dracoknight wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

No.... it's not for a damn good reason.

You are being petulant and repetitive at this point.

The luck bonus to AC was a problem, since most character's concepts revolved around exploiting Fate's Favored and the Jingasa which turned 5000 gp...

If luck bonuses was such a big deal why didnt they just remove or nerf Fate's favored? Its like the Alpha and Omega for everyone that have access to Divine favor, or the sacred tattoos for half-orc...

And +2 AC for 5k? Thats what it cost for +2 armor aswell! (for the enchanment costs alone)

Can you imagine how much complaining would happen if they took away Fates favouted? One player said every character just lost 2 ac from this item. Imagine how many half orcs would cease to exist because that trait was taken away.

Maybe you're right though. Maybe the answer is to just drop Fates favoured. Would change so much


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A lot of people are understandably upset when the rug gets pulled out from under their characters, even if only in small ways—we have seen much worse in the past—and hyperbole is just a fact of the Internet. Most, if not all of the items in this errata could have used a price increase or an added qualifier (such as to prevent people from using a new Quick Runner's Shirt each combat). But most of these changes went way too far in the other direction, relegating the items to the scrap heap along with, frankly, a huge share of other options.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Also, I DO play to win - but the kind of mentality that I railed against, and that people subsequently implied was about "playing to win," ISN'T one that "wins." In addition to destroying the game, it doesn't even achieve its own goal of "making the most powerful character" since everything has a price, and there's no way to be "optimized" for a game where anything's possible. It definitely seems to me that the characters made by those of us who don't believe the tenets of this new "Church of Gaming" (founded circa 2007, then rose to the fore circa 2012) wind up making much more functional characters than those who do - it does a lot to make one conclude that this "Church's" whole way of thinking about the game, for all its seemingly persuasive on-paper arguments, is fundamentally wrong.

Confusing theoretical and practical optimization again/still. And I don't think I'll ever understand why the phenomenon of people asking for and receiving advice on character mechanics drives you so apoplectic. Cultists with a meme opinion...

Quote:
Shrivel the game down until there are only a few possibilities to worry about? Then it might be doable

The game does filter down to a relatively small number of possibilities to worry about: Such quantities as Attack Bonus, AC, Fort/Ref/Will, and so on. That is the entire point of making and playing with RPG rules set - otherwise you can save a lot of money by just playing freeform.

Quote:
but in addition to most of us NOT wanting to play such an impoverished game, consider how the endless cycles of attempting to "balance" World of Warcraft never made anybody truly satisfied, just made everything worse the more things were messed with, and the forums rang night and day with the screams of bean-counters shoving their 5th-grade pre-algebra into each others' faces and all insisting how they alone had "objective proof" that everyone who disagreed with them about who was too weak/too strong that month was WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!

World of Warcraft can't reach a balanced state for a few reasons not applicable here: One, they press the 'reset button' every couple of years with a new expansion, which makes far more sweeping changes than, say, Pathfinder hardcover releases. Two, they insisted until very recently that they would not have a hard separation between PvP and PvE mechanics, and as WoW is primarily a PvE game, it was balanced around endgame raiding. Three, Ghostcrawler was a hack and his replacement is apparently worse. I'm surprised not to see a reference to D&D 4e in here as well. I'm not surprised to see you repeat the same old implication that because the game's internal math is simple, it must therefore be meaningless.

Quote:
That game was fun, once - but then came...The Bag of Hammers Clan (and that unforgivable insult of an NPC whose name I shall not repeat - you made such a beautiful world, Blizzard, why did you have to s**% on your own art until you chased off your own core clientele???).

I'll agree with you there. Though I wasn't that big a fan of the Warcraft setting to begin with, when I heard players were chasing Garrosh through time I knew the setting was irredeemably lost.


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Just to note: Bracers of Falcon's Aim *are* now erroneously priced.
A 1st level spell of 1min/lv at CL1 in a continuous-operation enchantment is worth 4000gp.

By becoming a 1/day for 1 minute charge item on-command, the new cost should now be (1*1*1800*2)/5 Giving us 720gp for 1/day.

Gonna need errata for the errata!

Scarab Sages

Athaleon wrote:


Confusing theoretical and practical optimization again/still. And I don't think I'll ever understand why the phenomenon of people asking for and receiving advice on character mechanics drives you so apoplectic. Cultists with a meme opinion...

What I'm bothered by is the ascent (which I was there to observe all of) of a narrow, ordered way of thinking and speaking that doesn't play well with anyone who doesn't speak and think their way, and winds up marginalizing the rest of us wherever it takes firm root because it demands understanding without extending any. It's interesting (maybe even some kind of hopeful sign) that you agree with me about World of Warcraft, since that's where I first observed it taking shape, and saw it (as well as other issues that aren't necessarily cut from the same cloth) gradually ruin what had been a fun game environment.

Athaleon wrote:


The game does filter down to a relatively small number of possibilities to worry about: Such quantities as Attack Bonus, AC, Fort/Ref/Will, and so on.

You're getting it backwards: Character stats are just character stats, but the challenges you might face are literally limitless.

Athaleon wrote:


That is the entire point of making and playing with RPG rules set - otherwise you can save a lot of money by just playing freeform.

No, the point of an RPG rules set is to provide a sort of "UI" between the Land of the Living and a fantasy realm. If you're just going to shrivel it down to a math problem, you could go out and EARN money by counting cards in a casino. Yes, it doesn't entirely make sense; Why do we pick our hobbies? Why do any of us do just what we do? Trying to mathematically optimize one's life will not, in fact, get you the best result.

Athaleon wrote:


I'm not surprised to see you repeat the same old implication that because the game's internal math is simple, it must therefore be meaningless.

Math is a lot like money, actually; its very insubstantiality is precisely what makes it useful. It's a means to an end, not an end unto itself - and bad things happen when it's made into an end.

Athaleon wrote:


I'm surprised not to see a reference to D&D 4e in here as well.

And you're dredging up old interactions for the sake of superfluous disdainful remarks because...why? I know my problems, but what on Earth is yours?

Athaleon wrote:


I'll agree with you there. Though I wasn't that big a fan of the Warcraft setting to begin with, when I heard players were chasing Garrosh through time I knew the setting was irredeemably lost.

I wouldn't say I was "a big fan of the Warcraft setting to begin with" either (the whole "magic is an evil drug yadayada," to name only one prominent thing to dislike) - and yes, while I stopped keeping track before whatever you're talking about and could name occurrences in the game's/setting's history from before then that I'd consider much more damning signs, I can certainly imagine the sound of Garrosh (a name whose significance I can barely even place anymore) activating his Boots of Time Travel as being oddly reminiscent of a waterski scraping the back of a shark.


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Cavall wrote:


Can you imagine how much complaining would happen if they took away Fates favouted? One player said every character just lost 2 ac from this item. Imagine how many half orcs would cease to exist because that trait was taken away.

Maybe you're right though. Maybe the answer is to just drop Fates favoured. Would change so much

I bet the complaint sea would be huge on that aswell, but its a nerf that would make more sense. Instead of nerfing X items you could just remove what makes them "too good" in the first place.

And its not like +1 to all saves is bad, its just that +2 to all saves is a little too good for a 1st level character at the cost of... nearly nothing.

It would make Divine martials pissy due to the hit to their Divine favor, and thats already pretty good for a 1st level spell.


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Will.Spencer wrote:
Lune wrote:
That being said, the purpose of this thread was not to complain. It was to look for other options now that it is gone.

Craft your own item with a Luck bonus.

DISCLAIMER: This thread is currently in the Advice forum, not a PFS-specific forum

And that is all well and nice except for games that do not allow custom item creation. That is an alternate rule and isn't allowed at all tables (or even most tables from my experience). I'm not just talking about PFS here, although that does represent a large player base. This might be hard to believe but there are a LOT of tables that follow the latest errata and do not use alternate rules.

That isn't really the point here, though. To me it sounds like Paizo is making a change that represents the thought that a Luck bonus to AC in general is worth more than just 2,500gp. The statement was made that it is too easy to get a bunch of cheap AC items and that it was throwing off the balance of the game. If that is true then that is an issue that runs to the core of the system. Also, if that is true then it is a problem that can be resolved by adjusting the pricing of a luck bonus to AC.

Removing the only item (that is available to everyone, not just casters) that provides a luck bonus to AC is not the way to resolve the stated issue. Changing the price is.

I am completely with the crowd who believes the real underlying problem is Fate's Favored. In fact, I would bet that a truthful answer from any Paizo Dev would be that they do NOT think that a +1 luck bonus to AC isn't worth 2,500. Mostly, I don't think they would want to say that as it would be akin to stating that it is a flaw that is at the core of the system and I don't think any of them believe that.


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Jamie Charlan wrote:
A 1st level spell of 1min/lv at CL1 in a continuous-operation enchantment is worth 4000gp.

The magic item pricing also includes a step of comparing and contrasting with existing items and effects. That step is important. Consider shield or true strike as constant effects - that's a shield +3 that doesn't need an arm (constant dancing effect equivalent), and something impossibly good. Neither should be 4000gp.

For the bracers, as a constant effect they offer a +3 perception (~1500gp), a +1 to hit (worth a feat, or less than a +1 enhancement), and a crit doubling for bows (also worth a feat). Keen isn't available for bows, but if it was this would be a +1 enhancement. And note, the bracers stack with the weapon itself. How much a +1 weapon enhancement is worth obviously varies, but it's somewhere between 6000 and 38000gp.

Compare and contrast with lesser bracers of archery (+1 to hit for 5000), or greater (+2 to hit and +1 damage, like a feat and a +1 enhancement). The falcon bracers are massively better than the lesser archery bracers, but do a little less damage than the greater bracers.

So as a constant effect I would estimate Bracers of Falcon's Aim at more than 15000gp, but probably less than 20,000.


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
What I'm bothered by is the ascent (which I was there to observe all of) of a narrow, ordered way of thinking and speaking that doesn't play well with anyone who doesn't speak and think their way, and winds up marginalizing the rest of us wherever it takes firm root because it demands understanding without extending any.

I say that describe your stance accurately.


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@Jamie Charlan

All that Lucy_Valentine said

+

According to the table, you would actually halve your sum of 720 gp, since you don't add a duration multiplier if the item isn't continuous.

*****

@Lucy_Valentine

Just a pet peeve of mine, but you shouldn't compare it to Bracers of Archery. A +1 competence bonus to hit has a price of 2000 gp.

The Bracers of Archery (lesser) has that price because they grant weapon proficiency, which is priced at 5000 gp.

(slotless items has a 2x multiplier)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Jamie Charlan wrote:

Just to note: Bracers of Falcon's Aim *are* now erroneously priced.

A 1st level spell of 1min/lv at CL1 in a continuous-operation enchantment is worth 4000gp.

By becoming a 1/day for 1 minute charge item on-command, the new cost should now be (1*1*1800*2)/5 Giving us 720gp for 1/day.

Gonna need errata for the errata!

Either you are trying to be funny or you don't know the item creation rules.

None of your prices are correct because to even get to the chart you have to have concluded to similar item or effects exist.

Similar items include Eyes of the Eagle, Pale Green cracked ioun stone of a tracks, gloves of delinquent(gives +1 acid ability is a lot like +1 keen).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

One minor quibble...there's no spell or feat that adds a +1 Critical multiplier to ANYTHING until you get to the Fighter capstone.
Unless you include an Exotic Weapon Proficency, of course (longsword/battle-axe to Falcata)

==Aelryinth


Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Jamie Charlan wrote:
A 1st level spell of 1min/lv at CL1 in a continuous-operation enchantment is worth 4000gp.

The magic item pricing also includes a step of comparing and contrasting with existing items and effects. That step is important. Consider shield or true strike as constant effects - that's a shield +3 that doesn't need an arm (constant dancing effect equivalent), and something impossibly good. Neither should be 4000gp.

For the bracers, as a constant effect they offer a +3 perception (~1500gp), a +1 to hit (worth a feat, or less than a +1 enhancement), and a crit doubling for bows (also worth a feat). Keen isn't available for bows, but if it was this would be a +1 enhancement. And note, the bracers stack with the weapon itself. How much a +1 weapon enhancement is worth obviously varies, but it's somewhere between 6000 and 38000gp.

Compare and contrast with lesser bracers of archery (+1 to hit for 5000), or greater (+2 to hit and +1 damage, like a feat and a +1 enhancement). The falcon bracers are massively better than the lesser archery bracers, but do a little less damage than the greater bracers.

So as a constant effect I would estimate Bracers of Falcon's Aim at more than 15000gp, but probably less than 20,000.

I don't think that's entirely safe reasoning.

First to address the implication this is a true-strike sword... no. Not even close. Please could we have a sticky on a true-strike sword being brought up EVERY TIME something hugely over-priced is introduced. And I don't mean close as in +1 isn't a +20, i mean it fundamentally isn't the same sort of thing.

Feats don't have price equivalents. You have to use common sense.

+3 perception would be +900gp as it's 3-squared x 100, still well under 4000gp.

You can't treat a bonus other than an enhancement bonus from something completely different from a weapon as if it would be an enhancement bonus for that weapon. If you WERE to do that then you might as well just make ANY item to give a bonus to hit have a set price. So the game suddenly becomes extremely boring and predictable. Money is directly relate-able to the bonus to hit. Also, it's not even a proper enhancement bonus as it's +1 to hit, not +1 to damage.

Only a +1 to hit, that's more like the bonus from being Masterwork which is 300gp equivalent.

Here's the problem with treating an entirely separate slotted item as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.

Say someone is shooting a single non-masterwork Crossbow and what BoFA offers. Well it's hugely OVERPRICED way of getting a mere +1 to hit as he could buy one of a set of 50 masterwork bolts for 6gp to get the same effect as a 4000gp in terms of to-hit and something else costing. The benefits of Improved Critical feat is impossible to value.

But what if they had a +4 crossbow with Bane and a load of other special abilities, then "adding an enhancement bonus to that" then that's 26'000gp

How can you have such a disparity? Because you are treating any bonus to hit from anywhere as if it's a weapon enhancement bonus when that's not actually what's going on.

Remember the guideline of "Sword of True Strike" is for a SINGLE SWORD getting that bonus.

Be realistic.

Bracers of Archery, Lesser is only 5000gp, how the hell does adding a non-stacking feat-like-effect and +3 perception bonus triple let alone quadruple the price?!?!?

Apply common sense, they could never afford a 15k classic BoFA till Level 8 by how you cannot spend more than half your wealth on any one item... they can already get improved critical as a feat by then which doesn't stack with Aspect of Falcon. Why would they go for that rather than lesser bracer's of archery?

But it's moot, we don't have Classic BoFA any more, we have New Coke BoFA... for now.

Shadow Lodge

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To the question of new ways to get that luck bonus back...
The best I see is the Amulet of the Blooded (Destined), 10k gp. "+2 luck bonus on all saving throws and to AC during surprise rounds or any time he is otherwise unaware of an attack." And 1/d reroll an attack, crit confirm, or spell resistance. Parsing is debatable "+2 luck bonus on (all saving throws) and (AC during ...)" or "+2 luck bonus on (all saving throws and AC) during ..." but sneak attacks are often when you are unaware, and surprise rounds are sometimes.

Gunfighter's poncho was mentioned above, but it only on touch attacks.
Amulet of Bullet protection gives luck bonus... but only against guns.
Gunman's duster gives 4AC (regular) and another 2(luck) vs guns, and an extra grit, for far too much money.
Cassock of the Black Monk, 34k gp, gives +4 Luck to touch and some bonuses to Oracles... but just touch.

Regarding Crit negation:
Infernal Cord (and greater) will give you fast healing when someone crits you... ok it's a start.
Blouse of the Boastful Bastard. When you get crit, restore a panache.
Vest of shed servitude. When you get crit, get a minion for 7 rounds.
Khepresh of refuge is 63k gp! But, it has 3 charges per day to use to negate sneak attacks and crits (or reroll a failed save) and gives +3 deflection AC and fire resistance 10.
Amulet of the Blooded (Aberrant) will give you light fortification.
Bracelet of Second Chances costs 15750 but gives 7 uses of sneak/crit negation.
A steadfast gutstone (800gp) lasts 24 hours and soaks up 10 damage from a crit or sneak.
Steelhand circle gives you 1/d: medium fortification.
Fortification works sometimes.
Denying (not pfs) is a +4 armor mod that gives you 1/d vs sneak and 1/d vs crits, and can be recharged per day if you're mythic.
Withstanding (maybe pfs soon?) includes medium fortification, but for a creature type as per Bane.
Clangorous is a +1 shield mod that can creater a Sound Burst when you get crit?
Martyring is an 18k gp mod that casts mass CLW on your allies when you get crit.

Anti sneak attack
If you've got uncanny dodge, an Amulet of Uncanny Defense gives you improves uncanny dodge at 4 rogue levels higher than what you have, making other rogues need to be higher to sneak you.
Also, many of the above crit negation things.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

I don't think that's entirely safe reasoning.

First to address the implication this is a true-strike sword... no. Not even close. Please could we have a sticky on a true-strike sword being brought up EVERY TIME something hugely over-priced is introduced. And I don't mean close as in +1 isn't a +20, i mean it fundamentally isn't the same sort of thing.

Pricing continuous effect after the table is exactly the same thing as trying to get a True-Strike sword. Or a "Vest of Mage Armor (+4)" for 2000 gp.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
+3 perception would be +900gp as it's 3-squared x 100, still well under 4000gp.

Yes. And then add +50% because of multiple abilites on a single item. 1350 is still well under 4000 gp.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

You can't treat a bonus other than an enhancement bonus from something completely different from a weapon as if it would be an enhancement bonus for that weapon. If you WERE to do that then you might as well just make ANY item to give a bonus to hit have a set price. So the game suddenly becomes extremely boring and predictable. Money is directly relate-able to the bonus to hit. Also, it's not even a proper enhancement bonus as it's +1 to hit, not +1 to damage.

Only a +1 to hit, that's more like the bonus from being Masterwork which is 300gp equivalent.

Wrong. Just so wrong.

First of all: A +1 COMPETENCE BONUS TO ATTACK HAS A KNOWN PRICE OF 2000 GP. DO NOT IGNORE THIS FACT.

Secondly: THAT +1 TO HIT STACKS WITH THE MASTERWORKED EQUIVALENT.

Are you seriously implying that different kinds of bonuses to Attack should all have the price of 300 gp each? You should keep in mind that the Masterwork bonus becomes obsolete when you get your magic weapon, as enhancement bonuses doesn't stack.

*****

If the old Bracers of Falcon's Aim didn't grant the crit-increasing effect, then they would have a price of 3350 gp.

I'm confident the crit-increasing effect is a tad bit stronger than to be valued at 650/1.5 gp.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Stuff

(sighs)

Competence to skill +3, 900 gp.
+1 Comp to Hit = Pale green cracked ioun stone, 1/2 = 2k.
Stacking +crit range OR + Crit mod - 10 to 20k effect.

Multiply for unaffiliated slot, x 1.5 or x2. Comp and +1 TH are secondary effects, so also x1.5.

Value - Even if we start at 10k, the two secondary effects are going to be 2900 x 1.5 for secondaries, which puts us about 14,400 gp.

Then we have to figure that competence bonuses, TH bonuses and critical effects are weapon effects, not associated with bracers, and so price increase. Easy 20k. Which puts it in Greater Bracers of Archery area, which is about right.

The power of the bracers is not that people can take Keen or Improved Critical, it's that they DO NOT HAVE TO, a point you seem to be missing. THey can buy away the feat or the multiplier (a unique effect!), and it stacks with their +10 weapon.

So, no, your reasoning is not good by any stretch of the imagination. It's about having to make a choice with your money between equally good options at that level, not about having a no-brainer to take the Bracers because it's that much better. I really don't believe you tried to make a magic item pricing argument 'because then they can't afford it until level 8!'

And that argument about having to take Fate's Favored and then "WAIT" for the benefit?! wth was that? Fate's Favored works for you at level 1 if you are a half-orc, and 2 if you are an archeologist, and just gets better with time.
And you have heard of the Extra Traits feat, right? Take that feat...+1 to all saves, TH, dmg, AC, and skill/ability checks. Oh, and you get ANOTHER trait, on top of it. At anytime you choose to take it.
WTH, man?

Or, to put it another way:
+3 bonus Comp to Percept, as Eyes of Eagle, non-eye slot x 1.5 - 1350 gp.
+1 TH missiles, as Cracked Pale Green Ioun stone, half price, non-affiliated slot x 1.5- 3000 gp.
Keen/Improved Mod, as +1 Enhancement non-weapon = Deliquescent Gloves, non-affiliated slot - 12k.

Lesser abilities x 1.5 as secondary abilities. 2k and 4500 gp.

Final price, 18,500 gp or so. Based on current magic items.

==Aelryinth


Wonderstell wrote:

Wrong. Just so wrong.

First of all: A +1 COMPETENCE BONUS TO ATTACK HAS A KNOWN PRICE OF 2000 GP. DO NOT IGNORE THIS FACT.

Secondly: THAT +1 TO HIT STACKS WITH THE MASTERWORKED EQUIVALENT.

Are you seriously implying that different kinds of bonuses to Attack should all have the price of 300 gp each? You should keep in mind that the Masterwork bonus becomes obsolete when you get your magic weapon, as enhancement bonuses doesn't stack.

*****

If the old Bracers of Falcon's Aim didn't grant the crit-increasing effect, then they would have a price of 3350 gp.

I'm confident the crit-increasing effect is a tad bit stronger...

"A +1 COMPETENCE BONUS TO ATTACK HAS A KNOWN PRICE OF 2000 GP. DO NOT IGNORE THIS FACT."

I'm not ignoring that, I didn't see you mention that till a completely different place.

It's not something that I'm ignoring, it's something to very easily not know exists that there is such a fixed and known price for. Especially as it's not clear what difference it makes whether it's a competence bonus to all attacks... just ranged attacks... jsut attacks with one particular weapon. How does that chance the price?

"Are you seriously implying that different kinds of bonuses to Attack should all have the price of 300 gp each?"

Ahh, obviously not, allow me to put your mind at rest.

I'm just pointing out the flaw in the logic of treating it as if it was sneaking in a weapon enhancement bonus, because it isn't. It's only +1 to hit, not to damage, LIKE Masterwork. The wondrous item simply is not giving any weapon you hold a +1 enhancement bonus for only 4000gp. And it's unsound reasoning to present the situation as such.

Key term "more like".

I spent almost the entire time arguing AGAINST the idea of such fixed simple bonuses to hit for all.

I wasn't actually giving a price, I was indicating that getting to a figure of 15'000 to 20'000gp is obviously way too high.

Actually, after all this, the Lesser Bracers of Archery are way overpriced, certainly it's cheaper to even get that ioun stone.

The real leap is when people fettle a calculated price of around 3350gp and between that and 4000gp notice the crit-feat equivalent... and from that jump to an insane amount. 10k, 20k. Whatever number. It'll be 25k next time I look. Why not invent a bigger number? Feats don't have prices. And then from that disparity from 4k they reason it must be fine to vacillate to the opposite extreme of Once per day on command item.

I think it should have just been re-priced at 6000gp.


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@Alex

I feel as if you may not have read other's post while you argued with Aelryinth, which might explain how you missed the gold cost of an competence bonus to attack.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
I'm just pointing out the flaw in the logic of treating it as if it was sneaking in a weapon enhancement bonus, because it isn't. It's only +1 to hit, not to damage, LIKE Masterwork. The wondrous item simply is not giving any weapon you hold a +1 enhancement bonus for only 4000gp. And it's unsound reasoning to present the situation as such.

Agreed. The people who argue that the Greater Bracers of Archery are fairly priced often mention that it is like "+1.5" to your weapon. But it's not like you would pay more for a Ring of Deflection just because you already have an Amulet of Natural armor.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Actually, after all this, the Lesser Bracers of Archery are way overpriced, certainly it's cheaper to even get that ioun stone.

Yes. The price of Bracers of Archery is actually the price of weapon proficiency. The bonus to attack (which archers use them for), has a price increase of +150%, since it should just have a price of 2,000 gp.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

The real leap is when people fettle a calculated price of around 3350gp and between that and 4000gp notice the crit-feat equivalent... and from that jump to an insane amount. 10k, 20k. Whatever number. It'll be 25k next time I look. Why not invent a bigger number? Feats don't have prices. And then from that disparity from 4k they reason it must be fine to vacillate to the opposite extreme of Once per day on command item.

I think it should have just been re-priced at 6000gp.

There are examples of feats you can buy with gold, all of them being no-requirement ones with a price of 5,000 gp. (Endurance, Alertness)

So at the very least, the (old) Bracers of Falcon's Aim should have had a price of 5000 + 2000*1.5 + 900*1.5 = 9350 gp.

But the relevant feat has a requirement of +9 BAB and is therefore stronger than these examples for 5000 gp.


My dearest Aelryinth.

Aspect of the Falcon is explicit that it doesn't stack with other feats or anything else that improves critical. If it was a problem with wording that improved critical crossbow might stack with Aspect of Falcon... then that's where an eratta could go.

Deliquescent glove is one of the most expensive examples of a +1 equivalent special ability in a non-weapon and that isn't all that it is. It also grants a touch attack. Also hand can hit oozes with impunity and they'll never cause them to split.

Even if you were to find another wondrous item that did NOTHING but grant something like the equivalent of a +1 equivalent enhancement bonus it's he said she said.

You're arms aren't "affiliated" with competent bonus to attacks? With weapons held in your arms?

And then suddenly it's "non-affiliated slot" when in wrists rather than hand slot?!?!

By my count it's still around 6k because replication of Keen should be 3k at most, arms are affiliated with using weapons, there is no such thing as increasing the cost for being in "non-affiliated slot" it just says it generally shouldn't be there, but it IS. At a push it's 7k. That's considerably more than Lesser Bracers of Archery which I notice aren't getting revised down in price. It's weird how adding two features you don't really want (and multiplying each cost by 1.5x a few times) can lead to insane price inflation from 2k to 18.5k.

You wouldn't happen to be a tax lawyer would you?

I can tell I have made your furiously angry, and you may respond in wrath, but as a peace offering my I invite you to one my pathfinder sessions. Since you're so fond of home-brew (from how often you use made up terms like "non-affiliated slots") you'll be glad to know my sessions use homebrew as well, you can have personal spells in potions, everyone gets Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, oh you'll love it, I've undone all these silly errata. Hell weapon chord is now a swift action to pick up the weapon again, isn't that great!

I can tell we just got off on the wrong foot, I look forward to hearing your response.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
By my count it's still around 6k because replication of Keen should be 3k at most, arms are affiliated with using weapons, there is no such thing as increasing the cost for being in "non-affiliated slot" it just says it generally shouldn't be there, but it IS. At a push it's 7k

Your price of 7k for continuous doesn't match their value of the effect at 1/day as 4k. So if they allowed it continuous, it would be at minimum 12k (3/day is usually the same price as unlimited.)


Wonderstell wrote:

There are examples of feats you can buy with gold, all of them being no-requirement ones with a price of 5,000 gp. (Endurance, Alertness, IUS)

So at the very least, the (old) Bracers of Falcon's Aim should have had a price of 5000 + 2000*1.5 + 900*1.5 = 9350 gp.

But the relevant feat has a requirement of +9 BAB and is therefore stronger than these examples for 5000 gp.

Which just begs the question. Why EVER bother with spells equivalent for any magic items?

You can't use them, apparently, if you have to go "well it's spell level 1, CL1, but the spell is 1 minute per level so multiply by two" if after all that you then have to see if any other magic item does the same thing and then price according to that.

So just forget about the whole table, just go straight to looking for other items that do the same sort of things and apply multipliers to them. No matter what spell it's replicating the pricing will be revised and re-calculated on what other magic items that do similar things.

This idea obviously totally devalues magic items relative to actual spells because spells can't ever be better than enhancement bonuses.

But there's a question of supremacy. IF two magic items do similar things but for different prices does the more expensive one prove the cheaper one is under priced or does the cheaper one prove the more expensive one is overpriced.


James Risner wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
By my count it's still around 6k because replication of Keen should be 3k at most, arms are affiliated with using weapons, there is no such thing as increasing the cost for being in "non-affiliated slot" it just says it generally shouldn't be there, but it IS. At a push it's 7k
Your price of 7k for continuous doesn't match their value of the effect at 1/day as 4k. So if they allowed it continuous, it would be at minimum 12k (3/day is usually the same price as unlimited.)

Well Paizo can do whatever they like, it may not match with any consistent rules because someone just decreed that is the way it is without needing any damn reason or consistency.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
"spell level 1, CL1, but the spell is 1 minute per level so multiply by two" if after all that you then have to see if any other magic item does the same thing and then price according to that.

You have the order wrong, you check other items and then only when not found you go to the chart.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
may not match with any consistent rules because someone just decreed that is the way it is without needing any damn reason or consistency.

Actually, it is very consistent and has good reasons. Items are priced such that you have to consider whether or not to buy the item. If an item is "required", it is priced incorrectly. The only exempted items are the big 6 which the monsters are designed around a PC having.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
First to address the implication this is a true-strike sword... no. Not even close. Please could we have a sticky on a true-strike sword being brought up EVERY TIME something hugely over-priced is introduced.

The constantly-active true strike example exists solely to point out the flaw in having always-on first level spells at the price the guidelines would indicate if they didn't have the "compare with similar items" clause. That's why it keeps coming up as an example - it's the perfect thing to demonstrate that there's more to spell-like magic items than following a formula.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Feats don't have price equivalents. You have to use common sense.

You say that, but it's just not true. I mean, apart from the feats that you can buy outright, you can get Weapon Focus (longbow). If you could get an item that gives you +1 to hit with a longbow, then that's placing a GP value on a feat. You can take Improved Critical (longbow). If there's an item that does the same thing, you can rate that item as being a feat. Old-school BoFA was improved critical plus weapon focus plus a perception bonus. If someone didn't really want to fit improved critical in... well, they didn't have to. Buy some bracers. Neat.

Greater bracers of archery may be a bit overpriced (I actually believe they are), but for an archer they are about the same as getting two and a half feats. And they stack with said feats, if you ever buy them. Having crunched a bunch of numbers, I know the damage boost from the old-school BoFA is slightly smaller than the damage boost from GBoA. Slightly. Question: should you buy GBoA and improved critical, or should you buy old-school BoFA and weapon specialisation? Obviously, the answer is the latter, because it's 21K gold cheaper and a feat either way. Pricing isn't an exact science, but a 21K difference is big enough to spot.

As an aside, the question of how GP-valuable a feat is is quite awkward, but interesting (to me at least). A +1 on a weapon is +1 to hit (a feat) and +1 damage (half a feat, see weapon specialisation), and a way of getting around DR (difficult to rate), and a minor boost to weapon durability (small, but really difficult to rate). So each +1 is more than a feat, yay. But each +1 also costs more. Does this mean that late-levels feats are more expensive than early levels feats?
Edited to add: this explains why Keen, despite being really cool, isn't actually a good idea before you hit +5. It's 1 feat-equivalent, instead of more than 1.5 feats, in addition to problems stacking it rather than its feat)
Still, any way you slice it, getting a +1 equivalent, or a feat equivalent, or even a half-a-plus-one equivalent, on a slot you weren't using and that sits outside the squared costs tree is a good thing. And when it happens at a price that makes everyone (even people who didn't particularly care about that weapon type!*) pay attention, then it might be too good. Separate bonuses that stack are cheaper than single bonuses.
Sometimes I think Pathfinder is a game about adding up a lot of small numbers to make a giant number that beats the encounter.

*old BoFA was on my buy list for every character with a bow, regardless of their primary weapon or combat style. I'll probably go for wands now, but I thought 4K was a really good deal.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

Feats don't have price equivalents. You have to use common sense.

+3 perception would be +900gp

I love this logic.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:

There are examples of feats you can buy with gold, all of them being no-requirement ones with a price of 5,000 gp. (Endurance, Alertness, IUS)

So at the very least, the (old) Bracers of Falcon's Aim should have had a price of 5000 + 2000*1.5 + 900*1.5 = 9350 gp.

But the relevant feat has a requirement of +9 BAB and is therefore stronger than these examples for 5000 gp.

Which just begs the question. Why EVER bother with spells equivalent for any magic items?

You can't use them, apparently, if you have to go "well it's spell level 1, CL1, but the spell is 1 minute per level so multiply by two" if after all that you then have to see if any other magic item does the same thing and then price according to that.

So just forget about the whole table, just go straight to looking for other items that do the same sort of things and apply multipliers to them. No matter what spell it's replicating the pricing will be revised and re-calculated on what other magic items that do similar things.

This idea obviously totally devalues magic items relative to actual spells because spells can't ever be better than enhancement bonuses.

From years of magic item crafting, I can share with you the pearl of all the wisdom I have accumulated.

Stay away from continuous magic items based on static bonus spells.

The table is good for making scrolls, wands, and different variants of the already existing Big 6, and allows you to de-construct existing items.

The spells which you should try to base your new items on should be those with an effect not found in the table. Like magic makeup based on "Youthful Appearance".
And "Bed of Iron", which would allow you to sleep in heavy armor without getting fatigued.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
But there's a question of supremacy. IF two magic items do similar things but for different prices does the more expensive one prove the cheaper one is under priced or does the cheaper one prove the more expensive one is overpriced.

Follow the table. That should be enough. A +3 Deflection bonus to AC has a known price, regardless if you can find a spell which would do it for a lesser price.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thistledown wrote:
The best I see is the Amulet of the Blooded (Destined), 10k gp. "+2 luck bonus on all saving throws and to AC during surprise rounds or any time he is otherwise unaware of an attack."

So your advice is to take an item that costs significantly more, only works situationally, and keeps me from getting a +5 bonus to AC (amulet of natural armor)?

How is that not a trap?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The problem with the luck ac bonus was that a fighter could use it to get AC 36 by level 7 and 24,000 gp.

That is a problem for the underlying system.

Killing the item (and luck bonus in general) is a good thing. Moving the item to say a body slot so it doesn't work with armor would help monk's and other unarmored folk without pushing fighters to 36.

Shadow Lodge

*sells jingasa, buys dusty rose prism*

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

TOZ wrote:
*sells jingasa, buys dusty rose prism*

I did exactly that last night in a PFS game.


Lucy_Valentine wrote:

You say that, but it's just not true. I mean, apart from the feats that you can buy outright, you can get Weapon Focus (longbow). If you could get an item that gives you +1 to hit with a longbow, then that's placing a GP value on a feat. You can take Improved Critical (longbow). If there's an item that does the same thing, you can rate that item as being a feat. Old-school BoFA was improved critical plus weapon focus plus a perception bonus. If someone didn't really want to fit improved critical in... well, they didn't have to. Buy some bracers. Neat.

Greater bracers of archery may be a bit overpriced (I actually believe they are), but for an archer they are about the same as getting two and a half feats. And they stack with said feats, if you ever buy them. Having crunched a bunch of numbers, I know the damage boost from the old-school BoFA is slightly smaller than the damage boost from GBoA. Slightly. Question: should you buy GBoA and improved critical, or should you buy old-school BoFA and weapon specialisation? Obviously, the answer is the latter, because it's 21K gold cheaper and a feat either way. Pricing isn't an exact science, but a 21K difference is big enough to spot.

As an aside, the question of how GP-valuable a feat is is quite awkward,...

We still haven't gotten anywhere to find there is a feat that has a similar (but not actually the same) effect as a wondrous item.

Selecting a feat doesn't have a price.

The price of Bracers of Falcon's Aim is in question.

"If there's an item that does the same thing, you can rate that item as being a feat."

Bracers of Falcon's Aim would be that item. Yet people are picking and choosing which items to consider. Remember, BoFA was not in itself a problem, it was just that compared to Lesser Bracers of Archery its obvious which was better.

"If someone didn't really want to fit improved critical in... well, they didn't have to. Buy some bracers. Neat."

Neat is the word. Game breaking it isn't, which is the term others have used. It's not even unbalanced. It's just L,BoA were not competitively priced.

"Having crunched a bunch of numbers, I know the damage boost from the old-school BoFA is slightly smaller than the damage boost from GBoA."

Damage?!?!?

"As an aside, the question of how GP-valuable a feat is is quite awkward, but interesting (to me at least)."

It isn't to me, it's more than an apples and oranges comparison, it's an apples and abstract concept of cubist painting comparison, they are two totally different things. One is something you buy with gold or make with gold equivalent and the other is something you get from levelling up. This is a wild goose chase from a guideline designed to stop people making a sword of truestrike for 2000gp opens up the most baseless speculation of the dollar value for each feat and each possible bonus that's like a feat.

Think about this, it was to stop people abusing a +20 bonus for 2000gp... now we're seeing an item which gives a +1 bonus be treated like it should cost close to 20'000gp!

It's worthless, none of this remotely comes to explaining how a 1/day command activated Aspect of the Falcon for one minute for 4000gp and take up your wrists slots is remotely worth it.

What's interesting about the game is you have many parallel but SEPARATE economies, what you get from class abilities, what you get from feats and what you get from buying.


James Risner wrote:

The problem with the luck ac bonus was that a fighter could use it to get AC 36 by level 7 and 24,000 gp.

That is a problem for the underlying system.

Killing the item (and luck bonus in general) is a good thing. Moving the item to say a body slot so it doesn't work with armor would help monk's and other unarmored folk without pushing fighters to 36.

That Fighter with the 36 AC would be carrying a giant neon sign that says "Ignore me!" or "Save me for last!" Because any NPC with half a brain will not be attacking them after a couple rounds of absolute whiffs, especially if they rolled 18's and 19's and still missed.

Also, if that Fighter can reach 36 AC, then consider the rest of his character build. He probably doesn't do a whole lot of damage, or have a lot of to-hit. He probably can't use Combat Maneuvers too well. He probably can't move too fast, nor might he have extremely good Saves or CMB/CMD. Touch AC can still be a big problem for someone who's wearing Heavy Armor, even if he has Deflection, Luck, Insight, etc.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

That Fighter with the 36 AC would be carrying a giant neon sign that says "Ignore me!"

Also, if that Fighter can reach 36 AC, then consider the rest of his character build. He probably doesn't do a whole lot of damage, or have a lot of to-hit. He probably can't use Combat Maneuvers too well. He probably can't move too fast, nor might he have extremely good Saves or CMB/CMD. Touch AC can still be a big problem for someone who's wearing Heavy Armor, even if he has Deflection, Luck, Insight, etc.

I've played that character, Roland, to 11th level. When I'm out with friends, like last night playing a level 5 PFS game, they still bring up how much that character annoyed the GM. When you annoy the GM apparently you get attacked a lot.

Roland was a AC 35 (at level 7) guy using a Sundering Adamantine Temple Sword dealing 1d8+13 with Greater Sunder to break (usually in one hit) just about every enemy armor or weapons was "hit on a 2" with a +23 Sunder CMB.

If you can't hit us because I broke your weapons, then you can't harm us.

In the cases where the enemy was a creature without weapons or armor, I'd fall back to grapple with +20 Greater Grapple, which also usually got me there.


James Risner wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

That Fighter with the 36 AC would be carrying a giant neon sign that says "Ignore me!"

Also, if that Fighter can reach 36 AC, then consider the rest of his character build. He probably doesn't do a whole lot of damage, or have a lot of to-hit. He probably can't use Combat Maneuvers too well. He probably can't move too fast, nor might he have extremely good Saves or CMB/CMD. Touch AC can still be a big problem for someone who's wearing Heavy Armor, even if he has Deflection, Luck, Insight, etc.

I've played that character, Roland, to 11th level. When I'm out with friends, like last night playing a level 5 PFS game, they still bring up how much that character annoyed the GM. When you annoy the GM apparently you get attacked a lot.

Roland was a AC 35 (at level 7) guy using a Sundering Adamantine Temple Sword dealing 1d8+13 with Greater Sunder to break (usually in one hit) just about every enemy armor or weapons was "hit on a 2" with a +23 Sunder CMB.

If you can't hit us because I broke your weapons, then you can't harm us.

In the cases where the enemy was a creature without weapons or armor, I'd fall back to grapple with +20 Greater Grapple, which also usually got me there.

I'm surprised you actually managed to acquire a Greater Grapple feat; that usually requires a fair amount of Dexterity, as well as Improved Unarmed Strike, and Improved Grapple, and at Level 7, no less.

The thing is, Grapple is usually unreliable because enemies are going to be Huge size or larger most of the time, and Sunder requires manufactured items, which a lot of Huge size or larger creatures don't use. Their size also exponentially increases the strength to hit them. Not to mention, breaking potentially valuable loot. (Which doesn't matter in PFS.)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

At level 7 I had:
STR 18 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 11 WIS 8 CHA 7
Half-Orc (+2 STR) | Shaman's Apprentice (Endurance) | Gatecrasher (Sunder bonus)
1 Barbarian 1 Guntank (Heavy Armor and Tower Shield proficiency)
1 Power Attack
2 Monk 1 Maneuver Master (pre-errata for no Full Plate) Improved Sunder
3 Tribal Scars (6 HP & +5 movement)
3 Monk 2 Improved Grapple
4 Fighter 1 Lore Warden Weapon Focus
4 +1 STR
5 Fighter 2 Dodge
5 (retrained later)
6 Fighter 3
7 Fighter 4 (Weapon Spec)
7 Greater Sunder

Retrain 3rd level to Greater Grapple

Also had an Ochre Rhomboid for Grabbing Style

Retrained HP 7 times and picked 4 FCB +1 HP
7th level HP was 77 HP (14+10+6*6+7+6+4)

My weakness were touch attacks (AC 12), Low HP (77), low speed (25) and will saves (+5). But I was never ignored.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The thing is, Grapple is usually unreliable because enemies are going to be Huge size or larger most of the time, and Sunder requires manufactured items, which a lot of Huge size or larger creatures don't use.

That made me ponder, so I whipped up a

2 minute script:
pdfgrep '[tT][iI][eE][rR].*7[^a-zA-Z0-9]*11' PZOPSS0???E.pdf | awk -F: '{print $1}' | grep PZOPSS | sort | uniq | tr '\12' '\0' | xargs -0 pdfgrep CMD | tr '#' ' ' | sed -e 's/^.*CMD \([0-9]*\)/CMD \1#/' | tr '#' '\12' | sed -e 's/CMD $/CMD 0/' | grep 'CMD.[0-9]' | awk '{s+=$2;c++}END{print "Average "s/c" of "c" entries"}'

If you know unix/linux/macos you get this, otherwise please ignore (it calculates the average CMD of level 7-11 PFS scenarios)

Average 23.4474 of 532 entries

So +20 is 5+ for Grapple on EVERY monster big or small on average and Sunder of 23 is "hits everything on a 2 on average".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hey, I understood that.

Wouldn't you rather have the mode instead of the average?


James Risner wrote:
will +5

So you were really good at grappling and sundering your own party?


TOZ wrote:
*sells jingasa, buys dusty rose prism*

Buffering cap. The +1 ac is nice, not dying from the x4 crit is amazing though.

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:
TOZ wrote:
*sells jingasa, buys dusty rose prism*
Buffering cap. The +1 ac is nice, not dying from the x4 crit is amazing though.

And you can buy the dusty rose prism to keep your buffering cap company ^w^

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

DominusMegadeus wrote:
James Risner wrote:
will +5
So you were really good at grappling and sundering your own party?

I failed a save twice that took me out of the fight in the life of the character.

But I also had a (also errated) cap of the free thinker.

True to be told, Roland was many times errata:
Monk Maneuver Master no longer works with armor.
Cap of the Free Thinker changed to "1/day reroll failed".
Feather Step boots changed to 1/day
Jingasa changed to deflection which I already had via ring.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Wouldn't you rather have the mode instead of the average?

Mode is 17, so VERY good for me.

All of the entries sorted by most common on top:
31 CMD 17
28 CMD 23
28 CMD 18
27 CMD 20
26 CMD 25
26 CMD 22
26 CMD 19
25 CMD 27
23 CMD 21
23 CMD 15
22 CMD 30
22 CMD 16
21 CMD 31
20 CMD 28
19 CMD 26
17 CMD 29
17 CMD 24
14 CMD 35
11 CMD 13
10 CMD 34
10 CMD 33
10 CMD 12
10 CMD 0
9 CMD 38
9 CMD 36
9 CMD 32
9 CMD 14
6 CMD 37
5 CMD 39
5 CMD 11
3 CMD 10
2 CMD 9
2 CMD 41
1 CMD 49
1 CMD 48
1 CMD 47
1 CMD 46
1 CMD 44
1 CMD 43
1 CMD 40


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
The problem with the luck ac bonus was that a fighter could use it to get AC 36 by level 7 and 24,000 gp.

And this is a problem over the fighter who has AC 35 by level 7 how?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ravingdork wrote:
James Risner wrote:
The problem with the luck ac bonus was that a fighter could use it to get AC 36 by level 7 and 24,000 gp.
And this is a problem over the fighter who has AC 35 by level 7 how?

If it works for the fighter, it is bad (breaks the whole math of the system if anyone can reach 35-40 AC)

If it doesn't work for the fighter, it narrows the gap between the fighter and the non-fighter AC. Improves the game as opposed to harms.


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Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Damage?!?!?

Yeah, damage. You know, because one of them added to-hit and damage, and the other one added to to-hit and crit range, thereby adding to damage.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
We still haven't gotten anywhere to find there is a feat that has a similar (but not actually the same) effect as a wondrous item.

You mean apart from the ones people already mentioned? Okay, here's a few more: Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude, vs cloak of resistance +2.

Fleet, vs Boots of +10 land speed.
Skill focus (skill) vs one of the many items of +5 competence bonus
I could go and hunt through the wondrous items and get a longer list, but seriously, how many do you need before you note that two different forms of currency can be used to purchase the same effects, and that that implies an exchange rate?
The exchange rate concept isn't a bad idea - in fact, if the people designing feats and magic items don't have a note telling them what the exchange rate is supposed to be and how it scales, I will be slightly disappointed with them.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Remember, BoFA was not in itself a problem,

Wasn't it? I have non-archer characters who wanted to buy it just for the moments when they have to shoot a bow. It was my default wrist-slot item to get for any character who owned a bow, which considering I like elves, is basically all of them.

That seems inconsistent with the rest of magic item design to me.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
It's worthless, none of this remotely comes to explaining how a 1/day command activated Aspect of the Falcon for one minute for 4000gp and take up your wrists slots is remotely worth it.

Oh, it doesn't. I agree that the 4K for 1/day is overpriced - I mean, wands exist. I just think that 4K for constant was ludicrously underpriced and I'm surprised that anyone is surprised that it got hit with a nerfbat.

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