Planning on eventually stacking some enhancements (Distance, Returning, and Throwing) on a rapier to make it a combination melee/thrown weapon and, in conjunction with a blinkback belt and some feats, get my inspired blade swashbuckler ranged combat capability without mucking about with a bunch of different weapons and swapping them around in the middle of combat.
My question is, will Fencing Grace still allow me to add to my Dexterity bonus to damage, even if the rapier is being used as a thrown weapon instead of a melee weapon.
On a related note, before his rapier is enhanced, he'll be tossing daggers. Which is the best feat for flinging daggers (and later, the rapier), Quick Draw or Rapid Shot? I've checked the boards, and it seems there's no subject or discussion about those two feats that doesn't also involve TWF (which I'm not using).
It's unclear, but I would assume Fencing Grace does not work when the weapon is thrown.
So, with throwing daggers and before you get a blink back belt you would need multiple daggers to make more than 1 attack, and to be able to draw them. So, you could use rapid shot but it would require you to have quickdraw already to draw and throw the next dagger.
Thrown weapon isn't a one-handed weapon when throw, but rather a ranged attack with a thrown weapon.
Thrown weapons keep handedness or there wouldn't be a two handed thrower feat: "Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus."
For the feat to work, you must be able to "throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon".
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As a note, Starry Grace is specifically designed for a throwing weapon and functions similarly. It also does not have the one-handed line.
Thanks for the answers about Fencing Grace. Never hurts to check before getting locked onto a prospective build, only to learn that one little detail renders it all useless. Guess I'll have to add the Agile property to it as well if I want to effectively stab enemies at a distance with my sword.
Starry Grace is, sadly, of no use my inspired blade, as it mentions the starknife being the required weapon. But thank you pointing it out.
Well people were pointing it as grounds to why it doesn't work.
But for what it's worth, you could build an Flying Blade swashbuckler.
With Starry Grace you can be decent at melee and throwing starknives.
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Instead of spending +3 on Throwing, Distance, and Returning you might consider spending +2 on Sharding. The downside is that you will only have a range increment of 10 ft, but the upside is that you can replace any or all of your melee attacks with ranged ones. And unlike with Returning you don't have to wait for the rapier to come back so you are ready to make AoO's.
Edit: And no need for Quickdraw. ;)
You pretty much have to take Quick Draw if you're planning to make throwing attacks at all; how else are the weapons going to get into your hand to throw? Rapid Shot simply means that you can make an extra ranged attack per round. If you don't have Quick Draw, there's no way you can make more than one ranged attack per round with a Blinkback Belt.
Using your rapier as a melee weapon to avoid 'mucking about' switching weapons seems a bit odd, considering that a rapier is a one-handed weapon. You can simply Quick Draw and Rapid Shot daggers with your other hand while holding your rapier. If using a buckler, it's a free action to just shift your rapier into your buckler hand while throwing and then shift it back. Cost-wise, enchanting your main weapon with a bunch of extra throwing stuff and/or taking feats to be able to throw it is going to end up painfully inefficient compared to just having a proper throwing weapon as well.
Apologies if I'm being discouraging, I just thought I'd point out some of this stuff.
Starry Grace is, sadly, of no use my inspired blade, as it mentions the starknife being the required weapon. But thank you pointing it out.
Oops, my excellent reading comprehension skills are to blame here. My bad.
Instead of spending +3 on Throwing, Distance, and Returning you might consider spending +2 on Sharding. The downside is that you will only have a range increment of 10 ft, but the upside is that you can replace any or all of your melee attacks with ranged ones. And unlike with Returning you don't have to wait for the rapier to come back so you are ready to make AoO's.
Edit: And no need for Quickdraw. ;)
Absolutely brilliant, thanks! I'm going to assume, in the absence of anything in the ability stating otherwise, that it has the usual maximum of five range increments for being a thrown weapon, which is no worse than a dagger or the Throwing property. And nothing in ability that I can see prohibits the use of ranged combat feats either, so that's another plus. But I can still add the Distance property?
You pretty much have to take Quick Draw if you're planning to make throwing attacks at all; how else are the weapons going to get into your hand to throw? Rapid Shot simply means that you can make an extra ranged attack per round. If you don't have Quick Draw, there's no way you can make more than one ranged attack per round with a Blinkback Belt.
Using your rapier as a melee weapon to avoid 'mucking about' switching weapons seems a bit odd, considering that a rapier is a one-handed weapon. You can simply Quick Draw and Rapid Shot daggers with your other hand while holding your rapier. If using a buckler, it's a free action to just shift your rapier into your buckler hand while throwing and then shift it back. Cost-wise, enchanting your main weapon with a bunch of extra throwing stuff and/or taking feats to be able to throw it is going to end up painfully inefficient compared to just having a proper throwing weapon as well.
Apologies if I'm being discouraging, I just thought I'd point out some of this stuff.
Not at all, you're raising excellent points here.
Fencing Grace states that my other hand must be unoccupied to gain the benefit, with the sole exception of a swordmaster's flair. Holding the flair, however, means I can no longer use that hand for dagger tossing, or switching the rapier over to free the first hand for tossing either. So if I still want ranged attacks and follow-up melee attacks without juggling a bunch of stuff, make the rapier itself a thrown weapon with the right properties.
There is a feat (Mixed Combat) that allows for sheathing weapons rapidly, but it's 3rd party and may not be permitted. Plus, it is a feat, and my build is getting a bit tight on those already.
Further, class abilities make the rapier my go-to weapon, and very few of those abilities make mention of melee or ranged in context of allowed weapons. Precise Strike actually calls out thrown one-handed piercing weapons as permitted, in fact. Last, the rapier offers better damage and crit range than daggers.
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For some of the Swordmaster's Flair items it's an issue, though for Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf (which is arguably by far the best of them) you can just grasp the scarf when activating the ability and then let it go.
Rapier focused class abilities are an issue if going Inspired Blade, though Inspired Blade isn't necessary for a rapier Swashbuckler. It's very attractive, though never gaining panache from a killing blow can be way more of a penalty than it seems like on paper.
Anyhow, Sharding pretty much solves everything.
Since you're looking at going enchantment-heavy, you could take Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bond to be able to enchant your own weapon with Arcane Bond. Since you don't have a Caster Level you can't just take Craft Magic Arms and Armor; but Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bond treats you as if you had caster levels for all Arcane Bond purposes (at a -2). You still need to pass the crafting DC, though that shouldn't be difficult by around level 8 if you've got Spellcraft, some INT, and maybe a little extra help from a potion of INT or something. It costs two feats to get there though, and some investment in Spellcraft.
For some of the Swordmaster's Flair items it's an issue, though for Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf (which is arguably by far the best of them) you can just grasp the scarf when activating the ability and then let it go.
Rapier focused class abilities are an issue if going Inspired Blade, though Inspired Blade isn't necessary for a rapier Swashbuckler. It's very attractive, though never gaining panache from a killing blow can be way more of a penalty than it seems like on paper.
Anyhow, Sharding pretty much solves everything.
Since you're looking at going enchantment-heavy, you could take Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bond to be able to enchant your own weapon with Arcane Bond. Since you don't have a Caster Level you can't just take Craft Magic Arms and Armor; but Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bond treats you as if you had caster levels for all Arcane Bond purposes (at a -2). You still need to pass the crafting DC, though that shouldn't be difficult by around level 8 if you've got Spellcraft, some INT, and maybe a little extra help from a potion of INT or something. It costs two feats to get there though, and some investment in Spellcraft.
Not an option in this campaign, but I'm marking your advice as something for my next character to make use of.
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Thrown weapon isn't a one-handed weapon when throw, but rather a ranged attack with a thrown weapon.Thrown weapons keep handedness or there wouldn't be a two handed thrower feat: "Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus."
For the feat to work, you must be able to "throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon".
My point was that if you throw a one-handed weapon, you made a ranged throwing attack, not a one-handed weapon attack. Nothing that helps a melee attack (like "when using a one-handed weapon" would trigger on the thrown attack with a one-handed thrown weapon.)
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My point was that if you throw a one-handed weapon, you made a ranged throwing attack, not a one-handed weapon attack.
Why do you think those are mutually exclusive? It is both a thrown weapon attack and a one-handed weapon attack. What it is not is a melee attack.
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Why do you think those are mutually exclusive? It is both a thrown weapon attack and a one-handed weapon attack. What it is not is a melee attack.
Melee weapons are classified as light, one-handed, or two-handed.
Some of those can be used as a thrown weapon making them a ranged attack.Their melee designation determines the speed and method they can be thrown.
All abilities are written to benefit "one-handed weapon" refer to the weapon type classification. So if you are not making a melee attack, then nothing that benefits a one-handed weapon will enhance your thrown trident.
You can use two-weapon fighting to throw two daggers in one round, one from each hand, without iterative attacks, but with the usual two-weapon fighting penalties. You cannot do the same with two bows.
I think it is pretty apparent that the reason you can do one but not the other is that the dagger (when thrown) is a one-handed ranged weapon whilst the bow is a two-handed ranged weapon.
So if you are not making a melee attack, then nothing that benefits a one-handed weapon will enhance your thrown trident.
I'm still not seeing a justification for that. At what point does it say the weapon no longer qualifies as a x-handed weapon?
And it's not like we don't have other examples of one-handed and two-handed ranged weapons. Just look at firearms.
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The whole thesis that they are still one-handed is based on no rule. We have weapon classifications, but we don't have a rule saying that a weapon that fits into both classifications count as both. Until we do, they shouldn't count.
Also FiddlersGreen and Melkiador, I'm not saying they are not ranged weapons that work in one hand. Or even that they are not "one-handed thrown" weapons. I'm simply saying they don't count as attacking with a "one-handed weapon" which is a classification of melee weapons and the phrase used on nearly all melee abilities like slashing that care about melee weapons.
The whole thesis that they are still one-handed is based on no rule.
They are listed as such in the weapons table.
James, I see where you are coming from, but you leave yourself in a difficult position. Under your approach to the rules, if I were to use a frying pan as an improvised weapon, is it not a one-handed weapon because it is not classified as such under any item list? Is a dagger unusable with any feats for ranged attacks because it is classified as a light weapon rather than a ranged weapon on the weapons table? If I use my bow as an improvised weapon in melee, do get the benefit of point blank shot because it is classified as a ranged weapon?
Or do we take the plain-english approach that a one-handed weapon is simply a weapon that can be wielded in one hand, and a ranged weapon is one that you use to make a ranged attack, and that based on the situation and the manner of usage, those categories are flexible?
The whole thesis that they are still one-handed is based on no rule. We have weapon classifications, but we don't have a rule saying that a weapon that fits into both classifications count as both. Until we do, they shouldn't count.
It's a rather peculiar line of logic to argue that there needs to be a special rule or ruling for something to remain what it already is.
If you throw a one-handed weapon, then it's a one-handed weapon that's being used to make a ranged attack. If something benefits a melee attack with a one-handed weapon, then it doesn't work. If something benefits an attack with a one-handed weapon, then it does. It's almost shockingly straightforward.
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A) If something benefits a melee attack with a one-handed weapon, then it doesn't work.
B) If something benefits an attack with a one-handed weapon, then it does.
I don't think there is an example of the second case (B), do you have one? Because I'm pretty sure all examples of things that benefit one-handed melee weapons are the first case (A).
A) If something benefits a melee attack with a one-handed weapon, then it doesn't work.
B) If something benefits an attack with a one-handed weapon, then it does.I don't think there is an example of the second case (B), do you have one? Because I'm pretty sure all examples of things that benefit one-handed melee weapons are the first case (A).
Would a PC that's "who is smaller than the weapon's intended wielder" lose the benefit of the Effortless Lace's reducing of the attack roll penalty by 2 because they threw the weapon? After all, it only works on a "one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon" and somehow you're saying it loses that then thrown...
This seems to be a case of b. If must be put on a melee weapon but the attack doesn't have to be melee.
A) If something benefits a melee attack with a one-handed weapon, then it doesn't work.
B) If something benefits an attack with a one-handed weapon, then it does.I don't think there is an example of the second case (B), do you have one? Because I'm pretty sure all examples of things that benefit one-handed melee weapons are the first case (A).
Trying to shift the discussion away from logical interpretation to an example-hunt that's headed for arguments by circular logic is a little shady, but fine.
"Benefit: Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus."
If we follow your assumption that a one-handed weapon can no longer qualify for effects that benefit a 'one-handed weapon' when it's being thrown, then Two-Handed Thrower is meaningless and pointless.
Absolutely brilliant, thanks! I'm going to assume, in the absence of anything in the ability stating otherwise, that it has the usual maximum of five range increments for being a thrown weapon, which is no worse than a dagger or the Throwing property. And nothing in ability that I can see prohibits the use of ranged combat feats either, so that's another plus. But I can still add the Distance property?Instead of spending +3 on Throwing, Distance, and Returning you might consider spending +2 on Sharding. The downside is that you will only have a range increment of 10 ft, but the upside is that you can replace any or all of your melee attacks with ranged ones. And unlike with Returning you don't have to wait for the rapier to come back so you are ready to make AoO's.
Edit: And no need for Quickdraw. ;)
I'm glad this was helpful. I really like sharding, especially since a 6th level Occultist can use Legacy Weapon to add it to any weapon. It's a nice solution for melee combatants that want a little switch-hitting ability without making major investments into feats and magic items.
I don't believe that you can add distance because, without something like the throwing ability, the rapier doesn't qualify asa ranged weapon. And distance + throwing + sharding is a +4 enhancement equivalent so it's too expensive for most characters. Something like a distance + sharding dagger should work fine, though.
The whole thesis that they are still one-handed is based on no rule. We have weapon classifications, but we don't have a rule saying that a weapon that fits into both classifications count as both. Until we do, they shouldn't count.
Also FiddlersGreen and Melkiador, I'm not saying they are not ranged weapons that work in one hand. Or even that they are not "one-handed thrown" weapons. I'm simply saying they don't count as attacking with a "one-handed weapon" which is a classification of melee weapons and the phrase used on nearly all melee abilities like slashing that care about melee weapons.
From the PRD under equipment:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
So weapons don't lose their classification when thrown.
This seems to imply that Fencing Grace is a go if I'm flinging the rapier at targets instead of swinging it, since the feat says nothing about making melee attacks, merely that the rapier be wielded one-handed (which I'm surely doing if throwing it at stuff).
Hmmm, more thought fodder.
The whole thesis that they are still one-handed is based on no rule. We have weapon classifications, but we don't have a rule saying that a weapon that fits into both classifications count as both. Until we do, they shouldn't count.
Also FiddlersGreen and Melkiador, I'm not saying they are not ranged weapons that work in one hand. Or even that they are not "one-handed thrown" weapons. I'm simply saying they don't count as attacking with a "one-handed weapon" which is a classification of melee weapons and the phrase used on nearly all melee abilities like slashing that care about melee weapons.
From the PRD under equipment:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
So weapons don't lose their classification when thrown.
This seems to imply that Fencing Grace is a go if I'm flinging the rapier at targets instead of swinging it, since the feat says nothing about making melee attacks, merely that the rapier be wielded one-handed (which I'm surely doing if throwing it at stuff).
Hmmm, more thought fodder.
You might chew on this line from Sharding while you are at it.
The duplicate gains a range increment of 10 feet for this purpose, but uses the same proficiency and otherwise functions the same as the original weapon.