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Not everyone gets the rules right all the time. I've played a Bonekeep I session with a GM who refused to allow "take 10" when not in combat to search an area. So I had to roll d20's for each square. We stop watched the rolling, and it took up a little over 45 minutes of our 5 hour slot rolling 20 sided dice out of combat.
That is an example of the GM not following the rules as we read the RAW, but the entire table coped with the issue and worked within the GM's RAW.
Eh, it seems the whole table was still stuck in 3.5 Search Land. When you make a Perception check nothing's stopping you from observing a larger area. That's why the penalty chart exists. Just pick your vantage point and apply them accordingly.
Oh gods, I remember when two local players tried to do the same thing. Boy WHAT FUN!
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The ability to make a fist is not form dependant.Of course it is. There are millions of species that cannot make a fist.
There are dwarf monks. There are elf monks. If the ability was form dependent this would not be possible.This would imply that you are reading 'form dependent' as 'possible for that form ONLY'... fist making isn't limited to humans so it is not 'form dependent'. I don't think that's a plausible reading of the intent... very few abilities are available only to a single type of creature. Rather, things are 'form dependent' if some forms can do them and others cannot. Anything that the new form after a polymorph cannot do is lost.
I'm reading it means it as something rooted in the creatures biology, which this isn't.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision),
Dwarves are not born being able to to flurry of blows. Neither are elves or anything else really. Class abilities are learned, NOT rooted in biology, thats WHY they're class features. You need to learn it, and not every member of your species learns it. If elves raise a baby dwarf he still sees in the dark. He probably doesn't learn grandpas penchant for stonework.
The alternative is that form dependant means anything you do with your body, which is silly, or you wouldn't be able to turn into an elf and still cast spells. You loose all abilities that depend on form and get back only what the spell gives you. Alter self for examplel gives you darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet....not the ability to cast spells even though it involves wriggling your newly acquired fingers. Obviously you can still cast spells because the polymorph section lists calls out that ability as being retained even if you're a dragon.
That you can't flurry of blows because a snake can't flurry of blows is both a subjective call and a completely different argument. That train may get to the station but it definitely doesn't pass through here.
You can certainly make good arguments against animals using unarmed strikes but that line does not remotely imply what you think it does.It does if interpreted the way I am doing. Which has the advantage that it doesn't lead to 'earthworms can make fists' and other clearly false results.
Just because it gets the result you want does not mean that the argument is good. This is absolutely horrible.
You are making the sub subjective call that creatures without fists can't use unarmed strikes. If you're doing that, own up to it and do it, don't pretend its dropping out of a polymorph rules reading. Because you're chucking the baby out with the bathwater here. Since polymorph specifically loses form dependent abilities and does not grant them back unless explicitly called out if punching is a form dependent ability a dwarf monk polymorphed into an elf loses it just like he loses his dark vision.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You are making the subjective call that creatures without fists cannot make unarmed strikes
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See the natural attacks by size table for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.
There is even a rule saying creatures can.
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I'm readingit means it as something rooted in the creatures biology, which this isn't.
Hands are rooted in biology. Honest. They are.
Dwarves are not born being able to to flurry of blows. Neither are elves or anything else really. Class abilities are learned, NOT rooted in biology, thats WHY they're class features.
It is both. No amount of practice will ever allow you to throw a punch if you do not have limbs. You need both the training AND the biology to make use of that training.
Familiars get all of their bonded master's skill ranks... learned information. However, most cannot use some of those skills because they lack the physical form necessary. Knowledge / skill is not enough. The proper biology is also required.
The alternative is that form dependant means anything you do with your body, which is silly, or you wouldn't be able to turn into an elf and still cast spells.
That's not the alternative I have been describing at all. If you change from a human to an elf then you still have hands and a voice which you can use to enact somatic and verbal components... your new form can still cast spells.
Your argument, that anything 'learned' always transfers over, would take us directly back to acrobatic trees and spell-casting rocks. Which then have to be prevented by essentially applying the same rule I am using in the first place.
That you can't flurry of blows because a snake can't flurry of blows
Because the ability to enact a flurry of blows is dependent on form. By definition. Otherwise, the snake WOULD be able to do it... and the rock... and the tree... if it didn't depend on form then the form they took would not matter, they would be able to do it in any form. That's what 'dependent' means.
You are making the sub subjective call that creatures without fists can't use unarmed strikes. If you're doing that, own up to it and do it, don't pretend its dropping out of a polymorph rules reading.
Creatures without the ability to attack with fists and the other unarmed strike types listed for the monk ability... and that is absolutely coming out of the polymorph rules... and basic logic. A tree cannot use flurry of blows. Not because I want to be mean... but because trees cannot physically do that. Thus, anyone polymorphed into a tree loses that ability.
Because you're chucking the baby out with the bathwater here. Since polymorph specifically loses form dependent abilities and does not grant them back unless explicitly called out if punching is a form dependent ability a dwarf monk polymorphed into an elf loses it just like he loses his dark vision.
Nope. That is a straw man argument that you have repeatedly attempted to rewrite my position into, but it directly contradicts everything I have said right back to my first post in this thread.
Form dependent abilities are only lost if the new form would lose them. Otherwise, a half-orc that polymorphed in to a different half-orc would lose dark vision.
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Form dependent abilities are only lost if the new form would lose them.
Then you have decided that snakes cannot unarmed strike. THAT is the ultimate basis for your argument, NOT the polymorph rules. That decision fully stands or falls on its own, you don't have to pretend you're running it through the polymorph rules because you're not.
Snakes cannot unarmed strike------> The polymorph rules-------> dwarf Shapshifted into a snake cannot unarmed strike
Elves can unarmed strike----> the polymorph rules---> Dwarf shapeshifted into an elf can unarmed strike.
snakes can unarmed stirke----> The polymorph rules----? dwarf turned into a snake can unarmed strike.
The polymorph rules are completely superfluous to your argument.
Otherwise, a half-orc that polymorphed in to a different half-orc would lose dark vision.
Its entirely possible for something weird like that to happen. A dragon using form of the dragon for example
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Or heck, just the plain old RAW seem pretty clear that class features can indeed be lost if the new form does not support them;
Exactly as I have been saying.
Just as I've been saying. You are relying on DM's call, not raw. Dn's call happens to BE raw on a lot of cases, but you're still relying on it.
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Again, an unarmed strike is not limited to punches or kicks. Any unarmed attacks that is made by hurling part of your body against another that is not defined as a natural weapon is an unarmed strike.
Not having fists or legs does not prevent one from making an unarmed attack, as I have shown in the combat section of the PRD
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"You also lose any class features that depend upon form
Exactly as I have been saying.
Not the first person to post that passage in this thread, and that passage says the exact opposite of what you have been saying.
It says that things that depend on form may be lost, say like:
Wings (Ex)
Benefit: The alchemist gains bat-like, bird-like, or insect-like functional wings
This is a class feature that alters your form, which you would lose when you polymorph.
Hands are rooted in biology. Honest. They are.I'm readingit means it as something rooted in the creatures biology, which this isn't.
So is Intelligence. What Int penalty does the ring impose for having a teeny-tiny bird brain?
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So is Intelligence. What Int penalty does the ring impose for having a teeny-tiny bird brain?Hands are rooted in biology. Honest. They are.I'm readingit means it as something rooted in the creatures biology, which this isn't.
The intellect goes to some metaphysical 'Quantum Cheep' place?
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the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost
how does it work in PFS? Does this mean that a polymorphed IUS build can expect some tables where their build
falls aparthas to stop using polymorph and just IUS at full size?
It's why I said if you are a GM that nixes IUS in polymorph forms, you need to tell your players before they play at your table.
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the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost
how does it work in PFS? Does this mean that a polymorphed IUS build can expect some tables where their build
falls aparthas to stop using polymorph and just IUS at full size?It's why I said if you are a GM that nixes IUS in polymorph forms, you need to tell your players before they play at your table.
But what about those DMs that want you to permanently change other people's characters that play at their tables.
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But what about those DMs that want you to permanently change other people's characters that play at their tables.the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost
how does it work in PFS? Does this mean that a polymorphed IUS build can expect some tables where their build
falls aparthas to stop using polymorph and just IUS at full size?It's why I said if you are a GM that nixes IUS in polymorph forms, you need to tell your players before they play at your table.
I have never met a GM who wanted me to change other peoples' characters. I've only ever made a player make changes to a character when it had an obviously illegal option (a modern firearm is literally the only case I can recall).
Any option that is legal for the character to have should not be required or requested to be changed. I would hope GMs that behave that way don't last long as GMs.
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But what about those DMs that want you to permanently change other people's characters that play at their tables.Don't play at their table?
Can you describe an example?
Wei Ji is pretty much accurate. I had a heated debate where a local DM was horribly wrong about a ruling and was requiring people to rebuild their PCs to play at his table, and that their change was permanent.
I honestly believe he was trying to remove options he did not like and called him out on it. Then I offered to DM to replace him, so he renigged. I also am willing ot bet he was inspired fromt he threads Wei Ji spoke of.
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That all sounds horribly wrong. I'd recommend not playing with them
Without derailing too much, sometimes it is *not that simple* to do.
Back on track and focused on the topic at hand -- How would a huge price increase be implemented for those that want to jack the price up to 'Ring of Fast Healing Regeneration range?
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That all sounds horribly wrong. I'd recommend not playing with themWithout derailing too much, sometimes it is *not that simple* to do.
Back on track and focused on the topic at hand -- How would a huge price increase be implemented for those that want to jack the price up to 'Ring of
Fast HealingRegeneration range?
Hypothetically speaking it could come down one of two ways.
1. The price is changed in the Campaign Clarifications document to a price to be determined by Tonya, John, and Linda (likely in consultation with others) or
2. It gets errataed or FAQ by the PDT at some future point (generally when there is a reprinting of the book containing the item for errata)
(Option 1 leaves open the option 2 to happen, meaning a possibility of not 1 but 2 price changes)
If either (or both) happened, I imagine the change would be implemented in much the same way as other items price changes (Mask of Stony Demeanor, Vial of Efficacious Medicine, etc.) where you sell it back at the full old cost and buy it at the new one (if you want it), effectively you pay the difference.
Let's do a poll. It's not about whether or not the item needs a price change or banned. Frankly I don't care either way, I don't use the item. I think the root problem is people that buy the item don't understand the rules.
How many of the following have you seen at a table.
Someone using the ring at a table said:
- A) "my fly speed is 120" or anything else over 40.
- B) "I turn back into human" without being able to speak and not waiting 10 minutes
- C) "Being tiny gives me +8 Dex, +3 NA" instead of the +4 dex and +1 NA that Beast Shape II provides.
- D) "my AC is over 34 before combat expertise or fighting defensively" which is a simple 5th level fighter build with 17,000 gp will have.
- E) "I full attack and deal 45 damage" or more damage in a turn.
- F) I've seen none of the above.
A, B, or C are incorrect rules interpretations.For D, I'm pretty sure there is no legal way to have this be true. I spent 50+ hrs building my Fox Shape Kitsune to get AC 26 and I didn't bother buying the ring.
For E, I also don't think you can exceed 45 damage maximum legally. I've seen plenty of druid builds, fighter builds, magus builds that exceed 45 average damage done in a full attack.
I'm going first:
@Risner My response is F) None of the above.
I don't play PFS, but have a ring.
I am guilty of B, because that was not listed as part of the item, or the polymorph rules, which I looked up.
A tiny bird cannot feasibly kick someone with its little legs. But this is not just a tiny bird: Its a tiny bird that has been magically formed from a different creature and, as such, can do a lot of silly things a tiny bird should be physically incapable of. Like having more strength and lifting power/carrying capacity than the average human (assuming you had 15 or higher strength before you activated the ring).
Avg human: 100 #
Bird from 15 str human: 75#Bird from 17 str human: 100#
You forgot the size penalty to strength
Kinecist bird.They need a prehensile limb to throw things don't they? The feet may or may not qualify.
Dictionary: 1. adapted for seizing, grasping, or taking hold of something: a prehensile tail.
A bird can certainly grasp a branch with their feet.
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Some other comments:
Complaining about 7 uses per day is not checking that the standard #encounters/day is 4, and in some campaign APs is 1. The non-combat uses like scouting are a help, but prices tend to be more concerned with combat use not RP use.
My AC goes down, because I loose armor bonus.
I get only a single attack.
My single attack Damage goes down. [Avg < 20 w/sneak attack]
I can no longer flank, loosing that avenue to sneak attack.
I get to fly.
Since my acrobatics is high, I can already avoid a lot of stuff by jumping over them. Current min jump is 60', Take-10 is 78', max is 98'. If I spend a ki point, add 16' to each of those numbers.
I have put a rank into fly, and have a skill level of 10. Enough for most things I want to do.
I find it cool and not under-priced.
/cevah
Since my acrobatics is high, I can already avoid a lot of stuff by jumping over them. Current min jump is 60', Take-10 is 78', max is 98'. If I spend a ki point, add 16' to each of those numbers.You mean vertical and not horizontal, right?
Sadly, no. :-(
While 10th level, I don't have High Jumper. Nor do I have an Akitonian Blade.
Been thinking about that blade, though......
Another thing I have going on... I just got the Flight Hex. I'm not high enough for the fly yet, but I get the personal feather fall. If I can find a way to jump off the air itself, I could jump up as high as I desired by "stepping" up with jumps.
/cevah
Annoying.
I can RUN at 4xMove. I move at 30' base + 10' enhancement, so I can run for 4x = 160' / round. Add a ki point for +20', and I get 240' / round with an additional +8 acrobatics jumping due to speed. If I get the Akitonian Blade [3x distance], or some Leap Cake [+20 acrobatics] or a Rod of Balance [+10 comp acrobatics, 2x distance], or all three, I could easily exceed my allotted movement. So I need to increase my speed.
However, that may not work, since each +10' grants +4 acrobatics on jumping, if I have the 3x multiplier, I wind up jumping +12' for every +10' of speed. What I really need is a house rule eliminating the cap.
Maybe a pause in the air like this, and complete the jump on the next round.
/cevah
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Just dropping by to add in my $0.02 on this.
Please PLEASE PLEASE ban the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors. Or at the very least, increase the price significantly- I'd say to 15k at minimum.This ring is painfully underpriced, poorly worded, and highly exploitable.
As yet, NO one has convincingly demonstrated how this unupgradeable ring is such an Artifact of Doom.
Or are there that many monsters in the Bestiary that have a songbird vulnerability that I haven't found? I have two dozen characters in PFS, I can't find one that this ring makes into an unstoppable terro, and several where it would be a considerable downgrade.
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I object to the title of this thread. The word "legitimate" should not have been used.
well, my input means little, but I think the ring was clearly intended(ooohh, dangerous ground) to be a fluff item that had unforeseen consequences when loopholes that are specifically meant to give a combat advantage to smaller opponents verses larger foes were applied. So we are really back to a polymorph issue, in this case it's all about size.
If the ring would have transformed the user into an elephant it would have never seen the light of day - but awww... he's a cute widdle birdy!
It's not unbalanced IFF the user cannot attack effectively. Yes, it would still yield a high AC for escape purposes, but there is Windy Escape(for sylphs) and Emergency Force Sphere. Being a bird will not stop a spell user from capturing or doing worse things to a tiny bird. I'm not saying this is the only solution, or one that's legal in PFS, just an effective home game one. Otherwise just ban the ring in your home game or price it correctly.
As a "named item" in PFS it is not upgradeable (I'm not aware of a greater version of this ring in published materials).
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Having picked it up on my bard recently, along with a companion ring to allow communication while in said form, I will openly and honestly admit that the ring currently has only one real use for that character...
He's using it responsibly, please don't let the theory-crafters on forums dictate the path for the vast bulk of sane, rational, polite gamers out there.
Thank you.
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He's using it responsibly, please don't let the theory-crafters on forums dictate the path for the vast bulk of sane, rational, polite gamers out there.
Thank you.
I still think it is so cheap.
for an extra 2000 gp you can skip many chase scenes, avoid climb checks and scout.It could be nice if they clarified that you can not end Beast Shape if your chosen shape can't form words.
That is before you give it to a psychic caster, imagine what a mesmerist or psychic could do.
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He's using it responsibly, please don't let the theory-crafters on forums dictate the path for the vast bulk of sane, rational, polite gamers out there.
Thank you.
I still think it is so cheap.
for an extra 2000 gp you can skip many chase scenes, avoid climb checks and scout.It could be nice if they clarified that you can not end Beast Shape if your chosen shape can't form words.
That is before you give it to a psychic caster, imagine what a mesmerist or psychic could do.
True, but at least with the FAQ clarifying that even psychic spells have visual effects, people will at least know that that strange song bird is casting something, and react accordingly...
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True, but at least with the FAQ clarifying that even psychic spells have visual effects, people will at least know that that strange song bird is casting something, and react accordingly...
He's using it responsibly, please don't let the theory-crafters on forums dictate the path for the vast bulk of sane, rational, polite gamers out there.
Thank you.
I still think it is so cheap.
for an extra 2000 gp you can skip many chase scenes, avoid climb checks and scout.It could be nice if they clarified that you can not end Beast Shape if your chosen shape can't form words.
That is before you give it to a psychic caster, imagine what a mesmerist or psychic could do.
Since the effect is not wildshape, Natural Spell does not apply. you can't cast in it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Since the effect is not wildshape, Natural Spell does not apply. you can't cast in it.True, but at least with the FAQ clarifying that even psychic spells have visual effects, people will at least know that that strange song bird is casting something, and react accordingly...
He's using it responsibly, please don't let the theory-crafters on forums dictate the path for the vast bulk of sane, rational, polite gamers out there.
Thank you.
I still think it is so cheap.
for an extra 2000 gp you can skip many chase scenes, avoid climb checks and scout.It could be nice if they clarified that you can not end Beast Shape if your chosen shape can't form words.
That is before you give it to a psychic caster, imagine what a mesmerist or psychic could do.
Where does it say that you can't? You could be polymorphed into a frog and still be able to cast spells as a psychic caster.
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I haven't re-read the whole thread since the necro so I'm likely repeating myself.
Its definitely cheap for what it does. I have a Kitsune designed to fight in tiny fox form (its similar to the infamous songbird of doom but nowhere near as powerful). For the cost of this ring I got the ability to fly whenever I needed to (thereby trivially fixing one of the problem areas the character had).
But its NOT game breakingly broken. For that character, its probably very comparable in value to a wand of Fly or the like
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Please don't ban this ring.
There are so many of us who want it just because it's a lovely, flavorful item. Lyric has no dex bonus. It gives her nothing except for a deflection bonus and the ability to fly sometimes in a form where she can cast no spells and do no fighting.
Please! Although it has appeared widely in forum theory crafting, I have never seen anyone who abuses it in practice. Not even psychic casters.
So is Intelligence. What Int penalty does the ring impose for having a teeny-tiny bird brain?Hands are rooted in biology. Honest. They are.I'm readingit means it as something rooted in the creatures biology, which this isn't.
Which is in a teeny tiny body, so the brain to body mass ratio works out.
And some birds are incredibly intelligent and social. Some in the parrot family are poor acquisitions if you aren't going to give it plenty of interaction.
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After months of digestion on this, I think what irritates me the most about it is that it lets you wild shape better than a level 20 druid, since they never gain access to beast shape IV through wild shape. Just grinds my gears, I guess.
Except it really doesn't. Since you're turning into an animal and NOT a magical beast you get the effect of Beast Shape 2 despite the fact that for some unknown reason you're using Beast Shape 4 to do so.
Another case of either bad editing or Paizo not understanding their own rule system.
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Having picked it up on my bard recently, along with a companion ring to allow communication while in said form, I will openly and honestly admit that the ring currently has only one real use for that character...
** spoiler omitted **
That *is* a responsible use of that ring, you're right. If the ring was only useful for escape and/or scouting, I wouldn't object (though I'd still like to see a slight price increase).
But for every 1 player only using it for scouting/escape, there are several more using it to provide massive combat bonuses. Something that I can't believe the developers intended.
I have a local player with this ring. It makes his otherwise 'glass canon' PC nearly untouchable, allowing him to stealthily get to the BBEG (or anything else), get a massive sneak attack off, and (usually) remain nearly un-hittable- at least long enough for him to escape.
Let me be clear. I am not saying this player is abusive. He isn't. He's using a 100% PFS-legal item in conjunction with 100% PFS-legal classes, archetypes, feats, and other items to produce an effect that is far greater than the sum of it's parts. In a lot of ways, I admire his work- it's an excellent example of theory-crafting.
Theory-crafting is really nifty. It stimulates critical thinking, teaches the rules, exercises creativity, etc. But when theory-crafting moves from the forum to the table, the results are often unintentionally harmful.
My local player himself has stated that he wished that the ring would be errata-ed so that he could sell it back for full value, because he himself agrees that the ring is too powerful when used offensively. But I can completely understand his not wanting to give up the ring and eat the diminished re-sale value.
What about this:
What if, instead of asking for a ban of the ring, or an errata drastically inflating the price, we instead ask for something (probably in the Campaign Clarification document) stating that the PC cannot enter combat while in songbird form (but would still be able to defend normally and with all the advantages the ring offers)?
That way, the folks using the ring as intended (for escape/scouting) can still do so, while the offensive aspects of the ring are removed, which are what *most* people are complaining about.
He's using it responsibly, please don't let the theory-crafters on forums dictate the path for the vast bulk of sane, rational, polite gamers out there.
I think my suggestion would allow for exactly that. :-)
Unfortunately, when theory-crafts move from forum to table, all too often the result is "this is why we can't have nice things". I'm all for solutions that allow sane, rational, and polite gamers to have their fun, while curbing the rampant cheese that tends to flow from many (but by no means all) the theory-crafting outlets.
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Thematically, that would make sense, as the Eternal Rose is all about 'Beauty, Love thy neighbor, and don't kill folks if you can avoid it' if memory serves?
Pretty much, yes.
While I may have missed a post somewhere in the thread, I don't think folks are complaining about the escape/scouting aspect of it. So, closing the combat loophole seems like a better option than a ban.
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But for every 1 player only using it for scouting/escape, there are several more using it to provide massive combat bonuses.
Other points aside, I'm very impressed with your in-depth knowledge of the demographics of the player base. To know exactly what every player with one of these rings is using it for, across all of PFS? Now that is impressive.