Why not bind a good outsider anyway? Generally they're way better than their CR suggests.
Presumably it's the appeal of both forbidden fruit or doing something "Because I'm badass enough that I can." It's how wizards acquire bragging rights at wizard conventions.
Is coercing a serial killer to do your bidding an evil act? If your morality sense is tingling, it is probably evil.
No, not evil. What you coerce him to do determines the evilality of the act.
Since to Planar Bind you must cast Circle of Protection from evil (a good act).
It cancels out.
I always thought it was GM fiat to determine how often/how many times evil acts need be committed before knocking alignments.Pretty much, yeah. But the core rulebook does say the following:
It's best to let players play their characters as they want. If a player is roleplaying in a way that you, as the GM, think doesn't fit his alignment, let him know that he's acting out of alignment and tell him why—but do so in a friendly manner. If a character wants to change his alignment, let him—in most cases, this should amount to little more than a change of personality, or in some cases, no change at all if the alignment change was more of an adjustment to more accurately summarize how a player, in your opinion, is portraying his character. In some cases, changing alignments can impact a character's abilities—see the class write-ups in Classes for details. An atonement spell may be necessary to repair damage done by alignment changes arising from involuntary sources or momentary lapses in personality.So...that implies pretty strongly that it's probably gonna take more than a single act.
Chances are if you're doing something like this, it's not your first step down the slope.
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Incorrect.James Jacobs has explained in his "Ask me..." Thread regarding alignment (in response to a question I asked no less) that non-native outsiders cannot act outside of their alignment and cannot change alignment barring direct divine intervention.
Well, JJ is generally only about 90% accurate when describing his sphere of influence, which this is, and with rapidly plunging accuracy when you get in to rules stuff.
I will say the few Pathfinder Tales I've read that deal with outsiders support the "no free will" position. The whole point of taking away your mortal memories and then refining your petitioner form is to mold you into a pretty inflexible version of what your plane exemplifies.
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Incorrect.
James Jacobs has explained in his "Ask me..." Thread regarding alignment (in response to a question I asked no less) that non-native outsiders cannot act outside of their alignment and cannot change alignment barring direct divine intervention.
Citation, please. That directly contradicts several actual game rules, and the plot of at least one novel, as well as things I've read James Jacobs saying myself.
I mean, I absolutely believe you that they have a very hard time acting against their Alignment (that was more or less my whole point in many ways), but I suspect you're misremembering slightly the extremity of the position taken.
EDIT:
This is the only citation I could find. Is that what you were thinking of? Because that doesn't actually say what you're saying. At all.
I am not that experienced with binding, but don't you have to pay them?What about binding good outsiders? Is it good to force an angel(just an example) to work for you?
So disregarding the spell descriptor staining your soul and such, I think binding demons is probably evil anyway.
Not always, and you don't have to pay them anything near what their services are worth. You can also just browbeat them into serving you.
If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature's Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward.So if your Charisma is high enough (or you can lower theirs enough), you can simply say "serve me, and your reward will be serving someone awesome" and they'll say "sure," and grovel at your feat.
Still seems like they are giving permission, which should be TOO bad. You are just that persuasive. And things go MUCH easier when you are asking them to do something they would want to do anyway.
Keeping an angel locked up indefinitely is probably a problem though, but I doubt it usually comes to that.
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Fun fact: Pope Honorius III is rumored to have grown so holy that the mere mundane temptations of mortal life held no challenge for him. So he would summon devils and defy them to try to damn his soul. None succeeded, as far as we know.
Not sure where that leaves us...
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In terms of binding an Angel, I really think it depends on what you're binding them to do, as well as how and why.
If you just summon them and ask them to help you slay these demons, and they can then go home, I'm pretty sure you get that +6 to the Charisma check and they say 'Sure!' most of the time even absent payment, with the occasional failure being them saying "I'd love to help but I'm kind of busy..." I'm pretty sure this is fine, morally speaking.
If, on the other hand, you use spells to methodically reduce their Charisma until they can't say no, and then enslave them to obey all your orders for as long as you like and use their services purely for monetary gain. I'm pretty sure this version is really Evil.
And there's a spectrum between those situations that's a little more of a grey area.
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What about binding good outsiders? Is it good to force an angel(just an example) to work for you?
So disregarding the spell descriptor staining your soul and such, I think binding demons is probably evil anyway.
I am not that experienced with binding, but don't you have to pay them? That makes this more like forcing him to listen to an offer for independant contractor work.
I would say that one wizard discovery where you continually blackmail an outsider with their true name is far worse.
Planar Ally requires fair payment, Planar Binding does not (though it can help).
I am not that experienced with binding, but don't you have to pay them?What about binding good outsiders? Is it good to force an angel(just an example) to work for you?
So disregarding the spell descriptor staining your soul and such, I think binding demons is probably evil anyway.
Not always, and you don't have to pay them anything near what their services are worth. You can also just browbeat them into serving you.
If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature's Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward.So if your Charisma is high enough (or you can lower theirs enough), you can simply say "serve me, and your reward will be serving someone awesome" and they'll say "sure," and grovel at your feat.
Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to.
Generally planar binding is harder than it looks.
In terms of binding an Angel, I really think it depends on what you're binding them to do, as well as how and why.
If you just summon them and ask them to help you slay these demons, and they can then go home, I'm pretty sure you get that +6 to the Charisma check and they say 'Sure!' most of the time even absent payment, with the occasional failure being them saying "I'd love to help but I'm kind of busy..." I'm pretty sure this is fine, morally speaking.
If, on the other hand, you use spells to methodically reduce their Charisma until they can't say no, and then enslave them to obey all your orders for as long as you like and use their services purely for monetary gain. I'm pretty sure this version is really Evil.
And there's a spectrum between those situations that's a little more of a grey area.
Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to.
Even if you lower their charisma checks enough that "they can't say no" it's still only to reasonable requests.
Unreasonable requests will continue to fail.
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It's actually incredibly unreasonable. They likely have no idea who you are and what you will ask them to do. For all they know you intend on using the spell to have them slaughter innocents, trick a pious follower of a good aligned deity, or commit other evil acts.
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Binding evil outsiders for bragging rights at the wizard convention is how you end up taking levels in Diabolist.
Not that levels in Diabolist aren't surprisingly strong...
*Paid for by the Asmodean Society for Eternal Damnation.
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New question with the same theme:
What about when you summon a specific evil outsider to ask questions, only he/she/it knows the answer to?
Like summoning a devil to ask about certain souls and contracts? Or a demon about events it was present? Or the plans of a demon-lord it dislikes?
Is this kind of interaction also evil? I mean, you pretty much only talk to them. Maybe bribe them with a few trinkets (it doesn't have to be virgin maidens). If the answer is yes, wouldn't that make interacting with any kind of evil creature an evil act?
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He totally does:
That said, my opinion (which as Creative Director of Paizo is what strongly sets the in-print philosophy of books we publish for Pathfinder) is that alignment is a result, not a cause of actions. Alignment is reactionary and not the cause of actions and decisions. UNLESS YOU ARE A NON-NATIVE OUTSIDER, in which case it's reversed. In the case of fey and undead, things are in a weird middle zone between the two.
As he says, in cases of a NON-NATIVE OUTSIDER Alignment is causal and not reactionary.
Uh...sure. But that doesn't actually contradict what I said (which is that they aren't perfect, not that alignment isn't their defining trait). Nor is that what you said. What you said was:
Incorrect.
James Jacobs has explained in his "Ask me..." Thread regarding alignment (in response to a question I asked no less) that non-native outsiders cannot act outside of their alignment and cannot change alignment barring direct divine intervention.
Bolding mine. That's not what he said. Not the first part and certainly not the second part.
Their actions are caused by their Alignment rather than their alignment being the result of their actions, but that doesn't mean they can't perform individual acts that violate that alignment, nor that it requires a deity to change it.
That's not a direct or logical conclusion to come to from that wording.
Also, it was an aside in the answer to a different question entirely and thus might be slightly misphrased to boot. Reading as much as you are into it is a bad idea.
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It's actually incredibly unreasonable. They likely have no idea who you are and what you will ask them to do. For all they know you intend on using the spell to have them slaughter innocents, trick a pious follower of a good aligned deity, or commit other evil acts.
True enough. How about:
'Serve me in any way that doesn't directly cause you to commit an Evil act, or I'll kill you.'
That's both a reasonable deal, and pretty Evil. And something I could absolutely see a Neutral or Evil mercenary doing as part of a job.
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It's certainly true that nobody else (or at least nobody innocent) is gonna get hurt when your summoned Celestial escapes.
But I would in no way assume that it will be risk free for you the summoner. If you're always polite and friendly when you summon angels and have them do good works, or ay them very well for their services, then you're likely fine. But if that's not the case? If you compel their service to mundane, menial, or distasteful (but not Evil, since that wouldn't work) tasks? I'd expect something deeply unpleasant to befall you.
That's slavery of a sort, after all, and rather wicked. And nothing prevents Celestials from punishing the wicked.
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The letter does assume that you did nothing of note to upset the Celestial creature. Just did a poor job of whatever ritual is required for binding, perhaps left the window open and all the lantern archons just floated away.(never had a character get high enough for this so I don't know much about it, in the end I was simply trying to be humorous)At any rate at least the neighbors won't be upset with you. Even if the angels leave in a huff.
Gotcha. And that can indeed happen. It's not super likely, but it can happen.
Also wouldn't binding any of these creatures for menial tasks be wasteful as well? Significant risk for not significant gain?
Well, depends on what you mean by menial. Guarding your tower's treasure room might well be seen as menial by the Celestial but still be a good resource allocation by you, for example.
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That is right. I remember because I thought it was dumb that binding a good creature was a good act after a discussion on the boards.
Paladin: What is that creature with wings?
Good Sorcerer: It is an angel I just captured. I will hold him here until he decides to cooperate with us.
To reiterate: The spell to summon an angel is Good. The spell to keep it captive is Evil. So the magic all cancels out alignment-wise.
It's what you do with it that really counts. And kidnapping angels and 'holding them until they cooperate' definitely sounds Evil to me.
Magic circle vs Chaos or magic circle vs law will also work. Literally any circle other than magic circle against evil.
EDIT: This is also why any ol' circle will work for neutral-aligned outsiders like elementals. Elementals are also among the easiest outsiders to bind so they make pretty solid practice spirits.EDIT 2: Also if you want to be a jerk (like me!), I'd like to point out that planetouched races like aasimar, tieflings, and so forth, as well as other outsiders (rakshasa, oni, etc) are totally legal targets for planar binding spells. This happened to my friend's tiefling in a game I was running where her tiefling got trapped in a magic circle and compelled to serve.
Also if you're even more of a jerk (like my NPCs), you might be like This Guy who breaks celestials for the lolz.
I would still bind Angels and Celestials over fiends, if only because there is zero consequences for failure or it escaping (assuming you are not evil, if you are evil then your consequences rise dramatically.)
If your bound demon monster escapes, the surviving townsfolk are going to be knocking down your door with battering rams made of paladins. No one is happy here.If your bound angel escapes (again assuming you and your neighborhood are not evil). Then this is the kind of apology letter you'll be sending to the city council.
I wouldn't say zero chance with the angels. I mean... grab and annoy something strong enough, and it might just wipe you out on the grounds that you interfered with its work protecting the cosmos from demon hordes.
But that would likely be just personal destruction or destruction of the building you are in. Demons make it a point to rampage. I highly doubt they would get all Sodom and Gomorrah on you for something this routine as 'mortal caster meddling with outsiders'.
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Magic circle vs Chaos or magic circle vs law will also work. Literally any circle other than magic circle against evil.
True in theory. In practice, I'm pretty sure enslaving celestials is way more Evil than Calling them is Good.
Calling angels you don't know by name with anything but Magic Circle vs. Good is also borderline suicidally stupid, since they actually come in all Good Alignments, and there's thus a decent chance of summoning a Chaotic one into your Circle vs. Law (or a Lawful one into your Circle vs. Chaos).
EDIT: This is also why any ol' circle will work for neutral-aligned outsiders like elementals. Elementals are also among the easiest outsiders to bind so they make pretty solid practice spirits.
EDIT 2: Also if you want to be a jerk (like me!), I'd like to point out that planetouched races like aasimar, tieflings, and so forth, as well as other outsiders (rakshasa, oni, etc) are totally legal targets for planar binding spells. This happened to my friend's tiefling in a game I was running where her tiefling got trapped in a magic circle and compelled to serve.
Yeah, that all works. Though summoning Tieflings whose names you aren't familiar with is also pretty dumb, since you get a random one of X HD or less...who is pretty likely to be a 1st level Commoner. And if they aren't, might have a way out of the Circle pretty readily. I know I wouldn't try and keep, say, a 12th level Wizard or Cleric in such a Circle...
Of course, if you know their name, that's another matter entirely.
Also if you're even more of a jerk (like my NPCs), you might be like This Guy who breaks celestials for the lolz.
That scenario probably doesn't actually work on a Ghaele. It'd work on some Celestials, but Ghaeles have full Cleric casting as a 13th level Cleric. She can literally cast Remove Curse and ditch the Geas on the day after she gets it. Pretty casually, since she can prepare literally all her 3rd level spells as Remove Curse. And she can then use Heal to return her stats to where they are (or Lesser Restoration if necessary).
Oh, wait, looking at it, she has constant Holy Aura and can't ever be Geased at all by an Evil person unless that's dispelled and she's then Geased. Within the same turn (Note: This is debatably impossible due to the 10 minute casting time...you might manage it with a Quickened Dispel Magic plus a Limited Wish, depending on the GM). While she's not expecting it (since she can auto-counterspell Dispel Magic with a held action). Huh.
Oh, and that also ignores her ability to cast dismissal on herself and escape the trap at will unless dimensional anchor is in effect...which is dicey since it has to be in effect after she gets there. And especially dicey since she also has Dispel Magic to get rid of the Dimensional Anchor as an at-will ability.
And finally, as established earlier in the thread, 'Do whatever I say, including Evil things, or I kill you.' is not actually a reasonable agreement to force a Celestial into and thus cannot be forced by Planar Binding, no matter the check.
Can a 20th level wizard force a Ghaele to servitude? I...suppose it's possible. It's a couple of orders of magnitude more difficult than you're making it out to be, though. And the Planar Binding would only be a way to get them there, you'd need other magics to actually enforce the slavery.
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I've always took reasonable to mean something that is actually within the realm of reason and/or not obviously suicidal. Ergo, you couldn't provide them with an impossible task, or require them to commit suicide or something.
This would likewise fit with the lore that these abilities are based upon, such as King Solomon's magical ring, which he forced evil demons to build the temple of the divine god, against their will, for which they swore to harass his lineage forever. Or somesuch.
It's entirely reasonable that an angel could destroy a city. It's also something they would be vehemently opposed to and get the +6 to their check on.
As for the ghaele casting as a 13th level cleric, apply enough ability damage/penalties, or prevent the creature from having a suitable place to prepare spells (very easy to do) throws a monkey wrench into most of that.
The point is, you're a ****ing wizard. Make it happen. :P
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Also, no, you can apply dimensional anchor to the magic circle. There is no way that a properly made circle can be escaped through the machinations of the trapped outsider.
EDIT: This is, in fact, what makes it such as useful story-generating tool for a GM, and one of the most compelling ways of using good-aligned outsiders as antagonists. It actually underlines the evil of the BBEG in big bold lines, because that's eeeevvvvviiiiiilllll. XD
EDIT 2: I just realized there is no underline tags. God, I forget how crappy this forum's formatting system is sometimes. >:(
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Yeah, that all works. Though summoning Tieflings whose names you aren't familiar with is also pretty dumb, since you get a random one of X HD or less...who is pretty likely to be a 1st level Commoner. And if they aren't, might have a way out of the Circle pretty readily. I know I wouldn't try and keep, say, a 12th level Wizard or Cleric in such a Circle...
Of course, if you know their name, that's another matter entirely.
Yep. It requires you to be specific but that didn't stop her from getting bound. :P
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Oh, and again, the planar binding - once the contract is accepted - is binding. They cannot simply choose to disobey.
EDIT: And a fairly simple way to avoid the ghaele messing with your initial debuffing, you would just knock the ghaele unconscious in some way (use your imagination, though old fashioned damage is a tried and true method of rendering folks KO'd). At which point, you can dispel her aura and debuff at your leisure. Maybe even dimension door into the circle and tie her up (making it impossible for her to succeed at the Concentration checks to cast her spells).
Adding the step of beating the ghaele into unconsciousness for her to awake later to realize all her magical awesomeness is shut down just adds an extra layer to our evil sandwich.
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Also, no, you can apply dimensional anchor to the magic circle. There is no way that a properly made circle can be escaped through the machinations of the trapped outsider.
EDIT: This is, in fact, what makes it such as useful story-generating tool for a GM, and one of the most compelling ways of using good-aligned outsiders as antagonists. It actually underlines the evil of the BBEG in big bold lines, because that's eeeevvvvviiiiiilllll. XD
EDIT 2: I just realized there is no underline tags. God, I forget how crappy this forum's formatting system is sometimes. >:(
Well, strictly speaking, there are two ways that aren't removed by a properly prepared circle. The first is basically never going to happen because the binder can just take 10:
If you ever roll a natural 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the spell's effect and can escape or attack you.
The second is theoretically possible but probably not going to happen if a binder is cautious and only selects targets that can't hit the DC:
The creature can escape from the trap by successfully pitting its Spell Resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 your caster level + your Charisma modifier). It can try each method once per day.
If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5.
So... probably not going to happen (a Ghaele has a +3 Cha bonus to throw up against a minimum DC of 25... good luck), but if you pick your targets badly, they could happen.
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I've always took reasonable to mean something that is actually within the realm of reason and/or not obviously suicidal. Ergo, you couldn't provide them with an impossible task, or require them to commit suicide or something.
This would likewise fit with the lore that these abilities are based upon, such as King Solomon's magical ring, which he forced evil demons to build the temple of the divine god, against their will, for which they swore to harass his lineage forever. Or somesuch.
It's entirely reasonable that an angel could destroy a city. It's also something they would be vehemently opposed to and get the +6 to their check on.
That's one interpretation, I suppose, but that entire section talks about bargaining, not compelling. The spell isn't really intended to be 'I can make this creature do anything' there are other spells for that, it's for making a deal. That deal can be for their lives, certainly, since that's a reasonable deal. But it can't be something they'd rather die than do, as that's not reasonable.
I think you need something like Geas to make them actually obey you and destroy cities. Which is totally a valid tactic (and not one they can get away from since they're trapped in a circle). Remember, you can't willfully disobey a Geas and take the penalty. The penalty is if you are actively prevented from performing the duties the Geas compels.
As for the ghaele casting as a 13th level cleric, apply enough ability damage/penalties, or prevent the creature from having a suitable place to prepare spells (very easy to do) throws a monkey wrench into most of that.
The point is, you're a ****ing wizard. Make it happen. :P
Uh...preventing spell preparation for a Cleric who doesn't need to sleep isn't that easy. It may be impossible. And a few of those tricks are stuff it comes prepared with, so it wouldn't need to prepare anything.
And the most important bit is actually their constant Holy Aura and thus complete immunity to Geas.
And yeah, you might well figure something out. But it's way more effort intensive than you implied in the linked post. Which is where I was going with that.
Also, no, you can apply dimensional anchor to the magic circle. There is no way that a properly made circle can be escaped through the machinations of the trapped outsider.
Actually, to quote the spell:
a creature capable of any form of dimensional travel (astral projection, blink, dimension door, etherealness, gate, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar abilities) can simply leave the circle through such means. You can prevent the creature's extradimensional escape by casting a dimensional anchor spell on it, but you must cast the spell before the creature acts. If you are successful, the anchor effect lasts as long as the magic circle does. The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.
So, Dimensional Anchor is definitely an option if you get it off before she escapes...but is not considered part of the Magic Circle proper (since nothing says it is) and can thus be targeted by Dispel Magic from the creature in question. Now, your CL is high enough to not worry too much about one Dispel Magic. But the Ghaele literally has infinite attempts at Dispel Magic. Not all Celestials can do this (in fact, no other Azata can manage it, for example) but a ghaele can do it until it works. And then escape via dimension hopping.
EDIT: This is, in fact, what makes it such as useful story-generating tool for a GM, and one of the most compelling ways of using good-aligned outsiders as antagonists. It actually underlines the evil of the BBEG in big bold lines, because that's eeeevvvvviiiiiilllll. XD
Oh, I agree entirely. And you can absolutely do this to most Celestials.
The ghaele is just way harder than most targets. Even for its CR. Angels are actually harder if anything, they have the 'mind control immunity' thing as a supernatural ability, and are thus literally uncontrollable (since you can't even hit it with Dispel Magic). Most other Celestials aren't quite as hard to target, though.
Yep. It requires you to be specific but that didn't stop her from getting bound. :P
Oh, absolutely. It's a hilarious thing to do to your Tiefling enemies.
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A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level.
You can cast the anchor in advance.
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One of the things the OP asked about was, "if a good aligned wizard can do this without getting into trouble with his god". I'd guess the implication is that the god in question is Good aligned. I suppose a Wizard doesn't really need to care if "his" god approves of his actions. I mean, if a Wizard worships Sarenrae but makes deals with Shadow Demons by sacrificing virgins to them it won't affect his powers, but I'd guess it might affect his standing in the church of Sarenrae and where his soul goes for its eternal reward.
If he just uses Evil tagged spells to call a succubus "mostly for conversation", to help entertain the troops in a holy war (like an Abyssal USO), or to help save the orphanage that might have less impact, but should him casting Evil tagged spells affect Sarenrae's opinion of him? I think the answer should be "yes". After all, Sarenrae grants divine spells, but she doesn't grant the ones with Evil tags, implying to me that maybe she disapproves of such spells. I guess you could posit that she doesn't mind them or even really digs them but simply lacks the power to grant them since they're outside her Goodly area of power and authority. I could see a PC using that as a rationalization of sorts, but I'm guessing that wouldn't be Paizo's official explanation for why Clerics can't spells from opposed alignments (though I've been surprised before)
If torture is an evil act, what about killing? A paladin who comes to mendev just to erase all evil by going into the worldwound and killing every demon he encounters. Or should he just start talking to them, try to convince them to start being good and if that will not work he has to go to the next encounter doing the same. Or what about inqusition in Kenabres killing witches in the name of Iomedae?
How is the situation of a creature living in (stick to the example) mendev who is facing murderer and probably rape by demons all his life? He could decides to go against it and tries to push it back into the abyss and one tool for it is biniding and bargainig demons to get more information how to destroy the evil force.
We are back to the greater good. But compared to our world the paladin obeys the rules of his god and does not stick to the categorial imperativ.
Let's face it there are existing goods in this world people believe in and these gods give the rules of what is good and what action is good not instead of immanuel kant. There is no need for enlightenment and oust the goods from there thrones.
So we have to analyse what theie goods say to rate an act good or evil?
This is a sentence that describes iomedae:
"She would rather convince evildoers to lay down their arms in honorable surrender than cut them down, but she will wield her mighty sword against those who persist in serving evil."
Ok, now there is an evil outsider that persist in serving evil (level5) with information about an evil outsider that persist in serving evil (level 10) with information how to close a planar door to the abyss 100 of serving evil creatures could come through. I guess Iomedae would say: "Dude, get that information with a binding spell and shut that fu*ing door". Ok, you could say this not an honorable action but the wizard would say: "Stand up to an demonlord just by myself is honorable"
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Torture is bad. No, let's clarify: torture is really, really .
We clear?
Here's the thing, though: it can,hypothetically, be used in the service of good. Doing that? Not likely to work out well. At all. Historically, pretty much everyone that has accepted and utilized torture in our world has become evil or lived with regret. All of them. What's more, torture may not work - and even if it does, it doesn't work for the right reasons or the right way. Torture "for good" is not flirting with the slippery slope, it's doing handstand-cartwheels on the slick ice-sheet edge of a steep drop while greased with oil with an open bodies directly in your path.
Killing is not a "good" act - it is a regrettable one. But it can be a morally neutral act, even a necessary one. Killing demons or evil creatures of those who are trying to kill you is not evil - it's not even close to being evil. It would, of course, hypothetically be better to turn everyone to good, but that's not always possible (or is so unlikely that many worse things will happen to other, better people while trying to make it happen to the one bad person).
But let me be clear: "breaking" a demon or devil isn't evil, per se... but inflicting unnecessary or excessive pain in the process is moving you toward a path where you lose your ability to empathize with or care about other creatures. This is bad as that's what evil really is.
And much like trying to redeem that one devil, it's probably a much better idea to avoid those problems altogether, as many more people will likely have lives worse off for your actions, even if indirectly.
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The first is basically never going to happen because the binder can just take 10:
If you ever roll a natural 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the spell's effect and can escape or attack you.
I wouldn't normally let anyone take 10 on the check.
It depends on how you think
When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
applies in this situation as to whether or not that's the official rule or just a house rule of mine. (Unless there is another rule somewhere that I am missing.)
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If you swat a fly I don't think most folks won't think you're a bad person. If you catch the fly, pull off its wings, and maybe stab it to death with a pin or cut it into pieces I think most folks would think that's kind of twisted and you "might have some problems".
I hope that "torture == bad" seems like something most folks should be able to agree on. I guess that the ambiguity comes in when doing something bad would help you prevent something even worse from happening. When is it "worth it" to do something bad?
If there were a credible terrorist threat to blow up NYC but the terrorists said they'd back off if members of Congress raped 1,000 virgins on the White House lawn and then burned them all alive for the glory of Satan should we do it or just let NYC get blown up? In the real world that might be a complex and painful question. In the fantasy world I think the answer should be, "We send a big fricking hero to save the day!" (or perhaps "kill those bastards and save the day!" depending on your exact genre)
ok.is it even possible to be a successful wizard specialized on binding outsiders having low charisma and not being evil?
How were you even going to torture an outsider to begin with?
I mean, they are outsiders. They are not flesh and bone like regular material plane fauna.
You would think a devil would look at you like a moron if you yelled "SUBMIT TO ME!!!!!" and blast him with some lightning bolts.
"You humans have weird de-summoning rituals."
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How were you even going to torture an outsider to begin with?
I mean, they are outsiders. They are not flesh and bone like regular material plane fauna.
You would think a devil would look at you like a moron if you yelled "SUBMIT TO ME!!!!!" and blast him with some lightning bolts.
"You humans have weird de-summoning rituals."
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/agonize.html
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/agonize.htmlHow were you even going to torture an outsider to begin with?
I mean, they are outsiders. They are not flesh and bone like regular material plane fauna.
You would think a devil would look at you like a moron if you yelled "SUBMIT TO ME!!!!!" and blast him with some lightning bolts.
"You humans have weird de-summoning rituals."
Well that is a VERY specific spell indeed.
If you swat a fly I don't think most folks won't think you're a bad person. If you catch the fly, pull off its wings, and maybe stab it to death with a pin or cut it into pieces I think most folks would think that's kind of twisted and you "might have some problems".
I hope that "torture == bad" seems like something most folks should be able to agree on. I guess that the ambiguity comes in when doing something bad would help you prevent something even worse from happening. When is it "worth it" to do something bad?
My niece used to catch flies, pull of their wings so they couldn't escape, and keep them as pets (she wasn't allowed any pets, until they died because she didn't understand the whole feeding thing) when she was little. Was that torture?
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My niece used to catch flies, pull of their wings so they couldn't escape, and keep them as pets (she wasn't allowed any pets, until they died because she didn't understand the whole feeding thing) when she was little. Was that torture?If you swat a fly I don't think most folks won't think you're a bad person. If you catch the fly, pull off its wings, and maybe stab it to death with a pin or cut it into pieces I think most folks would think that's kind of twisted and you "might have some problems".
I hope that "torture == bad" seems like something most folks should be able to agree on. I guess that the ambiguity comes in when doing something bad would help you prevent something even worse from happening. When is it "worth it" to do something bad?
Almost certainly, but small children are inherently evil.
My niece used to catch flies, pull of their wings so they couldn't escape, and keep them as pets (she wasn't allowed any pets, until they died because she didn't understand the whole feeding thing) when she was little. Was that torture?
Let's rephrase the sentence. (Short version: yes.)
"My niece used to catch people, pull of their arms to they couldn't open the doors to escape, and keep them as pets when she was little. Also, she didn't understand the whole feeding thing, so they died. Was that torture?"
Yes, it absolutely is torture. That small creature, annoying as it may be and almost certainly carrying horrid diseases, still has a nervous system and feels pain. So does the fly.
honestly we are not talking about ripping of the outsiders arms and legs and torturing him with spikes! Or spells like agonize. According to the guide I am refering to the relevant spells are 1. bestow curse, 2. touch of idiocy, 3. lesser gear (putting a coin beside the circle and tell command the outsider to get it) and 4. enervation.