Echo Wood Scout

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Aelryinth wrote:

Passing the tests requires passing some DC Knowledge checks, that might or might not be successful. Once you pass them, you can get the information you need to form a suitable reply.

Or you can deviate from the mechanics, wing it, and get a satisfactory reply.

I didn't say the encounter couldn't be PASSED. Surely, if you've a paladin of Iomadae in the party, or any cleric with Knowledge Religion, you should be fine.

But, mechanically, as written, it basically punishes people who don't know much about the goddess or her beliefs.

Oh, and Good does not mean 'nice'. Tough love is a thing. Ants should be respectful even to nice people, lest they be stepped on.


Actually you are only punished when no one knows the answer AND no one appears humble or confident.

The reward for this question is the Chalice of Ozem, which is pretty much as important for Iomedans as the Cross Christ died on or Thor's hammer. Iomeda is testing the heroes worthiness for such an artefact.

Plus the question about the morgh lord is directly linked to the Chalice. Maybe Iomeda wants the heroes to understand the significance of the artefact she is about to bestow upon them.

Personally I say: Knowledge check, by sucess Major artefact, by failure sonic damage you can easily survive at your level.

Seems like a fair deal to me.

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Okay I looked again, and I realize I made a mistake. The dwarfen city of Clash of Kingslayers is canon.

About the prison realm thing: Torag uses giants infused by Rovagugs influence to give his dead priestess a tool of revenge. They were not in imprisoned with the Mad Beast, but in an own prison realm called Myrkos.

Is that Lawful good? Not really.

But... the dwarfen king the priestess wants to destroy has betrayed ancient tradition in heinous ways, rules like a tyrant, and has basically given control of his realm to a cult of Lamashtu-Worshippers. Basically all the excuses a Lawful deity needs to smite and smite hard.

Again the adventure was published before certain things became canon, so inconsistencies are to be expected.

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If you give specific examples please reference the source, so the rest of us can read what you mean. Otherwise its hard to follow your logic.


1. I assume you mean Clash of Kingslayer. This adventure was pre-3.5, meaning that there are gonna be inconsistencies with the current world setting (for example a dwarfen city thats never mentioned again).

2. I assume you mean Wrath of the Rightious, Herald of the ivory Labyrinth. Iomeda is testing the good in the heroes hearts, preparing them for the trials to come. It is also noted that she revives any heroes, that died without any level-loss.

3. Tabris realized that he could never finish the Book of the damned in a conventional way, as evil always evolves. But instead of admitting this, he corrupted a piece of his own essence, which became the Voice of the Damned, to keep the BotD always up to date (Hell Unleashed, for reference). This was his unforgivable sin.

Also, the celestial host gave him the chance to repent. He refused and was banished. It was never noted that the angels tried to kill him.

4. I assume you mean The Redemption Engine. It was noted that both angels were actually fallen, though no-one had realized it to that point. All other angels (who were not created by the machine), were appalled by their deeds, and the redeemed devil was released of another chain from his past as he executed them, meaning that heaven itself was rejecting them.

Chris Spano wrote:
I like how so far the GR's lawfulness is working against them. It's basically impossible for the party to realistically do the events in this book without suspicion pointing at them. As soon as they arrive bad things start happening. They might not leave witnesses, but it's definitely suspicious. Oh no the docks burned down a week after 4-5 heavily armed strangers with mean dispositions took up residence in the inn on the edge of this small town. After the first couple things happen, or the first important NPC ends up dead, Oppian should have rallied up his A-team(the warden, the legion archon, that nonlethal ram outsider, and 3-4 sergeants) and come to arrest the PCs. Chances are there's some damning evidence(holy symbols of asmodeus, thrune insignias, something)

There is an easy way for the GM to avoid making the town council look like idiots for not suspecting the PCs:

A second team of Thrune Agents, sponsored by a rival of Fex. They are not as talented, but their style is more flashy, making them the primary suspects in cases of terrorism. That way the PC are only casually watched while everyone searches for this second team.

Here is how I done it. Fex informs the PCs of the rival team is in town and has recently attacked Little Uskwood, knowing that its operated by someone in Fex pocket. This also gives the owner's (forgot her name) story of needing bodyguards more credibility: She needs protection from some Chelish noble, but she can't have Iomedans hanging around, as they would intimidate her Nidalese customer. Since Oppian has a crush on her, he cools tempers and allows her hiring bodyguards from outside.

This tactic also helps keeping your PCs from attacking Valors fastness directly: The other team might take credit. So until they are exterminated, the PCs should wait with their final attack.

The other Thrune agents should not be a big threat. During their last attack they had multiple casualties, meaning that when the PCs arrive, they can only engage in minor acts of sabotage (25% chance everyday for a despair point).

When enough DP are collected for the town to sink into anarchy, let the PCs find the other agents hideout (another nearby cave). Once the Pcs return, the town has sunken into anarchy, and the final attack can begin.

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New question with the same theme:

What about when you summon a specific evil outsider to ask questions, only he/she/it knows the answer to?

Like summoning a devil to ask about certain souls and contracts? Or a demon about events it was present? Or the plans of a demon-lord it dislikes?

Is this kind of interaction also evil? I mean, you pretty much only talk to them. Maybe bribe them with a few trinkets (it doesn't have to be virgin maidens). If the answer is yes, wouldn't that make interacting with any kind of evil creature an evil act?

I think you underestimate Cheliax. Its not like North Korea, a small xenophobe country with restricted borders. Its more like Russia. It lost much power, when the USSR broke apart and communism failed. But its still the biggest country, it still controls many ressources and trade routes, it still has a large standing army, with modern weapons and its still very rich.

And with Putin it has an ambitious leader, who is probably cunning enough to expand Russia's influence again.

All of this also applies for Cheliax. When Arodens prophecy failed, they lost much territory and influence. But they are still bigger than any other country in the Inner Sea. They still control the Arch of Aroden, one of the most important strategic point in the region. They still have a large standing army, reinforced by infernal allies.

And Abrogail Thrune II might just be the leader capable enough to make Cheliax as powerful as it was before the civil war.

As for the question:

Demoniacs and Souldrinkers lose their class-abilities, if they go against the will of their demonic/daemonic masters, and pledging your soul to Asmodeus is a BIG offense. So you shouldn't let your Demoniac do it.

Conversly, Ex-Demoniacs/Ex-Souldrinkers lose their class-features when falling from their lords graces, which also includes 'Damned'. So I would say that Asmodeus is the one claiming

As far as I know you can refuse the offer to become more than a Thrune Agent. In Wrath of Thrune the text for swearing to be a Loyal Thrune Agent only says "If the PCs accept..." and doesn't reveal any consequences for not swearing it.

I don't think every PC is bound to swear his/her soul to hell. It is more like a temptation. The pledges give certain boons and higher social standing with certain NPCs. And the first two parts seem like to have no consequences for the PC whatsoever, seducing them to further pledge their souls to the cause.

If at least one PC swears all pledges, it should be enough. NPCs will probably treat him/her with much more respect than the others, who are regarded at simple mercenaries. Use that. The Pledges should be a temptation, not an obligation.

'Devil's Heretic'? Do you mean the Pathfinder Tale 'Death's Heretic'?

Inevitables are constructed Outsiders. They are forged by the Axiomites, made from Lawful souls to battle Chaos. So they are more then mere Constructs or Golems. They are true outsiders, an own subspecies.

an old lady

There is a RPG book called: 'Ultimate Toolbox', full with this kind of random tables

Instruments of Hard Truths: Torture gear

Unpaid Favors: 'Demons Revisited' mentioned, that succubi can somehow exchange ownership of the profane boon granted to mortals, so that would be an idea of a shop...

Sorrowfull Toys: Items tied to tragic pasts, perfect for creating haunts and cursed items.

Easy vacations: A wizard offering to open small, shortlived portals on the material plane

Names of Power: True names of fiends, devils and even angels (though nothing too powerful)

Pharasma's dirt: Night-hag, selling souls

Blixiu's curses: A variety of cursed items

Dervia's Hounds: Demonic Bounty hunters, who demons ask to capture members of specific races

Wurian's Slave improvement: Wurian (coloxus) has vampires, werewolfs, ghouls and other creatures, who can transmite their state on others chained up

To bad it was a vigilante worshipping Asmodeus.

The Paladin traveled back in time.

The paladin fell because the kids wanted to watch The Lion King

The paladin took levels in a psionic class

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Ok, first up we have Iomeda and Cayden Cailan, now both gods.

Than there Sirian Aldori, founder of the Aldori-swordlords. Belkzen.

Sorry just a few more legendary examples.

What do you mean when you say that you want a living breathing swordmaster? What do you mean with all the historic love and significance for that role? I own many Golarion books. None of them state, that meele weapons, especially swords, are more significant than magic.

Why do Pathfinder Tales have to less weapons? In most of them the protagonist is usually swinging some kind of meele weapon, sometimes bolstered with magic. Adventure Paths? Why? There is a broad variety of enemies and NPCs with different fighting styles in every path. Are there not enough BBEGs who relly solely on weapons? Skull and Shackles, Jade Regent and Giant Slayer have them.

I don't get what your complaining about. Maybe you could elaborate a little more.

If you want a list of famous fighters in the inner sea region: Inner Sea Combat has a list of them.

ABCoLD wrote:

I tried, I tried, I tried, I tried!

I made it through 3 and a half pages of some wonderfully interesting discussions on the origins and nature of Hellknights. Frankly if I ever get my Kingmaker game started again a couple Knights might even show up and offer to help found an order in the River Kingdoms to help bring law to the lawless.

But this thread is literally being pulled off course by people playing a game of "Well Paladin's should mean this even though I can't prove it with mechanics or lore unless you include my personal beliefs and mix in some AD&D and 3.5 understanding of Paladins" on one side with the other side being "We've already said it doesn't work that way."

So, can we please go back to doing something constructive with this thread? Possible Hellknight Paladin builds, best choices/worst choices?

How about how to incorporate Hellknights into the traditional murder hoboing campaign or personal stories of Paladinic Hellknights in home campaigns or your favorite Adventure Path for Hellknight Paladins and why they are interesting?

Anything except this stuff that is wearing out my mouse wheel.

The whole thread is about the question: Why can paladins be hellknights?

It was the question the OP asked at the beginning. Yes, some arguments are getting repetitive, but they still discuss the original question.

If you want to discuss Paladins in Murderhobo campaigns, or Paladin Hellknight builds (which would belong in a Game mechanics forum, not a setting forum), open your own thread. Don't just try to hijack a thread, because it doesn't suit your taste.

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Aelryinth wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Um no, different Hellknight orders come into conflict all the time because they have different beliefs, they're not a hive minded conglomerate. That doesn't make them chaotic.
Hell, Paladins of Iomedae and Abadar have conflicting views and probably go at it a lot too.
INfighting among Hellknight Orders is exactly the same as infighting between different states. It's a chaotic act. The fact it's a result of discrepancies in codes doesn't make it any different then peasants rebelling against unjust laws of other kinds. Hellknight Orders thinking the laws, methods, means and whatnot of the other side being 'not right' is no different then peasants thinking the same.

Chaos descends.

paladins of Iomadae and Adabar have their differences, and probably have very lively debates about it, paladins having diplomacy for a reason. Violence would be incredibly rare...they'd find common ground and different duties to perform within their codes. Paladins being like that, you know.


Only that there was and IS infighting.

In Cheliax, The Infernal Empire, describes, that at one time, the Order of the Pyre besieged the citadel of the Order of the Thorn. They killed more than half of the Thorn-Hellknights, and when forces of the Chain and Scourge moved in to intercept, the Pyre-Helllknights burned the fortress down, killing most of the Thorn Knights.

Hell's Rebels:
The Order of the Rasck also played a major part in dismantling the Order of the Torrent.

Hellknight orders are different factions, with different values. The all uphold order as the highest principale, but have different approaches.

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I was playing in a homebrew-anime style RPG. Our characters were Japanese highschoolers, who discovered the existance of demons youkai. I was playing the cliche Class Repressentative, who enforced the rules with an iron fist.

Another student brought a possessed doll to another PC, who was playing a Taoistic priestess exchange student. My character saw the doll moving.

Demon Class Rep from hell: Pets are not allowed at school!
Taostic priestess: It's a demon, it doesn't really exist.
DCRfh: Non-Existance is no excuse!

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DSQueen wrote:
Getting a recommendation from another diety always helps. Worked for Kurgess and Milani. Though ultimately coming to embody a precept, basically becoming a paragon of such is the major way. Naderi witnessed many tragic romances and had gained divinity upon watching 2 of them kill themselves, rather than be apart; Zyphus felt true rage at the tragedy of his death, decrying how unfair it was, vowing to fill the world with tragic deaths to usurp Pharasma as God of Death.

Naderi was no mortal, but an Empyrial lord in the service of Shelyn, tasked with proctecting forbidden romance. When one of her charges choose suicide before separation, it triggered her ascension into a true deity.

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Plus Hellknights must kill a devil to become full initiates.

Pretty sure that means that they are NOT alligned with hell.

Actually the timeline moved forward, current year is 4715 now (according to Cheliax, The Infernal Empire)

But it was probably just rounding up

In the 'Inner Sea Monster Codex' an agent from Hermea describes several races and their compatibility to humans. The strix-passage includes the following sentence:

"Even if they were reproductively compatiple with humans, hundreds of years of Chelish aggression has imparted a burning distrust of outsiders;"

Do Hobgoblins realize that they were only created as a weapon against elves?

It would also mean that they accept the fact that they were probably created by arcane magic.

Do they deny it? Or do they pragmatically accept it?

Deepmar is in Ravounel, son 'No Response from Deepmar' would fit into the theme. Might be a good way to secure further loyalties. Could replace the Vyre feast, if your players don't like something like that. Or repair the damage if they failed during the feast.

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Well, there is the Starstone. Who wouldn't want control of a stone that can make you a god. Absalom is also one of the most important Trade-cities in Golarion, so if they want to spread technology, that would be a good place to start.

As for why the society wants to enter: An important, historical artefact is the price. That should gain their attention.

Digital Mystic wrote:
Awesome stuff!

That one sounds terrific! Do you have a campaign journal?

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In my group, one of the players was a Cleric of Shelyn, tutored by Nualia's real mother. She had to give up the babe to protect her from certain demonic influences with connections to Karzoug (she was a guardian against the Runelords herself, long story).

After defeating her, the cleric convinced Nualia, that her real mother had still loved her, and that she was serving the very enemy her mother sought to keep at bay (though he thought that it was some ancient demon, his master died before she could reveal the secrets of the Runelords to him).

Nualia herself formed a small group of her own, trying to sabotage Karzoug however possible, and even defended Sandpoint during the raid. The group included several other villains redeemed by the PCs, among them Orik, a stone giant, a lamia and a skinsaw cultist.

After the defeat of Karzoug, Nualia lived as a hermit, before joining the caravan in Jade Regent, trying to make amends with Ameiko for luring her brother down a dark path. She was partly responsible for

Jade Regent:
Zaiobe's redemption, telling the harpy about the dangers of demon lords.

In the end she joined a samurai order, at the command of the new empress of Minkai.

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The novel "The Redemption Engine" actually covers this question.

Redemption Engine:
Two Angels learn a way to build a machine, which is able to pull non-good souls into heaven and make them into angels. At the end both fall from grace, and they are executed by a redeemed devil after trying to storm Pharasmas court

As for disatvantage in the war: The war between heaven and hell is a war of Philosophy. Heaven belives in Law through rightousness, hell in Law through oppression. If the forces of heaven would employ hell´s tactics of recruitment, wouldn´t they admit that hell is right, making the whole war pointless?

Heavens method of recruitment of the other side is called redemption.

Regarding Hopeknives:
I recently did a little research on the natives of Tasmania.
When the British arrived 1802, about 20.000 Aborigenes lived on the island, thought to be fairly harmless people, with technology comparable to the Stone Age. Eighty years later there were non left.

The British used Tasmania as a place to dump Australian convicts. Now imagine: A prisoner-colony for a prisoner-colony. And make matters worse, the Govener wouldn´t allow white men to be defenless in an tribal territory. They got guns and ammunition.

One of the most brutal massacres of colonial history followed. The armed convicts, called bushrangers killed and raped without any remorse. Men were bound to trees and used as target practice. A woman was forced to wear her husbands severed head around her neck. Children were buried to their neck in sand, and their heads used for twisted ballgames.

Noble and rich Britans used the island as hunting ground. Their game were natives. The hunters made fun of the Aborigines by putting an unloaded gun into their mouths and pulling the trigger, before handing them a loaded one. To add to natives plight, sailors frequently came to the island, raping the woman.

What has that to do with hopeknives? After a few years a scottish missionary reported that natives started slauthering their own children before killing themselves.

It wasn´t extreminism, they just had no hope left.

Getting stronger... ANIME STYLE

The cursed blade could have a connection to the Runeforge, thus you could give the player a few hints about it.

Edit: Big Sister- it´s not about the real connection, more that she is Vorels original daughter, thus he feels that she is a sibling

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I made it easier for monsters to integrate into society. The majority are still evil, and secluded villages might still attack on sight, but most major cities accept non-humanoid creatures, as long as they behave.
I did included this because of the RotRL campaign

RotRL intro Spoiler (nothing major, only a snippet from the start):
At the begining there is a play mentioned, with a major star playing the Harpy-Queen. I made this star an actual harpy. This was also what made the edgy goblins flip, and begin the raid early.

Andoran is still a slavery-hating Democracy, but it didn´t completly abolished nobility. The democratic system is more like Victorian England, with many chances for common houses to ascend.

Hmm, I might have an idea for the amnesiac half-elf

Lets say Vorel Foxgloves wife, Kasanda, was an elf. Plus she was also a powerful mage. When the necromantic storm from Vorels failed Lich-transformation came over the manor, Kasanda tried to teleport her child away. Because of the magical residue still in the air, the spell slightly malfunctioned, teleporting her child to Magnimar a hundred years in the future. Plus, it ripped away most of her memory.

This origin could be used, to make Foxglove manor even creepier, as the PCs see pictures of the half elf, and the haunts seem to have something to do with her.

If she is Alderns obsession, the messages could be modified to Big Sister (When he met her in Sandpoint, he could not place her face, because he still had not come to terms with what happened in the manor, making him unable to remeber any portraits of her)

Well, there are so called Vilkacis, which are basically werewolf-ghosts.

Thanks for the quick answer :-)

Do creatures of the dark Tapestry posess souls. If they do, are they different than normal souls, or are they also jugded by Pharasma?

Is there a way to make undead attuned to positive energy?

What´s your best story about times, where the heroes didn´t just plundered eachothers corpses (or a NPC´s at that)?
I had to special moments:

1: PF. The Human Cleric died in the middle of the desert early during the adventure by a really unlucky crit by a mummy. The party transported his corpse three days, plagued by ghouls invistigating the stench. Meanwhile the Cleric´s spirit fought against ethereal creatures trying to posses the corpse.
He was later ressurected by a Desert Druid Npc as a Harpy (real random chance, openly thrown)

2: Shadowrun. The Elvish Streetsam was killed a Humanis-Leader. The character had a preference for trenchcoats and hats. So when the team made a retribution strike against Humanis, the whole team adobted a simelar outfit.

Every mention of Baphomet: His servants are the Templars of the ivory Labyrinth
The real Knights Templars were accused of worshipping a demon named Baphomet
I love such RL references

The Golarion gods are independent from each other. They have areas of concern, but they can overlap (unlike for example the old Romans, who had a Goddes of sewers)

What one god accepts as marriage is not marriage in the eyes of another. While Shelyn might consider a simple exchange of vows as marriage, Asmodeus will ask for contracts and long ceremonies.
Different faiths also have different understandings, what marriage is. For Shelyn it´s an expression of love, for Gorum a special bond of arms, for Asmodeus a form of alliance.

ISG describes the different gods views on marriage.

Prisoner of Goblins
Wandering Hero
Reinforcment sent by Hemlock

LazarX wrote:
Given that the elves do a very good job of keeping it contained, there's no reason to assume that tiefling births are that common outside of the 'briar.

Don´t know about that. Mendevs Wardstones are likely much more powerfull than the elven defenses, and still Tieflingbirths are at an all time high. Plus Demons Revisited mentions one of Treerazers Glabrezus killing a Ranger by twisting his lover back at home against him, so demons can move outside Tanglebriar.

How are the Elves in Kyonin treating their Tieflingchildren? Since Tanglebriar is rather close, Tieflingbirths shouldn´t be very uncommon.

A Warpriest can take any weapon as his divine weapon
Kukris are martial Weapons, so the Warpriest is progicent

I know its unbalenced, I made this draft with the encounters from Book1.
I am still trying to find a way to calculate a good number for several levels.
As for the Polar Pudding Flavor: I don´t see the problem. It´s an ooze, so while the PCs fight the main body, the caravan fights of smaller tentacles,maybe reduce the oozes Attack a little to represent it hitting more than one target (Flavor trumps rules in this case).
Reputation can come from snow goblins watching the fight to scavage, prisoners might wikkiwak hiding from the ooze nearby. The GM just needs a little imagination.

Many people say that the caravan combat rules are broken as written and suggest to ignore them and run caravan encounters as simple PC encounters.
Personally I try to find a solution that lets the PC be heroes, while still including the caravan into combat. I got this idea while playing Edge of the Empire
My idea: Remove Hitpoints
The PCs face of against the leader(s) of the attack, while his minions fight the caravan. Each turn is also a caravan combat turn. The damage won´t reduce the HP but instead counted.

After the PCs defeat the leader the damage done will be counted and compared to selfmade tables. First the damage done to the caravan. The score might be reduced by great combat performance of the PC (Defeating the leader in 2 or less turns, not taking damage,...). This table includes the effect on the caravan. 0-30 Damage means only scratches, results between 30-60 could include broken goods, wounded NPCs,
or damaged wagons, while results over 60 might mean killed (minor) NPCs or destroyed wagons. Afterwards the damage done by the caravan, increased if PCs helped the caravan, is compared to another table, this one containing effects like additional loot, captured enemies, reputation (lesser random encounters) or heroic deeds of NPC (increases morale).

I just had the idea, but I think its a good way to include the caravan without stealing the PCs thunder. I´m still working on the tables (I know that I´ll have to change them every level)


Kroops big role comes in the second adventure, because he is the most senior pirate on the ship and teaches the PCs on the ways of the Shackles. Otherwise he´s pretty forgetable. Another officer of the Wormwood can easily have a fight with Harrigan, and be replaced with a ´sailor from the Man´s Promise. Grok might be a good choice.
The PC might also find a grizzled pirate on the island

Why did they want to see Kroop dead anyway?

I know it´s a game but: Sacred 2

Tacticslion wrote:

His agenda is "I'm a chaotic evil abyss-dwelling monstrosity focused on bats, blood, caverns, and nocturnal predators."

I mean, who would worship a goddess of gluttony, disease, and undeath? The priests who worship her (because her portfolio is of interest to them). That's Urgathoa.

Agenda means goals. Even CE gods have an endgoal. Their interests are simelar to this goals, but they don´t really reveal them. Kostchichie wants to recover the stolen fragment of his soul, to regain his former form, despite having giants in his portfolio. Urxhel hates trolls, despite having trolls in his portfolio. Hell, even Cthulluh has an endgoal. Camatzoz is either a mindless monster, or he has a goal.

Does he want to cover the world in shadows? Does he want to tear down society? Thats my question.
And the black blood of Orv? Did he want it, because it was powerful magic, or did he want it because it´s a metapher for blood? This behaviour suggest a greater plan.

Urgathoas worshippers are people seeking immortality and people who want enjoy endless feasts, humanoids, and undead.
This is the bulk of her church.
What is the bulk of Camazotz church? Werebats? Assassinsguilds? Savages, who fear the darkness? Aberrations?

Okay, thats helpful, but whats his agenda? And who are these priests who worship him?

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