Is binding an evil outsider an evil act?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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>Uh...preventing spell preparation for a Cleric who doesn't need to sleep isn't that easy. It may be impossible. And a few of those tricks are stuff it comes prepared with, so it wouldn't need to prepare anything.

From the SRD:

>Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells.

Pay a bard band to play hard rock in the binding room 24/7. No quiet contemplation=no spells.

Grand Lodge

Just because there's a band in the room doesn't mean the preparer isn't quietly contemplating their spells.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Just because there's a band in the room doesn't mean the preparer isn't quietly contemplating their spells.

It is quite hard to quietly contemplate anything when Sabaton is playing "Screaming Eagles" in the same room as you at full volume.

Grand Lodge

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You underestimate an angels patience.


vadda wrote:
ok.is it even possible to be a successful wizard specialized on binding outsiders having low charisma and not being evil?

Define your standards for success. What would it take for you to consider that character successful? How much of your character is bound up to the idea of binding?, which to me seems more of a planar slavemaster than a "good" character.


A successful binding specialized wizard has a high probability to perform a successful binding act. I will play wotr and if I need infos I wanna have binding as a tool in my pocket. I hope this is an answer to how my character is bound up to the idea. I am thinking about building a little acadamy (I want to go into leadership). My studends should help me binding evil outsiders if needed. But maybe I will just use the evil side of binding as a roleplaying option (as someone mentioned in this thread) and will just let it run and see what is going to happen.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Just because there's a band in the room doesn't mean the preparer isn't quietly contemplating their spells.

So which group is tougher -- the band or the cleric and his friends?

If it is the cleric and his friends, they can take a minute or less to eliminate the problem. If it is the band, they should go ahead and kill the cleric and his friends instead of torturing them with their music for hours on end.

Grand Lodge

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How does that help with binding the outsider? o.O

Sure, murdering the caster prevents them from preparing spells, but I fail to see the relevance.


vadda wrote:
A successful binding specialized wizard has a high probability to perform a successful binding act. I will play wotr and if I need infos I wanna have binding as a tool in my pocket. I hope this is an answer to how my character is bound up to the idea. I am thinking about building a little acadamy (I want to go into leadership). My studends should help me binding evil outsiders if needed. But maybe I will just use the evil side of binding as a roleplaying option (as someone mentioned in this thread) and will just let it run and see what is going to happen.

Interestingly enough, when we played WOTR, the character who did pretty much the most summoning was my Paladin. It just worked out that way.


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vadda wrote:
honestly we are not talking about ripping of the outsiders arms and legs and torturing him with spikes! Or spells like agonize. According to the guide I am refering to the relevant spells are 1. bestow curse, 2. touch of idiocy, 3. lesser gear (putting a coin beside the circle and tell command the outsider to get it) and 4. enervation.

Mostly because the guide stemmed from a lot of the things that I learned while dealing with a neutral to good aligned summoning character. It was intended to show that even if you're dealing with a creature that was hostile (a bound fiend that'd probably like to rip your noggin' off your shoulders and use it as a bowling ball) you could succeed without jumping to extreme lengths.

However, in the case of the evil caster, you can also be particularly mean and use things like reach weapons to beat the outsider into submission, bind them up really good, and really make the situation suck evermore worse for them.

Of course, planar binding doesn't have to be used for subjugation (it's just very good at it). You can simply use the spell to call an outsider (you don't even need a secure circle, though in traditional uses you'll want one). Nothing stops you from using social skills like Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate to try to get something to agree to your terms. That's assuming you specify any terms at all, or just make the term something harmless like "Act under your own free will and return when you are ready".

Oh, and thinking about it, Intimidate is another way to further bully an outsider into submission. It's a nonmagical way to apply a -2 penalty to those ability checks.

Liberty's Edge

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vadda wrote:
If torture is an evil act, what about killing? A paladin who comes to mendev just to erase all evil by going into the worldwound and killing every demon he encounters. Or should he just start talking to them, try to convince them to start being good and if that will not work he has to go to the next encounter doing the same.

It is absolutely possible to believe that killing is often justified but torture never is. Look at the Geneva Convention. There are good reasons for that attitude, too. Killing someone can be necessary to prevent them from doing horrible things, whereas torture is pretty much useless for anything but breaking people down and making them say whatever they think you want to hear (Note: Not actually likely to be the truth).

vadda wrote:
Or what about inqusition in Kenabres killing witches in the name of Iomedae?

That's explicitly Evil and disapproved of by the Goddess, I believe.

vadda wrote:
How is the situation of a creature living in (stick to the example) mendev who is facing murderer and probably rape by demons all his life? He could decides to go against it and tries to push it back into the abyss and one tool for it is biniding and bargainig demons to get more information how to destroy the evil force.

Sure. That's a reasonable plan. Torture is a terrible way to go about it, though.

vadda wrote:
We are back to the greater good. But compared to our world the paladin obeys the rules of his god and does not stick to the categorial imperativ.

This is actually not true. Alignment is a law of existence. It's not decided by the gods, and Paladins are not primarily empowered by the Gods, but by their own righteousness. Atheist Paladins are very possible, for example.

vadda wrote:
Let's face it there are existing goods in this world people believe in and these gods give the rules of what is good and what action is good not instead of immanuel kant. There is no need for enlightenment and oust the goods from there thrones.

The Gods do not dictate alignment, is the thing. Alignment is a law of the universe that even the gods can't break or change.

vadda wrote:
So we have to analyse what theie goods say to rate an act good or evil?

Actually, no. Even the good Gods are imperfect and might be wrong about some things. You're looking at the gods through a very Judaeo-Christian definition of 'God', which is inaccurate. Think Greek or Norse Gods instead.

vadda wrote:

This is a sentence that describes iomedae:

"She would rather convince evildoers to lay down their arms in honorable surrender than cut them down, but she will wield her mighty sword against those who persist in serving evil."

Sure. That isn't exactly an approval for torture, though, is it?

vadda wrote:
Ok, now there is an evil outsider that persist in serving evil (level5) with information about an evil outsider that persist in serving evil (level 10) with information how to close a planar door to the abyss 100 of serving evil creatures could come through. I guess Iomedae would say: "Dude, get that information with a binding spell and shut that fu*ing door". Ok, you could say this not an honorable action but the wizard would say: "Stand up to an demonlord just by myself is honorable"

Uh...I'm pretty sure Iomedae would be fine with binding a Demon under those circumstances. Of course, binding a Demon who's already there is probably the best way to do that, and isn't an Evil act (Magic Circle Against Evil to bind it is a Good act, actually). And torture is an awful way to get any information out of it.

Liberty's Edge

Aratrok wrote:
Magic Circle wrote:
A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level.
You can cast the anchor in advance.

Okay. You can still cast Dispel Magic on it, though.

Klara Meison wrote:

>Uh...preventing spell preparation for a Cleric who doesn't need to sleep isn't that easy. It may be impossible. And a few of those tricks are stuff it comes prepared with, so it wouldn't need to prepare anything.

From the SRD:

>Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells.

Pay a bard band to play hard rock in the binding room 24/7. No quiet contemplation=no spells.

I said 'may'. It rather depends on how restrictive the GM is with Cleric spell preparation. The quoted paragraph is actually pretty ambiguous whether 'supplication' needs to be quiet. I'd certainly allow a Gorumite to prepare spells in the midst of the noise of battle, or a devotee of Shelyn to do so while any music at all were playing.


You can cast dispel magic if you wanted, I guess. A trapped creature cannot disturb the circle (the base effect of an inward magic circle) or the diagram (the additional effect created with a Spellcraft check and discharging a dimensional anchor) directly or indirectly in any way whatsoever.

Magic Circle wrote:
The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can.
Also Magic Circle wrote:
he creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above.

Liberty's Edge

True, but nothing about how the spell works makes Dimensional Anchor count as part of the Magic Circle.


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Considering it's an effect on the circle (not the creature)...

Magic Circle wrote:
A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle...

...is an effect from the circle's spell text, and they still can't do anything that would directly or indirectly disturb the circle or diagram... no, they still can't.

Liberty's Edge

Aratrok wrote:

Considering it's an effect on the circle (not the creature)...

Magic Circle wrote:
A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle...
...is an effect from the circle's spell text, and they still can't do anything that would directly or indirectly disturb the circle or diagram... no, they still can't.

Uh...breaking a Dimensional Anchor on, say, a sword, doesn't disturb the sword. Nothing about the terminology changes how that works in this instance.

It being cast on the Magic Circle itself would matter if you needed to target the Circle, but you don't. You can target spells themselves, including the Dimensional Anchor.

Now, this basically never matters except when dealing with creatures with both at-will Dispel Magic and dimensional movement abilities (which aren't common). But it does work for such creatures.


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vadda wrote:
honestly we are not talking about ripping of the outsiders arms and legs and torturing him with spikes! Or spells like agonize. According to the guide I am refering to the relevant spells are 1. bestow curse, 2. touch of idiocy, 3. lesser gear (putting a coin beside the circle and tell command the outsider to get it) and 4. enervation.

That would be fine. Debuffing the outsider like crazy isn't the same as torture. It was the torture part that you mentioned that makes it evil.


Eviljames wrote:
vadda wrote:
honestly we are not talking about ripping of the outsiders arms and legs and torturing him with spikes! Or spells like agonize. According to the guide I am refering to the relevant spells are 1. bestow curse, 2. touch of idiocy, 3. lesser gear (putting a coin beside the circle and tell command the outsider to get it) and 4. enervation.
That would be fine. Debuffing the outsider like crazy isn't the same as torture. It was the torture part that you mentioned that makes it evil.

Number 3 would essentially break the circle since you're giving the outsider leave to exit it by commanding it to do so.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Almost certainly, but small children are inherently evil.

The two week old baby sitting on my chest is proof enough.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
It's actually incredibly unreasonable. They likely have no idea who you are and what you will ask them to do. For all they know you intend on using the spell to have them slaughter innocents, trick a pious follower of a good aligned deity, or commit other evil acts.

QFT. If a friend calls and asks me for a favour, I get details before I agree.

Many of the outsiders a wizard would prefer to call have higher INT than I do.


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Ashiel wrote:
Of course, planar binding doesn't have to be used for subjugation (it's just very good at it). You can simply use the spell to call an outsider...Nothing stops you from using social skills like Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate to try to get something to agree to your terms.

See that's how I think a Good PC would deal with a Good outsider.

I don't see anyone being... brave... enough to do this to a even a little Cambion, never mind a Balor.


Re: unreasonable for an angel to do evil. Consider this:

The angel would do evil for the wizard for at most one mortal lifetime. If the wizard flesh-to-stones the angel and throws her into the ocean, she would be prevented from doing good for all eternity. Even worse, the wizard can just sell the angel to hell for a +6 on his check to bind a devil.

So really, serving the wizard for 10ish days is not really that unreasonable. Plus you can have some plucky heroes avenge you.


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Based on more recent comments it sounds like maybe the “torture” being referred to by the OP isn’t particularly violent or painful. Perhaps it is more like kidnapping somebody and then browbeating them into submission? Anyhow, as Ashiel alluded to, you can simply call the outsider, explain your offer, and let the outsider choose whether to accept, go back where it came from, or run around the local area doing whatever sort of stuff that kind of outsider might want to do.

If you call a Good outsider to perform a task aligned with its ethos maybe that's all which would be needed. If you're calling an Evil outsider you've already cast a spell which Good aligned deities might frown upon and brought a powerful Evil entity onto the Material Plane. The fact you're calling an Evil outsider instead of a Good one also might suggest that you're calling it for an Evil purpose since else it would be safer and easier to contract the services of a Good outsider. I'd think that all of this might raise a few divine eyebrows.

@Starbuck II - You’ve presented an interesting situation since if I say something bad about a small child that probably makes me a jerk. Since you brought it up I’ll guess that your niece is a wonderful and well adjusted child or adult now, but I don’t think the fact somebody is OK now means that everything he or she ever did must have been OK too.

We had a few kids in our neighborhood who sprayed some animals such as frogs with “gum cutter” (a product used to clean engines) and then set them on fire. Those kids were somebody’s nephews. Anyhow, I’m assuming that the caster of Planar Binding probably isn’t a little kid and therefore probably understands the implications of his or her actions.


Devilkiller wrote:

Based on more recent comments it sounds like maybe the “torture” being referred to by the OP isn’t particularly violent or painful. Perhaps it is more like kidnapping somebody and then browbeating them into submission? Anyhow, as Ashiel alluded to, you can simply call the outsider, explain your offer, and let the outsider choose whether to accept, go back where it came from, or run around the local area doing whatever sort of stuff that kind of outsider might want to do.

If you call a Good outsider to perform a task aligned with its ethos maybe that's all which would be needed. If you're calling an Evil outsider you've already cast a spell which Good aligned deities might frown upon and brought a powerful Evil entity onto the Material Plane. The fact you're calling an Evil outsider instead of a Good one also might suggest that you're calling it for an Evil purpose since else it would be safer and easier to contract the services of a Good outsider. I'd think that all of this might raise a few divine eyebrows.

@Starbuck II - You’ve presented an interesting situation since if I say something bad about a small child that probably makes me a jerk. Since you brought it up I’ll guess that your niece is a wonderful and well adjusted child or adult now, but I don’t think the fact somebody is OK now means that everything he or she ever did must have been OK too.

We had a few kids in our neighborhood who sprayed some animals such as frogs with “gum cutter” (a product used to clean engines) and then set them on fire. Those kids were somebody’s nephews. Anyhow, I’m assuming that the caster of Planar Binding probably isn’t a little kid and therefore probably understands the implications of his or her actions.

Yeah, she is a great kid now: great grades/behavior. Stopped keeping flies as pets.


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Knight Magenta wrote:

Re: unreasonable for an angel to do evil. Consider this:

The angel would do evil for the wizard for at most one mortal lifetime. If the wizard flesh-to-stones the angel and throws her into the ocean, she would be prevented from doing good for all eternity. Even worse, the wizard can just sell the angel to hell for a +6 on his check to bind a devil.

So really, serving the wizard for 10ish days is not really that unreasonable. Plus you can have some plucky heroes avenge you.

That's assuming a rather Utilitarian approach to morality, tough. An Angel is more likely to be Kantian. No morally Evil acts, ever, as those could never be justified.

Funny thought: I like to add a "beacon", or rather, "distress call" mechanic for Outsiders. Basically, it means that the % chance of an Outsider of the same alignment appearing rises steadily as long as you keep the summoned one captive. It adds a "countdown" on negations, as Wizards and such probably don't want an army of extraplanars banging on their door.

Of course, Demons and Devils don't answer such distress calls with any sort of predictability (They are more likely to be laughing their ass off at the stupid one who managed to get caught), but keep an Angel chained for a year and a day and you WILL have a Planetar breathing on your neck.

It's loads of fun.


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Even a lot of regular people in the real world will become martyrs rather than betray their beliefs to gain mercy from somebody who has power over them. I'd think a Lawful Good outsider should probably be even more principled.

I guess each DM needs to reach his or her own decision on what's "unreasonable" in a particular game. If you've got a player who wants to turn Planar Binding into an installment of the "Saw" movies that could be interesting for some games and an off putting nuisance for others.


Patrick C. wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:

Re: unreasonable for an angel to do evil. Consider this:

The angel would do evil for the wizard for at most one mortal lifetime. If the wizard flesh-to-stones the angel and throws her into the ocean, she would be prevented from doing good for all eternity. Even worse, the wizard can just sell the angel to hell for a +6 on his check to bind a devil.

So really, serving the wizard for 10ish days is not really that unreasonable. Plus you can have some plucky heroes avenge you.

That's assuming a rather Utilitarian approach to morality, tough. An Angel is more likely to be Kantian. No morally Evil acts, ever, as those could never be justified.

Funny thought: I like to add a "beacon", or rather, "distress call" mechanic for Outsiders. Basically, it means that the % chance of an Outsider of the same alignment appearing rises steadily as long as you keep the summoned one captive. It adds a "countdown" on negations, as Wizards and such probably don't want an army of extraplanars banging on their door.

Of course, Demons and Devils don't answer such distress calls with any sort of predictability (They are more likely to be laughing their ass off at the stupid one who managed to get caught), but keep an Angel chained for a year and a day and you WILL have a Planetar breathing on your neck.

It's loads of fun.

My argument is mostly a trick anyway... The correct response is: "if angels adopt the policy of never negotiating, then wizards will stop summoning them and stick to devils" :p

Does anything stop the binder from charming the angel into agreeing to his terms?


I didnt realize getting your mental stats reduced to 1 from a combo of cursing, geasing, and various other spells was "negotiations."

As for charming, even if you the Angel's best friend, why would they commit a crime at your request?


Insain Dragoon wrote:
As for charming, even if you the Angel's best friend, why would they commit a crime at your request?

Indeed. A charmed Angel would try to persuade you to find a better way to accomplish your goals that didn't require doing anything evil. He might be your best friend, but he's still lawful good incarnate.


Summoner: Hey Angel, Serve me for a year. I'm your pal so you can trust me.
Angel: Well, you are my best friend. Sure!
Planar Binding: The contract is sealed!
Summoner: Now angel, go bring me as many orphan scalps as you can.
Angel: Hmmmm, I should have foreseen this.


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Knight Magenta wrote:

Summoner: Hey Angel, Serve me for a year. I'm your pal so you can trust me.

Angel: Well, you are my best friend. Sure!
Planar Binding: The contract is sealed!
Summoner: Now angel, go bring me as many orphan scalps as you can.
Angel: Hmmmm, I should have foreseen this.

Eh. With enough magic, it is possible to do this morally.

Mostly requires sleep (anesthesia) spells and some healing spells to get their scalp back.

Really, farming one child repeatedly probably ahs its advantages. You learn how to get really good at scalping little jimmy.


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lemeres wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:

Summoner: Hey Angel, Serve me for a year. I'm your pal so you can trust me.

Angel: Well, you are my best friend. Sure!
Planar Binding: The contract is sealed!
Summoner: Now angel, go bring me as many orphan scalps as you can.
Angel: Hmmmm, I should have foreseen this.

Eh. With enough magic, it is possible to do this morally.

Mostly requires sleep (anesthesia) spells and some healing spells to get their scalp back.

Really, farming one child repeatedly probably ahs its advantages. You learn how to get really good at scalping little jimmy.

That's is at once creepy and really flavorful. I could imagine a party come upon a celestial surrounded by unconscious children that it is scalping, and the poor thing having to convince them that it is enslaved.


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Knight Magenta wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:

Summoner: Hey Angel, Serve me for a year. I'm your pal so you can trust me.

Angel: Well, you are my best friend. Sure!
Planar Binding: The contract is sealed!
Summoner: Now angel, go bring me as many orphan scalps as you can.
Angel: Hmmmm, I should have foreseen this.

Eh. With enough magic, it is possible to do this morally.

Mostly requires sleep (anesthesia) spells and some healing spells to get their scalp back.

Really, farming one child repeatedly probably ahs its advantages. You learn how to get really good at scalping little jimmy.

That's is at once creepy and really flavorful. I could imagine a party come upon a celestial surrounded by unconscious children that it is scalping, and the poor thing having to convince them that it is enslaved.

I came across the idea during a discussion of paladins and being forced into cannibalism due to extreme situations (such as stranded at sea).

I came to the conclusion that a paladin could use lay on hands and restoration in order to use himself for a 'communion' by offering his flesh and blood. It was the ultimate moral act in the situation.

Magic can sometimes make things weird when you try to use it in the most efficient way through unintended benefits. Morality can sometimes hing on finding the right cheat with the spells at hand and getting over how creepy it is.


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lemeres wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:

Summoner: Hey Angel, Serve me for a year. I'm your pal so you can trust me.

Angel: Well, you are my best friend. Sure!
Planar Binding: The contract is sealed!
Summoner: Now angel, go bring me as many orphan scalps as you can.
Angel: Hmmmm, I should have foreseen this.

Eh. With enough magic, it is possible to do this morally.

Mostly requires sleep (anesthesia) spells and some healing spells to get their scalp back.

Really, farming one child repeatedly probably ahs its advantages. You learn how to get really good at scalping little jimmy.

That's is at once creepy and really flavorful. I could imagine a party come upon a celestial surrounded by unconscious children that it is scalping, and the poor thing having to convince them that it is enslaved.

I came across the idea during a discussion of paladins and being forced into cannibalism due to extreme situations (such as stranded at sea).

I came to the conclusion that a paladin could use lay on hands and restoration in order to use himself for a 'communion' by offering his flesh and blood. It was the ultimate moral act in the situation.

Magic can sometimes make things weird when you try to use it in the most efficient way through unintended benefits. Morality can sometimes hing on finding the right cheat with the spells at hand and getting over how creepy it is.

Restoration is not regenerate. Lay of Hands is not regenerate. Eventually you run out of Paladin by not leaving enough of a viable body to survive.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:

Summoner: Hey Angel, Serve me for a year. I'm your pal so you can trust me.

Angel: Well, you are my best friend. Sure!
Planar Binding: The contract is sealed!
Summoner: Now angel, go bring me as many orphan scalps as you can.
Angel: Hmmmm, I should have foreseen this.

Eh. With enough magic, it is possible to do this morally.

Mostly requires sleep (anesthesia) spells and some healing spells to get their scalp back.

Really, farming one child repeatedly probably ahs its advantages. You learn how to get really good at scalping little jimmy.

That's is at once creepy and really flavorful. I could imagine a party come upon a celestial surrounded by unconscious children that it is scalping, and the poor thing having to convince them that it is enslaved.

I came across the idea during a discussion of paladins and being forced into cannibalism due to extreme situations (such as stranded at sea).

I came to the conclusion that a paladin could use lay on hands and restoration in order to use himself for a 'communion' by offering his flesh and blood. It was the ultimate moral act in the situation.

Magic can sometimes make things weird when you try to use it in the most efficient way through unintended benefits. Morality can sometimes hing on finding the right cheat with the spells at hand and getting over how creepy it is.

Restoration is not regenerate. Lay of Hands is not regenerate. Eventually you run out of Paladin by not leaving enough of a viable body to survive.

By that logic Gator animal companions should tear off a limb everytime they deathroll. When a Worg bites you you should take Con/Dex/Str damage only able to be recovered through regenerate, ect.


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Insain Dragoon wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Restoration is not regenerate. Lay of Hands is not regenerate. Eventually you run out of Paladin by not leaving enough of a viable body to survive.
By that logic Gator animal companions should tear off a limb everytime they deathroll. When a Worg bites you you should take Con/Dex/Str damage only able to be recovered through regenerate, ect.

That was the general logic I was working with. He was only slicing off part of his muscles, and not the whole arm/leg. I assume having muscles ripped up counts as permanent ability damage.

But even without the meat, I could imagine working with blood as an emergency measure, at least. That should just work with lay on hands.

And there is still the general point- at some arbitrary point with certain classes, classic disasters just stop working.


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I think that a Paladin who supports his followers on "My holy blood" would be a pretty weird character, but it made me wonder how much nutrition there is in blood anyhow. Assuming that human blood would be relatively close in nutritional value to lamb blood it looks like it is at least a great source of protein.

I'd kind of like to give my mythic Viking PC the ability to raise an animal companion so that he could have goats (or something) to kill and eat each night like Thor. Fighters don't get animal companions though, and it didn't seem worth the feats for the flavor (um - roleplaying flavor, not goat flavor - I can get that at the local Caribbean restaurant)


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Devilkiller wrote:
I think that a Paladin who supports his followers on "My holy blood" would be a pretty weird character, but it made me wonder how much nutrition there is in blood anyhow. Assuming that human blood would be relatively close in nutritional value to lamb blood it looks like it is at least a great source of protein.

You could possibly get enough to keep on going, but you would likely have severe problems with the amount of iron (even the 1/6 a cup of blood seems to have your daily needed amount).

Of course, lay on hands can also deal with nausea and sickened conditions. So you could probably deal with the effects somehow.


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I guess if nothing else I guess the Paladin could help prepare the blood as a sacrifice for some mighty demon or devil which is the only one capable of saving the orphange/city/world/farm. The moral implications of this seem unclear to me. I mean, I guess a Paladin could also become sort of a holy prostitute who tries to placate Evil outsiders with sexual favors. At least he or she would be immune to disease ("All our companions are Paladins, so you know they're clean!")

What some groups find clever/amusing/fun others might find offensive/stupid/annoying - I think that's ultimately the case for a lot of this stuff, and if you try to force your opinion on a group of people who don't want it there's likely to be conflict regardless of how people on the boards interpret RAW.


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Calistria has antipaladins who placate creatures with sexual favors, not paladins.


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This question has several components based on exactly what the summoner does.

For example if you are making an neutral bargain with an evil creature (say buying tomatoes from the local grower who happens to be evil) then you are going to be okay.

Look even we "extraplanar" creatures have some regular and civil dealings with each other. An angel and I can agree barains should be upheld, while a lillend and I might both attend a concert.

Simply acknowledging each other and being polite does not require much or inflict any nastiness on anyone involved.

Now my kind do tend to be more open about accepting all sorts of deals that the "good guys" wouldn't do but that's just because we are more willing to realize it takes all kinds.

The point you have to be care with through are:

How we get to you to bargain.
How you bargain.
What you pay.
How the job gets done (kind of like subcontractors, we do the work but you are responsible for the results).

Also to point out binding a demon for the purposes of locking it away for etenrity is something I think we can all get behind.


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Also I must say it is hard typing on a cellphone with talons...

Also, auto correct is not a hellish invention, despite what other may tell you. The demons came up with that little joy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Snakers wrote:
Calistria has antipaladins who placate creatures with sexual favors, not paladins.

Lymneris says hi.

Liberty's Edge

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Snakers wrote:
Calistria has antipaladins who placate creatures with sexual favors, not paladins.
Lymneris says hi.

Arshea, too. Arshea's followers are probably not prostitutes per se, but seducing Evil creatures and 'corrupting' them to good? Or even just placating them? Totally in their wheelhouse, at least potentially.


It looks like "holy hookers" might be more common than I would have thought. Maybe King Lubomyr (Paladin 4 / Bard 13) from our Kingmaker game had the right idea when he built a Brothel first in every city...um...Dance Hall that is!


Now I am imagining an anime that is about a girl that inherents a brothel where half the staff is paladins and the other half is antipaladins and her only advisor is a old lecherous cleric of Shelyn.


That anime idea leaves me with a lot of other ideas best left unsaid. None of them involve the Kraken Caller archetype for Druids though, really - ("I will bring the Balance back, you servants of extreme alignments! Let me show you how!")

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