I just read through this awesome Planar Binding Guide since I want to play a good wizard with binding specialisation. The author let the demon in the circle for days and tortures she with curse spells and lesser geas to drop her charisma for a better bargaining chance. Now I was wondering if a good aligned wizard can do this without getting into trouble with his god. I would say he can since he is doing this for the greater good and this creature is evil anyway but would like to know what you think.
Would it matter being neutral/chaotic or lawful coz I have not set that yet?
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Context matters. But an important principle in being Good is that you don't acquire Good credits by practicing evil, even if the target itself IS evil. Or in other words, Ends Do Not Justify The Means.
This character is a prime example of someone slipping towards evil without realizing it. He's becoming more and more inured towards using the ways of evil on others.
This sort of descent is pretty much a classic trope for how many wizards turn to evil.
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Well, you did bring up one of the buzzwords, which is "torture". And then you will get into the moral argument of whether torture of an individual (even a demon) to save the greater whole is a good act or not.
Ultimately, it's going to come down to a discussion between you and your GM. For me, binding is a grey area. Binding in and of itself is not an evil act. What you do from there is generally where the problems lie.
For a literary example, in The Dresden Files, this would violate one of the White Council's Laws of Magic and the punishment would be death.
Well, you did bring up one of the buzzwords, which is "torture". And then you will get into the moral argument of whether torture of an individual (even a demon) to save the greater whole is a good act or not.
Ultimately, it's going to come down to a discussion between you and your GM. For me, binding is a grey area. Binding in and of itself is not an evil act. What you do from there is generally where the problems lie.
For a literary example, in The Dresden Files, this would violate one of the White Council's Laws of Magic and the punishment would be death.
Screw Dresden, that example is more of Arbitrary Authority Abuse. I'm actually thinking in terms of real life social experiments on the topic, such as the Milgram Experiment, and the Stanford Prison Experiment, which I encourage people to look up.
Aristocrats as they are ARE playable, as are Experts and Warriors. The big catch is what kind of campaign are you building? It's quite possible to build a campaign where the only classes that exist are the NPC classes and make it work. But you have to scrap the standard playbook to do so.
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Aristocrats as they are ARE playable, as are Experts and Warriors. The big catch is what kind of campaign are you building? It's quite possible to build a campaign where the only classes that exist are the NPC classes and make it work. But you have to scrap the standard playbook to do so.
Is... this supposed to be part of a different conversation, or am I really missing a point somewhere?
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Screw Dresden, that example is more of Arbitrary Authority Abuse. I'm actually thinking in terms of real life social experiments on the topic, such as the Milgram Experiment, and the Stanford Prison Experiment, which I encourage people to look up.
I wasn't looking to get that detailed or that grim in the discussion. Figured whenever the good v evil question comes up it would get enough "real life" without my help. So I stuck to fantasy.
And no, in Dresden, it's not the Laws of Magic that are the problem, it's the application thereof that is in issue - specifically when Morgan is involved. But this also isn't a Dresden thread, it just happened to be the first thing that popped to mind.
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Well the planar binding spell takes on the descriptor (I think that's the right word) ([evil], [chaotic], [fire], etc.) depending on what you are summoning. Some believe that casting a spell with the [evil] descriptor is an evil act. Some people disagree of course.
My personal opinion is that "the greater good" is a slippery slope that leads to evil. However, one evil act is not going to make him shift to N or NE. If he did this on a daily basis his alignment might shift eventually.
There's nothing stopping him from dong this though. His god doesn't give him his powers so they can't really punish him. Nor would they want to over one infringement. Could add a nice RP element into his story as well.
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> awesome Planar Binding Guide
Bet you it's written by Ashiel.
*opens it*
Yep, written by Ashiel.
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Even if he does slip a step after an Evil-Outsider-a-Day®, that shouldn't worry him too much.
It's still possible to be within one step of his god, if he's the right Good alignment.
And besides, Neutral's not that bad, is it...?
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Is coercing a serial killer to do your bidding an evil act? If your morality sense is tingling, it is probably evil.
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Calling Fiends to the material plane is super risky. There's always a chance they'll escape, after all. So...yeah, that part's Evil. In a 'negligent lack of concern for others' kind of way. Barring some pressing need for fiends rather than other Outsiders, anyway, and I'm not thinking of any scenarios where that's necessary.
Binding them isn't necessarily Evil, but usually involves either bribing them (probably Evil given what you need to bribe them with) or torturing them (definitely Evil...torturing Evil people is still Evil).
So...this is pretty Evil any way you look at it.
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And besides, Neutral's not that bad, is it...?
No, but torture often comes on that 'slippery slope' kind of thing.
I would say it is better if he doesn't make a practice of it. Doing it once because of an emergency might be... passable (ie- breaking a demon's will to find out where it is hiding the blind/deaf orphans before they die of dehydration). But once you start doing it enough that you are getting GOOD at torture and binding of evil outsiders... yeah...
Now I was wondering if a good aligned wizard can do this without getting into trouble with his god.
I just want to focus on this sentence.
You're a wizard, not a cleric.
You're literally not beholden to any god for your power.
The deity you worship cannot deny you your power, because your power comes from within. So it doesn't matter if you worshipped Sarenrae, and then become the Torturer of All Evils in the Multiverse! I mean, Sarenrae probably wont listen to your prays, and you probably wont be anything to her other than someone who pays lips service. Which is to say you actions and ideals will not match with hers.
But you're also a wizard, so you don't really give a damn what the gods think.
The deity you worship cannot deny you your power, because your power comes from within. So it doesn't matter if you worshipped Sarenrae, and then become the Torturer of All Evils in the Multiverse! I mean, Sarenrae probably wont listen to your prays, and you probably wont be anything to her other than someone who pays lips service. Which is to say you actions and ideals will not match with hers.
But you're also a wizard, so you don't really give a damn what the gods think.
I think that bolded part is the important thing. This sounds, from context, like a very pious arcanist.
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The most evil thing about outsider binding is how much it can negatively impact the play experience of everyone else at the table in my experience.
Bard Bro? Take a back seat, my succubus got this.
Rogue Bro? My Invisible Imp will take care of the scouting, take a back seat.
Fighter bro? I have like 4 Bearded devils, you can pop a squat.
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THERE IS NOTHING EVIL ABOUT BINDING US EVIL OUTSIDERS. FOR THE RECORD.
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That said, I will add: it's not inherently evil to call and bind evil outsiders - at least not in an alignment-turning way.
What it is, is dangerous.
It is dangerous because:
- they could escape
- they could tempt you
- they could deceive you
- they could pervert your orders
- they could fulfill your orders exactly as you intend when they know better
- they could be so daggum reasonable and exactly what you want that you engage in "overreach" from a false sense of confidence
... and this comes from a GM who helps players if they have the ability to bind evil things do so as safely as possible.
The point is, there are many, many possible good reasons (and results) for binding evil creatures. But it should never be taken casually by any but the most powerful, confident, and focused of good spellcasters, and even then they have to watch out for the sin of arrogance...
Why not bind a good outsider anyway? Generally they're way better than their CR suggests.
Depends on the genre of the game I'm running (not system- genre) and the intent of the binding.
Definitely never a clear-cut good thing to do, though.
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Why not bind a good outsider anyway? Generally they're way better than their CR suggests.
Is the main thing. Yeah, you could bind a demon and make him rescue a bunch of orphans, but generally speaking a good-aligned outsider would be able to do the same task just as well if not better.
Now, if it's a situation where (for whatever reason) only a bound demon can save those orphans, then that's a different matter. Making the best of a bad situation should never have repercussions on alignment (though it can certainly lead to plenty of in-character moral issues).
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it's not inherently evil to call and bind evil outsiders - at least not in an alignment-turning way.
As of Ultimate Intrigue, casting a spell with the evil descriptor (such as using planar binding on a fiend), is considered an inherently evil act.
it's not inherently evil to call and bind evil outsiders - at least not in an alignment-turning way.As of Ultimate Intrigue, casting a spell with the evil descriptor (such as using planar binding on a fiend), is considered an inherently evil act.
Yes, it is, but I'm pretty sure it's been clarified that this doesn't change alignment, which was what I was referring to with that "alignment-turning way" bit, unless UI has changed that back.
(Also, you have to cast a spell with a [good] descriptor at the same time, aiming towards that neutral ground.)
My understanding was that the general rule was clarified for PFS-stuff, but that effectively only restricts paladins (or classes with similar limitations) from doing it.
Yes, it is, but I'm pretty sure it's been clarified that this doesn't change alignment, which was what I was referring to with that "alignment-turning way" bit, unless UI has changed that back.
I would like to see them say there is are evil actions that don't change your alignment unlike all other aligned actions in the game.
My understanding was that the general rule was clarified for PFS-stuff, but that effectively only restricts paladins (or classes with similar limitations) from doing it.
I'm not talking about PFS since I have no knowledge about PFS.
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I would like to see them say there is are evil actions that don't change your alignment unlike all other aligned actions in the game.
Individual actions almost never change Alignment. You have to keep doing them regularly for that to happen. Or they have to be particularly egregious.
Where are you finding anything that says otherwise?
I always thought it was GM fiat to determine how often/how many times evil acts need be committed before knocking alignments.
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I always thought it was GM fiat to determine how often/how many times evil acts need be committed before knocking alignments.
Pretty much, yeah. But the core rulebook does say the following:
It's best to let players play their characters as they want. If a player is roleplaying in a way that you, as the GM, think doesn't fit his alignment, let him know that he's acting out of alignment and tell him why—but do so in a friendly manner. If a character wants to change his alignment, let him—in most cases, this should amount to little more than a change of personality, or in some cases, no change at all if the alignment change was more of an adjustment to more accurately summarize how a player, in your opinion, is portraying his character. In some cases, changing alignments can impact a character's abilities—see the class write-ups in Classes for details. An atonement spell may be necessary to repair damage done by alignment changes arising from involuntary sources or momentary lapses in personality.
So...that implies pretty strongly that it's probably gonna take more than a single act.
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I would say that the 'one and done' evil shift is probably reserved for when you start rolling checks to stealthily murder the king and offer his heart up as sacrifice to summon a demon lord.
You know, the sudden heel turn that seems like "this will destroy the entire kingdom, and you know it" kind of thing. The "anakin skywalker chopping up small children for his own goals" kind of thing.
Just summoning and torturing a demon is much lesser. Still adds to the scales, but I would say it would take at least a few tries- one on REALLY extended try (ie- months of torture) before it sends you fully off the deep end.
Individual actions almost never change Alignment. You have to keep doing them regularly for that to happen. Or they have to be particularly egregious.
Where are you finding anything that says otherwise?
I wasn't suggesting that a Single action could change your alignment. But casting an evil spell is an action that can change your alignment towards evil (at least as much as any other evil act could change your alignment).
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I don't think binding an evil creature is an evil by the rules. Torturing them however is another story. Torture is not listed in the rules as evil, but if Paizo had an "evil acts" book that would probably be in it.
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I wasn't suggesting that a Single action could change your alignment. But casting an evil spell is an action that can change your alignment towards evil (at least as much as any other evil act could change your alignment).
Sure is.
Of course, a Magic Circle Against Evil is a Good act, so the Alignments of the spells probably cancel out (unless you're a Paladin, anyway), leaving what you're actually doing (and intending to do) by summoning as the primary determiner of Alignment.
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I don't think binding an evil creature is an evil by the rules. Torturing them however is another story. Torture is not listed in the rules as evil, but if Paizo had an "evil acts" book that would probably be in it.
Actually it is an evil act.
Although the Heal skill is traditionally used to aid the injured, treat poison and disease, and otherwise provide comfort to the wounded and infirm, the anatomic knowledge granted by this skill allows it to be used for far more nefarious uses as well. Any character may attempt to torture a living target with physical and mental anguish; the results of such torture can be determined with a Heal check. Note that torture is an evil act, and as such may have repercussions on good characters (especially paladins, clerics, and others that must abide by the precepts of their alignment).
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I am going to say that dealing with an evil outsider is going to be an evil act. Your intentions may be honorable, but that outsider is going to do everything in its power to do what it wants whether or not that was your intention.
Save the orphans in that building. He turns them undead so that no one can tell they are dead.
Put out that burning building full of people, he crushes the building to put out the fire. While leaving everyone in it.
Get me to the top of this cliff. He puts just the person that summoned and bound him up there, alone and probably without gear so that they cannot defend themselves.
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I don't think binding an evil creature is an evil by the rules. Torturing them however is another story. Torture is not listed in the rules as evil, but if Paizo had an "evil acts" book that would probably be in it.Actually it is an evil act.
Although the Heal skill is traditionally used to aid the injured, treat poison and disease, and otherwise provide comfort to the wounded and infirm, the anatomic knowledge granted by this skill allows it to be used for far more nefarious uses as well. Any character may attempt to torture a living target with physical and mental anguish; the results of such torture can be determined with a Heal check. Note that torture is an evil act, and as such may have repercussions on good characters (especially paladins, clerics, and others that must abide by the precepts of their alignment).
That quote is from Villians: Rebirth, which is a 3rd party supplement.
PS: I agree that it is evil. My point before was that no official rules support it.
I don't think binding an evil creature is an evil by the rules. Torturing them however is another story.
It is. Since Ultimate Intrigue made casting a spell with the evil descriptor an evil act, and using planar binding on a fiend gives the spell the evil descriptor.
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I don't think binding an evil creature is an evil by the rules. Torturing them however is another story. Torture is not listed in the rules as evil, but if Paizo had an "evil acts" book that would probably be in it.Actually it is an evil act.
Although the Heal skill is traditionally used to aid the injured, treat poison and disease, and otherwise provide comfort to the wounded and infirm, the anatomic knowledge granted by this skill allows it to be used for far more nefarious uses as well. Any character may attempt to torture a living target with physical and mental anguish; the results of such torture can be determined with a Heal check. Note that torture is an evil act, and as such may have repercussions on good characters (especially paladins, clerics, and others that must abide by the precepts of their alignment).That quote is from Villians: Rebirth, which is a 3rd party supplement.
PS: I agree that it is evil. My point before was that no official rules support it.
Darn it PSRD, label your third party material!
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Darn it PSRD, label your third party material!
Well, it did put that info off in its own little beige box, and put the source name at the top of that box.
Though yes, it doesn't explicitly say 3rd party. I tend to usually find this problem when trying to find things in the bestiary. The links don't label it, but the actual stat block usually includes an obvious company logo for the 3rd party- still wastes my time opening the link. Often happens when I think "wasn't there a demon that would be useful here?"- which is usually a problem since demons often have 'demon-ese' names.
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I don't think binding an evil creature is an evil by the rules. Torturing them however is another story.It is. Since Ultimate Intrigue made casting a spell with the evil descriptor an evil act, and using planar binding on a fiend gives the spell the evil descriptor.
That is right. I remember because I thought it was dumb that binding a good creature was a good act after a discussion on the boards.
Paladin: What is that creature with wings?
Good Sorcerer: It is an angel I just captured. I will hold him here until he decides to cooperate with us.
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That is right. I remember because I thought it was dumb that binding a good creature was a good act after a discussion on the boards.
Paladin: What is that creature with wings?
Good Sorcerer: It is an angel I just captured. I will hold him here until he decides to cooperate with us.
To reiterate: The spell to summon an angel is Good. The spell to keep it captive is Evil. So the magic all cancels out alignment-wise.
It's what you do with it that really counts. And kidnapping angels and 'holding them until they cooperate' definitely sounds Evil to me.
Actually, I wonder how do outsiders that are pure alignment work?
Wouldn't an Archon never give in to torture and choose death?
Would and Imp ever actually agree to something that doesn't benefit hell?
It says unreasonable or impossible commands are never agreed to after all, so wouldn't those be unreasonable? In the process of making your demands/payment reasonable wouldn't you approach legitimately evil and good acts?
Ex: Imp does not budge until you start offering unquestionable favors, souls, information useful to hell, ect
Ex: Archon does not budge until you offer assistance in a nearby church of X, you're trying to do a legitimately good deed and need its help, ect
Note: This discussion does not apply to outsiders that are impure alignment, elemental, or lack enough intelligence to bargain.
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Outsiders aren't actually 'pure' is the thing. Archons, Demons, Devils, an all that lot with a very few exceptions start out as mortal souls. And they are every bit as capable of bending to pressure of various sorts as are mortals of the equivalent alignment...with a couple of caveats.
The first, is that they've mostly been that alignment a very long time, and people get set in their ways, and the second is that mostly they have no memories of their human lives. No memories of their imperfect strugglings as they tried to be righteous or wicked. they just remember the purity of already being righteous or wicked.
Now, all that can be overcome. Angels can fall and Demons can be redeemed, but it's much harder for external forces to compel acts that violate their alignment than it is with mortals.
All of which actually makes fiends much more tractable in regards to being forced to do things outside their sphere than celestials, when you think about it. It's very much within LE or CE to do what someone tells you because they have power over you, or save yourself by selling out your principles. So fiends can be compelled fairly readily, if one wishes to use force. And not necessarily torture, you can also just threaten to kill them.
Meanwhile, betraying Heaven is against everything an Archon believes, making them a much harder sell. Ditto other Clestials, though an Azata might fake going along with you only to turn on you at the worst moment and thwart your dastardly plot.
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That is right. I remember because I thought it was dumb that binding a good creature was a good act after a discussion on the boards.
Paladin: What is that creature with wings?
Good Sorcerer: It is an angel I just captured. I will hold him here until he decides to cooperate with us.
To reiterate: The spell to summon an angel is Good. The spell to keep it captive is Evil. So the magic all cancels out alignment-wise.
It's what you do with it that really counts. And kidnapping angels and 'holding them until they cooperate' definitely sounds Evil to me.
True. The circle of protection from <insert alignment> spell is the opposite of the alignment you are using to keep the creature trapped.
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True. The circle of protection from <insert alignment> spell is the opposite of the alignment you are using to keep the creature trapped.
Yep. It's a neat bit of rules, since it pretty definitionally makes actually using Planar Binding a moral wash absent context.
Making the Wizard's method of calling in Outsiders morally neutral in and of itself via two spells canceling each other has always struck me as sort of elegant and very in-theme for how Arcane magic should function.
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I dunno. I think messing with demons and devils at all adds its own element unique from summoning angels or even neutral things like psychopomps.
Basically, it is about the degree of the creature's response. An angel might kill you for messing with it. Demons would wreck the city, and devils would try to steal the souls of your house for generations. Because they are the types to hold vendettas.
Working with demons seems like messing with nuclear waste. At least with the higher summoning type options that actually bring it to the plane. You can try to be careful, but the chance that you mess up the summoning (and fun fact- daemons spread summoning manuals. Ones with flawed techniques) means that some toddler is probably going to get eaten or something.
So disregarding the spell descriptor staining your soul and such, I think binding demons is probably evil anyway.
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So disregarding the spell descriptor staining your soul and such, I think binding demons is probably evil anyway.
I'd generally agree with that, yes. But it's for reasons of logic ('criminal negligence' as I mentioned in my first post in this thread) rather than the spell itself.
So disregarding the spell descriptor staining your soul and such, I think binding demons is probably evil anyway.
What about binding good outsiders? Is it good to force an angel(just an example) to work for you?
I was wondering the other day if an Evil caster can summon an angel or other Good aligned outsider and for it to perform Evil acts. For summoned rather than called creatures I'd think the answer would be yes. Hey there, angel, it is time to kill some babies, burn down the village, etc.
In general I'd think that it is easier to "slip" or "fall" into Evil than it would be to accidentally become Good. If somebody is mostly an upright citizen but has committed a few rapes or murders folks would probably say that's a bad person. I'd imagine the OP's planar binder being like, "I'm a nice guy. I just torture stuff in my basement because it makes me better at my job."
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I was wondering the other day if an Evil caster can summon an angel or other Good aligned outsider and for it to perform Evil acts. For summoned rather than called creatures I'd think the answer would be yes. Hey there, angel, it is time to kill some babies, burn down the village, etc.
He could, but it would be a pretty dumb thing to do when there are plenty of Evil outsiders available who would do it much more readily and would bear much less of a grudge afterwards.
In general I'd think that it is easier to "slip" or "fall" into Evil than it would be to accidentally become Good. If somebody is mostly an upright citizen but has committed a few rapes or murders folks would probably say that's a bad person.
I assume you mean in the game, rather than in real life. (Real life people don't have character sheets with a handy box for their alignment; I'm currently reading a book about 14th century France, which describes widespread murder, rape and torture. Was everybody involved Evil? Who knows?)
In the game, as far as I am aware there is no rule support either for or against your position. Alignment change is left as a matter for the GM. If a person is arbitrarily rating my character's actions based on an incredibly contentious (and in some cases, meaningless) alignment scale, then why couldn't my neutral sorcerer fall into Good as easily as Evil?
Many fantasy role-playing adventures seem to fall into the "murder the dragon to save the princess" category, so whether they are Good or Evil depends on your point of view.
What about binding good outsiders? Is it good to force an angel(just an example) to work for you?
So disregarding the spell descriptor staining your soul and such, I think binding demons is probably evil anyway.
I am not that experienced with binding, but don't you have to pay them? That makes this more like forcing him to listen to an offer for independant contractor work.
I would say that one wizard discovery where you continually blackmail an outsider with their true name is far worse.
I am not that experienced with binding, but don't you have to pay them?What about binding good outsiders? Is it good to force an angel(just an example) to work for you?
So disregarding the spell descriptor staining your soul and such, I think binding demons is probably evil anyway.
Not always, and you don't have to pay them anything near what their services are worth. You can also just browbeat them into serving you.
If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature's Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward.
So if your Charisma is high enough (or you can lower theirs enough), you can simply say "serve me, and your reward will be serving someone awesome" and they'll say "sure," and grovel at your feat.