Cool gimmick for the low levels :p
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It is interesting how you are not automatically safe from not ruining everyone else's fun just because you stick to a few hardcover books.
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I perma-booted a kid from my tables for playing a wizard just like that. Dude was a jerk on top of bring a fun sponge, so when tables stopped making when he signed up, I had him banned.
Congrats, you won Pathfinder. With that accomplishment you don't ever have to play at my table again. Bye, Felicia.
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Ok so you get to go first, and cast your 2 colour sprays and one grease. What do you do for the rest of the 5-10 encounter adventure.
if you didn't have initiative 17, but instead had +6 say you would still go first more often than not, still have the ability to cast your 3 spells and do other useful stuff too.
Divination is highly overrated.
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I perma-booted a kid from my tables for playing a wizard just like that. Dude was a jerk on top of bring a fun sponge, so when tables stopped making when he signed up, I had him banned.
Congrats, you won Pathfinder. With that accomplishment you don't ever have to play at my table again. Bye, Felicia.
So you mean you didn't have him booted for playing a wizard just like that at all then.
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I'm especially impressed by how you think this is something new, or that ruining the table's fun requires any particlar options at all.
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So you mean you didn't have him booted for playing a wizard just like that at all then.I perma-booted a kid from my tables for playing a wizard just like that. Dude was a jerk on top of bring a fun sponge, so when tables stopped making when he signed up, I had him banned.
Congrats, you won Pathfinder. With that accomplishment you don't ever have to play at my table again. Bye, Felicia.
Having played with the wizard in question, the characters were the straw that broke the camel's back. Other offenses include, having screaming matches with his girlfriend, refusing to not engage in PvP, and constantly arguing with the GM.
I'm especially impressed by how you think this is something new, or that ruining the table's fun requires any particlar options at all.
Actually, he was attempting to raise awareness of the fact "that the real broken options in PFS are the stuff already in it" "rather than anything the staff might be considering allowing into PFS" (yes, those are direct quotes from the original poster. He said that on IRC).
I firmly believe that every feat, class, skill and item has value in the game in some way, to some person be it GM or player. However because we play a complex game these can be stacked and combined in an almost infinite number of combinations. It is the stacking and combinations that cause the problems and happens through player choice.
That said I agree with Eric that it's the way it is taken to the table that damages the fun, not the build itself. The two are generally extricably linked!
General Spoon and Eric Brittain both have very valid points to make, and do a good job of making them. You can do nasty thing things with just the older hardcover books, and maybe even just Core. However, it is often the player not the build that ruins fun.
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See I don't mind if you play some insta-win character. Frankly I only care about party victory where we win and the bad guys lose and I can count the fat gold at the end. People seem to have this thing about needing 'to shine' and needing to be 'given' the chance to do it, I'm happy with the shine on all my loot. if you can one shot them and I don't need to risk life and limb then we're all gravy in my book.
At the end of the day a swift resolution of encounters is fine. Economy of effort all the way.
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I like for everyone to be able to participate in encounters. So I agonised when I realised that my alchemist could use a true strike extract (did not have infusion discovery at the time) to make a vital bow shot with much greater chance of success than the party rogue-archer. I wasn't even carrying a bow, I relied on bombs with a backup sling for ranged attacks.
But I told my party that I had this option and they asked me to use it. And after it worked they were all happy, including the player of the rogue-archer. I still felt a bit guilty for "stepping on her toes" but everyone said my actions may have saved them all.
I suppose the lesson I take from this is, discuss all your options with the other players in advance. (and if you're an alchemist maybe learn the infusion discovery).
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How is that 'stepping on her toes'?
Having 'everyone participate' is fine as an idea, but actually it is inefficient and wasteful - why are we spending extra time and extra resources and exposing ourselves to extra risk?
I guess it comes down to how you see participation - I love working with the party and coming up with teamwork and involving them in RP, but everything that happens after initiative is about defeating the encounter as swiftly as possible - which gives just more time to josh and jape and rp at the table.
in PFS play people need to be cognisant of the need to have a diverse range of skills and abilities so that they can meaningfully contribute in a wide variety of circumstances, so even if one player has things mostly down pat, they can at the very least assist and help to improve the chance of victory.
Sometimes the best way to shine is to be the player who doesn't get in the way.
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How is that 'stepping on her toes'?
That's how I felt at the time.
Party make up, as best I can remember it:
Fighter1/Alchemist 3 (me)
Gunslinger1/Witch4
Cleric 5
Rogue 5
Occultist 4 (i think, not familiar with OA; used a sword and self-buffed)
Like you Shifty I want to make characters that are able to contribute effectively throughout their careers. My alchemist, Drokk, is a melee beast. The bombs are very much secondary. Drokk is very effective at tearing it up in melee.
The party we had was not terribly strong in combat overall. The rogue was a gnome with basic archery feats (pbs, precise shot), but no rapid shot or deadly aim; very reliant on sneak attack as rogues so often are.
I think at the outset of the mission only the rogue had a bow. Other characters had other means of attacking at range, but none doing huge damage (my bombs did 2d6+3 which was certainly the highest ranged damage output unless the rogue could manage a ranged sneak attack, which would do 1d4+2+3d6 or thereabouts).
Now I want to succeed at missions, of course, and I'm nervous in parties that I think are under-powered. Normally I would expect a level 5 archer-type to be fairly sure of hitting with a bow attack. But also I expected that this particular rogue, based on past performance, wouldn't be able to do much (or anything) against the BBEG if I took the shot instead. I was sort of wrong on that count because there were also mooks and the rogue was effective against them (melee plus flanking)
tl;dr I felt I was usurping another PCs specialism. My character was much more optimised, could do much more in and out of combat. We did succeed, and that probably was because I did what I did, and everyone had fun. So I'm not exactly arguing against you, just saying that if all the players agree on an "optimal" course of action then it's all to the good.
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Having 'everyone participate' is fine as an idea, but actually it is inefficient and wasteful - why are we spending extra time and extra resources and exposing ourselves to extra risk?
Not everyone in the "we" you speak of is there just to score points at the end; some of us enjoy the actual gameplay as well. Remember, it's not really *characters* that participate, it's players. If I as a player just sit there during combat because someone else has a "I Win Pathfinder!" build, it's not very fun for me. In a stable group, I could of course learn from the experience and be able to apply it next time, but in the revolving door of organized play that doesn't happen.
It's fine to have that optimized character - but you don't need to upstage everyone else in the surprise round every single time. "I am not left-handed!"* is a way to feel out this situation at your table, so that you can play in a style that works with and not against the other players at your table.
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One of the things I learned to do with my sorcerer was ask the party if things were alright. You're probably familiar with instances of asking your fighter buddy if he minds getting caught in your fireball. Well, I ask that about fight-enders too.
There was a case of the party opening a door to be confronted by a large skeleton. My sorcerer won initiative as he often does, so I turned to the table and asked "you guys want to fight this out?" before I took my action. On hearing them answer "NO please" I turned to the GM and said "Able waves his hand, "Begone from my sight, foul wretch!" and it needs to make a Reflex save to avoid the create pit spell he casts." Skeleton gets pot-shot from the top of the pit until destroyed.
** spoiler omitted **
I know it quite well :)
I make every character I build as grossly overpowered as possible, with the sole intent of being able to solo the entire scenario in the event that I get either a lame duck party, or that everyone has died horribly. Because it's no fun if the entire party dies horribly and has to burn prestige and gold to get their characters back.
Exactly. I optimize so other people don't have to.
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I wonder how people would react if these types of characters started showing up as NPCs in future scenarios? :)
"Auto-surprise rounds" are a thing I have encountered more than once.
along with:
"Small map syndrome" where the monsters always start within charge reach (and they get to charge inside the "Auto-surprise round"), or sometimes even just a 5' step away.
Or the combat starts with the monsters first set of attacks.
heck, once before, when I pointed out that I was running a Prescience Wizard (so she always gets an action in the "surprise round"), I've been told that the monsters get an action before the "surprise round" - thus insuring the monsters got actions before the "surprise round", and then again during the surprise round (along with my PC).
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I wonder how people would react if these types of characters started showing up as NPCs in future scenarios? :)
Some might learn, others might sees this as a confirmation that their choices were the right ones.
Of course there is a world of difference between the players taking one NPC out of commission with a color spray, of the GM forcing a player to be bored for 30+ minutes since his character is stun locked.
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I wonder how people would react if these types of characters started showing up as NPCs in future scenarios? :)Some might learn, others might sees this as a confirmation that their choices were the right ones.
Of course there is a world of difference between the players taking one NPC out of commission with a color spray, of the GM forcing a player to be bored for 30+ minutes since his character is stun locked.
In my experience (Living Greyhawk-Bandit Kingdoms; Living Arcanis) where this was a thing, it leads to continued escalation between players/authors. You inevitably reach a point where people are terrified to play outside their trusted friends, certain builds are the only acceptable ones, and it's not that fun a time for everyone involved.
Hard encounters are fine, when they are at the appropriate difficulty level by level/APL. Tier 1-5 can be challenging without being completely unforgiving, whereas Tier 7-11 generally should be challenging with less margin for error. Making every fight an optimized meatgrinder is not fun, though, and inevitably deters new players from wanting to play at all.
I wonder how people would react if these types of characters started showing up as NPCs in future scenarios? :)
Actually season 7 has boss fights that aren't too far different from the OPs. Problem is that unlike the OPs assertion its pretty dam easy rip that type of spellcaster apart if you start using all the available options. For example using the spell list that the OP provided only one works on my Alchemist.
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I wonder how people would react if these types of characters started showing up as NPCs in future scenarios? :)
I would celebrate and make the counter magic specialist I always wanted to. Right now there is no point in doing such a build.
Or maybe we could see a return to hard mode options.
What a glorious day that be.
Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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I think a lot of the problem is "save or suck" spells, at least in terms of having fun play experiences.
It's really enjoyable to defeat the BBEG with a Hail Mary hideous laughter, but it sure sucks from the GM perspective. Alternatively, using spells like icy prison against PCs make an encounter extremely dicey and potentially unejoyable for the PCs spending their time chipping through ice!
In home games,I'm have a sort of "nuclear agreement" in terms of spell use. Abuse of specific spells essentially meant they were open game from my side of the table. It led to self-control of abusive spells, and the use of such spells as last resorts. Not necessarily a PFS-related thing, but a standalone though on the merits of self control with spells.
There's a place for spells like this. But I don't think ANY party would appreciate an encounter with multiple "save or die" effects stacked against them.
Effective /= necessarily mean fun.
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I found 2 ways to make the other players hate me.
1) Sundering build: You are destroying the treasure!
2) This is for PFS: get Scent, Blind Fighting, and carry an Eversmoking Bottle. You will make everybody Blind, including you, but you'll be mostly okay due to Scent and Blind Fighting. Since the PFS players don't know each other, they don't create characters for each other, and most players don't plan effectively for contingencies like what happens when your opponent is Invisible, or what happens when the lights go out and Darkvision won't work.
that would be fine with me, as all I have to do is sing and all my friends can see thru the smoke (Flame Dancer Bard)
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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I think a lot of the problem is "save or suck" spells, at least in terms of having fun play experiences.
It's really enjoyable to defeat the BBEG with a Hail Mary hideous laughter, but it sure sucks from the GM perspective. Alternatively, using spells like icy prison against PCs make an encounter extremely dicey and potentially unejoyable for the PCs spending their time chipping through ice!
In home games,I'm have a sort of "nuclear agreement" in terms of spell use. Abuse of specific spells essentially meant they were open game from my side of the table. It led to self-control of abusive spells, and the use of such spells as last resorts. Not necessarily a PFS-related thing, but a standalone though on the merits of self control with spells.
There's a place for spells like this. But I don't think ANY party would appreciate an encounter with multiple "save or die" effects stacked against them.
Effective /= necessarily mean fun.
Sadly, this is really true. I have received complaints in person, on the messageboards, and through product reviews that it is (to only lightly paraphrase) "cheating for NPCs to use the same tricks that PCs do." As a developer, I have to look at some encounters and say, "yes, this would be very effective, but it would also KO 1-2 characters per round. Is that going to be fun for the typical group?"
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Sadly, this is really true. I have received complaints in person, on the messageboards, and through product reviews that it is (to only lightly paraphrase) "cheating for NPCs to use the same tricks that PCs do." As a developer, I have to look at some encounters and say, "yes, this would be very effective, but it would also KO 1-2 characters per round. Is that going to be fun for the typical group?"
Is there interest at all from Paizo's end for challenging material to be published? Sometimes I have ideas for high level quests (so the encounter wouldn't be in the standard scenario line) but I always end up scrapping it when I think to myself "they wouldn't want this". I know upfront that many people wouldn't enjoy such content but then there are others who would love the challenge.
I found 2 ways to make the other players hate me.
1) Sundering build: You are destroying the treasure!
2) This is for PFS: get Scent, Blind Fighting, and carry an Eversmoking Bottle. You will make everybody Blind, including you, but you'll be mostly okay due to Scent and Blind Fighting. Since the PFS players don't know each other, they don't create characters for each other, and most players don't plan effectively for contingencies like what happens when your opponent is Invisible, or what happens when the lights go out and Darkvision won't work.
Scott, your #2 is a bit unfair and argued with bad evidence. You describe a mist/smoke situation, and then chide PFS players for not being prepared for invisible enemies or darkness (I agree however, that too often we let ourselves get caught with our pants down on these issues). While the overall effect is the same, the mundane and magical remedies for these problems are very separate. As examples: Daylight won't dispel smoke, neither will see invisibility.
To my knowledge, there aren't a whole lot of ways to see through mist or smoke.
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Sadly, this is really true. I have received complaints in person, on the messageboards, and through product reviews that it is (to only lightly paraphrase) "cheating for NPCs to use the same tricks that PCs do." As a developer, I have to look at some encounters and say, "yes, this would be very effective, but it would also KO 1-2 characters per round. Is that going to be fun for the typical group?"Is there interest at all from Paizo's end for challenging material to be published? Sometimes I have ideas for high level quests (so the encounter wouldn't be in the standard scenario line) but I always end up scrapping it when I think to myself "they wouldn't want this". I know upfront that many people wouldn't enjoy such content but then there are others who would love the challenge.
There is an interest; however, I also recognize a scenario that challenges one group can absolutely crush another—often many others. The Hard Mode concept can take up some of that slack. Bonekeep also attempted to provide very challenging material to the player base with mixed results. Fact of the matter's that highly challenging material only appeals to a limited number of players, and pitching adventures that don't have broad appeal is tricky.
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There is an interest; however, I also recognize a scenario that challenges one group can absolutely crush another—often many others. The Hard Mode concept can take up some of that slack. Bonekeep also attempted to provide very challenging material to the player base with mixed results. Fact of the matter's that highly challenging material only appeals to a limited number of players, and pitching adventures that don't have broad appeal is tricky.
I'm pretty happy with some monsters I have created recently that took some inspiration from recent threads. Maybe I'll give this one a shot and see what happens then. Thanks.
There is an interest; however, I also recognize a scenario that challenges one group can absolutely crush another—often many others. The Hard Mode concept can take up some of that slack. Bonekeep also attempted to provide very challenging material to the player base with mixed results. Fact of the matter's that highly challenging material only appeals to a limited number of players, and pitching adventures that don't have broad appeal is tricky.Sadly, this is really true. I have received complaints in person, on the messageboards, and through product reviews that it is (to only lightly paraphrase) "cheating for NPCs to use the same tricks that PCs do." As a developer, I have to look at some encounters and say, "yes, this would be very effective, but it would also KO 1-2 characters per round. Is that going to be fun for the typical group?"Is there interest at all from Paizo's end for challenging material to be published? Sometimes I have ideas for high level quests (so the encounter wouldn't be in the standard scenario line) but I always end up scrapping it when I think to myself "they wouldn't want this". I know upfront that many people wouldn't enjoy such content but then there are others who would love the challenge.
Count me amongst those who think optional hard modes are a good thing. One thing that may be appreciated is a small bonus boon for completion in hard mode. Nothing spectacular, it does not even need to have mechanical effects. Just a little something for the extra difficulty. Something like "Hero of the Vale: Your exploits went beyond those of of common tales. Your name is known throughout ______".