...but isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing again and again but expecting a different result?It was Einstein's definition - not any dictionary's. But if they rebuild the characters to be superior, they aren't doing the same thing anymore anyway. (Plus there is randomness involved in RPGs which make any given roll not really the same thing anyway.)
The current composition is clearly dysfunctional and the characters have already been tweaked more than once, aside from the oracle who refuses to change in any way. Time to stop banging your head against the wall and try a totally new approach, I'd say.
The feat's not worthless. The oracle using it is.
But, the feat is pretty worthless to a Life Oracle. It doesn't work on your channel and it doesn't work on cures you cast on yourself. Life Link means you will be casting far more heals on yourself than on others. And any serious healer past level 3-4 should have Shield Other on 1-2 teammates during any dangerous situation, which is just more heals that you will be giving to yourself and not gaining any benefit from this feat.
The feat may be useful to some other healer that's more based on healing others with spells, but I really don't know a build that does that kind of healing well enough to bother.
Summoning can be good damage and damage prevention, but if you can't cast it as a standard action, then it usually isn't up in time to make enough of a difference.
Once thing to note-if the Oracle wears a shield, they are able to flank as the shield is considered a weapon due to the option of shield bashing.
Once thing to note-if the Oracle wears a shield, they are able to flank as the shield is considered a weapon due to the option of shield bashing.
I don't think anyone here is arguing against this being the correct ruling. But the DM in question has ruled otherwise.
Maybe consider going Summoner with your PC, instead?
You get to make an eidolon, so make it a combat monster to support the Ninja and Slayer, something that can take a hit. Then when it goes away from damage, you can spam your SLA Summon Monsters that are always level appropriate and last 1 minute per level, and are only a Standard action to use.
I'm going Wizard Summoner. I was a crafter mostly, with CC and wanted to use Staff Life wand. Optimizing towards Summons:
SF Conjuration, Aug Summon, Superior Summon, and checking if Evolved Summons or the one that adds templates are worth.
It may be tempting to take his summoning role and make it better - do not do it. If he is restricted to a pure healer, he will never grow as a player.
He chose to be a pure healer. I kinda hinted that in combat heal are useless, except Heal, but still went that way.
To me a 20 CHA oracle healer is waste of space/stats, but I will not tell him how to play his toon.I'm going Summon, and my summons will probably be better, I have a bit more system mastery and the feats. We lack damage, flanks and HP to survive. I don't see other ways to survive.
What spells does the Oracle cast in a standard (for your group) encounter?.
He uses Channel Energy, and no, DM ruled it doesn't count for feat.
Standard Combat? I delay until someone is damage is the most basic action.
So far he has only used SM1 and CLW (oh, and stabilize). Then Channel Energy. That's it.
Also DM ruled that if he does damage after achieving it, it might be possible to lose it.
You have a great point. AP is run like it is. So far I don't think the GM has change anything. NPCs are played as they are written.
No house rules, except the Shield doesn't count to threaten adj squares.The oracle player is IMO the main reason this group is having this kind of problem. I never got an answer when I asked if he was a new player but if he is then someone should tell him he is literally building and playing his character to fail. In combat healing in pathfinder is next to worthless. That healing achievement feat is literally worthless. Refusing to take part in any combat or do anything other than heal is practically worthless.
I'm in disbelief the GM is letting this group wipe and not say something to the oracle player.
He's not new, but he just play whatever, he doesn't optimize much, or maybe he sees a feat (this one he's taken) and think it's great. I know it's horrible, just as much as taking a feat that gives +1 shield ac.
GM hasn't said a word regarding the oracle only healing.I don't mind if he's healing only, but at least buffs, bless, something. Nope, just healing and summons (which at least are better than heals).
I'm a little confused as to why you guys keep going back to the same characters after you have TPK'ed. At least, that's what I think you're doing. It's possible I've misunderstood...but isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing again and again but expecting a different result?
TPKed, GM rezzed us through NPCs. We got bumped to 20 pt buy from 15 and allowed to change anything on the class.
I went from Crafter, Wand Wielder (at level 11) to Summoner Specialist.Ninja went from 10 CON to 14-16
Slayer > no idea, I think he's still is TWF+Bash
Oracle > 20 CHA, I think that's about it
We do have some bad decisions, the Ninja made some bad mistakes. I probably did some mistakes too, not saying I'm a perfect player.
There are some issues while discussing strategies. We take too much time, arrive at nothing, and go like in barbarians.The Oracle is using Channel because the enemy is NOT dying. He tries to save spells after combat so he can heal and add points to his feat. We almost wiped at Glassworks on the lower level... we barely live thanks to a crit from slayer while on the floor with his axe.
Oracle's character is around healing. I tried telling him that Shield of Faith/Prot from Evil is a great choice, what else can I do? I even told him to buy a wand of it, at least he can buff without using his spells.
I'm trying to find ways to live and keep the status quo. I know is not the best choice, but it might be feasible and no one will notice some things aren't working properly.
Oracle doesn't think there's something wrong with his toon, and no one told him otherwise.
I'm a player, I can't go around saying "yo, that build sucks" or "yo, in combat healing is the worst possible action you could take, not considering dropping prone" I'm hinting maybe buffing is better, but ultimately it's his choice.
I can always grab some buffs, or even UMD and start using divine spells, I don't know
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I play in a bigger group than this so it hurts less but we also have a couple of players who refuse to take advice or be terribly helpful in combat situations. Often, they can be found picking a lock or carrying a wounded NPC to safety, that sort of thing, while the rest of us are getting our asses handed to us. I think they think they're useful and helpful...but they're really not.
At any rate, others have mentioned this already so I'm just reitierating: your GM needs to accommodate your party if everyone knows not much is ever going to change. The first thing he could do is reverse his (silly) ruling regarding threatening with shields. That would go quite far in making the oracle less awful and be such a help for the ninja.
It's not like you guys are blowing the AP out of the water and the GM needs to put the fetters on to ensure you are challenged. Quite the opposite in fact; he really needs to be more lenient and generous if the oracle is going to stop being a waste of space and you guys are going to have some success.
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Actually you can tell him that in combat healing is worthless. You know that is just how this game works. I don't know if that guy is thinking this plays like a MMORPG but it does not. He could buff and summon with his oracle and heal out of combat and be great at those things.
You are not doing him any favors as someone else suggested by letting him think straight healing is the only thing he can do with an oracle.
Can you hire henchmen? Like some NPC warriors of level 2 or 3?
The extra bodies will help in combat, and give the oracle more chances to heal, so he can finish that feat sooner.
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You're gonna need to remove the Oracle. Just have your PC stand up and say he doesn't feel the oracle is pulling his weight, that it's threatening the lives of you and your fellow party members, and that until the oracle gives up his vow of combat celibacy you're not heading back to the dungeon. You're an adventuring party, it's like a business. Get a majority vote and fire him.
Just insist your character feels the Oracle is the biggest threat to the lives of the party members.
Optionally, just say that you've been inspired by the Oracle and you too will be joining him in his "do no harm" vow and ask the others to join you in it.
If the DM won't work with the Oracles desire to weaken the party, then you shouldn't either.
Dump the life oracle and have him take an oracle of battle. Then he can heal and kill all day. Drop the goblin patrols and the evil NPCs via skirmishing, since they almost all have far worse stealth then you do, especially with a slayer and a ninja.
Also, can the Life Oracle use his downtime to heal the peasants and town guards?
Maybe the PCs should hold a festival dedicated to *God of Athletics and/or Competition* and have the common folk run an obstacle course, break legs, and then use cure spells up the wazoo to heal everyone.
Actually you can tell him that in combat healing is worthless. You know that is just how this game works. I don't know if that guy is thinking this plays like a MMORPG but it does not. He could buff and summon with his oracle and heal out of combat and be great at those things.
You are not doing him any favors as someone else suggested by letting him think straight healing is the only thing he can do with an oracle.
You're right, but so far we can blame our lack of strategy, decision-making, etc. It's not really evident that the oracle is the main problem. Maybe it's just another thing at which we are bad.
Can you hire henchmen? Like some NPC warriors of level 2 or 3?
The extra bodies will help in combat, and give the oracle more chances to heal, so he can finish that feat sooner.
Probably yes, it will take either share of Gold/XP. Both cases kinda screw us.
Also, can the Life Oracle use his downtime to heal the peasants and town guards?
Maybe the PCs should hold a festival dedicated to *God of Athletics and/or Competition* and have the common folk run an obstacle course, break legs, and then use cure spells up the wazoo to heal everyone.
Knowing our DM, probably not. Maybe he gets some points, but it wouldn't be that much.
Also we barely had any downtime, at least during these 4 levels. And it has been only a week ingame timeYou're gonna need to remove the Oracle. Just have your PC stand up and say he doesn't feel the oracle is pulling his weight, that it's threatening the lives of you and your fellow party members, and that until the oracle gives up his vow of combat celibacy you're not heading back to the dungeon. You're an adventuring party, it's like a business. Get a majority vote and fire him.
Just insist your character feels the Oracle is the biggest threat to the lives of the party members.
Optionally, just say that you've been inspired by the Oracle and you too will be joining him in his "do no harm" vow and ask the others to join you in it.
If the DM won't work with the Oracles desire to weaken the party, then you shouldn't either.
This is not entirely bad idea. The oracle does fight, he just summons.
I'm mostly annoyed because being a Divine Caster is more than healing.Where is Bless, Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil?
Shield of faith in my mind is 10 times better than CLW, they're both worth the same, and SoF will probably heal more on 10 rounds combat.
I did the mistake of accepting his character because I knew his PC, but my PC shouldn't be accepting it.
All I see is a guy in Breastplate with a Heavy Shield never in the frontlines or wielding a weapon.
There are been several cases where I, as the Wizard, had to flank for my Slayer/Rogue.
I'm really hoping now that he's level 4 and we finished TTop, that he will buy tons of scrolls/wands, and start buffing us more during encounters.
I mean, Bless always works, it's a +1.
There are also some friendly critiques, where he says I don't do much while he's healing us all. Like it's not his fault we ain't killing the bad guys.
Just to make an example of our issues:
We got our Slayer caught in the boss trap (the double statues and a 10 ft pit) and it was me, the wizard with 24 HP who had to activate the trap to save the Slayer that was trapped because the Oracle refused, because he was scared of dying. This happen all the time. We had ideas and usually the Oracle brings them down but doesn't help with new ones.
This whole trap discussion, took around 20 min. The oracle was refusing to activate the trap, and basically arguing to leave the Slayer for dead.
I got frustrated and annoyed, buffed myself with Shield + Mage Armor and did all the job.
At the time I had 24 HP at most (14 CON + 1 FB and average of 4-5 on rolls). I went in, got caught in the trap, and saved the Slayer.
Also, another nice story was when the Oracle during combat put his finger inside the Waters of Lamashtu while fighting the Quasit Familiar. Basically during whole combat he tried to hit us and did nothing.
He's a guy I know for like 8 years and we played a lot. He's a cool guy, and I don't feel being rude, but it's taking part of the enjoyment from tabletop, because I don't enjoy discussing a strategy for 30 min and having no strategy at all, or almost dying every single time, or even... a trap.
I tried sending an email to discuss strategy or what our problems are, or why we are always almost dying, but it didn't catch up
Will going an Arcane Melee class a good idea?
Or a Gish? Maybe I could go some sort of Archer (URogue) and somehow get access to Wizard list, so if we need something just use wands/scrolls?
Or just roll a USummoner?
Arcane Archer? Ranger/slayer/fighter/cavalier/paladin/bloodrager/Full-BAB-of-your-choice with one level of arcanist/sorcerer/wizard/bard?
And now that you're 4th, the oracle can summon flankers for the ninja and slayer, right?
Have you heard of the murderous command oracle spell? It takes one enemy and makes it attack a different enemy. It's 1st level. Would your oracle consider new spells?
Is the oracle having fun?
The feat's not worthless. The oracle using it is.
First, use some common sense here. 1000 damage healed? Your group s like level 3-4 right? So in a 4 man group you guys have a total of about 120hp at most?
This guy is not getting that feat filled anytime soon. He needs to be patient.
What Tark said here. The life oracle in our Kingmaker campaign took this feat and was able to get good use out of it. The big difference though is that he didn't take it until level 7. At level 7 he had enough spells and spell slots to be useful in combat without doing damage. He also did some math and determined that due to the smaller hit point pools to heal at low levels he wasn't really delaying the completion much by waiting until 7th level - something like 2 levels. Furthermore at low levels divine casters are often counted to be a not-insignificant presence in melee combat, since they have medium BAB, medium armor, and ok hit points. That your oracle took the feat at level 1 is a big reason why he's useless in combat.
What is the name of this feat, and which book is it in?
Mystical Healer is a 3rd party feat, but is great for healers, scales with level, and is usable right away. Is there any way your GM would allow it AND your oracle would consider re-training to this alternative and arguably more potent boost to healing?
Or is the oracle's desire to complete Healer's Touch just a personal challenge he wishes to overcome?
That slayer can be the frontliner, but he might want to hold off on two weapon fighting until later on. Let me know the level he can rebuild at and starting loot, and I will see what I can do. The rest of you will have to pick up the oracle's slack.
I will also add that having builds that support each other so you have good party synergy will greatly improve your chances of success.
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There are some issues while discussing strategies. We take too much time, arrive at nothing, and go like in barbarians.
THIS, right here, is your main problem.
Though sure, your oracle player could be helping a bit more....I've found that nearly anything can work.
It's just a question of HOW.
You don't have to get rid of anybody. Or change them radically. Instead look at the characters your using. What are they good at? Try & play to those strengths. Going in like barbarians isn't working because you're not barbarians. Or anything close to barbarians.
What's a Ninja good at? What's your parties Ninja good at?
What's a Slayer good at? What's your parties Slayer good at?
What's the Oracle good at? (I'm talking about the one you've got, not the one everyone else here wishes you had.)
What's your character good at?
Are there general things that you could be doing that'll help?
*Like using mundane equipment - tanglefoot bags, 10' poles, flaming oil, etc.
*Using the environment? (We once faced a lair of tree dwelling goblins we couldn't crack. Our solution? We started a forest fire....)
*Sometimes the answer is to spend some GP & simply hire some extra help.
*buy a couple of trained attack dogs
Murderous Command is an excellent firts pick. I'm using this spell wuith a 5° level mesmerist (focused on enchantement spells and, like your Oracle, she don't harm directly) and it is very useful: just target the enemy's boss and he probably kill one of his minions with a lot of advantage in Action Economy. The boss don't act and the numebr of enemys is reduced by one. Or you can target the one who is grappling your friends and so you remove the bad status with some fun damage in additition.
He wanted that achievement, don't think it will change it. Shield Other sounds good, I even told him about that, but it will delay his feat.
Here's the problem with that viewpoint: the feat is useless when your PC dies before it's activated.
If I invented a wizard feat, and made it "survive five levels without casting any spells and you become immortal", it would be a bad feat because they wizard is going to get killed before it comes online.
Yes, actions other than healing slow the achievement progress. Other actions also keep him (and the party) alive.
You've got a double-whammy here because he's deliberately sacrificing the party's physical well-being for his own purposes. He WANTS everyone to take damage so he can heal it. That's... twisted.
I personally think the player needs to ease up on the focus on this feat and just let it happen naturally.
Of course, the theoretical immortal feat at least offers something good as a payoff. The healing achievement gives you a bonus that you will almost never use, if you are playing the life oracle in the most optimal manner. That feat would be a low priority for a life oracle even if you didn't have to meet the achievement to get the benefit. Having to actually meet the achievement just makes it a very bad choice.
Those who may actually significantly benefit from the feat:
White mage arcanist.
Summoner, for his Eidolon
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About TPKs: are some players or your GM pushy about raiding dungeons as fast as possible? sometimes it's better to chill and observe first before drawing steel... a common mistake is to kill everything in sight, which ends up preventing the party to some unusual or monstrous NPCs that had been put there for a reason; it also depletes your resources faster (i.e. a diplomacy end to an encounter can be the cheapest way to go).
We are on the last book of RotR and have had three TPKs....the last was five days ago. Keep at it as it gets epic soon. May I suggest an Inquisitor or Warpriest? They are decent on the front as fast healing or swift action self-buffs will save your butts
you need channel energy to deal with haunts so no using a witch or shaman instead.
Not quite true.
Channel energy is the easiest way to do it, but any positive energy will do it.
That wand of CLW you have? Yup, just need to touch the area where it triggers. Lay on hands, same deal. If you read Bless Water, holy water also works.
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you need channel energy to deal with haunts so no using a witch or shaman instead.Not quite true.
Channel energy is the easiest way to do it, but any positive energy will do it.
That wand of CLW you have? Yup, just need to touch the area where it triggers. Lay on hands, same deal. If you read Bless Water, holy water also works.
There is only a small handful of haunts in this AP unlike Carrion Crown. Only like 1 "can be" really deadly in this campaign and if they make their save then they are fine.
Channel energy hardly handles the haunts and a good portion of them you want to happen so you can get more of a story from them. Some are just HP damage.
Also a Haunt Siphon can be afforded by the group.
But my DM did not play it like a typical haunt...each haunt just happened to the chosen target and you had no real warning...unlike the way they played it in CC. But it is what is supposed to wear down your resources and such because it is a dungeon. But since the Haunts are so story driven our DM did not want us to miss out on the story.
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Quick thoughts.
Oracle: He does seem to be causing an issue but again this sounds like an issue of his playstyle and goals and a bit of the GM. The feat he has is here so you guys can look it over. Realize this feat was written BEFORE the Oracle and even Channel Energy were things and likely would include them under their healing umbrella had they been around. The GM might want to extend it's powers to include his other abilities like life link and channel. That said cure spells are a poor strategy in a fight save in the most dire of circumstances as the damage you are taking is likely significantly higher than what you get to heal. This is exacerbated at high levels as the disparity grows exponentially which I assume you all have witnessed. If you can get the GM to extend the overage of his feat it might make it easier to convince him to throw some of those spell slots at some other helpful spells like shield of faith, entropic shield, and summon monster spells. That said he also might want to look at picking up augmented summoning and extended spell if he doesn't have them already. Remember, the summons attacking and damaging is not considered him, and don't reduce his progress on the achievement track.
Group dynamics: K considering your team comp you might want to look into more guerrilla warfare like strategies. Many of you have sneak attack and your wizard has access to a ton of field control and other abilities. Watch bases and learn movements, use stealth to completely avoid encounters (along with magic), and ambush, assault, and retreat from fights. Bleeding sneak is your friend in this instance, hit targets hard in that first round and use the wizard to generate field control to cover your retreat. Remember you can charge in surprise round, enemies are denied their Dex, and those that are aware still don't get said Dex until they get to act. This means that both of you have potentially 2 chances to drop sneak attacks on an enemy before they get to act, bleed em and bolt. Beyond that play dirty. Drop create pits on enemies and throw fuse grenades in the hole, steal maneuver spell books and spell components pouches off enemies and burn em. That enemy wizard won't be able to do s%#~ if his books tinder and his spell slots won't regenerate.
Raids on sleeping targets are really helpful as you have a lot of Stealthers in their and you can coup people in their sleep, remember the damage doesn't need to kill them, it just needs to do enough to make that fort save a nat 20 to succeed so hit hard. Realize you can also ready and both drop one together, making the target have to roll 2 twice potentially or die from the second guys coup. Realize a man you stab in the brain in his sleep also is not likely to make much noise. This works even on large targets like giants. He may be 10 feet tall but his wrists still have arteries and that longspear will reach his heart. Realize you also can coup at reach with a reach weapon and there is no attack roll so bring something with a nasty crit and/or some reach to improve your chance at winning.
If all else fails if the building is flammable light it up. Potentially less treasure but less enemies too and most weapons and armor will survive the burn (especially if they are magic). Also hire goons, unskilled labor is pretty cheap and if you need a dude to blow out a wall or in the worst case scenario a wall of men to draw the enemies to the opposite side of the building you'll probably spend less than you would on a potion. 20 commoners with heavy crossbows hired to just shoot at the walls and bolt will cost you like 6 gp for the day. They can hang back at maximum range from the fort (1200 ft for a heavy crossbow) and just fire down range at guys on the wall. They'll only really hit on a 19-20 or so but they are an army by most medieval standards and someone is likely to come out and "deal" with them. Tell em to bolt when that happens and you should have at least a 30 seconds of distraction to get in just from the travel time alone to get out to them if they are closing at range.
some quick ideas let me know if those help.
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If I invented a wizard feat, and made it "survive five levels without casting any spells and you become immortal", it would be a bad feat because they wizard is going to get killed before it comes online.
Isn't the situation here even worse? If I understand the OP, the GM has ruled future damage after the feat achievement is earned can undo the achievement. So your hypothetical wizard feat would be "cast no spells, ever."
"Cast no damage spells", but yeah. Might as well have just said "this feat does not exist in my version of Golarion". Except then the Oracle wouldn't be wasting time with it. What does that say about this GM?
There are some issues while discussing strategies. We take too much time, arrive at nothing, and go like in barbarians.
What's a Ninja good at? What's your parties Ninja good at?
What's a Slayer good at? What's your parties Slayer good at?
What's the Oracle good at? (I'm talking about the one you've got, not the one everyone else here wishes you had.)
What's your character good at?Are there general things that you could be doing that'll help?
*Like using mundane equipment - tanglefoot bags, 10' poles, flaming oil, etc.
*Using the environment? (We once faced a lair of tree dwelling goblins we couldn't crack. Our solution? We started a forest fire....)
*Sometimes the answer is to spend some GP & simply hire some extra help.
*buy a couple of trained attack dog
Ninja > Scouts, disarm traps, noticed them. He does it, but sometimes during combat instead of killing the blinded boss, he chooses to hit a goblin for 3 turns doing 1d6 damage > took him 3 turns to kill it. Or he doesn't look for the flank with the Slayer
Slayer > Tanking? Doing damage without flanks? He's at 1d8+4 for Longsowrd and 1d4+2 for Shield, without Studied Target+Sneak AttackOracle > he can heal, great diplomacy, Summon
Me > Glitterdust, Grease, Color Spray. I do sometimes use Familiar to scout a little
Consumables? It would be too much if someone buys a Healing potion. I bought a wand of Vanish, not super effective, but I can position freely, or escape.
No one has Alchemist Fire (I used to have 2, got used), or Smoke Sticks, or Caltrops.
Afaik, I'm the only one using scrolls.
I'm having a hard time identifying the issue. So far I can't do damage. At level 4 I got access to Flaming Sphere, which will eat up my Move Action to do some damage.
I do have Create Pit, wasn't allowed to use it yet due to terrain circumstances.
Last fight again boss, we only lived because I greased Boss' Weapon and the Ninja took it away, otherwise it was at least 2 death.
If Ninja or Slayer drop, our damage is gone. Only 50% of the party is doing damage.
Now I can summon due to changing builds, and I think I'll just go Invisible and Summon after dropping 1-2 CCs spells.
DM kinda ruled that Achievement Feat can go away, I'm not sure. Anyway Oracle could potentially do damage only with Spells, his STR/DEX don't allow it.
"Cast no damage spells", but yeah. Might as well have just said "this feat does not exist in my version of Golarion". Except then the Oracle wouldn't be wasting time with it. What does that say about this GM?
I'm not sure about the ruling, don't remember, It could go either way, but I think it was 70/30 that damage will make you lose the achievement
"Cast no damage spells", but yeah. Might as well have just said "this feat does not exist in my version of Golarion". Except then the Oracle wouldn't be wasting time with it. What does that say about this GM?I'm not sure about the ruling, don't remember, It could go either way, but I think it was 70/30 that damage will make you lose the achievement
You should really point this oracle player and your DM to this thread. Your DM is completely wrong about shields not threatening and that you can lose an achievement feat after reaching the requirements for one.
There are some issues while discussing strategies. We take too much time, arrive at nothing, and go like in barbarians.
What's a Ninja good at? What's your parties Ninja good at?
What's a Slayer good at? What's your parties Slayer good at?
What's the Oracle good at? (I'm talking about the one you've got, not the one everyone else here wishes you had.)
What's your character good at?Are there general things that you could be doing that'll help?
*Like using mundane equipment - tanglefoot bags, 10' poles, flaming oil, etc.
*Using the environment? (We once faced a lair of tree dwelling goblins we couldn't crack. Our solution? We started a forest fire....)
*Sometimes the answer is to spend some GP & simply hire some extra help.
*buy a couple of trained attack dogNinja > Scouts, disarm traps, noticed them. He does it, but sometimes during combat instead of killing the blinded boss, he chooses to hit a goblin for 3 turns doing 1d6 damage > took him 3 turns to kill it. Or he doesn't look for the flank with the SlayerUnless disarming that trap is of vital importance RIGHT THEN, then your ninja is playing as poorly as your oracle. There's a time for fiddling with traps & stuff, & there's a time for stabbing the enemy. Preferably stabbing them from a flanking position.
Or hell, just throw the enemy into the trap.... You'll find out what the trap does AND deal with a target!If you see the ninja farting around solo with a victim? Get one of your asses over there & help him flank it. Even if that doesn't seem like the optimal move at the moment. His damage will improve dramatically thanks to his sneak attack. Then you can both go flank the next target.
He can also spend some Ki points & get another attack.Thinking of ninja tricks.... What tricks does he have? I'd highly recommend smoke bombs, choking smoke bombs & poison bombs.
And tanglefoot bags. And poisoned arrows/weapons.
You open a fight with a volley of this stuff - something from each of you, reduce/cripple the enemies, and THEN move into flank attack them. Concentrating on targets that saved.Poison: If you can, use it. It's a class feature for the ninja, & the slayer can get it as well. There's some nasty stuff on the poison charts.
Slayer > Tanking? Doing damage without flanks? He's at 1d8+4 for Longsowrd and 1d4+2 for Shield, without Studied Target+Sneak AttackThere shouldn't be question marks after tanking & dealing damage. He's either good at it or he's not.
What's his AC? Whatever it is, make it as high as possible. And somebody give him flanking so that his studied target & sneak attack come into play asap.And like the ninja, he should consider using poison.
Oracle > he can heal, great diplomacy, SummonHe should start a fight by chucking a tanglefoot bag at the biggest, baddest thing he sees. He only has to hit touch ACs. THEN summon, then heal if needed.
He should also carry a weapon - he doesn't have to USE it, just hold it in a vaguely threatening manner as he helps someone flank.Me > Glitterdust, Grease, Color Spray. I do sometimes use Familiar to scout a littleRecon is your friend. Do more of it. Try & fight on your parties terms, not the enemies.
(I have a divination wizard in my Sunday game. I can just imagine her players toes curling at the thought of a party walking around virtually blind....)And if the others don't think to buy those mundane consumables? Then do it yourself. It IS in your own best interest.
Consumables? It would be too much if someone buys a Healing potion. I bought a wand of Vanish, not super effective, but I can position freely, or escape.
No one has Alchemist Fire (I used to have 2, got used), or Smoke Sticks, or Caltrops.
Afaik, I'm the only one using scrolls.See above.
Ninja > Scouts, disarm traps, noticed them. He does it, but sometimes during combat instead of killing the blinded boss, he chooses to hit a goblin for 3 turns doing 1d6 damage > took him 3 turns to kill it. Or he doesn't look for the flank with the Slayer
- Ok, if the Ninja isn't trying to use the advantages of his class and of what his party do maybe there is a problem. As widard you do your job and you debuff and control the enemy, your teamates should do their job and take advantage of your spells! He has Sneak Attak, for what reason in the universe he does not use it when he can? Maybe he would feels better with another class, one less dependant of battlefiled positionament for damage.
Also the concept of priority should be clearer : if you do not exploit the advantage to quickly eliminate the boss you're giving them a chance to do more damage later.
Slayer > Tanking? Doing damage without flanks? He's at 1d8+4 for Longsowrd and 1d4+2 for Shield, without Studied Target+Sneak Attack
- See above. Studied target and sneak attack are your best weapons. You want use your weapons. Why not?
Oracle > he can heal, great diplomacy, Summon
Me > Glitterdust, Grease, Color Spray. I do sometimes use Familiar to scout a little
Consumables? It would be too much if someone buys a Healing potion. I bought a wand of Vanish, not super effective, but I can position freely, or escape.
No one has Alchemist Fire (I used to have 2, got used), or Smoke Sticks, or Caltrops.
Afaik, I'm the only one using scrolls.
- this can work : alchemical items are very useful and can be easily found . A good investment could also be a wand Ray of Enfeeblement , to lessen the chance to hit and to damage of the biggest enemies.
DM kinda ruled that Achievement Feat can go away, I'm not sure. Anyway Oracle could potentially do damage only with Spells, his STR/DEX don't allow it.
- Is perfectly possible but these levels to do this it is necessary a minumun of inventive and strategic thinking . One suggestion would make him Raise wisdom ( Scroll of Wisdom owl ? ) And let him learn the Command spell. With the command " knocked down " for example from +4 to shoot simultaneously to hit your allies and if he gets up causes attack of opportunity, which means attacks and damage free . Alternatively . Or similarly positioning itself in a certain way and giving the order " approached " the result is that he cause attack of opportunities by EVERY ally, including any evocations ... 3-4 + free attacks. Interesting is not it? and by fully respecting the requirements under the feet.
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Ninja > Scouts, disarm traps, noticed them. He does it, but sometimes during combat instead of killing the blinded boss, he chooses to hit a goblin for 3 turns doing 1d6 damage > took him 3 turns to kill it. Or he doesn't look for the flank with the Slayer
Slayer > Tanking? Doing damage without flanks? He's at 1d8+4 for Longsowrd and 1d4+2 for Shield, without Studied Target+Sneak Attack
Oracle > he can heal, great diplomacy, Summon
Me > Glitterdust, Grease, Color Spray. I do sometimes use Familiar to scout a littleConsumables? It would be too much if someone buys a Healing potion. I bought a wand of Vanish, not super effective, but I can position freely, or escape.
No one has Alchemist Fire (I used to have 2, got used), or Smoke Sticks, or Caltrops.
Afaik, I'm the only one using scrolls.I'm having a hard time identifying the issue. So far I can't do damage. At level 4 I got access to Flaming Sphere, which will eat up my Move Action to do some damage.
I do have Create Pit, wasn't allowed to use it yet due to terrain circumstances.
Last fight again boss, we only lived because I greased Boss' Weapon and the Ninja took it away, otherwise it was at least 2 death.
...
Part of the problem is the GM and his bad rulings.
With that aside the slayer and ninja need to work together to take down single opponents faster since the oracle is not doing much. Even if the oracle was playing better them not flanking and going after separate opponents is just poor tactics.
Yikes, while the Oracle is certainly causing issues, it seems pretty clear that the party as a whole is failing. There is absolutely no reason that the slayer and ninja shouldn't be working together a majority of the time. Sure, there will be occasions when they just can't get in the proper positions for whatever reason, or when one of them needs to go bail out the wizard or oracle, but if they are the primary damage dealers, they should be working together to maximize damage!
The ninja lives on sneak attack, why is he not jumping at every opportunity to take advantage of it? Heck, even if you have an enemy that is immune to sneak attack, the ninja and slayer will STILL do more damage by flanking than by not flanking. Why? Because they will hit more often! Hitting is a pretty key element in the damage dealing process for melee classes.
More to the point though, we go back to the general principle that the best method of mitigating damage in combat is to deal damage (i.e. dead men deal no damage). The easiest way to get an enemy dead is to gang up him. Think of it this way, if your group goes up against say, 4 enemies, each of which requires two hits to kill, then you are going to be taking twice as long to kill each baddie if everyone targets a different guy. Meanwhile, while this is going on, those enemies are still just as effective at half hit points as they are at full. So you'll still be taking 4 attacks per round. Kill one before it gets to act though and now you are already down to 3 attacks. Etc., etc.
The bottom line is, your party is more effective when it works as a whole than the sum of its parts would indicate. Let me give you an example from my recent game (granted we are 12th level so there's a bit of a difference here, but you'll get the idea). Party is attacked by two dragons (and managed to get surprised to boot as they were burrowing in sand). We survive the initial attacks and then get to act. Wizard casts Chains of Light on one dragon -- rendering it helpless. Paladin then uses two Smite Evils to activate Aura of Justice (I think that's what its called) to give his smite bonuses to my monk and the fighter (monk was already in melee range of helpless dragon). On monk's turn he coup-de-grace's with a x4 Polearm, with Smite bonuses. On first hit against dragon. Now there's just one dragon. GM practically started crying as her beautifully planned attack just went down the commode.
Here's the best thing about this issue though. The wizard doesn't even have to break character to give this advice to the rest of the party. The wizard is obviously very intelligent (kind of a job requirement after all). Doing this will even allow the Oracle to focus on healing and not hurt the party nearly as bad as he has been. The problem here really seems as though you have a party of 4, but from the OPs description, only one member of the party really sees himself as part of a party. The others are playing a solo game where there just so happens to be other players nearby.
I apologize for replying so late, I've been busy with work.
Disclaimer on DM: he's a great guy and I like him as DM, don't think it's all DM's fault.. Afaik he play by the rules (I could probably discuss more about the Shield Threat thing, but it's not huge deal, and it's not even my toon tbh). He plays by the book, so probably won't fudge a roll/save, and usually play NPCs like they should according to the book. He's very good at strategy, so NPCs won't make stupid decisions just because, unless there's a reason described on the AP.
I do admit that nothing has been said about the usefulness of in-combat healing, so I'm trying to find new things for the Oracle to do, thanks to your help!
Ninja so far as Vanishing trick only. He's not using the Ninja at its fullest, for example forgetting 1 extra attack for 1 ki when full attack.
I always try to help the Ninja, but if the boss is stunned and the Ninja doesn't get him, not much I can do. When there are no CCed enemies I try to flank, but I'm the Wizard, you know, but I try to do it.
Slayer can tank some hits, and does pretty good damage when hitting. Not a Barbarian's damage of course.
I think his AC is around 21. Breasplate+Shield+ 1 Ring of Prot and probably 12/14 DEX. I think he also took a feat for +1 Shield AC.
Big issue so far is that BOTH melees are TWF, and when the dice matters so much, accepting a -2 to attacks kinda suck. But you can also luck out on the dice. I'd much rather have a 2H guy, the oracle is only healing.
I will recommend Oracle to buy Scrolls of Bless. He's going to take Hold Person too, so that's gonna come in handy.
Will suggest to the Oracle Tanglefoot bags, problem is I need to go with the item they need to buy, otherwise they won't look at them on their own to buy something.
I've seen rarely the Oracle flank, I will tell him so. He could potentially carry 10 daggers, flank, drop it, cast spell, get another one. This way he'll have enough Actions to do so, and will be more useful in combat.
I'm gonna enforce the Combat Strategy for Ninja/Slayer duo. I usually act first so I can drop some Grease/Glitter/Color Spray.
The bottom line is, your party is more effective when it works as a whole than the sum of its parts would indicate. Let me give you an example from my recent game (granted we are 12th level so there's a bit of a difference here, but you'll get the idea). Party is attacked by two dragons (and managed to get surprised to boot as they were burrowing in sand). We survive the initial attacks and then get to act. Wizard casts Chains of Light on one dragon -- rendering it helpless....
This is great advice. I'm gonna ask the Oracle why is he carrying a Medium Armor+Shield when he's not going into the frontlines.
Then I will suggest that though his healing is useful and great, we're lacking in the damage department. This way I can ask if he can buff us, drop down some CC on the enemy or use consumables, this gives me access to:-Shield of Faith on Ninja
-Bless
-Murderous Command
-Hold Person (which he's taking)
-Tangle Bags
-Get a Dagger and Flank with the Ninja
-Aid Another Action, Get a Dagger a 10 AC is easy to hit for +2 AC/Hit
One other thing to consider suggesting to your melee guys. If they are having trouble hitting a particular critter, it might be worth it to forgo the Two Weapon attack and just attack with one weapon. Sure they don't get as many attacks, but they also get their full bonus then. Having extra attacks doesn't really benefit you if you can't hit the target. Obviously they should normally be fighting with both weapons (after all, why take the feats if you are not going to use them) but when then run into problems hitting (and not just because of poor die rolls) then getting that extra +2 on one attack is probably worth it over getting a second attack.
Okay, so everyone is TWFing, meaning they likely can't hit the broad side of a barn reliably yet. The oracle won't do anything but cast healing spells because if he does damage he's going to suffer a slap on the wrist for a feat progression that isn't going to be achievable until half way through the AP (which you probably won't reach anyway at this rate).
Okay... assuming you can't talk Oracle out of that stupid feat, and assuming you can't just sit in town cutting yourself like emos for him to heal you back up until you power level the feat for him, how about getting him to use some alchemical items?
Tanglefoot bags are incredibly useful and criminally underappreciated. Even if they don't glue the target to the floor, they take a penalty to their AC for the duration (the check applies ONLY to getting unstuck, everything else bad it does to you still applies).
There, now he's not causing damage, he's not casting non-healing spells, and he's still contributing something to the fight by helping the TWF'ers hit more often.
Okay, so everyone is TWFing, meaning they likely can't hit the broad side of a barn reliably yet. The oracle won't do anything but cast healing spells because if he does damage he's going to suffer a slap on the wrist for a feat progression that isn't going to be achievable until half way through the AP (which you probably won't reach anyway at this rate).
Okay... assuming you can't talk Oracle out of that stupid feat, and assuming you can't just sit in town cutting yourself like emos for him to heal you back up until you power level the feat for him, how about getting him to use some alchemical items?
Tanglefoot bags are incredibly useful and criminally underappreciated. Even if they don't glue the target to the floor, they take a penalty to their AC for the duration (the check applies ONLY to getting unstuck, everything else bad it does to you still applies).
There, now he's not causing damage, he's not casting non-healing spells, and he's still contributing something to the fight by helping the TWF'ers hit more often.
I'm gonna do that. I hope I can convince him to dish out the gold for that.
He's always talking about +2 CHA and Mithral Armor. I already told him Mithral armor is a waste of gold, but he says he has really high ACP, like -5 to Stealth and the such.
I'm trying to talk him out of it, it's not his job to be stealthy, or to not have ACP at all.
+2 CHA is nice, but unless he's using Save or Suck spells, it has no use early levels, and you're just dumping gold for something more useful.
If he keeps only healing, I'm gonna suggest a Wand of Bless, first round just Bless us and it always work.
His initiative is low, so Tangle Bag can be good against someone not engaged in melee, otherwise enemies will always be fighting Ninja/Slayer.
Personally I'm gonna suggest some of those items, even Smokestick, which could really benefit the Ninja.
I tried using some Alchemist Fire, but I didn't have any luck because there were engaged in melee.
Guess I'll have to make a list of "good to have scrolls" for the Oracle.
What the hell good is +2 Cha going to do him if he refuses to cast anything but healing spells?
Who cares about his ACP if he does nothing but cast healing spells?
I mean, seriously, use that mindset against him.
If he will do nothing but cast healing spells, then start pointing out how any loot he gets that doesn't make those healing spells better is a waste of resources.
Right now, he's a walking Wand of Cure X Wounds, nothing more. If he wants gear to do more, he's gotta actually DO MORE first to justify the expense.
You still haven't answered my question: Why does the oracle want Healer's Touch when he has already spend a discovery and two feats on a far superior method of healing, Channel Energy? That's like a barbarian taking Weapon Focus for his back-up dagger in case his greatsword gets disarmed, instead of taking Power Attack.
I still think that unless you can convince the three other players to actual do something useful in combat, you need to convince the GM to lower the difficulty level (at least for the early levels - TWF get's better, but starts out really weak; and full casters get exponentially stronger. Well, you do, cure spells actually get weaker).
Of course, you can also do the "training cats" approach and get a spray bottle of water. Every time the oracle uses a cure spell or the slayer does stupid stuff instead of flanking, you spray the player with water. Make sure not to hit the character sheet.
Or, if you want to be mean in character, take the optional will save on his (after combat) cure spells, and heal yourself with a wand of infernal healing when needed.
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One suggestion for the Ninja (other than flank, Flank, FLANK!) is to take the Offensive Defense rogue talent, it provide a scaling dodge bonus to AC anbd if he's flanking with Summons or the Slayer, he should be able to get it off almost every single round, it can really push his AC into ridiculous levels.
You still haven't answered my question: Why does the oracle want Healer's Touch when he has already spend a discovery and two feats on a far superior method of healing, Channel Energy? That's like a barbarian taking Weapon Focus for his back-up dagger in case his greatsword gets disarmed, instead of taking Power Attack.
He likes it? He saw it, thought it was OP because MAXIMIZED heals, and went for it.
I guess he took Channel because it heals everyone, and Selective Channel because otherwise he would heal the enemy.Maybe he's into healing? I don't know what his character concept it, besides healing.