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In the last game I played the ruling was that this domain power did not counter Black Tentacles, except for the difficult terrain effect.
Since the description says it counters magical effects as Freedom of Movement does, that just does not make sense.
It also has potential to get complicated, like how does it act vs a Slow spell, or Hold Person?
Black Tentacles grapples you and deals damage. Liberation Domain works as Freedom of Movement. Freedom of Movement specifically says all grapple checks against you fail. Really the only question would be "Should the difficult terrain be negated?" as difficult terrain isn't directly covered by FOM as grapple is.
The GM definitely ruled incorrectly.
What Rub-Eta said.
Grapple checks automatically fail.
Negates magic that usually impedes movement, such as web. Web is also an AOE spell the gives a grappled condition and causes difficult terrain. So negates the difficult terrain penalties.
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Correct, Freedom of Movement does allow you to ignore grapple checks and the like. Liberation does not grant a full Freedom of Movement however...
Liberation (Su): You have the ability to ignore impediments to your mobility. For a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level, you can move normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement, as if you were affected by freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
The bolded clause should not exist if you got the entire benefit of Freedom of Movement. Because of the restriction to magical effects that impede movement, you would be immune to: Magically caused difficult terrain and magics that reduce your movement speed (slow).
Conditions are the sticky subject in this case, as they are not inherintly magical. Magical effects typically impose the conditions (Hold Person)
Swimming upstream through a natural current would not be subject to Liberation, but would be for Freedom of Movement. As a creature Immune to Magic can be grappled by Black Tentacles, Ruling As Written, a creature would need Freedom of Movement to escape the grappled condition, not Liberation.
I agree that liberation is more limited than FOM. It only applies to magical effects, and it only applies to movement.
It doesn't help with underwater action, it doesn't help vs. grapple from another creature.
In the case of the black tentacles grapple it seems a bit more obscure. The difficult terrain and the grapple from black tentacles both do indeed impede movement. I think I would rule that the tentacles can grab and and damage you, but you can automatically escape the grapple, but that would be more just out of feeling that it is balanced than from anything I can point to strongly in the rules. I think equal cases can be made that it can grapple you normally and that it can't grapple you at all.
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I am the judge that made the ruling for this. I read the liberation domain as giving you a limited version of FoM (per the quote that Seton posted).
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.
I read that as allowing you to move freely as different than the effect that allows you to auto-succeed attempts to escape a grapple and that grapple checks automatically fail. I read the liberation domain as only providing the former.
That is why I made the ruling that I did.
It's a subordinate clause, modifying the previous one. If you take it by itself it is meaningless, so no, it doesn't indicate that you get all the benefits of FoM.
The fact that the 'as if you were affected by a freedom of movement spell' is a separate phrase separated by a comma, indicating that such effects aren't actually limited to the movement benefits but rather take on the full effects of the freedom of movement spell.
This is completely wrong.
If you see an ad saying something like "Stay at our hotel and we'll treat you right, as if you were a millionaire."
Don't quit your job after booking a reservation. You won't actually be a millionaire, you will just (presumably) be treated the same way a millionaire would be treated. The benefits of being a millionaire that don't relate to how the hotel treats you won't accrue to you.
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Seton -
I see this opening a can of worms.
If liberation only negates effect that prevent move actions, then -
Black Tentacles can grapple the victim, but cannot prevent the victim from just walking out of the area of effect.
Hold Person can paralyze, but the victim can still walk around at full movement rate.
Slow can give the victim the reflex save and AC penalties, but not stop movement at the full rate.
What I perceive your interpretation to be is liberation only allows MOVE ACTIONS to be done. I don't think that is what the description says. I claim movement is more than just move actions, it is casting spells via somatic gestures, bardic dancing for inspire courage, flinging vials of acid at opponents, etc.
As far as creatures immune to magic is concerned, that would apply to any spell that does not allow spell resistance, including Black Tentacles, so I am not sure how that applies. It would certainly apply to those inside a AMF, right?
What I see is FoM is referenced and the only restriction is Liberation only works to oppose magical effects.
I see any other interpretation to become extraordinarily complex, because it makes the whole effect dependent on an imprecise definition of 'movement'.
Thx, I was hoping to get input from the Pathfinder Design Team, as I think the posts here will not be persuasive enough. This judge was pretty adamant.
If you want my opinion it is this: the GM's decision is final, it doesn't matter what the rules say. It sounds like the GM has handled this in the right manner, they have thought about the issue, received input from the players and then decided how they want it to work in their own game. My advice is to accept their decision and move on.
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The fact that the 'as if you were affected by a freedom of movement spell' is a separate phrase separated by a comma, indicating that such effects aren't actually limited to the movement benefits but rather take on the full effects of the freedom of movement spell.This is completely wrong.
If you see an ad saying something like "Stay at our hotel and we'll treat you right, as if you were a millionaire."
Don't quit your job after booking a reservation. You won't actually be a millionaire, you will just (presumably) be treated the same way a millionaire would be treated. The benefits of being a millionaire that don't relate to how the hotel treats you won't accrue to you.
Dave - I don't see what this has to do with the discussion.
The Hotel will undoubtedly bow and scrape and cater to your every whim, and once you leave the hotel it stops. You then get a bill worthy of a millionaire.
The Liberation power will treat you in every way like you have FoM vs magical effects until you leave the situation where you need it.
The 'bill' for this is applied against the number of rounds the power allows.
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Thx, I was hoping to get input from the Pathfinder Design Team, as I think the posts here will not be persuasive enough. This judge was pretty adamant.If you want my opinion it is this: the GM's decision is final, it doesn't matter what the rules say. It sounds like the GM has handled this in the right manner, they have thought about the issue, received input from the players and then decided how they want it to work in their own game. My advice is to accept their decision and move on.
My character walked into the Black Tentacles thinking the Liberation Domain was protecting him. It has always worked that way and this new interpretation was sprung on me. My character would not have done that knowing how it turned out so I want to know what the rules are in order to be prepared for the next time. I don't want to play 20 questions with the judge in the next situation and drag down the game with table variation interpretations.
Are you saying that your ability had previously worked against black tentacles with that GM and then stopped working?
confused, are we talking about the ability at level one or that gained at 8? 1 does not stop grapples but 8 does. 8 dosnt stop movement hindrances but 1 does.
We are talking about the level 1 ability which is a personal effect. The level 8 ability is an aura that also protects your companions from grapples.
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Are you saying that your ability had previously worked against black tentacles with that GM and then stopped working?
No, I am not. I am saying I want to sit at a table where the rules are the same as any other table. Some table variation is expected, but the operation of this ability is, to me, very fundamental to the game.
Since it worked this way in 3.5 and PFS is supposed to be based upon 3.5, I expect it ought to work the same as the 3.5 Travel Domain, since the wording is virtually identical.
Are you saying that your ability had previously worked against black tentacles with that GM and then stopped working?
I think Jokem is referring to Pathfinder Society games, where you will play the same character with many different GMs.
Are you saying that your ability had previously worked against black tentacles with that GM and then stopped working?No, I am not. I am saying I want to sit at a table where the rules are the same as any other table. Some table variation is expected, but the operation of this ability is, to me, very fundamental to the game.
Since it worked this way in 3.5 and PFS is supposed to be based upon 3.5, I expect it ought to work the same as the 3.5 Travel Domain, since the wording is virtually identical.
What you are suggesting sounds good in theory, but is probably impossible in practice. I am not sure if you have ever been the GM before, if you haven't I can tell you from my own experience that it is hard to be self consistent let alone consistent with other tables.
Freedom of Movement is notoriously difficult to adjudicate, there are many situations where it is reasonable to rule either way on whether it is effective. So an ability that works like Freedom of Movement such as Liberation is bound to have alternate views as well. My advice is still to cut the GM some slack and go with their interpretation. You show you are willing to work with them and they will be more likely to rule in your favour next time.
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Are you saying that your ability had previously worked against black tentacles with that GM and then stopped working?I think Jokem is referring to Pathfinder Society games, where you will play the same character with many different GMs.
Correct, but also applicable to home games. At least to a certain extent.
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Are you saying that your ability had previously worked against black tentacles with that GM and then stopped working?No, I am not. I am saying I want to sit at a table where the rules are the same as any other table. Some table variation is expected, but the operation of this ability is, to me, very fundamental to the game.
Since it worked this way in 3.5 and PFS is supposed to be based upon 3.5, I expect it ought to work the same as the 3.5 Travel Domain, since the wording is virtually identical.
What you are suggesting sounds good in theory, but is probably impossible in practice. I am not sure if you have ever been the GM before, if you haven't I can tell you from my own experience that it is hard to be self consistent let alone consistent with other tables.
Freedom of Movement is notoriously difficult to adjudicate, there are many situations where it is reasonable to rule either way on whether it is effective. So an ability that works like Freedom of Movement such as Liberation is bound to have alternate views as well. My advice is still to cut the GM some slack and go with their interpretation. You show you are willing to work with them and they will be more likely to rule in your favour next time.
I already said I expect some table variation. There are cases where FoM is unclear, but the description of FoM specifically discusses Grapples, and Black Tentacles is a magical grapple effect.
So why not say Liberation works like FoM vs magical effects?Any other interpretation makes for complications.
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This might be a good question for an FAQ:
Does the Liberation power of the Liberation domain function exactly like the Freedom of Movement spell, or is it a limited version of the spell?
I've always ruled the Liberation power as acting as FoM for non-attacks. I consider the second and third sentences, on grappling and underwater movement, to be derivatives of the first sentence of the spell, not extraneous extra abilities.
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This might be a good question for an FAQ:
Does the Liberation power of the Liberation domain function exactly like the Freedom of Movement spell, or is it a limited version of the spell?
Gwen - It IS a limited version of the spell, in that Liberation only works vs magical effects. Beyond that is where things are coming into contention.
