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I recently posted to my new group her in Anchorage about Full Pre-Character Audits and described what I do in a game, here is what I said.
I like looking over characters once in awhile to make sure everything is kosher. In general I do my audit a little at a time, during a game I will ask “How do you do that?” for things that seem off and I will accept the players explanation if it adds all up, if not I will make a quick ruling and talk about it after the game with the player.
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I check to catch mistakes. I default to trusting others until given a reason not to. That 26 I'll mostly let slide, the 4th or 5th in a row and I might start craning my neck a little.
The problem with the yellow tengu is not so much trust and the mechanical edge, but that it just rubs the wrong way for many. Tengu are not yellow!
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I trust my local player base to be honest and to not consciously be cheating. I trust them to tell me the truth as they know it.
I do NOT trust most of them to be right. I do NOT trust most of them to have carefully read the book, FAQs, additional resources, posts, etc. I do NOT trust most of their math skills.
I'll only audit if something "feels off". Even then its almost always a quick : Could you please break down how you have an AC of 31?. Things feeling too low get checked as well as things feeling too high and are almost as common.
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So, generally, I do trust my players. When someone rolls a 5 and tells me their result is really high, I often ask how they got it so high (unless I'm at a really high tier, when it makes sense). Not only do I like to make sure they are doing things right, but I might learn some nifty tricks by doing that.
I also tend to ask people things like "what book is that from," when I'm told they are using something I've never of. I just can't keep track of every book, feat, spell, and trait out there. Sometimes I find they have not looked at additional resources and are using things prohibited. More often, I'm like "I have to remember that one!"
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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I trust players, but when it becomes a problem where people are having a bad time because someone is bending, abusing, breaking, or cheating, I find a way to make the table the fun. SOmetimes its just a word or two.
A 4th on a low table for example. Many people react ok to me saying, "they got this" to the higher level player.
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I like to trust players. I rarely look at character sheets. I only really question things when I'm not sure or I'm pretty sure they are wrong.
Something like this. I usually only ask when it is something new, or a number just feels strange.
Heck, last time that happened as with our local VC. And on his checking, he found he was, indeed, wrong, and had missed a point, so it was higher, not lower. Since I know I wind up with weird numbers, sometimes I just like to know how someone got there.
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When face to face, I'm fairly trusting. If something strikes me as off, I'll typically wait a session or two and observe first. Maybe take notes on the build and later recreate it to see just how exactly the player was achieving what they claimed. When GMing a home game, I like to have a copy of everyone's character sheet in advance so I can balance the campaign around what the players actually are capable of. A skills heavy low damage group isn't going to handle certain fights as easily as a party with even a couple high damage (or mid damage) characters.
However when GMing online via play by post, I've been burned too many times. Too many "I rolled with my own dice, those three 18's are totally legit" claims. Yeah, it's possible to roll 3d6 down the line and get three 18's, a 15, a 17, and an 8. It's more likely in my experience though that the person might be lying about rolling the dice. I'll also go over character sheets (even with point buy stats) to see if everything looks okay. If there's a startling high skill bonus at level 1 I'll see if I can figure out how they achieved it. Or I might be rather curious how your level 1 zero BAB character got a +8 to strike.
Then again, I can be just as critical of my own character builds. Yesterday during a PFS session I started eyeing my build in confusion at one point, and started wondering "am I using the right to-hit modifier with kinetic blade?" Up till now I'd only used kinetic blade to aid intimidate checks (visual effect for a skill assist). At which point I grabbed my PDF of occult adventurers, handed the printout of the requisite page to the GM, and had him audit me. Turned out that the last 3 attacks made I'd been screwing up by using my Dex mod instead of Str mod for kinetic blade to-hit.
He then during the audit asked where I was getting an extra +1 to-hit and how I was getting +8 damage with my ranged blasts. I couldn't answer at first, so again delved into the rules my character was using till I figured out where that extra +1 to-hit came from and exactly why my damage was +8.
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Off-topic musing:
Actually, I can think of one way to (legally) make a yellow tengu.
** spoiler omitted **
There's also mention that tengu dye their feathers so the mammals can tell them apart, so thats another possibility. Corvus dyes himself blue for the fancy andoran meetings
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I wonder, are there any scenarios or modules with a whimsical cursed object? In a homebrew serpent's skull game my sorcerer ended up looting a cursed dancing quarterstaff... the curse was that it permanently turned my sorcerer's skin (later scales) oompa loompa orange.
I also justified Kahel going from male to female (after noticing HL for some reason had switched genders on me after printing it out and playing a session) with an off camera thing in the dark archive where his superiors ordered him to put on a belt since they were having trouble identifying it's function. (or so they claimed) It was a girdle of sex change. Granted, Hero Lab changed my character's gender on me during the rebuild before playing my first session at level 2. But I ran with it, and worked that into my backstory.
Maybe someone could write a "oops, picked up a cursed weapon by accident while working in the main lodge" justification of their tengu being yellow
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I trust everyone I've played with and don't really bat an eye at their characters. I'm normally the one with the high powered characters and anytime I'm doing something ridiculous people generally go along with it assuming I can do it.
It isn't just myself though. My region's average character is pretty well optimized (to the point where I would say our region is abnormally so).
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Pathfinder is a massive system where it is obscenely easy to overlook some fine print, or not realize that your interpretation is not the widely accepted one. So the first, second, and third assumption is that anything fishy is just a misunderstanding. So ya, I trust my fellow players and GMs.
Really the worst I've seen is playing fast and loose with a few of the PFS specific rules; like yes you need to track your purchases, you can't just say you have about this much gold, or no the lvl 1 mount spell is not a combat spell and does not work like summon monster.
As a cooperative game, I don't think players have an incentive to cheat.
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Pathfinder is a massive system where it is obscenely easy to overlook some fine print, or not realize that your interpretation is not the widely accepted one. So the first, second, and third assumption is that anything fishy is just a misunderstanding. So ya, I trust my fellow players and GMs.
Really the worst I've seen is playing fast and loose with a few of the PFS specific rules; like yes you need to track your purchases, you can't just say you have about this much gold, or no the lvl 1 mount spell is not a combat spell and does not work like summon monster.
As a cooperative game, I don't think players have an incentive to cheat.
Have only encountered cheating from one source in PFS so far. But from 16 years of roleplaying (most of which was as gamemaster) I've encountered many who cheat. It's sad and annoying that some people feel the need to cheat in a cooperative storytelling session. But there's the occasional person who just can't follow the rules. They have to 'win', regardless of the fact that a roleplaying game isn't about winning but telling a story.
I don't really understand that mindset.
I'll be GMing at a convention next month. And I'll probably ask to look over people's character sheets before we start. But that's mostly so I'll have an idea of what they're actually capable of. Having what I think is a fighter or barbarian, for example, suddenly say "I have my scorpion familiar mix together a growth and bull's strength extract then inject it into me while I drink my mutagen" would not only be a huge surprise... But I'm still not sure if that's even a legitimate tactic.
I'd like to trust my players. And overall I try to unless they prove themselves untrustworthy. But I'd still like an idea of what I might be dealing with.
EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm not sure how an alchemist (single class) even has a familiar. Unless it's a discovery or archtype I'm unaware of.
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EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm not sure how an alchemist (single class) even has a familiar. Unless it's a discovery or archtype I'm unaware of.
I don't really know alchemists so well but when you mentioned fighter and described it I thought of it being an Eldritch Guardian Mutagen Warrior Fighter. Familiars and Mutagens for everyone!
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I'm generally trusting of people, but certain behaviors raise red flags quick with me:
And sometimes you just encounter "that person". I've traveled a lot, and I can think of several people I've met that all exuded the same aura of "trying it". Usually it's one older gamer with a strong personality telling newer gamers "how to do things". When I travel, I don't generally stick my neck out as a rules guy. I'll sit back and observe how other areas handle things. But some games I've been to were way off base, and it was usually because one person had been incorrectly running the show for a while.
Oh, and "RAW" people: Players who know the intent behind a game mechanic but abuse it anyways because of an overly literal parsing of the text. This category I've encountered less in person and more online, but I know of one repeat offender in my local area, too.
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I trust my local player base to be honest and to not consciously be cheating. I trust them to tell me the truth as they know it.
I do NOT trust most of them to be right. I do NOT trust most of them to have carefully read the book, FAQs, additional resources, posts, etc. I do NOT trust most of their math skills.
+1
I´ve found many players who read the rules the more favorable way to them. 99% of them are doing this unconscously and is no a problem when you tell them.
Also I found several GMs who have been playing the last decades and are applying the rules as they remember, sometimes to detriment of the players, sometimes to the detriment of their own characters.
Those are innocent mistakes, but the rules lawyer in me asks to search and correct them.
About the audits I try to audit always new player characters. It helps to locate mistakes and help them a little; "you know a sling is free and has no weight? You should always carry one ranged weapon, just in case".
The usual players are checked when I find something extrange to me. It can me a mistake or it can be an opportunity to learn a little about other classes, feats, etc.
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Tumor familiar discovery.
Pretty sure that's not what he was using. At level 2 (I think) he claimed he got an arcane style familiar, and picked scorpion cause he said it can mix his extracts for him then use it's stinger to inject said extracts into him. Then again I'm also fairly sure he had been lying to the GM about his capabilities. I mean, reading through the class a bit ago I saw nothing about mixing two extracts together on the fly. Combining them (at a higher level extract slot) when you prepare extracts, yes. But not combining two already prepared extracts to use at once.
Also pretty sure his discoveries at the time were tangle bomb, precise bomb, and feral mutagen.
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Also I found several GMs who have been playing the last decades and are applying the rules as they remember, sometimes to detriment of the players, sometimes to the detriment of their own characters.Those are innocent mistakes, but the rules lawyer in me asks to search and correct them.
I've ran into this multiple times. And it's always some little things that are subtly different between 3.5 and Pathfinder. Such as how paladins in Pathfinder now use charisma for their casting stat instead of wisdom. Or slight changes such as Mage Armor now having range of Touch instead of Self. You know, little things which can trip you up.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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The dungeon itself also has a...cosmetic effect. My nagaji became red, all shiny and chrom(atic).There's definitely a purple human fighter and electric blue Riddywhipple in the group I run through ES.
I never found a use for my Emerald Elixir, but if I ever get a ratfolk boon, I'm going to use it to try and make a yellow ratfolk, possibly a stormborn sorcerer. (Or an investigator, looking at recent video game announcements...)
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I have a poor memory, and so I like to look over sheets at the beginning if there's time - mostly so I can remind myself how some of the more esoteric stuff works. When something "feels" off in the game, I'll ask. In general, I trust the PCs to know their character, and try to use it as a way to learn rules that I probably don't know well. I learned most of the ACG classes this way, frankly...
Unfortunately, I have encountered many examples of overt cheating in our area (still a very small percentage of players, but it got to the point where we uninvited a player from all venues based on repetitive behavior). Mostly it has been dice-related; most character errors are honest mistakes, but we have also seen lots of examples of people stretching grey areas to the breaking point. It even got to a point where certain players would attempt to bully new GMs into accepting their interpretation of the rules. These experiences, plus once being in charge of recruiting GMs, means I tend to side with the GM in these discussions when they come up.
I do find that I am much more lenient in person than I am on the forums, but this is intentional. I've said many times, you don't make rules for the reasonable people, you make them to prevent unreasonable people from destroying the game. I can tell at a table if someone is being reasonable, and I can handle things appropriately.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Tumor familiar discovery.
Add poisoners gloves, and an improved tumor familiar with hands and a bab of 6+ and you could do what he described.
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I'll agree with Derek that most players are honest. It's just the cheaters are the ones who stick out in your mind the most. Then again there's some people who are legitimately horrible at basic math. I use to game with someone who absolutely couldn't do basic addition and subtraction. Whoever was GM would always have to go over his character build to double check the math. Sometimes he'd get too low of a number. Sometimes he'd get too high of a number. Only rarely would he get the right total.
I personally was never sure how he'd come up with 2+3+1=4, but it wouldn't have surprised me if he came up with the square root of pi being an aardvark.
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I tend to err on the side of caution when doing my calculations. Generally this results in either the table or the GM asking 'did you include *bonus* or *bonus* or *bonus*' and when my response is "Yes, but I'm also fighting defensively with two weapons and a natural secondary attack on a full-attack action" that tends to quiet the discussion.
Sometimes people DON'T have optimal power-builds, and their numbers will seem low.
Other times, they'll have found the 'magic BB' solution and their numbers are insane.
Once again, a matter of trust...
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I can speak to the infamous yellow tengu. A player down in Iowa wanted to play one, and was adamant that it had to be naturally colored. No paint, dyes, prestidigitation or disguise self effects. He needed a naturally yellow bird-humanoid.
Just crack some jokes about whether or not he's a natural blonde and get on with killing some orcs.
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I definitely trust my players. I usually will only question if something seems "off," and then I usually phrase it like "Nice! How'd you get that attack bonus?"
I would be a liar if I said there wasn't some nepotism involved in the process. I am more likely to ask someone if I think there may be more of a problem. For example:
- Players known to be not as proficient with the rules (not a bad thing! I just want it to be correct!)
- Newbies who may not know the rules fully yet (in which case I'll explain all the rules with it so they understand where I'm coming from - my intent here is teach, not punish)
- Problem players known to cause issues
- I'm in a new area and am not familiar with any of the characters (for the most part, it's not as much cheating as it is whether they have built a correct character)
But 90% of the players I GM for - I trust.
That being said, I do look at dice and spot check results. It's very rare, though, that I have an issue, which is why I trust them so much.
My knee jerk reaction is to rule for the player if I feel it is reasonable, although I do like to audit the process to make sure the player is going through the right logic and thinking (so they don't have problems at other tables in the future).